Do raids need easy/normal/hard difficulty mode? [merged]

[mortrialus.3062]

@Tyson.5160 said:

@Tyson.5160 said:

@mortrialus.3062 said:

@Tyson.5160 said:

@STIHL.2489 said:

@Tyson.5160 said:

@Teamkiller.4315 said:

@Ohoni.6057 said:I think you've made perfectly clear that

you

don't, nothing more.

I'm not going to allow you to get away with these extremely vague accusations. Moving the goalposts is where when you present an argument (or demand for proof), someone answers it, and you retroactively change said argument so the answer doesn't apply anymore. It's one of those fallacies that allows the user to (incorrectly) trick themselves into thinking they don't ever have to be wrong, which is what you're doing.

It's also what you did. You said someone's suggestion had no pros, I listed some pros, you say they weren't pros, I saw that's because you're only thinking of yourself.

And then you hit me with this:

@Ohoni.6057 said:

@Teamkiller.4315 said:So ohoni, i understand those aren't positives for you but you're not the center of the world.

Yes, and neither are you. Raiders already seem to be mostly fine with how raids are now, and if there are things they'd like changed, I mostly support that, but right now we're talking about the people for whom raids do NOT currently work, and making the mode more fun for

those

players. The changes I advocate for are in the service of that goal. I do not expect existing raiders to benefit significantly from those changes, but that is not the point of them.

That's just drawing a big ??? for me there.

The more I read these comments,the more I wonder if putting Legendary Envoy armor behind Raids was a good idea. Had they not thrown in the armor would many of us even be discussing any of this right now? Hypothetically speaking of course.

It was a positively horrible idea to do what they did.. and it is about the only thing that is bringing in new blood to the game mode.

Thankfully they had a bout of common sense and put in alternate paths to Legendary Armor.

I honestly don’t think people wouldn’t be complaining nearly as much, if they only kept the current raid skins you find now like the pieces of Dhuum’s armor, Matthias staff etc.

I mean Raids were designed to give people the challenge, no? That’s what the driving factor was, yes?

If you give non-raiders the envoy armor, do you really think they're going to be happy until they get Oblivion and everything else too?

And yet, I see no one complaining about oblivion or the Dhuum armor at all though. What I do see is people complaining about Envoy.

If Envoy wasn’t attached to raids, then I don’t think we would nearly have the problems we have been discussing about.

Why do casual non-raiders care about legendary armor? The ability to stat swap gear and runes is really only a benefit in more raids and t4 and CM fractals by allowing you to run more builds which only really matters in difficult content that challenges you anyway.

[Tyson.5160]

@mortrialus.3062 said:

@Tyson.5160 said:

@Tyson.5160 said:

@mortrialus.3062 said:

@Tyson.5160 said:

@STIHL.2489 said:

@Tyson.5160 said:

@Teamkiller.4315 said:

@Ohoni.6057 said:I think you've made perfectly clear that

you

don't, nothing more.

I'm not going to allow you to get away with these extremely vague accusations. Moving the goalposts is where when you present an argument (or demand for proof), someone answers it, and you retroactively change said argument so the answer doesn't apply anymore. It's one of those fallacies that allows the user to (incorrectly) trick themselves into thinking they don't ever have to be wrong, which is what you're doing.

It's also what you did. You said someone's suggestion had no pros, I listed some pros, you say they weren't pros, I saw that's because you're only thinking of yourself.

And then you hit me with this:

@Ohoni.6057 said:

@Teamkiller.4315 said:So ohoni, i understand those aren't positives for you but you're not the center of the world.

Yes, and neither are you. Raiders already seem to be mostly fine with how raids are now, and if there are things they'd like changed, I mostly support that, but right now we're talking about the people for whom raids do NOT currently work, and making the mode more fun for

those

players. The changes I advocate for are in the service of that goal. I do not expect existing raiders to benefit significantly from those changes, but that is not the point of them.

That's just drawing a big ??? for me there.

The more I read these comments,the more I wonder if putting Legendary Envoy armor behind Raids was a good idea. Had they not thrown in the armor would many of us even be discussing any of this right now? Hypothetically speaking of course.

It was a positively horrible idea to do what they did.. and it is about the only thing that is bringing in new blood to the game mode.

Thankfully they had a bout of common sense and put in alternate paths to Legendary Armor.

I honestly don’t think people wouldn’t be complaining nearly as much, if they only kept the current raid skins you find now like the pieces of Dhuum’s armor, Matthias staff etc.

I mean Raids were designed to give people the challenge, no? That’s what the driving factor was, yes?

If you give non-raiders the envoy armor, do you really think they're going to be happy until they get Oblivion and everything else too?

And yet, I see no one complaining about oblivion or the Dhuum armor at all though. What I do see is people complaining about Envoy.

If Envoy wasn’t attached to raids, then I don’t think we would nearly have the problems we have been discussing about.

Why do casual non-raiders care about legendary armor? The ability to stat swap gear and runes is really only a benefit in more raids and t4 by allowing you to run more builds which only really matters in difficult content that challenges you anyway.

I like all things Legendary and I don’t raid, it’s honestly to keep my bag in check and trying out new fun builds.

[Tyson.5160]

@mortrialus.3062 said:

@Tyson.5160 said:

@Tyson.5160 said:

@mortrialus.3062 said:

@Tyson.5160 said:

@STIHL.2489 said:

@Tyson.5160 said:

@Teamkiller.4315 said:

@Ohoni.6057 said:I think you've made perfectly clear that

you

don't, nothing more.

I'm not going to allow you to get away with these extremely vague accusations. Moving the goalposts is where when you present an argument (or demand for proof), someone answers it, and you retroactively change said argument so the answer doesn't apply anymore. It's one of those fallacies that allows the user to (incorrectly) trick themselves into thinking they don't ever have to be wrong, which is what you're doing.

It's also what you did. You said someone's suggestion had no pros, I listed some pros, you say they weren't pros, I saw that's because you're only thinking of yourself.

And then you hit me with this:

@Ohoni.6057 said:

@Teamkiller.4315 said:So ohoni, i understand those aren't positives for you but you're not the center of the world.

Yes, and neither are you. Raiders already seem to be mostly fine with how raids are now, and if there are things they'd like changed, I mostly support that, but right now we're talking about the people for whom raids do NOT currently work, and making the mode more fun for

those

players. The changes I advocate for are in the service of that goal. I do not expect existing raiders to benefit significantly from those changes, but that is not the point of them.

That's just drawing a big ??? for me there.

The more I read these comments,the more I wonder if putting Legendary Envoy armor behind Raids was a good idea. Had they not thrown in the armor would many of us even be discussing any of this right now? Hypothetically speaking of course.

It was a positively horrible idea to do what they did.. and it is about the only thing that is bringing in new blood to the game mode.

Thankfully they had a bout of common sense and put in alternate paths to Legendary Armor.

I honestly don’t think people wouldn’t be complaining nearly as much, if they only kept the current raid skins you find now like the pieces of Dhuum’s armor, Matthias staff etc.

I mean Raids were designed to give people the challenge, no? That’s what the driving factor was, yes?

If you give non-raiders the envoy armor, do you really think they're going to be happy until they get Oblivion and everything else too?

And yet, I see no one complaining about oblivion or the Dhuum armor at all though. What I do see is people complaining about Envoy.

If Envoy wasn’t attached to raids, then I don’t think we would nearly have the problems we have been discussing about.

Why do casual non-raiders care about legendary armor? The ability to stat swap gear and runes is really only a benefit in more raids and t4 and CM fractals by allowing you to run more builds which only really matters in difficult content that challenges you anyway.

Same reason people get Legendary weapons...

[Ohoni.6057]

@"mortrialus.3062" said:Why do casual non-raiders care about legendary armor?

I think that some of the skins look cool.

As I've said numerous times, I couldn't really care much less about having "purple armor," and if they gave a method of earning the skins without the purple armor part that would be fine by me.

As for the stat-swapping though, really people who don't currently raid could benefit form it even more than raiders, since the raiders likely already have multiple sets of Ascended armor to kick around, while non-raiders likely have much less quality armor. Personally though, I'd prefer they just mover the PvE side of the game more towards the PvP side, in that you should be able to just pick a stat-set from a dropdown list of medallions, rather than needing to swap out entire sets of armor just to change stats. It would resolve a lot of these "meta" conversations if a poorly-geared player didn't have to go out and buy/make entirely new sets of armors to shift his build, but could instead just make a few clicks.

[nia.4725]

@Tyson.5160 said:

@mortrialus.3062 said:

@Tyson.5160 said:

@STIHL.2489 said:

@Tyson.5160 said:

@Teamkiller.4315 said:

@Ohoni.6057 said:I think you've made perfectly clear that

you

don't, nothing more.

I'm not going to allow you to get away with these extremely vague accusations. Moving the goalposts is where when you present an argument (or demand for proof), someone answers it, and you retroactively change said argument so the answer doesn't apply anymore. It's one of those fallacies that allows the user to (incorrectly) trick themselves into thinking they don't ever have to be wrong, which is what you're doing.

It's also what you did. You said someone's suggestion had no pros, I listed some pros, you say they weren't pros, I saw that's because you're only thinking of yourself.

And then you hit me with this:

@Ohoni.6057 said:

@Teamkiller.4315 said:So ohoni, i understand those aren't positives for you but you're not the center of the world.

Yes, and neither are you. Raiders already seem to be mostly fine with how raids are now, and if there are things they'd like changed, I mostly support that, but right now we're talking about the people for whom raids do NOT currently work, and making the mode more fun for

those

players. The changes I advocate for are in the service of that goal. I do not expect existing raiders to benefit significantly from those changes, but that is not the point of them.

That's just drawing a big ??? for me there.

The more I read these comments,the more I wonder if putting Legendary Envoy armor behind Raids was a good idea. Had they not thrown in the armor would many of us even be discussing any of this right now? Hypothetically speaking of course.

It was a positively horrible idea to do what they did.. and it is about the only thing that is bringing in new blood to the game mode.

Thankfully they had a bout of common sense and put in alternate paths to Legendary Armor.

I honestly don’t think people wouldn’t be complaining nearly as much, if they only kept the current raid skins you find now like the pieces of Dhuum’s armor, Matthias staff etc.

I mean Raids were designed to give people the challenge, no? That’s what the driving factor was, yes?

If you give non-raiders the envoy armor, do you really think they're going to be happy until they get Oblivion and everything else too?

And yet, I see no one complaining about oblivion or the Dhuum armor at all though. What I do see is people complaining about Envoy.

Few non-raiders know those skins exist.

[mortrialus.3062]

@Tyson.5160 said:

@mortrialus.3062 said:

@Tyson.5160 said:

@Tyson.5160 said:

@mortrialus.3062 said:

@Tyson.5160 said:

@STIHL.2489 said:

@Tyson.5160 said:

@Teamkiller.4315 said:

@Ohoni.6057 said:I think you've made perfectly clear that

you

don't, nothing more.

I'm not going to allow you to get away with these extremely vague accusations. Moving the goalposts is where when you present an argument (or demand for proof), someone answers it, and you retroactively change said argument so the answer doesn't apply anymore. It's one of those fallacies that allows the user to (incorrectly) trick themselves into thinking they don't ever have to be wrong, which is what you're doing.

It's also what you did. You said someone's suggestion had no pros, I listed some pros, you say they weren't pros, I saw that's because you're only thinking of yourself.

And then you hit me with this:

@Ohoni.6057 said:

@Teamkiller.4315 said:So ohoni, i understand those aren't positives for you but you're not the center of the world.

Yes, and neither are you. Raiders already seem to be mostly fine with how raids are now, and if there are things they'd like changed, I mostly support that, but right now we're talking about the people for whom raids do NOT currently work, and making the mode more fun for

those

players. The changes I advocate for are in the service of that goal. I do not expect existing raiders to benefit significantly from those changes, but that is not the point of them.

That's just drawing a big ??? for me there.

The more I read these comments,the more I wonder if putting Legendary Envoy armor behind Raids was a good idea. Had they not thrown in the armor would many of us even be discussing any of this right now? Hypothetically speaking of course.

It was a positively horrible idea to do what they did.. and it is about the only thing that is bringing in new blood to the game mode.

Thankfully they had a bout of common sense and put in alternate paths to Legendary Armor.

I honestly don’t think people wouldn’t be complaining nearly as much, if they only kept the current raid skins you find now like the pieces of Dhuum’s armor, Matthias staff etc.

I mean Raids were designed to give people the challenge, no? That’s what the driving factor was, yes?

If you give non-raiders the envoy armor, do you really think they're going to be happy until they get Oblivion and everything else too?

And yet, I see no one complaining about oblivion or the Dhuum armor at all though. What I do see is people complaining about Envoy.

If Envoy wasn’t attached to raids, then I don’t think we would nearly have the problems we have been discussing about.

Why do casual non-raiders care about legendary armor? The ability to stat swap gear and runes is really only a benefit in more raids and t4 and CM fractals by allowing you to run more builds which only really matters in difficult content that challenges you anyway.

Same reason people get Legendary weapons...

Prestige. Which legendary weapons don't actually have.

I personally think each Legendary Weapons should have been gated behind a unique quest ending with a Liadri of the Concealing Darkness type of difficult boss.

[Tyson.5160]

@nia.4725 said:

@Tyson.5160 said:

@mortrialus.3062 said:

@Tyson.5160 said:

@STIHL.2489 said:

@Tyson.5160 said:

@Teamkiller.4315 said:

@Ohoni.6057 said:I think you've made perfectly clear that

you

don't, nothing more.

I'm not going to allow you to get away with these extremely vague accusations. Moving the goalposts is where when you present an argument (or demand for proof), someone answers it, and you retroactively change said argument so the answer doesn't apply anymore. It's one of those fallacies that allows the user to (incorrectly) trick themselves into thinking they don't ever have to be wrong, which is what you're doing.

It's also what you did. You said someone's suggestion had no pros, I listed some pros, you say they weren't pros, I saw that's because you're only thinking of yourself.

And then you hit me with this:

@Ohoni.6057 said:

@Teamkiller.4315 said:So ohoni, i understand those aren't positives for you but you're not the center of the world.

Yes, and neither are you. Raiders already seem to be mostly fine with how raids are now, and if there are things they'd like changed, I mostly support that, but right now we're talking about the people for whom raids do NOT currently work, and making the mode more fun for

those

players. The changes I advocate for are in the service of that goal. I do not expect existing raiders to benefit significantly from those changes, but that is not the point of them.

That's just drawing a big ??? for me there.

The more I read these comments,the more I wonder if putting Legendary Envoy armor behind Raids was a good idea. Had they not thrown in the armor would many of us even be discussing any of this right now? Hypothetically speaking of course.

It was a positively horrible idea to do what they did.. and it is about the only thing that is bringing in new blood to the game mode.

Thankfully they had a bout of common sense and put in alternate paths to Legendary Armor.

I honestly don’t think people wouldn’t be complaining nearly as much, if they only kept the current raid skins you find now like the pieces of Dhuum’s armor, Matthias staff etc.

I mean Raids were designed to give people the challenge, no? That’s what the driving factor was, yes?

If you give non-raiders the envoy armor, do you really think they're going to be happy until they get Oblivion and everything else too?

And yet, I see no one complaining about oblivion or the Dhuum armor at all though. What I do see is people complaining about Envoy.

Few non-raiders know those skins exist.

The thing is Nia, I know you would be raiding and still would be raiding even if there was no Envoy Armor as a reward because you have a genuine love for raiding, if memory serves me.

[Tyson.5160]

@mortrialus.3062 said:

@Tyson.5160 said:

@mortrialus.3062 said:

@Tyson.5160 said:

@Tyson.5160 said:

@mortrialus.3062 said:

@Tyson.5160 said:

@STIHL.2489 said:

@Tyson.5160 said:

@Teamkiller.4315 said:

@Ohoni.6057 said:I think you've made perfectly clear that

you

don't, nothing more.

I'm not going to allow you to get away with these extremely vague accusations. Moving the goalposts is where when you present an argument (or demand for proof), someone answers it, and you retroactively change said argument so the answer doesn't apply anymore. It's one of those fallacies that allows the user to (incorrectly) trick themselves into thinking they don't ever have to be wrong, which is what you're doing.

It's also what you did. You said someone's suggestion had no pros, I listed some pros, you say they weren't pros, I saw that's because you're only thinking of yourself.

And then you hit me with this:

@Ohoni.6057 said:

@Teamkiller.4315 said:So ohoni, i understand those aren't positives for you but you're not the center of the world.

Yes, and neither are you. Raiders already seem to be mostly fine with how raids are now, and if there are things they'd like changed, I mostly support that, but right now we're talking about the people for whom raids do NOT currently work, and making the mode more fun for

those

players. The changes I advocate for are in the service of that goal. I do not expect existing raiders to benefit significantly from those changes, but that is not the point of them.

That's just drawing a big ??? for me there.

The more I read these comments,the more I wonder if putting Legendary Envoy armor behind Raids was a good idea. Had they not thrown in the armor would many of us even be discussing any of this right now? Hypothetically speaking of course.

It was a positively horrible idea to do what they did.. and it is about the only thing that is bringing in new blood to the game mode.

Thankfully they had a bout of common sense and put in alternate paths to Legendary Armor.

I honestly don’t think people wouldn’t be complaining nearly as much, if they only kept the current raid skins you find now like the pieces of Dhuum’s armor, Matthias staff etc.

I mean Raids were designed to give people the challenge, no? That’s what the driving factor was, yes?

If you give non-raiders the envoy armor, do you really think they're going to be happy until they get Oblivion and everything else too?

And yet, I see no one complaining about oblivion or the Dhuum armor at all though. What I do see is people complaining about Envoy.

If Envoy wasn’t attached to raids, then I don’t think we would nearly have the problems we have been discussing about.

Why do casual non-raiders care about legendary armor? The ability to stat swap gear and runes is really only a benefit in more raids and t4 and CM fractals by allowing you to run more builds which only really matters in difficult content that challenges you anyway.

Same reason people get Legendary weapons...

Prestige. Which legendary weapons don't actually have.

I personally think each Legendary Weapons should have been gated behind a unique quest ending with a Liadri of the Concealing Darkness type of difficult boss.

You get prestige by having the Dhuum throne or a title.

[IndigoSundown.5419]

@"Tyson.5160" said:

If Envoy wasn’t attached to raids, then I don’t think we would nearly have the problems we have been discussing about.

I don't think so.

Take it as a given that ANet would have had to put desirable, exclusive rewards into raids. That's part of the whole hard-content package from other games. It was way too late to wean people from that expectation before GW2 even launched. Not only has that ship sailed, it's arrived at its destination.

Given desirable, exclusive rewards, somebody who doesn't like raids as is would have wanted them. It might even be the same people who claim to want Envoy. You can take that as a given, also.

This "discussion" is about a fundamental conflict between a demographic that wants to do hard content and get exclusive rewards and a different demographic that doesn't want to do that hard content but wants the same rewards. It has played out in every MMO forum I've ever seen, with pretty much only the proper nouns changing.

[mortrialus.3062]

@Tyson.5160 said:

@mortrialus.3062 said:

@Tyson.5160 said:

@mortrialus.3062 said:

@Tyson.5160 said:

@Tyson.5160 said:

@mortrialus.3062 said:

@Tyson.5160 said:

@STIHL.2489 said:

@Tyson.5160 said:

@Teamkiller.4315 said:

@Ohoni.6057 said:I think you've made perfectly clear that

you

don't, nothing more.

I'm not going to allow you to get away with these extremely vague accusations. Moving the goalposts is where when you present an argument (or demand for proof), someone answers it, and you retroactively change said argument so the answer doesn't apply anymore. It's one of those fallacies that allows the user to (incorrectly) trick themselves into thinking they don't ever have to be wrong, which is what you're doing.

It's also what you did. You said someone's suggestion had no pros, I listed some pros, you say they weren't pros, I saw that's because you're only thinking of yourself.

And then you hit me with this:

@Ohoni.6057 said:

@Teamkiller.4315 said:So ohoni, i understand those aren't positives for you but you're not the center of the world.

Yes, and neither are you. Raiders already seem to be mostly fine with how raids are now, and if there are things they'd like changed, I mostly support that, but right now we're talking about the people for whom raids do NOT currently work, and making the mode more fun for

those

players. The changes I advocate for are in the service of that goal. I do not expect existing raiders to benefit significantly from those changes, but that is not the point of them.

That's just drawing a big ??? for me there.

The more I read these comments,the more I wonder if putting Legendary Envoy armor behind Raids was a good idea. Had they not thrown in the armor would many of us even be discussing any of this right now? Hypothetically speaking of course.

It was a positively horrible idea to do what they did.. and it is about the only thing that is bringing in new blood to the game mode.

Thankfully they had a bout of common sense and put in alternate paths to Legendary Armor.

I honestly don’t think people wouldn’t be complaining nearly as much, if they only kept the current raid skins you find now like the pieces of Dhuum’s armor, Matthias staff etc.

I mean Raids were designed to give people the challenge, no? That’s what the driving factor was, yes?

If you give non-raiders the envoy armor, do you really think they're going to be happy until they get Oblivion and everything else too?

And yet, I see no one complaining about oblivion or the Dhuum armor at all though. What I do see is people complaining about Envoy.

If Envoy wasn’t attached to raids, then I don’t think we would nearly have the problems we have been discussing about.

Why do casual non-raiders care about legendary armor? The ability to stat swap gear and runes is really only a benefit in more raids and t4 and CM fractals by allowing you to run more builds which only really matters in difficult content that challenges you anyway.

Same reason people get Legendary weapons...

Prestige. Which legendary weapons don't actually have.

I personally think each Legendary Weapons should have been gated behind a unique quest ending with a Liadri of the Concealing Darkness type of difficult boss.

You get prestige by having the Dhuum throne or a title.

Nah. Anyone can buy the Dhuum Throne. It doesn't actually mean anything. The title does have prestige though because it shows an actual accomplishment.

[nia.4725]

@mortrialus.3062 said:

@Tyson.5160 said:

@mortrialus.3062 said:

@Tyson.5160 said:

@mortrialus.3062 said:

@Tyson.5160 said:

@Tyson.5160 said:

@mortrialus.3062 said:

@Tyson.5160 said:

@STIHL.2489 said:

@Tyson.5160 said:

@Teamkiller.4315 said:

@Ohoni.6057 said:I think you've made perfectly clear that

you

don't, nothing more.

I'm not going to allow you to get away with these extremely vague accusations. Moving the goalposts is where when you present an argument (or demand for proof), someone answers it, and you retroactively change said argument so the answer doesn't apply anymore. It's one of those fallacies that allows the user to (incorrectly) trick themselves into thinking they don't ever have to be wrong, which is what you're doing.

It's also what you did. You said someone's suggestion had no pros, I listed some pros, you say they weren't pros, I saw that's because you're only thinking of yourself.

And then you hit me with this:

@Ohoni.6057 said:

@Teamkiller.4315 said:So ohoni, i understand those aren't positives for you but you're not the center of the world.

Yes, and neither are you. Raiders already seem to be mostly fine with how raids are now, and if there are things they'd like changed, I mostly support that, but right now we're talking about the people for whom raids do NOT currently work, and making the mode more fun for

those

players. The changes I advocate for are in the service of that goal. I do not expect existing raiders to benefit significantly from those changes, but that is not the point of them.

That's just drawing a big ??? for me there.

The more I read these comments,the more I wonder if putting Legendary Envoy armor behind Raids was a good idea. Had they not thrown in the armor would many of us even be discussing any of this right now? Hypothetically speaking of course.

It was a positively horrible idea to do what they did.. and it is about the only thing that is bringing in new blood to the game mode.

Thankfully they had a bout of common sense and put in alternate paths to Legendary Armor.

I honestly don’t think people wouldn’t be complaining nearly as much, if they only kept the current raid skins you find now like the pieces of Dhuum’s armor, Matthias staff etc.

I mean Raids were designed to give people the challenge, no? That’s what the driving factor was, yes?

If you give non-raiders the envoy armor, do you really think they're going to be happy until they get Oblivion and everything else too?

And yet, I see no one complaining about oblivion or the Dhuum armor at all though. What I do see is people complaining about Envoy.

If Envoy wasn’t attached to raids, then I don’t think we would nearly have the problems we have been discussing about.

Why do casual non-raiders care about legendary armor? The ability to stat swap gear and runes is really only a benefit in more raids and t4 and CM fractals by allowing you to run more builds which only really matters in difficult content that challenges you anyway.

Same reason people get Legendary weapons...

Prestige. Which legendary weapons don't actually have.

I personally think each Legendary Weapons should have been gated behind a unique quest ending with a Liadri of the Concealing Darkness type of difficult boss.

You get prestige by having the Dhuum throne or a title.

Nah. Anyone can buy the Dhuum Throne. The title does have prestige though because it shows an actual accomplishment.

But it can be bought and a lot of people used an exploit, in reality it does not mean a thing. Sadly.

[Tyson.5160]

@IndigoSundown.5419 said:

@Tyson.5160 said:

If Envoy wasn’t attached to raids, then I don’t think we would nearly have the problems we have been discussing about.

I don't think so.

Take it as a given that ANet would have had to put desirable, exclusive rewards into raids. That's part of the whole hard-content package from other games.

Sure, it’s called Oblivion, Matthias staff, all the different weapons from the bosses, those are your exclusive rewards.

My understanding is that people wanted a challenge, cool give it to them. Give them some exclusive rewards. Sure, however, slapping Envoy in there was a mistake in my opinion.

[mortrialus.3062]

@Ohoni.6057 said:

@"mortrialus.3062" said:Why do casual non-raiders care about legendary armor?

I think that some of the skins look cool.

As I've said numerous times, I couldn't really care much less about having "purple armor," and if they gave a method of earning the skins

without

the purple armor part that would be fine by me.

As for the stat-swapping though, really people who don't currently raid could benefit form it even more than raiders, since the raiders likely already have multiple sets of Ascended armor to kick around, while non-raiders likely have much less quality armor. Personally though, I'd prefer they just mover the PvE side of the game more towards the PvP side, in that you should be able to just pick a stat-set from a dropdown list of medallions, rather than needing to swap out entire sets of armor just to change stats. It would resolve a lot of these "meta" conversations if a poorly-geared player didn't have to go out and buy/make entirely new sets of armors to shift his build, but could instead just make a few clicks.

How would you benefit from legendary armor more than a raider if you don't do content where there isn't any need to worry about your build or character's performance and has no chance of failure?

[maddoctor.2738]

@"STIHL.2489" said:And he said is that they are "really unique when you look at traditional Raids" at no point did he mention they were supposed to be as difficult as Raids, or be Raid Like Content, nor did he say they were going to be GW2's equal to raids in other games.

How are you misinterpreting "are meant to attract the crowd that would normally be raiding in other MMOs"???Have a problem understanding such a simple phrase???

[Feanor.2358]

@vesica tempestas.1563 said:lol i need to look at this envoy armor again (i thought it was a bit ugly tbh), people are SO VERY VERY DESPERATE to keep it all for themselves/get it through some other content, it must be a glorious gamechanger!

Not the point. You set the bar at a given height and you offer an award to anyone who jumps it. Then you lower it by half and offer the same reward? How do you suppose those who trained for weeks and months to be able to jump its original height would feel? The reward itself does not matter. But everything it stands for does.

[mortrialus.3062]

@Ohoni.6057 said:

@"Roxhemar.6039" said:They don't. You raid because you want the challenge and the thrill of besting some of the hardest content that the game has to offer, if that's not your cup of tea, then try dungeons or open-world.

I agree that the current raids aren't for everyone and shouldn't be, but they

are

the only way to explore those instances, and the only way to earn those rewards, and so long as these things remain true, "they just aren't for you" cannot apply. There need to be

alternatives

balanced for players who do not seek out "the challenge and the thrill of besting some of the hardest content that the game has to offer."

World of Warcraft, made the mistake of 'easy mode' raids, and while it included more people, it allowed those already outside that circle to belittle those in the new one and thus, create an even more toxic experience for all involved. In other words, it was a failure, a flop.

I would rather be "belittled" by existing raiders for playing easy mode (which I already am), than to not be able to participate in an easy mode at all.

And when WoW added easy mode to raids they lost 2/3 of their audience over the following years, largely to private servers where the older less accessible versions of the game are run.

@maddoctor.2738 said:

@"STIHL.2489" said:And he said is that they are "really unique when you look at traditional Raids" at no point did he mention they were supposed to be as difficult as Raids, or be Raid Like Content, nor did he say they were going to be GW2's equal to raids in other games.

How are you misinterpreting "

are meant to attract the crowd that would normally be raiding in other MMOs

"???Have a problem understanding such a simple phrase???Careful or you'll tempt him into getting another warning because he can't resist calling you a toxic elitist.

[Ohoni.6057]

@mortrialus.3062 said:Prestige. Which legendary weapons don't actually have.

. . .

exactly.

Legendary weapons do not have prestige, so obviously that's not why people go for them. People go for them because they let you fire cluster unicorns at enemies and cause your Daredevil to be a flippy rainbow.

I personally think each Legendary Weapons should have been gated behind a unique quest ending with a Liadri of the Concealing Darkness type of difficult boss.

And that's why you don't work in game design, because that game would have like 10K players within a few months.

How would you benefit from legendary armor more than a raider if you don't do content where there isn't any need to worry about your build or character's performance and has no chance of failure?

How would a raider benefit if he already has all the armor sets he would need because he needed them to get the Legendary armor in the first place?

But like I said, the convenience of purple armor is nice and all, but it's not the point. The point is Envoy skins.

@Feanor.2358 said:

@vesica tempestas.1563 said:lol i need to look at this envoy armor again (i thought it was a bit ugly tbh), people are SO VERY VERY DESPERATE to keep it all for themselves/get it through some other content, it must be a glorious gamechanger!

Not the point. You set the bar at a given height and you offer an award to anyone who jumps it. Then you lower it by half and offer the same reward?

Yes, because that is how everything has always worked throughout all of human history.

Exactly like that.

How do you suppose those who trained for weeks and months to be able to jump its original height would feel?

Probably fine, because they already got what they got, and other people having it too takes none of that away from them. They know what they did to earn it, and that's all that matters. If they're too selfish for that to be enough for them, then who cares how they feel about it? They sound pretty awful.

[Ohoni.6057]

@mortrialus.3062 said:

@Ohoni.6057 said:

@"Roxhemar.6039" said:They don't. You raid because you want the challenge and the thrill of besting some of the hardest content that the game has to offer, if that's not your cup of tea, then try dungeons or open-world.

I agree that the current raids aren't for everyone and shouldn't be, but they

are

the only way to explore those instances, and the only way to earn those rewards, and so long as these things remain true, "they just aren't for you" cannot apply. There need to be

alternatives

balanced for players who do not seek out "the challenge and the thrill of besting some of the hardest content that the game has to offer."

World of Warcraft, made the mistake of 'easy mode' raids, and while it included more people, it allowed those already outside that circle to belittle those in the new one and thus, create an even more toxic experience for all involved. In other words, it was a failure, a flop.

I would rather be "belittled" by existing raiders for playing easy mode (which I already am), than to not be able to participate in an easy mode at all.

And when WoW added easy mode to raids they lost 2/3 of their audience over the following years, largely to private servers where the older less accessible versions of the game are run.

Lol, no. They lost customers since their prime, yeah, but to other MMOs that were newer and fresher (or to mobile games). That they've held on to as many customers as they have for as long as they have is miraculous, not a sign of failure. The amount of people playing on free private servers is a drop in the bucket when compared to the numbers still paying to play WoW, which should be taken as a sign that they're doing something very right.

[Brynioch.1873]

@Ohoni.6057 said:

@mortrialus.3062 said:

@Ohoni.6057 said:

@"Roxhemar.6039" said:They don't. You raid because you want the challenge and the thrill of besting some of the hardest content that the game has to offer, if that's not your cup of tea, then try dungeons or open-world.

I agree that the current raids aren't for everyone and shouldn't be, but they

are

the only way to explore those instances, and the only way to earn those rewards, and so long as these things remain true, "they just aren't for you" cannot apply. There need to be

alternatives

balanced for players who do not seek out "the challenge and the thrill of besting some of the hardest content that the game has to offer."

World of Warcraft, made the mistake of 'easy mode' raids, and while it included more people, it allowed those already outside that circle to belittle those in the new one and thus, create an even more toxic experience for all involved. In other words, it was a failure, a flop.

I would rather be "belittled" by existing raiders for playing easy mode (which I already am), than to not be able to participate in an easy mode at all.

And when WoW added easy mode to raids they lost 2/3 of their audience over the following years, largely to private servers where the older less accessible versions of the game are run.

Lol, no. They lost customers since their prime, yeah, but to other MMOs that were newer and fresher (or to mobile games). That they've held on to as many customers as they have for as long as they have is

miraculous,

not a sign of failure. The amount of people playing on

free

private servers is a drop in the bucket when compared to the numbers still

paying

to play WoW, which should be taken as a sign that they're doing something very right.

There is something that's called sunken cost fallacy. The longer people played, the higher the chance they will stay regardless what happens. It is actually not that hard to maintain a userbase once you got big enough. Just look at Lineage II.

[Feanor.2358]

@Ohoni.6057 said:

@Feanor.2358 said:

@vesica tempestas.1563 said:lol i need to look at this envoy armor again (i thought it was a bit ugly tbh), people are SO VERY VERY DESPERATE to keep it all for themselves/get it through some other content, it must be a glorious gamechanger!

Not the point. You set the bar at a given height and you offer an award to anyone who jumps it. Then you lower it by half and offer the same reward?

Yes, because that is how everything has always worked throughout all of human history.

Exactly

like that.

Really? So how come I don't get a Formula 1 world champion's cup for driving to work?

[mortrialus.3062]

@Ohoni.6057 said:

@mortrialus.3062 said:

@Ohoni.6057 said:

@"Roxhemar.6039" said:They don't. You raid because you want the challenge and the thrill of besting some of the hardest content that the game has to offer, if that's not your cup of tea, then try dungeons or open-world.

I agree that the current raids aren't for everyone and shouldn't be, but they

are

the only way to explore those instances, and the only way to earn those rewards, and so long as these things remain true, "they just aren't for you" cannot apply. There need to be

alternatives

balanced for players who do not seek out "the challenge and the thrill of besting some of the hardest content that the game has to offer."

World of Warcraft, made the mistake of 'easy mode' raids, and while it included more people, it allowed those already outside that circle to belittle those in the new one and thus, create an even more toxic experience for all involved. In other words, it was a failure, a flop.

I would rather be "belittled" by existing raiders for playing easy mode (which I already am), than to not be able to participate in an easy mode at all.

And when WoW added easy mode to raids they lost 2/3 of their audience over the following years, largely to private servers where the older less accessible versions of the game are run.

Lol, no. They lost customers since their prime, yeah, but to other MMOs that were newer and fresher (or to mobile games). That they've held on to as many customers as they have for as long as they have is

miraculous,

not a sign of failure. The amount of people playing on

free

private servers is a drop in the bucket when compared to the numbers still

paying

to play WoW, which should be taken as a sign that they're doing something very right.

Again, if you look at the number of active players there are more people playing on the less accessible WoW, BC, and WotLK private servers than current live World of Warcraft. This isn't just losing players to other games over time. They've lost players to the harder versions of the exact same game.

[tim.4596]

@Ohoni.6057 said:

@"tim.4596" said:I think, you're slightly deviating from the context of WHY exactly, you wish to have an easy mode. In my opinion, you should make a new post on the forum.I've been consistent as to why I think an easy mode is necessary. 1. To provide players a more casual access to the story and gameplay of the current raid instances, and 2. to provide players with more casual access to Envoy Armor and other rewards currently gated by raid participation.However, I'm still pretty strong on my idea that an easyMode would be wrong for the following reason. Your "No training" idea, is in my opinion a bit unrealistic. Players who do not have a basic understanding of how their class work, should definitely fail miserably.I agree,

for the hard mode.

The easy mode would be different though, with different expectations of the players. I believe that players who want "training runs," who want that sort of experience, should have that experience as an option, but I don't believe that it fits all players, and I don't believe that all players should

have

to be fit into it.

I think, I'll make a Guild and show you guys how easy the raids actually are and how fast we can potentially clear them. There has been an increasing amount of new players, and I'm sure a lot of them may want to start raiding at some point so it might be a good idea to make a Guild haha.Just like tag me in a comment and I'll add you hahaha. Or send me a mail in game :)

[Aligatohra.2745]

Yes please make different difficultys, i never raided and i want to get into it, but not without expierence or a guild that has to carry or teach me

[mortrialus.3062]

@tim.4596 said:

@IndigoSundown.5419 said:

@"STIHL.2489" said:

The game delivered exactly what is promised.. then this small vocal group started to raise a ruckus that this game needed to be like other MMO's with more challenge, as opposed to just going off and playing those other MMO's.. they ruined this one.

Selective memory, or just making assumptions?

https://www.eurogamer.net/articles/2011-09-27-guild-wars-2-preview?page=3

How is referring an article from 2011 relevant at all? Things evolve and change, that's the general order of things in life...

Things evolve and change, but when people say stuff like "GW2 was never meant to have challenge" they're objectively wrong and should be shown as much. The game was always intended to have challenging content and Arenanet experimented with it repeatedly over the years until they finally got it right with raids.

[nia.4725]

@tim.4596 said:

@IndigoSundown.5419 said:

@"STIHL.2489" said:

The game delivered exactly what is promised.. then this small vocal group started to raise a ruckus that this game needed to be like other MMO's with more challenge, as opposed to just going off and playing those other MMO's.. they ruined this one.

Selective memory, or just making assumptions?

https://www.eurogamer.net/articles/2011-09-27-guild-wars-2-preview?page=3

How is referring an article from 2011 relevant at all? Things evolve and change, that's the general order of things in life...

It was used to explain that Anet always intended to have challenging content such as raids, ofc it's relevant.