Do raids need easy/normal/hard difficulty mode? [merged]

[Brynioch.1873]

@vesica tempestas.1563 said:

@zealex.9410 said:

@vesica tempestas.1563 said:Its clear that for whatever reason instances take a long time to develop, i.e 5 man/10 man/bigger. You can see that every single AAA mmorpg out there puts out instanced content at a slow rate, and having difficulty levels has no bearing on this (e.g WOW puts out raids faster now with difficulty levels than it did at its peak without) So the question 'how can you speed up instanced content', can only really be answered by a developer who works on and understands the issues with instanced content, and it must be fundamental as the problem is consistent across all games. There is a possibility that high tuning of instanced content is an additional expensive overhead, but I get some players still like this style of gameplay, so fair enough.

Wow's peak was wotlk and it had 10-25mam normal and heroid mode.

yup wotlk is exactly when they introduced difficulty levels and the raiding scene exploded. Prior to that you had the last raid from tbc, sunwell plateau, which funnily enough has the exact same issues as you see in GW2 (and was one of the triggers for the tiered difficulties) I can remember raiding sunwell, and while it was fun that we were part of an 'exclusive' group that accessed the final boss, the vast majority of players did not, and that was a waste of resources that blizzard corrected going forward. At the same time the same type of players complained about it, same complaints as you see now, disingenuous then as it is now, people only thinking about themselves and the 'prestige' they got from the kills, not the game as a whole.

So you are saying that because a raid in a gear driven game that required BiS equipment for the most part as you could farm the previous raid for over 6 months had the same issues as a raid in a game where BiS equipment is easy to get and never changed for Power classes in the last 4 years?Raids in WoW are also a major part in the story, not so much in GW2. Raids are way less frequent and not a major content source as in WoW.

[STIHL.2489]

@Miellyn.6847 said:

@vesica tempestas.1563 said:

@zealex.9410 said:

@vesica tempestas.1563 said:Its clear that for whatever reason instances take a long time to develop, i.e 5 man/10 man/bigger. You can see that every single AAA mmorpg out there puts out instanced content at a slow rate, and having difficulty levels has no bearing on this (e.g WOW puts out raids faster now with difficulty levels than it did at its peak without) So the question 'how can you speed up instanced content', can only really be answered by a developer who works on and understands the issues with instanced content, and it must be fundamental as the problem is consistent across all games. There is a possibility that high tuning of instanced content is an additional expensive overhead, but I get some players still like this style of gameplay, so fair enough.

Wow's peak was wotlk and it had 10-25mam normal and heroid mode.

yup wotlk is exactly when they introduced difficulty levels and the raiding scene exploded. Prior to that you had the last raid from tbc, sunwell plateau, which funnily enough has the exact same issues as you see in GW2 (and was one of the triggers for the tiered difficulties) I can remember raiding sunwell, and while it was fun that we were part of an 'exclusive' group that accessed the final boss, the vast majority of players did not, and that was a waste of resources that blizzard corrected going forward. At the same time the same type of players complained about it, same complaints as you see now, disingenuous then as it is now, people only thinking about themselves and the 'prestige' they got from the kills, not the game as a whole.

So you are saying that because a raid in a gear driven game that required BiS equipment for the most part as you could farm the previous raid for over 6 months had the same issues as a raid in a game where BiS equipment is easy to get and never changed for Power classes in the last 4 years?Raids in WoW are also a major part in the story, not so much in GW2. Raids are way less frequent and not a major content source as in WoW.

This just validates the objections many had that they have no real good reason to exist in a game like GW2. But if Anet is going to put them in.. they may as well do it right.

[Brynioch.1873]

@STIHL.2489 said:

@Miellyn.6847 said:

@vesica tempestas.1563 said:

@zealex.9410 said:

@vesica tempestas.1563 said:Its clear that for whatever reason instances take a long time to develop, i.e 5 man/10 man/bigger. You can see that every single AAA mmorpg out there puts out instanced content at a slow rate, and having difficulty levels has no bearing on this (e.g WOW puts out raids faster now with difficulty levels than it did at its peak without) So the question 'how can you speed up instanced content', can only really be answered by a developer who works on and understands the issues with instanced content, and it must be fundamental as the problem is consistent across all games. There is a possibility that high tuning of instanced content is an additional expensive overhead, but I get some players still like this style of gameplay, so fair enough.

Wow's peak was wotlk and it had 10-25mam normal and heroid mode.

yup wotlk is exactly when they introduced difficulty levels and the raiding scene exploded. Prior to that you had the last raid from tbc, sunwell plateau, which funnily enough has the exact same issues as you see in GW2 (and was one of the triggers for the tiered difficulties) I can remember raiding sunwell, and while it was fun that we were part of an 'exclusive' group that accessed the final boss, the vast majority of players did not, and that was a waste of resources that blizzard corrected going forward. At the same time the same type of players complained about it, same complaints as you see now, disingenuous then as it is now, people only thinking about themselves and the 'prestige' they got from the kills, not the game as a whole.

So you are saying that because a raid in a gear driven game that required BiS equipment for the most part as you could farm the previous raid for over 6 months had the same issues as a raid in a game where BiS equipment is easy to get and never changed for Power classes in the last 4 years?Raids in WoW are also a major part in the story, not so much in GW2. Raids are way less frequent and not a major content source as in WoW.

This just validates the objections many had that they have no real good reason to exist in a game like GW2. But if Anet is going to put them in.. they may as well do it right.

There is a very good reason they should exist in GW2. Challenging group content. Something the game was lacking.Raids do not need gear progression to exist.

[zealex.9410]

@Miellyn.6847 said:

@vesica tempestas.1563 said:

@zealex.9410 said:

@vesica tempestas.1563 said:Its clear that for whatever reason instances take a long time to develop, i.e 5 man/10 man/bigger. You can see that every single AAA mmorpg out there puts out instanced content at a slow rate, and having difficulty levels has no bearing on this (e.g WOW puts out raids faster now with difficulty levels than it did at its peak without) So the question 'how can you speed up instanced content', can only really be answered by a developer who works on and understands the issues with instanced content, and it must be fundamental as the problem is consistent across all games. There is a possibility that high tuning of instanced content is an additional expensive overhead, but I get some players still like this style of gameplay, so fair enough.

Wow's peak was wotlk and it had 10-25mam normal and heroid mode.

yup wotlk is exactly when they introduced difficulty levels and the raiding scene exploded. Prior to that you had the last raid from tbc, sunwell plateau, which funnily enough has the exact same issues as you see in GW2 (and was one of the triggers for the tiered difficulties) I can remember raiding sunwell, and while it was fun that we were part of an 'exclusive' group that accessed the final boss, the vast majority of players did not, and that was a waste of resources that blizzard corrected going forward. At the same time the same type of players complained about it, same complaints as you see now, disingenuous then as it is now, people only thinking about themselves and the 'prestige' they got from the kills, not the game as a whole.

So you are saying that because a raid in a gear driven game that required BiS equipment for the most part as you could farm the previous raid for over 6 months had the same issues as a raid in a game where BiS equipment is easy to get and never changed for Power classes in the last 4 years?Raids in WoW are also a major part in the story, not so much in GW2. Raids are way less frequent and not a major content source as in WoW.

Raids are the game in wow. Thats not the case in gw2. Also in wow u get strictly weaker rewards the lower you go down the difficulty drain.

[zealex.9410]

@STIHL.2489 said:

@Miellyn.6847 said:

@vesica tempestas.1563 said:

@zealex.9410 said:

@vesica tempestas.1563 said:Its clear that for whatever reason instances take a long time to develop, i.e 5 man/10 man/bigger. You can see that every single AAA mmorpg out there puts out instanced content at a slow rate, and having difficulty levels has no bearing on this (e.g WOW puts out raids faster now with difficulty levels than it did at its peak without) So the question 'how can you speed up instanced content', can only really be answered by a developer who works on and understands the issues with instanced content, and it must be fundamental as the problem is consistent across all games. There is a possibility that high tuning of instanced content is an additional expensive overhead, but I get some players still like this style of gameplay, so fair enough.

Wow's peak was wotlk and it had 10-25mam normal and heroid mode.

yup wotlk is exactly when they introduced difficulty levels and the raiding scene exploded. Prior to that you had the last raid from tbc, sunwell plateau, which funnily enough has the exact same issues as you see in GW2 (and was one of the triggers for the tiered difficulties) I can remember raiding sunwell, and while it was fun that we were part of an 'exclusive' group that accessed the final boss, the vast majority of players did not, and that was a waste of resources that blizzard corrected going forward. At the same time the same type of players complained about it, same complaints as you see now, disingenuous then as it is now, people only thinking about themselves and the 'prestige' they got from the kills, not the game as a whole.

So you are saying that because a raid in a gear driven game that required BiS equipment for the most part as you could farm the previous raid for over 6 months had the same issues as a raid in a game where BiS equipment is easy to get and never changed for Power classes in the last 4 years?Raids in WoW are also a major part in the story, not so much in GW2. Raids are way less frequent and not a major content source as in WoW.

This just validates the objections many had that they have no real good reason to exist in a game like GW2. But if Anet is going to put them in.. they may as well do it right.

No this just shows that gw2 wants abit of everything without becoming wow. U say here that they should turn the game to wow...

[nia.4725]

@"Necronaut.6028" said:As a returning player who just came back a few months ago, I'd like to chime in. I got bored of GW2 in 2012 and decided to quit, I then gave the game another chance again six years later. With the release of two xpacs, I'm having lots of fun. I would be more inclined to venture into the world of GW2 raiding if it had an easy/normal mode. One of the things that really turned me off to fractals six years ago was that they were confusing/difficult to understand, though I'm much better at them today. I don't play games to get frustrated or overly confused, but I love orchestrated events with real people that are hands on, but not too difficult to master. World bosses, bounty hunting, ect. I love watching big groups of players smash a boss like a pinata, without the risk of frequent wipes, arguments, or drama.

I avoid raids & such because I don't feel like partaking in the whole "raid leader (x) authoritarian scrutiny" shtick anymore, and if I wanted to learn a complicated and lengthy rotation, I would do so outside of the game (learning to play the piano, or a guitar). Hardcore gaming for me had its heyday in 2003-2008, yet it doesn't really fit a broad audience in today's entirely entertainment saturated world. My attitude for the most part is much more "couch gamer" relaxation centered now a days, so I'd always be willing to give entertainment avenues a chance which support that: I.E. easy/normal raids.

The thing is that you won't be able to kill a raid boss without a proper rotation. Raid bosses can't be killed pressing whatever buttons. Try to go to a raid boss with 10 people who won't do a rotation: you'll fail miserably. And I can assure you that once you've done your rotation many times you have it so internalized that you don't think about it -you just execute it. And then raids are very chill, if you have a decent group.

Raids are end-game content, they're supposed to be the most challenging content ingame. That means they can't be cheesed, they are supposed to be difficult. They are supposed to require an special effort in order to beat them. Not just going there with whatever and doing whatever. If you want to kill the boss you need to play as good as you can. If you aren't willing to do that, I'm afraid raids are not for you.

Every game mode has its own things and "effort requirements". Just as you can't go to WvW with greens and whatever stats if you want to succeed, you can't go to raids without a decent rotation. A lot of raid bosses are already easy/normal. You don't even need a rotation to do W3 Escort, maybe not even W2 Trio.

I'm not trying to be rude or aggressive here, just trying to show my point: raids are supposed to be challenging and require an effort, It's part of their essence, it shouldn't be removed of them or else they will stop being what they are supposed to be -challenging, end-game content.

[Ohoni.6057]

@nia.4725 said:The thing is that you won't be able to kill a raid boss without a proper rotation. Raid bosses can't be killed pressing whatever buttons. Try to go to a raid boss with 10 people who won't do a rotation: you'll fail miserably. And I can assure you that once you've done your rotation many times you have it so internalized that you don't think about it -you just execute it. And then raids are very chill, if you have a decent group.

Raids are end-game content, they're supposed to be the most challenging content ingame. That means they can't be cheesed, they are supposed to be difficult. They are supposed to require an special effort in order to beat them. Not just going there with whatever and doing whatever. If you want to kill the boss you need to play as good as you can. If you aren't willing to do that, I'm afraid raids are not for you.

Exactly! See, nobody else seems to get it, that is exactly why an easy mode is needed, because the current version alone can't possibly cut it for most players.

[nia.4725]

@Ohoni.6057 said:

@nia.4725 said:The thing is that you won't be able to kill a raid boss without a proper rotation. Raid bosses can't be killed pressing whatever buttons. Try to go to a raid boss with 10 people who won't do a rotation: you'll fail miserably. And I can assure you that once you've done your rotation many times you have it so internalized that you don't think about it -you just execute it. And then raids are very chill, if you have a decent group.

Raids are end-game content, they're supposed to be the most challenging content ingame. That means they can't be cheesed, they are supposed to be difficult. They are supposed to require an special effort in order to beat them. Not just going there with whatever and doing whatever. If you want to kill the boss you need to play as good as you can. If you aren't willing to do that, I'm afraid raids are not for you.

Exactly! See, nobody else seems to get it, that is

exactly

why an easy mode is needed, because the current version alone can't possibly cut it for most players.

Do you think raiders have been born with the skill required to raid?

No, we were casual mortals with no idea of what a rotation is. And yet we did it! So why can't everyone else? It's just an effort. Do the effort and you'll be able to raid. You don't need an easy mode, just do a friggin effort.

I started raiding a year ago and you know that? I was a terrible player, I died 3958903579 times trying to play tempest, my dps was absolute crap and I struggled trying to do my rotation. But, wow, I actually tried, and kept trying, and even though I can't play everything and I'm fairly bad at some classes, I full clear and I am able to play a lot of roles and professions. Ifull clear every week.

If I didn't need an easy mode, why do you? Believe in yourself and try. I swear, I am not a very skilled player, I'm nowhere near a pro, I just persevered.

[Ohoni.6057]

@"nia.4725" said:Do you think raiders have been born with the skill required to raid?

Unlikely, but I think they were probably born with the interest to pursue those skills, or at least at some point they acquired it. I think that raiders see a value of some sort in spending hours upon hours in "training runs," accomplishing nothing more than honing their understanding of the encounter and their skills. It's fine if they feel this way, so long as they understand that not everyone does, or should. That it in no way makes them better than their fellow gamers for enjoying this sort of thing, or their fellow gamers any worse for not wanting to do any of that.

No, we were casual mortals with no idea of what a rotation is. And yet we did it! So why can't everyone else?

I think that most could, they just don't want to. And they shouldn't have to.

You don't need an easy mode, just do a friggin effort.

I could, but that wouldn't make me happy, so instead I pursue an easy mode, which would make me happy. Why would I pursue something that wouldn't make me happy?

I started raiding a year ago and you know that? I was a terrible player, I died 3958903579 times trying to play tempest, my dps was absolute crap and I struggled trying to do my rotation. But, wow, I actually tried, and kept trying, and even though I can't play everything and I'm fairly bad at some classes, I full clear and I am able to play a lot of roles and professions. Ifull clear every week.

As John Oliver would say, "cool."

If I didn't need an easy mode, why do you?

Different wiring, I imagine. You can die 3958903579 trying to complete a boss, eventually beat it, and eventually feel pleased with the sum of the time you spent in that effort. I know that I'm not wired like that, if I spent even a fraction as long at the task, then even if the eventual result was that I had the raid on farm and could just roll in and solo the joint, that wouldn't make me happy. I would feel hollow, I would feel that my efforts in getting to that point was a waste of my time and effort. I cannot feel good about struggling to improve in a game.

I have fun beating encounters, and then beating them again, and again, even better each time, until I feel really good at it. But I want to beat it that first time, or at least the second. I have no interest in losing encounters more than a couple of times, and making significant improvement on each attempt.

We are different people, and that doesn't become a problem until you start assuming that we are the same, and that what works for you should work equally well for me.

[nia.4725]

@Ohoni.6057 said:

@"nia.4725" said:Do you think raiders have been born with the skill required to raid?

Unlikely, but I think they were probably born with the interest to

pursue

those skills, or at least at some point they acquired it. I think that raiders see a

value

of some sort in spending hours upon hours in "training runs," accomplishing nothing more than honing their understanding of the encounter and their skills. It's fine if they feel this way, so long as they understand that not everyone does, or

should.

That it in no way makes them better than their fellow gamers for enjoying this sort of thing, or their fellow gamers any worse for not wanting to do any of that.

No, we were casual mortals with no idea of what a rotation is. And yet we did it! So why can't everyone else?

I think that most could, they just don't want to. And they shouldn't have to.

You don't need an easy mode, just do a friggin effort.

I

could,

but that wouldn't make me happy, so instead I pursue an easy mode, which

would

make me happy. Why would I pursue something that wouldn't make me happy?

I started raiding a year ago and you know that? I was a terrible player, I died 3958903579 times trying to play tempest, my dps was absolute crap and I struggled trying to do my rotation. But, wow, I actually tried, and kept trying, and even though I can't play everything and I'm fairly bad at some classes, I full clear and I am able to play a lot of roles and professions. Ifull clear every week.

As John Oliver would say, "cool."

If I didn't need an easy mode, why do you?

Different wiring, I imagine. You can die 3958903579 trying to complete a boss, eventually beat it, and eventually feel

pleased

with the sum of the time you spent in that effort. I know that I'm not wired like that, if I spent even a fraction as long at the task, then even if the eventual result was that I had the raid on farm and could just roll in and solo the joint, that wouldn't make me happy. I would feel hollow, I would feel that my efforts in getting to that point was a waste of my time and effort. I cannot feel good about struggling to improve in a game.

I have fun

beating

encounters, and then beating them again, and again, even better each time, until I feel

really

good at it. But I want to

beat

it that first time, or at least the second. I have no interest in losing encounters more than a couple of times, and making

significant

improvement on

each

attempt.

We are different people, and that doesn't become a problem until you start assuming that we are the same, and that what works for you should work equally well for me.

So you're telling me that you're not interested in the effort required to do raids.

Then why do you want to raid?

If you aren't willing to improve enough to do something, just don't do it. It's very simple. Go do dungeons, fractals or whatever you enjoy. Your arguments make no sense. "I am not interested at all in making an effort to play decently enough to kill a boss but I still want to kill the boss so please, anet-chan, please cheese it so I can kill the boss by doing nothing".

[Ohoni.6057]

@"nia.4725" said:So you're telling me that you're not interested in the effort required to do raids.

In their current form, no doubt.

Then why do you want to raid?

Because if they are easier, if they are of a difficulty level where I could roll in on my first attempt, and clear it as easily as you can clear it today, then that I would enjoy. I could just never enjoy the parts between here and there in the current design, and taking part in those portions would ruin the result for me. It's like a chocolate cake, I like chocolate cake, but if someone said "you can have a chocolate cake, but first, you'll have to eat this entire pile of moldy leaves, only then will you be allowed to eat that chocolate cake." Well in that case, not only would I not enjoy eating the leaves, but it would probably put me off eating the cake at the end too, so I'd prefer to skip the whole mess. I'd still like to eat just the chocolate cake though, if that could be made available.

If you aren't willing to improve enough to do something, just don't do it. It's very simple. Go do dungeons, fractals or whatever you enjoy. Your arguments make no sense. "I am not interested at all in making an effort to play decently enough to kill a boss but I still want to kill the boss so please, anet-chan, please cheese it so I can kill the boss by doing nothing".

But I would enjoy the raids if they were easier. So I want that experience to be an option. I don't enjoy them the way you enjoy them, so your mode is not for me, but I would enjoy them the way I enjoy them, so I'd like that option to be available. Also, I definitely want to get some Envoy armor, and not only are raids the only current place to earn them, but any suggestion that they be made available elsewhere seems to be met with screams of bloody murder from the raiding community, so there doesn't seem to be a lot of wiggle room there.

[Astralporing.1957]

@nia.4725 said:No, we were casual mortals with no idea of what a rotation is. And yet we did it! So why can't everyone else? It's just an effort. Do the effort and you'll be able to raid.The same amount of effort will bring different results in different people. Yes, some people do have inborn advantages over others. Usain Bolt is also "just a normal mortal", you know.

And that's before we even start to consider that the same amount of effort will bring different amount of fun for different people.

So, no, not everyone can achieve the same results as you do. And of those that can, most wouldn't want to. Because for most people that isn't fun.

@nia.4725 said:If I didn't need an easy mode, why do you? Believe in yourself and try. I swear, I am not a very skilled player, I'm nowhere near a pro, I just persevered.But would that be fun? That is the main reason for easy mode - most people simply do not like the playstyle and requirements that are attached to normal mode raids. It's not a matter of "believing in yourself". It's not wanting to have a second work outside of work.

@nia.4725 said:Then why do you want to raid?Obviously for reasons different than challenge. But then even most of the current raiders aren't really interested in challenge. For me too big of a difficulty detracts from the enjoyment (by the way, i have the same feeling about some of the fractals currently).

[nia.4725]

@Astralporing.1957 said:

@"nia.4725" said:No, we were casual mortals with no idea of what a rotation is. And yet we did it! So why can't everyone else? It's just an effort. Do the effort and you'll be able to raid.The same amount of effort will bring different results in different people. Yes, some people do have inborn advantages over others. Usain Bolt is also "just a normal mortal", you know.

And that's before we even start to consider that the same amount of effort will bring different amount of

fun

for different people.

So, no, not everyone can achieve the same results as you do. And of those that can, most wouldn't want to. Because for most people that isn't fun.

@"nia.4725" said:If I didn't need an easy mode, why do you? Believe in yourself and try. I swear, I am not a very skilled player, I'm nowhere near a pro, I just persevered.But would that be fun?

That

is the main reason for easy mode - most people simply do not like the playstyle and requirements that are attached to normal mode raids. It's not a matter of "believing in yourself". It's not wanting to have a second work outside of work.

@"nia.4725" said:Then why do you want to raid?Obviously for reasons different than challenge. But then even most of the current raiders aren't really interested in challenge. For me too big of a difficulty detracts from the enjoyment (by the way, i have the same feeling about some of the fractals currently).

Ofc it isn't fun to wipe several times until you are able to play decently. But it's something you have to do if you want to raid. It's like, I want to play the guitar, but to be able to play the guitar I must try and try and try and learn. If I don't learn to play the guitar, I can't play the guitar. It wouldn't make sense to expect to be able to play the guitar without actually learning how to do it. Same with raids.

If I said that is because I don't have any inborn advantage, I am not a naturally skilled player or anything. I don't even have the motivation needed to practice regularly. I last around 5 minutes in the practice robot because I get discouraged so easily. If I know how to play chrono, druid and whatever in raids it's because I've gone to the boss and beat them 39583957935 weeks. In the end you get good, even without practicing a lot. I, too, have my enjoyment killed when a thing is too difficult -but raids are not like that.Your arguments are "incorrect" arguments for me because I know it's not true that raiders are like that. They're nothing special, we don't have anything different from any other player. You could say that about "pro" players, those who speedrun and get accepted in hardcore raid guilds like SC or US or qT, but not about normal raiders.

The thing is that "challenge" is an inherent characteristic of raids. It's part of what they are, it's what they are meant to be, it's why they were made. Raids were made because they wanted a challenging content. And even then, raids in GW2 aren't that challenging. You can go to the easy raid bosses like Mursaat, Escort, Trio, Cairn until you get a good idea of your class and feel more prepared to do the most challenging ones. You're not interested in challenge? Then don't play challenging content. But don't ask nor expect challenging content to not be challenging anymore.

[Ohoni.6057]

@"nia.4725" said:Ofc it isn't fun to wipe several times until you are able to play decently. But it's something you have to do if you want to raid. It's like, I want to play the guitar, but to be able to play the guitar I must try and try and try and learn. If I don't learn to play the guitar, I can't play the guitar. It wouldn't make sense to expect to be able to play the guitar without actually learning how to do it. Same with raids.

But if it were possible to make a guitar that people could play as soon as they pick it up, then wouldn't that be good too? I don;t expect to become great at the existing raids overnight, I just want a version of them where I don't have to be.

Your arguments are "incorrect" arguments for me because I know it's not true that raiders are like that. They're nothing special, we don't have anything different from any other player.

If that were true then why don't the other 75%+ players raid? There's clearly some difference between those that raid and those who don't. It's not that they're in any way "better," obviously, they just enjoy a different sort of gaming experience, and that's ok, so long as you don't make it out to be a one-size-fits all situation.

The thing is that "challenge" is an inherent characteristic of raids. It's part of what they are, it's what they are meant to be, it's why they were made.

The current version, yeah.

And that current version should continue to be available for those that like that sort of thing.

But for those that don't, there should be an alternative.

[nia.4725]

@Ohoni.6057 said:

@"nia.4725" said:Ofc it isn't fun to wipe several times until you are able to play decently. But it's something you have to do if you want to raid. It's like, I want to play the guitar, but to be able to play the guitar I must try and try and try and learn. If I don't learn to play the guitar, I can't play the guitar. It wouldn't make sense to expect to be able to play the guitar without actually learning how to do it. Same with raids.

But if it were possible to make a guitar that people could play as soon as they pick it up, then wouldn't that be good too? I don;t expect to become great at the existing raids overnight, I just want a version of them where I don't

have to be.

Your arguments are "incorrect" arguments for me because I know it's not true that raiders are like that. They're nothing special, we don't have anything different from any other player.

If that were true then why don't the other 75%+ players raid? There's clearly some difference between those that raid and those who don't. It's not that they're in any way "better," obviously, they just enjoy a different sort of gaming experience, and that's ok, so long as you don't make it out to be a one-size-fits all situation.

The thing is that "challenge" is an inherent characteristic of raids. It's part of what they are, it's what they are meant to be, it's why they were made.

The current version, yeah.

And that current version should continue to be available for those that like that sort of thing.

But for those that don't, there should be an alternative.

But have you actually tried raiding? Are you saying this because you have joined raids and, after having a raiding experience, you have come to that conclusion?

If that's the case, okay. But I get the feeling that you don't have a real view of how raids actually are. There's no way to "play the guitar as soon as you pick it up". You will never be able to raid as soon as you get to the boss. Because even if they cheese it, you will still have some HP to beat and some mechanics to do. If they remove mechanics, you will never learn the boss. And if they don't remove them, you will still need some time to learn them.

I'll give you an example. Let's say, Vale Guardian. Vale Guardian spawns regularly some blue circles that "explode" around 5 seconds after they appear. If you are standing on them when they explode you get teleported to a random location in the arena; a location that, possibly, could damage you. Let's say that anet makes an easy version of Vale Guardian. There are several options on how to cheese blues.

a) Blues don't exist.In this case you won't learn the mechanic. And when you face the real Vale Guardian you'll fail at the mechanic. So, in the end, is always the same: you still will need some time to learn the mechanic.

b) Blues spawn, but do nothing to you.In that case, you won't try to dodge them. Why dodge them if they do nothing? You could say "I will stry try to dodge them because I know what they do in the real VG", but a lot of people would end up forgetting sometimes that they have to dodge. I don't think it would be a reliable way of learning.

c) Blues spawn, but don't teleport you -they just damage you.In this case people could think they can take the damage -having something like a druid healing them so that they don't have to dodge.

d) Blues spawn and teleport you, but you don't take damage.I guess in this case you could learn something... I guess. But you would still need time lo learn when to dodge-

In the end you wouldn't learn the real thing. And you would ALWAYS need some time to learn.

This is what I'm trying to say right now. You will ALWAYS need time. You will NEVER be able to do it as soon as you go to the boss. But this is the same as any other game mode.

[Ohoni.6057]

@"nia.4725" said:But have you actually tried raiding? Are you saying this because you have joined raids and, after having a raiding experience, you have come to that conclusion?

I have tried them, and I know enough to add that to my decades of personal experience to know that they are not for me in their current form. I know that the "many hours of training runs" that raiders speak of in near-ecstasy just don't appeal to me in the least.

You will never be able to raid as soon as you get to the boss. Because even if they cheese it, you will still have some HP to beat and some mechanics to do. If they remove mechanics, you will never learn the boss. And if they don't remove them, you will still need some time to learn them.

Again, this is why an easy mode is needed. I agree that I cannot expect to just beat the current raid bosses, but if they were easy mode, then you could just beat them, and that is the entire point of having an easy mode in the first place.

I'll give you an example. Let's say, Vale Guardian. Vale Guardian spawns regularly some blue circles that "explode" around 5 seconds after they appear. If you are standing on them when they explode you get teleported to a random location in the arena; a location that, possibly, could damage you. Let's say that anet makes an easy version of Vale Guardian. There are several options on how to cheese blues.

Definitely "D." They should teleport you, but the damage involved should not be a huge issue. If you want to train, you'd want to try just as hard to avoid getting caught, and learning to dodge these would teach you what you need to learn. If you don't care to train and just have fun with the mode as it stands then you could try your best to avoid them, but if you messed up, or someone else on your team did, it wouldn't force a wipe or anything and the attempt could continue.

This is what I'm trying to say right now. You will ALWAYS need time. You will NEVER be able to do it as soon as you go to the boss. But this is the same as any other game mode.

Again, while this is true of the existing version, it would not need to be true of an easy mode version. An easy mode would still have things you could learn from it, but you wouldn't need to learn these lessons just to pass it.

[nia.4725]

@Ohoni.6057 said:

@"nia.4725" said:But have you actually tried raiding? Are you saying this because you have joined raids and, after having a raiding experience, you have come to that conclusion?

I have tried them, and I know enough to add that to my decades of personal experience to know that they are not for me in their current form. I know that the "many hours of training runs" that raiders speak of in near-ecstasy just don't appeal to me in the least.

You will never be able to raid as soon as you get to the boss. Because even if they cheese it, you will still have some HP to beat and some mechanics to do. If they remove mechanics, you will never learn the boss. And if they don't remove them, you will still need some time to learn them.

Again,

this is why an easy mode is needed.

I agree that I cannot expect to just beat the current raid bosses, but if they were easy mode, then you

could

just beat them, and that is

the entire point of having an easy mode in the first place.

I'll give you an example. Let's say, Vale Guardian. Vale Guardian spawns regularly some blue circles that "explode" around 5 seconds after they appear. If you are standing on them when they explode you get teleported to a random location in the arena; a location that, possibly, could damage you. Let's say that anet makes an easy version of Vale Guardian. There are several options on how to cheese blues.

Definitely "D." They should teleport you, but the damage involved should not be a huge issue. If you want to train, you'd want to try just as hard to avoid getting caught, and learning to dodge these would teach you what you need to learn. If you don't care to train and just have fun with the mode as it stands then you could try your best to avoid them, but if you messed up, or someone else on your team did, it wouldn't force a wipe or anything and the attempt could continue.

This is what I'm trying to say right now. You will ALWAYS need time. You will NEVER be able to do it as soon as you go to the boss. But this is the same as any other game mode.

Again, while this is true of the existing version, it would not

need

to be true of an easy mode version. An easy mode would still have things you

could

learn from it, but you wouldn't need to learn these lessons just to pass it.

What I was trying to say is that even with "easy mode" raids you will still always need time to learn the minimum. If you go to an unknown boss, how do you expect to kill it? No, you will need to know that there are some circles that do this and some circles that do that, so you will always need some time to actually know that and learn how to deal with it.

Also, I don't think you could beat the boss if you don't actually try to dodge the teleport. Even if they cut VG's HP drastically -say, they give him 10million HP instead of the current 22million, if you are getting teleported all the time the DPS will never be enough. And if you're autoattacking and using your meteor shower when you have it available you will never, either, reach the DPS needed to kill it. Even if they cheese it to ridiculous levels.

Aside from that, I'm curious -do you think that easy mode should give any reward? Any killproof, or that "normal boss" raiders should accept "easy mode raiders"? Just asking to know if you consider the easy mode should give some access to the normal one, or if you would consider it a completely separate thing.

[STIHL.2489]

@Miellyn.6847 said:

@STIHL.2489 said:

@Miellyn.6847 said:

@vesica tempestas.1563 said:

@zealex.9410 said:

@vesica tempestas.1563 said:Its clear that for whatever reason instances take a long time to develop, i.e 5 man/10 man/bigger. You can see that every single AAA mmorpg out there puts out instanced content at a slow rate, and having difficulty levels has no bearing on this (e.g WOW puts out raids faster now with difficulty levels than it did at its peak without) So the question 'how can you speed up instanced content', can only really be answered by a developer who works on and understands the issues with instanced content, and it must be fundamental as the problem is consistent across all games. There is a possibility that high tuning of instanced content is an additional expensive overhead, but I get some players still like this style of gameplay, so fair enough.

Wow's peak was wotlk and it had 10-25mam normal and heroid mode.

yup wotlk is exactly when they introduced difficulty levels and the raiding scene exploded. Prior to that you had the last raid from tbc, sunwell plateau, which funnily enough has the exact same issues as you see in GW2 (and was one of the triggers for the tiered difficulties) I can remember raiding sunwell, and while it was fun that we were part of an 'exclusive' group that accessed the final boss, the vast majority of players did not, and that was a waste of resources that blizzard corrected going forward. At the same time the same type of players complained about it, same complaints as you see now, disingenuous then as it is now, people only thinking about themselves and the 'prestige' they got from the kills, not the game as a whole.

So you are saying that because a raid in a gear driven game that required BiS equipment for the most part as you could farm the previous raid for over 6 months had the same issues as a raid in a game where BiS equipment is easy to get and never changed for Power classes in the last 4 years?Raids in WoW are also a major part in the story, not so much in GW2. Raids are way less frequent and not a major content source as in WoW.

This just validates the objections many had that they have no real good reason to exist in a game like GW2. But if Anet is going to put them in.. they may as well do it right.

There is a very good reason they should exist in GW2. Challenging group content. Something the game was lacking.Raids do not need gear progression to exist.

a Laughable reason. GW2 had Fractals for the PvE players, and sPvP and WvW for anyone looking for a real challenge, as PvP style play has proven constantly to be the most challenging kind of play among all MMO's and MOBA's the world over. It is the only kind of play that is considered requiring real skill and ability, hence being an e-sport. Raids are just a gear grind once the scripted moves are memorized.

And yes they do.. hence why Legendary Armor is locked behind them. It's already been validated on this forum by the pro-raid crowed that if Legendary Armor was removed from raids, that would somehow magically kill raids as well.. So.. No.. You're wrong here, and your fellow raiders have admitted it. All raids are a gear grind, and sadly.. GW2, was not going to be exception.

So if they are going to move into becoming a WoW Clone.. they should at least do it Right, and learn from WoW's mistakes.

That's not an unreasonable request.. to ask Anet to learn from the mistakes of others.

@zealex.9410 said:

@STIHL.2489 said:

@Miellyn.6847 said:

@vesica tempestas.1563 said:

@zealex.9410 said:

@vesica tempestas.1563 said:Its clear that for whatever reason instances take a long time to develop, i.e 5 man/10 man/bigger. You can see that every single AAA mmorpg out there puts out instanced content at a slow rate, and having difficulty levels has no bearing on this (e.g WOW puts out raids faster now with difficulty levels than it did at its peak without) So the question 'how can you speed up instanced content', can only really be answered by a developer who works on and understands the issues with instanced content, and it must be fundamental as the problem is consistent across all games. There is a possibility that high tuning of instanced content is an additional expensive overhead, but I get some players still like this style of gameplay, so fair enough.

Wow's peak was wotlk and it had 10-25mam normal and heroid mode.

yup wotlk is exactly when they introduced difficulty levels and the raiding scene exploded. Prior to that you had the last raid from tbc, sunwell plateau, which funnily enough has the exact same issues as you see in GW2 (and was one of the triggers for the tiered difficulties) I can remember raiding sunwell, and while it was fun that we were part of an 'exclusive' group that accessed the final boss, the vast majority of players did not, and that was a waste of resources that blizzard corrected going forward. At the same time the same type of players complained about it, same complaints as you see now, disingenuous then as it is now, people only thinking about themselves and the 'prestige' they got from the kills, not the game as a whole.

So you are saying that because a raid in a gear driven game that required BiS equipment for the most part as you could farm the previous raid for over 6 months had the same issues as a raid in a game where BiS equipment is easy to get and never changed for Power classes in the last 4 years?Raids in WoW are also a major part in the story, not so much in GW2. Raids are way less frequent and not a major content source as in WoW.

This just validates the objections many had that they have no real good reason to exist in a game like GW2. But if Anet is going to put them in.. they may as well do it right.

No this just shows that gw2 wants abit of everything without becoming wow. U say here that they should turn the game to wow...

I am saying that GW2 should learn from WoW's mistake, and realize that a one size fits all, is not a good way to put Raids in. But, hey, no one needs to learn from the mistakes of the past, or others, everyone has the freedom to screw themselves over like that, and it looks like Anet as they move into becoming a generic WoW Clone, is going to be doing... just that.

Might be why so many WoW Clones fail, they fail to learn from WoW's mistakes as they try to copy the giant.

But.. we can still try to warn them.. "hey.. this was a bad idea in every other MMO's that has raids.. and since Raids in GW2 are not intrinsically different then Raids in other games.. it's not going to become a good one here"

[STIHL.2489]

@nia.4725 said:

@Ohoni.6057 said:

@nia.4725 said:The thing is that you won't be able to kill a raid boss without a proper rotation. Raid bosses can't be killed pressing whatever buttons. Try to go to a raid boss with 10 people who won't do a rotation: you'll fail miserably. And I can assure you that once you've done your rotation many times you have it so internalized that you don't think about it -you just execute it. And then raids are very chill, if you have a decent group.

Raids are end-game content, they're supposed to be the most challenging content ingame. That means they can't be cheesed, they are supposed to be difficult. They are supposed to require an special effort in order to beat them. Not just going there with whatever and doing whatever. If you want to kill the boss you need to play as good as you can. If you aren't willing to do that, I'm afraid raids are not for you.

Exactly! See, nobody else seems to get it, that is

exactly

why an easy mode is needed, because the current version alone can't possibly cut it for most players.

Do you think raiders have been born with the skill required to raid?

No, we were casual mortals with no idea of what a rotation is. And yet we did it! So why can't everyone else? It's just an effort. Do the effort and you'll be able to raid. You don't need an easy mode, just do a friggin effort.

I started raiding a year ago and you know that? I was a terrible player, I died 3958903579 times trying to play tempest, my dps was absolute crap and I struggled trying to do my rotation. But, wow, I actually tried, and kept trying, and even though I can't play everything and I'm fairly bad at some classes, I full clear and I am able to play a lot of roles and professions. Ifull clear every week.

If I didn't need an easy mode, why do you? Believe in yourself and try. I swear, I am not a very skilled player, I'm nowhere near a pro, I just persevered.

Because I have neither the time, crayons or alcohol tolerance to deal with that kind of shit in a game anymore.

Sorry, doing that is simply not fun for me, and I am not going to play a game to frustrate myself, if that is what works for you, kudos, but I played GW2 because is was supposed to be the MMO for the other players, if I just wanted to deal with the same old same old I could have gotten from WoW.. I'd have just played WoW.

[Vinceman.4572]

@STIHL.2489 said:a Laughable reason. GW2 had Fractals for the PvE players.

Fractals are not challenging besides - maybe - challenge motes. T4s are very easy. You don't even need the gold standard with chrono, druid, war and 2 weavers to have a comfortable life in there.

[STIHL.2489]

@Vinceman.4572 said:

@"STIHL.2489" said:a Laughable reason. GW2 had Fractals for the PvE players.

Fractals are not challenging besides - maybe - challenge motes. T4s are very easy. You don't even need the gold standard with chrono, druid, war and 2 weavers to have a comfortable life in there.

Everyone.. please read this.. "T4 are not a challenge" this is what we are dealing with.. You know what.. maybe you are just too good for GW2, and need to move up to a big-boy MMO?

[nia.4725]

@STIHL.2489 said:

@nia.4725 said:

@Ohoni.6057 said:

@nia.4725 said:The thing is that you won't be able to kill a raid boss without a proper rotation. Raid bosses can't be killed pressing whatever buttons. Try to go to a raid boss with 10 people who won't do a rotation: you'll fail miserably. And I can assure you that once you've done your rotation many times you have it so internalized that you don't think about it -you just execute it. And then raids are very chill, if you have a decent group.

Raids are end-game content, they're supposed to be the most challenging content ingame. That means they can't be cheesed, they are supposed to be difficult. They are supposed to require an special effort in order to beat them. Not just going there with whatever and doing whatever. If you want to kill the boss you need to play as good as you can. If you aren't willing to do that, I'm afraid raids are not for you.

Exactly! See, nobody else seems to get it, that is

exactly

why an easy mode is needed, because the current version alone can't possibly cut it for most players.

Do you think raiders have been born with the skill required to raid?

No, we were casual mortals with no idea of what a rotation is. And yet we did it! So why can't everyone else? It's just an effort. Do the effort and you'll be able to raid. You don't need an easy mode, just do a friggin effort.

I started raiding a year ago and you know that? I was a terrible player, I died 3958903579 times trying to play tempest, my dps was absolute crap and I struggled trying to do my rotation. But, wow, I actually tried, and kept trying, and even though I can't play everything and I'm fairly bad at some classes, I full clear and I am able to play a lot of roles and professions. Ifull clear every week.

If I didn't need an easy mode, why do you? Believe in yourself and try. I swear, I am not a very skilled player, I'm nowhere near a pro, I just persevered.

Because I have neither the time, crayons or alcohol tolerance to deal with that kind of kitten in a game anymore.

Sorry, doing that is simply not fun for me, and I am not going to play a game to frustrate myself, if that is what works for you, kudos, but I played GW2 because is was supposed to be the MMO for the

other players

, if I just wanted to deal with the same old same old I could have gotten from WoW.. I'd have just played WoW.

then don't do raids. lol you're crying because you don't want to do something that is not fun for you so instead of playing something fun for you, you want arenanet to change it so it pleases you

10/10

[Feanor.2358]

@nia.4725 said:

@Ohoni.6057 said:

@nia.4725 said:Do you think raiders have been born with the skill required to raid?

Unlikely, but I think they were probably born with the interest to

pursue

those skills, or at least at some point they acquired it. I think that raiders see a

value

of some sort in spending hours upon hours in "training runs," accomplishing nothing more than honing their understanding of the encounter and their skills. It's fine if they feel this way, so long as they understand that not everyone does, or

should.

That it in no way makes them better than their fellow gamers for enjoying this sort of thing, or their fellow gamers any worse for not wanting to do any of that.

No, we were casual mortals with no idea of what a rotation is. And yet we did it! So why can't everyone else?

I think that most could, they just don't want to. And they shouldn't have to.

You don't need an easy mode, just do a friggin effort.

I

could,

but that wouldn't make me happy, so instead I pursue an easy mode, which

would

make me happy. Why would I pursue something that wouldn't make me happy?

I started raiding a year ago and you know that? I was a terrible player, I died 3958903579 times trying to play tempest, my dps was absolute crap and I struggled trying to do my rotation. But, wow, I actually tried, and kept trying, and even though I can't play everything and I'm fairly bad at some classes, I full clear and I am able to play a lot of roles and professions. Ifull clear every week.

As John Oliver would say, "cool."

If I didn't need an easy mode, why do you?

Different wiring, I imagine. You can die 3958903579 trying to complete a boss, eventually beat it, and eventually feel

pleased

with the sum of the time you spent in that effort. I know that I'm not wired like that, if I spent even a fraction as long at the task, then even if the eventual result was that I had the raid on farm and could just roll in and solo the joint, that wouldn't make me happy. I would feel hollow, I would feel that my efforts in getting to that point was a waste of my time and effort. I cannot feel good about struggling to improve in a game.

I have fun

beating

encounters, and then beating them again, and again, even better each time, until I feel

really

good at it. But I want to

beat

it that first time, or at least the second. I have no interest in losing encounters more than a couple of times, and making

significant

improvement on

each

attempt.

We are different people, and that doesn't become a problem until you start assuming that we are the same, and that what works for you should work equally well for me.

So you're telling me that you're not interested in the effort required to do raids.

Then why do you want to raid?

Shinies. Pretty obvious by now.

[Feanor.2358]

@STIHL.2489 said:

@Vinceman.4572 said:

@STIHL.2489 said:a Laughable reason. GW2 had Fractals for the PvE players.

Fractals are not challenging besides - maybe - challenge motes. T4s are very easy. You don't even need the gold standard with chrono, druid, war and 2 weavers to have a comfortable life in there.

Everyone.. please read this.. "T4 are not a challenge" this is what we are dealing with.. You know what.. maybe you are just too good for GW2, and need to move up to a big-boy MMO?

Thankfully ANet are smarter than that and they've created content that targets players like me in addition to players like you. Turns out you can have more options than either-or. Who would have thought?

[STIHL.2489]

@nia.4725 said:

@STIHL.2489 said:

@nia.4725 said:

@Ohoni.6057 said:

@nia.4725 said:The thing is that you won't be able to kill a raid boss without a proper rotation. Raid bosses can't be killed pressing whatever buttons. Try to go to a raid boss with 10 people who won't do a rotation: you'll fail miserably. And I can assure you that once you've done your rotation many times you have it so internalized that you don't think about it -you just execute it. And then raids are very chill, if you have a decent group.

Raids are end-game content, they're supposed to be the most challenging content ingame. That means they can't be cheesed, they are supposed to be difficult. They are supposed to require an special effort in order to beat them. Not just going there with whatever and doing whatever. If you want to kill the boss you need to play as good as you can. If you aren't willing to do that, I'm afraid raids are not for you.

Exactly! See, nobody else seems to get it, that is

exactly

why an easy mode is needed, because the current version alone can't possibly cut it for most players.

Do you think raiders have been born with the skill required to raid?

No, we were casual mortals with no idea of what a rotation is. And yet we did it! So why can't everyone else? It's just an effort. Do the effort and you'll be able to raid. You don't need an easy mode, just do a friggin effort.

I started raiding a year ago and you know that? I was a terrible player, I died 3958903579 times trying to play tempest, my dps was absolute crap and I struggled trying to do my rotation. But, wow, I actually tried, and kept trying, and even though I can't play everything and I'm fairly bad at some classes, I full clear and I am able to play a lot of roles and professions. Ifull clear every week.

If I didn't need an easy mode, why do you? Believe in yourself and try. I swear, I am not a very skilled player, I'm nowhere near a pro, I just persevered.

Because I have neither the time, crayons or alcohol tolerance to deal with that kind of kitten in a game anymore.

Sorry, doing that is simply not fun for me, and I am not going to play a game to frustrate myself, if that is what works for you, kudos, but I played GW2 because is was supposed to be the MMO for the

other players

, if I just wanted to deal with the same old same old I could have gotten from WoW.. I'd have just played WoW.

then don't do raids. lol you're crying because you don't want to do something that is not fun for you so instead of playing something fun for you, you want arenanet to change it so it pleases you

10/10

Yes.. exactly in same way elitist players wanted harder content put in placate them.. I want the same kind of content put in easier to placate me.

If they can make raids for them.. they can make raids for me.

It's not hard to grasp, WoW figured this one out over a decade ago. Not sure why, today, we have people who can't seem to grasp this.