Do raids need easy/normal/hard difficulty mode? [merged]

Blaeys.3102 · May 31, 2018

@mortrialus.3062 said:
@Blaeys.3102 said:I had this in another thread, but it makes more sense to state it here -
I know some people do not want to accept it, but the reason WoW is seen as the posterchild for how to make raiding work in an MMO is because the developers there adapted the game mode throughout the years and ended up with something that fits with the rest of the game. By including multiple difficulty tiers (including and LFG and flex raid tier), they were able to do things that a game like GW2 cannot, most notably incorporating strong story and lore focused content into raids. Since they do not have to worry about the accessibility factor, raids could become a deeply integrated part of the WoW experience.

WoW is seen as the pinnacle of raiding content because a decade ago it released iconic difficult raid after iconic that people still talk about. People still talk about Ragnaros, C'thun, Kael'thas, Illidan and Arthas. No one has ever or will ever be waxing poetic about Deathwing, Ragnaros 2.0, Garrosh, or Argus theuUnmaker a decade from now.

All of the bosses you mention here are now 100-1000 times easier than anything in GW2 because of the gear and level treadmills - game features that created their own sort of difficultly levels (within months of the content being released). Essentially, the content was eventually open and easily accessible to players of all skill levels through that design.

Now, gear treadmills do not exist (or belong) in GW2, so that isn't an option. The correct path to take here is to implement actual difficulty tiers - to achieve that same level of accessibility those iconic raid bosses in WoW had.

Bladestrom.6425 · May 31, 2018

@Blaeys.3102 said:
@mortrialus.3062 said:
@Blaeys.3102 said:I had this in another thread, but it makes more sense to state it here -
I know some people do not want to accept it, but the reason WoW is seen as the posterchild for how to make raiding work in an MMO is because the developers there adapted the game mode throughout the years and ended up with something that fits with the rest of the game. By including multiple difficulty tiers (including and LFG and flex raid tier), they were able to do things that a game like GW2 cannot, most notably incorporating strong story and lore focused content into raids. Since they do not have to worry about the accessibility factor, raids could become a deeply integrated part of the WoW experience.

WoW is seen as the pinnacle of raiding content because a decade ago it released iconic difficult raid after iconic that people still talk about. People still talk about Ragnaros, C'thun, Kael'thas, Illidan and Arthas. No one has ever or will ever be waxing poetic about Deathwing, Ragnaros 2.0, Garrosh, or Argus theuUnmaker a decade from now.

All of the bosses you mention here are now 100-1000 times easier than anything in GW2 because of the gear and level treadmills - game features that created their own sort of difficultly levels (within months of the content being released). Essentially, the content was eventually open and easily accessible to players of all skill levels through that design.

Now, gear treadmills do not exist (or belong) in GW2, so that isn't an option. The correct path to take here is to implement actual difficulty tiers - to achieve that same level of accessibility those iconic raid bosses in WoW had.

yep agree here :) Blizzard took this approach deliberately as their way of giving access to the maximum number of players, recognising that the majority are not interested in the wipe/memorise pattern style of gameplay, same for other mmorpg. GW2 has not yet evolved a solution to this problem.

Glingal.5869 · May 31, 2018

I play this game since beta and I don't consider myself to be a particularly bad player and still I was never on a successful raid ever. But the reason for that is in fact not my abilities but completely different things.

I was in a guild who successfully did raids but I never was on any of them. I very much dislike the whole bureocracy that has developed around raids. As you need 10 people to do them you are expected to sign up on lists a long time in advance and you have to do trainings and whatnot. I never did that and it may be my own fault, but most of the time I don't really know if I am available on a particular day at a particular time. It really puts me off.

I would actually really like to do raids, not for the loot but just for fun and to see the story. I could probably get together 5 guild mates at the same time rather spontanously, but not 10. If we could do it with a lower number of good people or 10 randoms I'd definitely try it. For me it just has to be a thing I can do without too much planning in advance. I'm not against raids being a challange but for me personally the barrier to go on one is just too high.

So yes, I would really appreciate an easy mode for raids to make it possible for every interested player to do them without too much fuss.

Ohoni.6057 · May 31, 2018

@nia.4725 said:No. Raids are PvE and it's obvious -it has the same combat system as PvE, you access them via PvE-Open world, it uses the same build template as the rest of PvE. So > raids are PvE.

Yes, just as WvW is PvP.

PvP and WvW are not accessible from the same place. PvP has its own areas, that you join by opening a specific menu.

So? You can access the WvW and PvP areas from Lion's Arch, you can access Raids from Lion's Arch. You can also access both from the UI, if they offered an ability to jump straight into a raid from the UI, would that suddenly separate it from PvE?

has its own rules and system DIFFERENT from PvP and even has a different build template than PvP (talking about traits here).

And raids also have their own distinctions from regular PvE, like the Raid Squad, and the different balance priorities. That they haven't chosen to split abilities between raid and PvE yet does not mean that they shoukldn't. It took them a long time to start splitting PvP and PvE abilities as well.

So no, it can't be compared. You're comparing concepts ("playing against players" vs "playing against environment"), but the truth is that PvP and WvW are far more different than that and are played in completely different ways and places.

No more different than PvE and raids though.

@Feanor.2358 said:
@Etria.3642 said:The trouble is not MY willingness to repeat the fights until I learn them. The trouble is the willingness of OTHER people. I really didn't believe in the 'toxicity' of the raiding community until I tried it. Wow. Show your achievements or you can't come. This is a learning raid but of we wipe twice I'm outta here for a experienced group. Race through the fight asap. Explain nothing. Voice? Ltp newb. Why don't you just buy a run if you don't know it. Not ready yet? Too bad we can get this fight down without you. Good luck next time.
It isn't the raid difficulty that needs fixing its the raiders.

Try looking from their perspective. Experienced raiders are long past what you're trying to accomplish. Although I do question their decision to join a training group in the first place, if they don't have the patience to see it through. Unfortunately that's how it works - some people have to devote a lot of time and effort to teach some curious casual players about raiding. And the worst part is, most of it will be in vain, as not everyone will end up raiding. Respect these people and their effort.

But the thing is, I can look at it from their perspective, and get why they are like that, I do not blame them for adapting to the current environment. That's why I want an easy mode that does not encourage that sort of mindset. I don't blame the player, I blame the game. I want to change the game.

@nia.4725 said:What I do not agree on (sorry about that, but this is important and every newbie should understand it): you can't expect to be welcomed in a training group if you don't know ANYTHING about the boss. Do your homework and read a guide. If you don't know the basics of the boss, you're forcing someone else to explain them to you. And the fact that there's a training in the LFG does not necessarily mean that someone is training a group of people -it can mean someone has gathered more people in order to train. No one is obliged to explain the boss to you. You can't just join and expect them to do that.

You know what would fix that? An easy mode.

STIHL.2489 · June 1, 2018

@Ohoni.6057 said:
@vesica tempestas.1563 said:
@Astralporing.1957 said:
@Feanor.2358 said:
@Astralporing.1957 said:
@Feanor.2358 said:
@Astralporing.1957 said:
@Feanor.2358 said:Nah, the game is far more PvE oriented than PvP/WvW. Look at the amount of content and its updates. So they aren't going to put a major feature in one of its side modes exclusively, or first.They did that with legendary armor though (only side content so far). And with the backpacks (PvP first, then fractals, then WvW). Besides, we have already legendaries from LS (aurora) and raids (coalescence). Next is likely either one or both of PvP modes.

Fractals and raids are PvE.Raids were, and still are a side mode

No they aren't. Not any more than t4 fractals are "side mode" or explorable dungeons are "side mode".Whether something is a side mode depends on both its popularity, and on whether the content is designed with the intention of being meant as a niche or not.

So, fractals and dungeons

are

side modes, although, considering their popularity numbers, they are a less of a side mode than raids. AC, with the 60% completion rate from efficiency could even be argued to have moved from that "side" content to the mainstream.

So, t4 fractals and dungeons

are

side modes, and raids are even more of a side modes than them.

the main factor is design intent. Raids are designed for a niche gameplay style whereas dungeons and fractals are designed for the masses.

Yes, and even then, there's no harm in bad design,

so long as they don't leave it that way.

So if they designed a system one way, and the players did not react to it as they expected, that's ok, so long as they are willing to get back in there and make it work more to the players' expectations. It only becomes a

problem

if they just let it sit there, broken, indefinitely, or if they say "well, it was broken, and some people played it anyway, so we can't fix it without 'devaluing their efforts.'"

Maybe Anet has just figured "Meh.. good enough"

I mean, there could be a lot of motives behind not wanting to revamp raids, like, for example, it could have been a lot easier to just put Legendary Armor in other game modes hence their sPvP/WvW system.

Or maybe.. Raids didn't generate anywhere near the response they were looking for, and they might have concluded it would be easier to make new content, or use other existing system and it would be easier to make Fractal Armor, or some Open World system using the Hellfire/Radiant armors, then it would be to revise Raids at this point.

In the end, Anet has opted to make it clear that raids are the way they are, and they are going to stay that way.

I wish I could tell you something different, I ain't happy about it either.. but it is.. what it is.

Ohoni.6057 · June 1, 2018

@STIHL.2489 said:
@Ohoni.6057 said:
@vesica tempestas.1563 said:
@Astralporing.1957 said:
@Feanor.2358 said:
@Astralporing.1957 said:
@Feanor.2358 said:
@Astralporing.1957 said:
@Feanor.2358 said:Nah, the game is far more PvE oriented than PvP/WvW. Look at the amount of content and its updates. So they aren't going to put a major feature in one of its side modes exclusively, or first.They did that with legendary armor though (only side content so far). And with the backpacks (PvP first, then fractals, then WvW). Besides, we have already legendaries from LS (aurora) and raids (coalescence). Next is likely either one or both of PvP modes.

Fractals and raids are PvE.Raids were, and still are a side mode

No they aren't. Not any more than t4 fractals are "side mode" or explorable dungeons are "side mode".Whether something is a side mode depends on both its popularity, and on whether the content is designed with the intention of being meant as a niche or not.

So, fractals and dungeons

are

side modes, although, considering their popularity numbers, they are a less of a side mode than raids. AC, with the 60% completion rate from efficiency could even be argued to have moved from that "side" content to the mainstream.

So, t4 fractals and dungeons

are

side modes, and raids are even more of a side modes than them.

the main factor is design intent. Raids are designed for a niche gameplay style whereas dungeons and fractals are designed for the masses.

Yes, and even then, there's no harm in bad design,

so long as they don't leave it that way.

So if they designed a system one way, and the players did not react to it as they expected, that's ok, so long as they are willing to get back in there and make it work more to the players' expectations. It only becomes a

problem

if they just let it sit there, broken, indefinitely, or if they say "well, it was broken, and some people played it anyway, so we can't fix it without 'devaluing their efforts.'"

Maybe Anet has just figured "Meh.. good enough"

I mean, there could be a lot of motives behind not wanting to revamp raids, like, for example, it could have been a lot easier to just put Legendary Armor in other game modes hence their sPvP/WvW system.

Or maybe.. Raids didn't generate anywhere near the response they were looking for, and they might have concluded it would be easier to make new content, or use other existing system and it would be easier to make Fractal Armor, or some Open World system using the Hellfire/Radiant armors, then it would be to revise Raids at this point.

In the end, Anet has opted to make it clear that raids are the way they are, and they are going to stay that way.

I wish I could tell you something different, I ain't happy about it either.. but it is.. what it is.

Dude, Stihl, I know you've given up on this, and we both know I won't, so maybe cut it out with the "that's just the way it is" stuff? I mean, these other guys are broken records too, but at least they seem to care about something. You just make me. . . sad.

STIHL.2489 · June 1, 2018

@Ohoni.6057 said:
@STIHL.2489 said:
@Ohoni.6057 said:
@vesica tempestas.1563 said:
@Astralporing.1957 said:
@Feanor.2358 said:
@Astralporing.1957 said:
@Feanor.2358 said:
@Astralporing.1957 said:
@Feanor.2358 said:Nah, the game is far more PvE oriented than PvP/WvW. Look at the amount of content and its updates. So they aren't going to put a major feature in one of its side modes exclusively, or first.They did that with legendary armor though (only side content so far). And with the backpacks (PvP first, then fractals, then WvW). Besides, we have already legendaries from LS (aurora) and raids (coalescence). Next is likely either one or both of PvP modes.

Fractals and raids are PvE.Raids were, and still are a side mode

No they aren't. Not any more than t4 fractals are "side mode" or explorable dungeons are "side mode".Whether something is a side mode depends on both its popularity, and on whether the content is designed with the intention of being meant as a niche or not.

So, fractals and dungeons

are

side modes, although, considering their popularity numbers, they are a less of a side mode than raids. AC, with the 60% completion rate from efficiency could even be argued to have moved from that "side" content to the mainstream.

So, t4 fractals and dungeons

are

side modes, and raids are even more of a side modes than them.

the main factor is design intent. Raids are designed for a niche gameplay style whereas dungeons and fractals are designed for the masses.

Yes, and even then, there's no harm in bad design,

so long as they don't leave it that way.

So if they designed a system one way, and the players did not react to it as they expected, that's ok, so long as they are willing to get back in there and make it work more to the players' expectations. It only becomes a

problem

if they just let it sit there, broken, indefinitely, or if they say "well, it was broken, and some people played it anyway, so we can't fix it without 'devaluing their efforts.'"

Maybe Anet has just figured "Meh.. good enough"

I mean, there could be a lot of motives behind not wanting to revamp raids, like, for example, it could have been a lot easier to just put Legendary Armor in other game modes hence their sPvP/WvW system.

Or maybe.. Raids didn't generate anywhere near the response they were looking for, and they might have concluded it would be easier to make new content, or use other existing system and it would be easier to make Fractal Armor, or some Open World system using the Hellfire/Radiant armors, then it would be to revise Raids at this point.

In the end, Anet has opted to make it clear that raids are the way they are, and they are going to stay that way.

I wish I could tell you something different, I ain't happy about it either.. but it is.. what it is.

Dude, Stihl, I know you've given up on this, and we both know I won't, so maybe cut it out with the "that's just the way it is" stuff? I mean, these other guys are broken records too, but at least they seem to

care

about something. You just make me. . . sad.

I know.. and you will have to forgive me.. but that is my goal. Understand, I am on your side, I think you are right, and they really should have put raids in better, be it by having a difficulty progression like dungeons, going from AC to Araha, or having Tiers like Fractals (maybe with a hard gear gate as well).

But, look, if we are right, or wrong, is not the question here. Of course it's petty, stupid and pointless to want exclusive content, or shake an e-peen about some precious BS loot, or keep some value to effort put into the content, when it can have hurtful repercussions on the rest of the game and it's community.

Yes.. everyone on your side of this discussion got that.. and we also got the clue that everyone that has been arguing with us on this has their head shoved so far up their ass that they could not see daylight if we tossed them into the sun.

But I hate to say this.. because I love your tenacity.. but we've said all we are ever going to say on this.

At this point, we are ALL broken records.

Barbatos.9607 · June 1, 2018

I'm up for both. Looking from the perspective of how difficult it is for returning players even. Lower the KP reward but make it possible to the peopl to actually be able to PUG Raids after instead of being on not only a mercy of commander but possibility of assembling a spot in the raiding Guild.

Second part is that this idea pan-out well within other MMOs. Easy (Heroic for example) mode can be for casual and even semi-hc Teams/PUGs/premades a good place to test and work on tacts - or to raid if they just simply prefer to - when difficult raid (nightmare for example) can be used by mid to top tier Guilds driven by progress.

Fullly up for that idea, but it will require more than just having both mods. Some additional tokens to be in place (having them put there in a smart way). And ANet, one more thing - for the love of god - please enable some achi possibility or eligibility per encounter accomplishment to be possible have it presented to other people. My bags are full with KPs, LI system is fair, but not for people that want to raid, are good but for example returned to the game a few weeks back. It is also a turn off for possible new players looking from the struggle perspective of having 150-200 LIs (and no, training groups are not an answer to that).

Feanor.2358 · June 1, 2018

@Ohoni.6057 said:
@Feanor.2358 said:
@Etria.3642 said:The trouble is not MY willingness to repeat the fights until I learn them. The trouble is the willingness of OTHER people. I really didn't believe in the 'toxicity' of the raiding community until I tried it. Wow. Show your achievements or you can't come. This is a learning raid but of we wipe twice I'm outta here for a experienced group. Race through the fight asap. Explain nothing. Voice? Ltp newb. Why don't you just buy a run if you don't know it. Not ready yet? Too bad we can get this fight down without you. Good luck next time.
It isn't the raid difficulty that needs fixing its the raiders.

Try looking from their perspective. Experienced raiders are long past what you're trying to accomplish. Although I do question their decision to join a training group in the first place, if they don't have the patience to see it through. Unfortunately that's how it works - some people have to devote a lot of time and effort to teach some curious casual players about raiding. And the worst part is, most of it will be in vain, as not everyone will end up raiding. Respect these people and their effort.

But the thing is, I

can

look at it from their perspective, and

get

why they are like that, I do not blame them for adapting to the current environment. That's why I want an

easy mode

that does not

encourage

that sort of mindset. I don't blame the player, I blame the game. I want to change the game.

The comment was not addressed to you, and its author was blaming the players. Which he was actually right to do, I merely explained why this was to be expected. And perhaps suggesting that both sides are to blame.

I fully well know you won't be accepting any blame yourself. You seek to point the fault elsewhere. Guess it's too hard for you to accept you might actually be doing something wrong.

Ohoni.6057 · June 1, 2018

@Feanor.2358 said:The comment was not addressed to you, and its author was blaming the players. Which he was actually right to do, I merely explained why this was to be expected. And perhaps suggesting that both sides are to blame.

But my point is, if you fill a room with water, you can't blame people for swimming to stay above it. I can't blame players for taking on toxic mindsets when toxic mindsets greatly increase their chances of not completely wasting their evening, due to the way that the content is structured. This is why I believe in offering an alternative form of the content that does not benefit from those sorts of toxic mindsets, allowing more casual players to avoid that mess entirely.

Brynioch.1873 · June 1, 2018

@vesica tempestas.1563 said:
@Blaeys.3102 said:
@mortrialus.3062 said:
@Blaeys.3102 said:I had this in another thread, but it makes more sense to state it here -
I know some people do not want to accept it, but the reason WoW is seen as the posterchild for how to make raiding work in an MMO is because the developers there adapted the game mode throughout the years and ended up with something that fits with the rest of the game. By including multiple difficulty tiers (including and LFG and flex raid tier), they were able to do things that a game like GW2 cannot, most notably incorporating strong story and lore focused content into raids. Since they do not have to worry about the accessibility factor, raids could become a deeply integrated part of the WoW experience.

WoW is seen as the pinnacle of raiding content because a decade ago it released iconic difficult raid after iconic that people still talk about. People still talk about Ragnaros, C'thun, Kael'thas, Illidan and Arthas. No one has ever or will ever be waxing poetic about Deathwing, Ragnaros 2.0, Garrosh, or Argus theuUnmaker a decade from now.

All of the bosses you mention here are now 100-1000 times easier than anything in GW2 because of the gear and level treadmills - game features that created their own sort of difficultly levels (within months of the content being released). Essentially, the content was eventually open and easily accessible to players of all skill levels through that design.

Now, gear treadmills do not exist (or belong) in GW2, so that isn't an option. The correct path to take here is to implement actual difficulty tiers - to achieve that same level of accessibility those iconic raid bosses in WoW had.

yep agree here :) Blizzard took this approach deliberately as their way of giving access to the maximum number of players, recognising that the majority are not interested in the wipe/memorise pattern style of gameplay, same for other mmorpg. GW2 has not yet evolved a solution to this problem.

No, they took this approach to generate the most playtime and an new carrot to chase after each patch. This has nothing to do with accessibility.

nia.4725 · June 1, 2018

@"Ohoni.6057" said:You know what would fix that? An easy mode.

Maybe for some people, it would be the solution. But for some people, not all of them. It all depends on their wishes and desires and beliefs about raids. I mean, some different situations may occur that makes a player choose to stay trying in normal mode, or go easy mode:

a) The rewards they want and where they can be obtained. But not only that. If easy mode gave different rewards, it would be a matter of "which reward do I want". If easy mode gave the same rewards but slower in time, it would be a matter of "what is more valuable to me, getting a kill easily or obtaining the rewards faster". So, the player would always have a decision to make, and that could lead them either to easy mode or to stay in normal mode.

Then, let's say, a player decides to go easy mode. The rewards are less and different but they see easy mode as a way of training in order to then go normal mode and be more experienced there. When they go back to normal mode they will face the same problems they faced earlier on: bad accessibility and harder mechanics they won't be prepared to deal with.

b) Beliefs about raids. Yup. If there was an easy mode and a normal mode, there are (some/big) chances of easy mode being considered inferior, a "house of noobs", blabla bad reputation. This can make a player stay in normal mode, if they believe in those sayings about easy mode. "I don't want to be considered a noob/bad player bc of playing in easy mode".

Another thing that, in my opinion, is important. This "training, know mechanics" is something VERY usual in GW2. It's not only in raids. If you see fractals LFG, and see a training there (although trainings are very few), they will ask you to know the mechanics. And if the group is completely unexperienced, the LFG will probably say something like "first time fractal XX". That is very healthy, I think. Because it allows the potential players that join to know beforehand what to expect from the group, so they can know if that group is what they're looking for or not. This avoids problems and frustration for everyone. Even if easy mode exists, this things will keep happening in normal mode.

Ohoni.6057 · June 1, 2018

@"nia.4725" said:a) The rewards they want and where they can be obtained. But not only that. If easy mode gave different rewards, it would be a matter of "which reward do I want".

Right, which is why offering *different& rewards would be counterproductive and a waste of everyone's time and effort.

If easy mode gave the same rewards but slower in time, it would be a matter of "what is more valuable to me, getting a kill easily or obtaining the rewards faster".

Which is a reasonable trade-off seen all over the place in this, and practically every other game.

Then, let's say, a player decides to go easy mode. The rewards are less and different but they see easy mode as a way of training in order to then go normal mode and be more experienced there.

Which would be fine, if that's his choice.

When they go back to normal mode they will face the same problems they faced earlier on: bad accessibility and harder mechanics they won't be prepared to deal with.

Which is, unfortunately, an inevitable side effect of normal mode.

b) Beliefs about raids. Yup. If there was an easy mode and a normal mode, there are (some/big) chances of easy mode being considered inferior, a "house of noobs", blabla bad reputation. This can make a player stay in normal mode, if they believe in those sayings about easy mode. "I don't want to be considered a noob/bad player bc of playing in easy mode".

Again, 100% their choice.

Even if easy mode exists, this things will keep happening in normal mode.

Sure, but there would now at least be an alternative for those who don't want to do that.

Feanor.2358 · June 1, 2018

@Ohoni.6057 said:
@Feanor.2358 said:The comment was not addressed to you, and its author was blaming the players. Which he was actually right to do, I merely explained why this was to be expected. And perhaps suggesting that both sides are to blame.

But my point is, if you fill a room with water, you can't blame people for swimming to stay above it. I can't blame players for taking on toxic mindsets when toxic mindsets greatly increase their chances of not completely wasting their evening, due to the way that the content is structured. This is why I believe in offering an

alternative

form of the content that does not benefit from those sorts of toxic mindsets, allowing more casual players to avoid that mess entirely.

So your solution when people complain about a pool being too deep is to leave the water knee-level. What about all those who want to swim?

And before you say it - no, an easy mode would affect raiding.

Raizel.8175 · June 1, 2018

So...

After that Overhaul-raids-thread is dead now and I don't want to read 67 pages here... Any new arguments here or is it just the usual repetition?

Oh, and to the armor-faction: I'm probably still fairly new to the game, started raiding approx. 2 months ago, but was able to craft my first armor-piece this week. The worst part of that are by far the Provisioner Token. You just have to want it and you'll get it.

nia.4725 · June 1, 2018

@Raizel.8175 said:So...
After that Overhaul-raids-thread is dead now and I don't want to read 67 pages here... Any new arguments here or is it just the usual repetition?
Oh, and to the armor-faction: I'm probably still fairly new to the game, started raiding approx. 2 months ago, but was able to craft my first armor-piece this week. The worst part of that are by far the Provisioner Token. You just have to want it and you'll get it.

Just the usual repetition.

Ohoni.6057 · June 1, 2018

@Feanor.2358 said:So your solution when people complain about a pool being too deep is to leave the water knee-level. What about all those who want to swim?

No, again, have a deep end, and also have a shallow end, and allow players to choose which they prefer.

And before you say it - no, an easy mode would not affect raiding.

Feanor.2358 · June 1, 2018

@Ohoni.6057 said:And before you say it - no, an easy mode would not affect raiding.