Do raids need easy/normal/hard difficulty mode? [merged]

[maddoctor.2738]

@tim.4596 said:

@IndigoSundown.5419 said:

@"STIHL.2489" said:

The game delivered exactly what is promised.. then this small vocal group started to raise a ruckus that this game needed to be like other MMO's with more challenge, as opposed to just going off and playing those other MMO's.. they ruined this one.

Selective memory, or just making assumptions?

https://www.eurogamer.net/articles/2011-09-27-guild-wars-2-preview?page=3

How is referring an article from 2011 relevant at all? Things evolve and change, that's the general order of things in life...

The interview I posted is from Apr 26, 2012http://pc.gamespy.com/pc/guild-wars-2/1223876p1.htmlThings evolve yes, but the intent is clear, so anyone claiming that "the game was never supposed to be challenging" is failing at reading. They intended to give us challenging instanced content on release and for a little while they succeeded and dungeons were indeed called "exceptionally hard". Until the community figured out the zerker/stack meta.

Remember the Young Karka? They were much harder than any mob available at release (outside Dungeons)The Molten Alliance, especially the Molten Brawlers, the Toxic Alliance, the Twisted Watchwork minions, the original (Silverwastes/Dry Top) Mordrem minions. Remember the Mordrem Thrashers that could only be damaged when hit from behind, or the Mordrem Wolves that could one-shot you if hit from the back and also used retaliation?They were all mobs of a much higher difficulty than anything seen on release. And I need to say those mobs weren't easier than Heart of Thorns mobs. Months of brainless farming/grinding in huge blob during the content drought made this community stupid and we got all the complaints at Heart of Thorns being "too hard", when in reality, it wasn't really harder than previous LS content.

And besides the individual mobs, Triple Trouble, revamp of Tequatl and Shatterer, Tower of Nightmares, Twisted Marionette, Battle on the Breechmaker and so on were all attempts at making challenging content in the open world. They tried to up the challenge numerous times, but it wasn't working very well. There were still lots of complaints, for every person praising Marionette there was one calling it horrible. The logical choice was to separate the players and that's done by using instances.

[tim.4596]

@mortrialus.3062 said:

@Ohoni.6057 said:

@mortrialus.3062 said:

@Ohoni.6057 said:

@"Roxhemar.6039" said:They don't. You raid because you want the challenge and the thrill of besting some of the hardest content that the game has to offer, if that's not your cup of tea, then try dungeons or open-world.

I agree that the current raids aren't for everyone and shouldn't be, but they

are

the only way to explore those instances, and the only way to earn those rewards, and so long as these things remain true, "they just aren't for you" cannot apply. There need to be

alternatives

balanced for players who do not seek out "the challenge and the thrill of besting some of the hardest content that the game has to offer."

World of Warcraft, made the mistake of 'easy mode' raids, and while it included more people, it allowed those already outside that circle to belittle those in the new one and thus, create an even more toxic experience for all involved. In other words, it was a failure, a flop.

I would rather be "belittled" by existing raiders for playing easy mode (which I already am), than to not be able to participate in an easy mode at all.

And when WoW added easy mode to raids they lost 2/3 of their audience over the following years, largely to private servers where the older less accessible versions of the game are run.

Lol, no. They lost customers since their prime, yeah, but to other MMOs that were newer and fresher (or to mobile games). That they've held on to as many customers as they have for as long as they have is

miraculous,

not a sign of failure. The amount of people playing on

free

private servers is a drop in the bucket when compared to the numbers still

paying

to play WoW, which should be taken as a sign that they're doing something very right.

Again, if you look at the number of active players there

are more people playing

on

the less accessible

WoW, BC, and WotLK private servers than current live World of Warcraft. This isn't just losing players to other games over time. They've lost players to the harder versions of the

exact same game

.

I'm not entirely sure what you are talking about, I would say that if you are willing to take it up to Mythic challenge, World of Warcraft is harder than ever. People felt like the difficulty was hard during BC was mostly because, 1. You couldn't access the later raid if you had not clear the end Boss of the previous Raid. Black Temple, was only accessible if you had killed T5 Boss, who were extremely hard at the time. 2. there were less addons existing, people were getting into MMORPG mostly (well that's not entirely true, Everquest, Dark Age of Camelot and so on existed but they were very different to WoW), and to be fair, most players didn't know how to play their class very well.

Same for Wotlk, 10Man Heroic Ice Citadel was okayish, 25Man was where the real challenge was at, but it's still easier than the current Boss fights. It's just that people are used to most mechanics by now as they seemed to repeat themselves in WoW. Like Kungen was talking about in one of his twitch, the main problem with WoW is that the game has been existing for too long and developers fail to create any NEW mechanics.

GW2 on the other hand, is having a lot of interesting mechanics that developers come up with. I'd say up to some point it's quality over quantity content. Even if I believe there should be a bit more raids :D

[Ohoni.6057]

@"Miellyn.6847" said:There is something that's called sunken cost fallacy. The longer people played, the higher the chance they will stay regardless what happens.

To a point, but plenty of people quit MMOs, especially ones with subscriptions. I mean if "sunk cost" was a panacea like you claim then there would be hundreds of MMOs out there with 500K+ subscribers. That alone can't cover WoW's success in the marketplace.

Just look at Lineage II.

Lineage II is pretty weak in the US markets, but it's always been a big deal in Korea, it works for them, and that's fine.

@"Feanor.2358" said:Really? So how come I don't get a Formula 1 world champion's cup for driving to work?

If you want one, I'm sure you could get a replica made that would look just like it. We aren't talking about torphies though, we're talking about something you grind towards, Legendary armor. It's a purchase anyone can make, not just a symbol of "the best of the best." The only items in GW2 that meet that definition would be the top PvP rewards.

@mortrialus.3062 said:Again, if you look at the number of active players there are more people playing on the less accessible WoW, BC, and WotLK private servers than current live World of Warcraft.

Source? That doesn't match any data I can find.

@tim.4596 said:I think, I'll make a Guild and show you guys how easy the raids actually are and how fast we can potentially clear them.

I don't doubt a word you've said. Just understand that the experience you describe as a good thing, we wouldn't enjoy. That's not what we're looking for here.

[Ohoni.6057]

@maddoctor.2738 said:Remember the Young Karka? They were much harder than any mob available at release (outside Dungeons)

Yeah, I remember people really did not like them.

[Feanor.2358]

@Ohoni.6057 said:We aren't talking about torphies though, we're talking about something you grind towards, Legendary armor.

So go ahead and grind it.

[maddoctor.2738]

@Ohoni.6057 said:

@maddoctor.2738 said:Remember the Young Karka? They were much harder than any mob available at release (outside Dungeons)

Yeah, I remember people

really

did not like them.

True, those who didn't know how to dodge (or use projectile reflection). Shocking, a mob that requires some thought to fight!

[mortrialus.3062]

@tim.4596 said:

@mortrialus.3062 said:

@Ohoni.6057 said:

@mortrialus.3062 said:

@Ohoni.6057 said:

@"Roxhemar.6039" said:They don't. You raid because you want the challenge and the thrill of besting some of the hardest content that the game has to offer, if that's not your cup of tea, then try dungeons or open-world.

I agree that the current raids aren't for everyone and shouldn't be, but they

are

the only way to explore those instances, and the only way to earn those rewards, and so long as these things remain true, "they just aren't for you" cannot apply. There need to be

alternatives

balanced for players who do not seek out "the challenge and the thrill of besting some of the hardest content that the game has to offer."

World of Warcraft, made the mistake of 'easy mode' raids, and while it included more people, it allowed those already outside that circle to belittle those in the new one and thus, create an even more toxic experience for all involved. In other words, it was a failure, a flop.

I would rather be "belittled" by existing raiders for playing easy mode (which I already am), than to not be able to participate in an easy mode at all.

And when WoW added easy mode to raids they lost 2/3 of their audience over the following years, largely to private servers where the older less accessible versions of the game are run.

Lol, no. They lost customers since their prime, yeah, but to other MMOs that were newer and fresher (or to mobile games). That they've held on to as many customers as they have for as long as they have is

miraculous,

not a sign of failure. The amount of people playing on

free

private servers is a drop in the bucket when compared to the numbers still

paying

to play WoW, which should be taken as a sign that they're doing something very right.

Again, if you look at the number of active players there

are more people playing

on

the less accessible

WoW, BC, and WotLK private servers than current live World of Warcraft. This isn't just losing players to other games over time. They've lost players to the harder versions of the

exact same game

.

I'm not entirely sure what you are talking about, I would say that if you are willing to take it up to Mythic challenge, World of Warcraft is harder than ever. People felt like the difficulty was hard during BC was mostly because, 1. You couldn't access the later raid if you had not clear the end Boss of the previous Raid. Black Temple, was only accessible if you had killed T5 Boss, who were extremely hard at the time. 2. there were less addons existing, people were getting into MMORPG mostly (well that's not entirely true, Everquest, Dark Age of Camelot and so on existed but they were very different to WoW), and to be fair, most players didn't know how to play their class very well.

Same for Wotlk, 10Man Heroic Ice Citadel was okayish, 25Man was where the real challenge was at, but it's still easier than the current Boss fights. It's just that people are used to most mechanics by now as they seemed to repeat themselves in WoW. Like Kungen was talking about in one of his twitch, the main problem with WoW is that the game has been existing for too long and developers fail to create any

NEW

mechanics.

GW2 on the other hand, is having a lot of interesting mechanics that developers come up with. I'd say up to some point it's quality over quantity content. Even if I believe there should be a bit more raids :D

Except no one cares about Mythic. Because if they can't do Mythic they can just do Heroic. And if they can't do Heroic they'll just do normal. And if they can't do normal they'll just do easy. Kind of like how no one cares about doing unarmed only runs of Dark Souls by and large. No one ever has or ever will care about Argus the Unmaker or Garrosh, or Ragnaros 2.0 the way they cared about Ragnaros or Illidan. Because while maybe mechanically Mythic Argus is technically harder than Ragnaros or Illdian, since there's no minimum bar for entry and everyone is guaranteed to see him no one cares.

[Feanor.2358]

See, you can either complain raids are too hard for you or claim their rewards are not trophies. But not both. Because at the moment you claim the raids are too hard for you, you assign some external meaning to their rewards. Which makes them trophies. And while you can make a replica of the physical trophy, you cannot make a replica of its meaning. The same one you assigned to it.

[Tyson.5160]

@mortrialus.3062 said:

Because while maybe mechanically Mythic Argus is technically harder than Ragnaros or Illdian, since there's no minimum bar for entry and everyone is guaranteed to see him no one cares.

I would consider this a bad thing, if no one saw the end boss.

Until two expansions come out and then you solo it.

[mortrialus.3062]

@Ohoni.6057 said:

@"mortrialus.3062" said:Prestige. Which legendary weapons don't actually have.

. . .

exactly.

Legendary weapons do

not

have prestige, so obviously that's

not

why people go for them. People go for them because they let you fire cluster unicorns at enemies and cause your Daredevil to be a flippy rainbow.

They were supposed to have prestige. Hence why they all required the intended to be difficult rewards from the Explorable Dungeons and were huge gold sinks on top of it and required a large amount of work in every area of the game except SPvP. They were meant to be extreme bling to show off how much time and gold you've invested in the game. And yeah, people absolutely go for them because they're the most expensive flashy thing in the game. Kind of like how you saw way more people actually running around with the Molten Jetpack back when it was the most expensive skin in the game.

I personally think each Legendary Weapons should have been gated behind a unique quest ending with a Liadri of the Concealing Darkness type of difficult boss.

And that's why you don't work in game design, because that game would have like 10K players within a few months.

1. You don't know that.
2. There are plenty of games that are far more demanding and difficult than GW2 and with more demanding exceptions of their players for prestigious items and with higher populations. You keep talking about WoW's easy mode raids but vanilla WoW has a high population on private servers than GW2 likely does and Legendary weapons were extremely rare RNG, required 40 man content, huge gold sinks and required 40 man raids to finish the final step of acquiring a legendary.
3. I think having lore and context and challenge would have made acquiring a legendary far more memorable for everyone. They tried to do that with the precursor collections but it was such an over designed mess they couldn't keep up with producing more legendaries. I think a more simple "Here's a quest, here's the lore behind your weapon and it's powers. He's a boss who serves as a gatekeeper to getting it" would have made all legendary weapons more meaningful.

How would you benefit from legendary armor more than a raider if you don't do content where there isn't any need to worry about your build or character's performance and has no chance of failure?

How would a raider benefit if he already has all the armor sets he would need because he needed them to get the Legendary armor in the first place?

Who says they have all the armor sets they need? Just because they managed to get 150 LI doesn't mean they have ascended Berserker+Viper gear for all three armor weights, Magi's Gear heavy and light armor gear for Hand Kiter Herald and Healing Tempest, Harrier Gear for Druids. And chances are Legendary Armor is going to serve you better because it'll open up more builds you can play making you more flexible for content where being flexible is actually helpful.

But like I said, the convenience of purple armor is nice and all, but it's not the point. The point is Envoy skins.And I'd wouldn't mind having whatever the Generation 2 Legendary Scepter unlocked right now for free without having to do anything for it. I wouldn't mind walking around with a God of PvP title. But I'm aware how unhealthy that would be for the game as a whole and for my own player retention in the game and either of those happening is playing into my own worst instincts that shouldn't be indulged. It is good in an MMORPG for there to be things that you want but don't have yet and can't have unless you do content. That's actually healthy for the game. What you're really advocating for is a return to when there was nothing to work for and no difficult content and endgame in GW2 was Silverwastes and the game was hemorrhaging players so badly they completely changed their model for releasing content to begin production on Heart of Thorns and get it out the gate as quickly as possible.

[mortrialus.3062]

@Tyson.5160 said:

@mortrialus.3062 said:

Because while maybe mechanically Mythic Argus is technically harder than Ragnaros or Illdian, since there's no minimum bar for entry and everyone is guaranteed to see him no one cares.

I would consider this a bad thing, if no one saw the end boss.

Until two expansions come out and then you solo it.

MMORPG's are intended to be endless. There is no final boss by definition. Only optional bosses.

@mortrialus.3062 said:Again, if you look at the number of active players there

are more people playing

on

the less accessible

WoW, BC, and WotLK private servers than current live World of Warcraft.

Source? That doesn't match any data I can find..Me. Going around looking at the most popular private servers and adding up active player numbers if the servers provide them and comparing it to the last reported subscriber count in WoW (Which it's almost certainly much lower than). There's a lot wrong with the data. For starters, we don't actually know how many subscribers WoW has anymore but it's certainly below 5 million otherwise they'd announce their subscriber count again. I can't tell if someone plays both the private server and live WoW at the same time. Private servers are also free so that can inflate their player base. A number of really popular private servers don't disclose this sort of information and can't be counted. This doesn't cover players with multiple accounts on either private or live. But no matter how you slice it, several million people of people are playing Vanilla, BC, and Wotlk.

[Tyson.5160]

@mortrialus.3062 said:

@Tyson.5160 said:

@mortrialus.3062 said:

Because while maybe mechanically Mythic Argus is technically harder than Ragnaros or Illdian, since there's no minimum bar for entry and everyone is guaranteed to see him no one cares.

I would consider this a bad thing, if no one saw the end boss.

Until two expansions come out and then you solo it.

MMORPG's are intended to be endless. There is no final boss by definition. Only optional bosses.

Sorry, I meant for the raid.

[Ohoni.6057]

@Feanor.2358 said:

@Ohoni.6057 said:We aren't talking about torphies though, we're talking about something you grind towards, Legendary armor.

So go ahead and grind it.

Again, I couldn't enjoy that. I'm trying to get them to add a method I could enjoy.

@maddoctor.2738 said:

@Ohoni.6057 said:

@maddoctor.2738 said:Remember the Young Karka? They were much harder than any mob available at release (outside Dungeons)

Yeah, I remember people

really

did not like them.

True, those who didn't know how to dodge (or use projectile reflection). Shocking, a mob that requires some thought to fight!

Exactly, one of the most important things is to know your audience "don't like that sort of thing" is GW2's audience.

@Feanor.2358 said:See, you can either complain raids are too hard for you or claim their rewards are not trophies.

Sure you can do both. They are too hard to enjoy, not too hard to achieve. Anyone can achieve them. I don't have any respect for someone who grinds out a reward that they haven't enjoyed.

And while you can make a replica of the physical trophy, you cannot make a replica of its meaning. The same one you assigned to it.

But that's the thing, I have zero interest in having "the meaning," the meaning that you choose to ascribe to it. A replica would do me just fine, since all I want is the surface appearance of the thing. I want the item not because it means anything, but because I think it looks cool. I've straight up said that I would be fine with getting the skins without the purple armor attached.

[Tyson.5160]

@Ohoni.6057 said:

@Feanor.2358 said:

@Ohoni.6057 said:We aren't talking about torphies though, we're talking about something you grind towards, Legendary armor.

So go ahead and grind it.

Again, I couldn't enjoy that. I'm trying to get them to add a method I could enjoy.

@maddoctor.2738 said:

@Ohoni.6057 said:

@maddoctor.2738 said:Remember the Young Karka? They were much harder than any mob available at release (outside Dungeons)

Yeah, I remember people

really

did not like them.

True, those who didn't know how to dodge (or use projectile reflection). Shocking, a mob that requires some thought to fight!

Exactly, one of the most important things is to know your audience "don't like that sort of thing" is GW2's audience.

@Feanor.2358 said:See, you can either complain raids are too hard for you or claim their rewards are not trophies.

Sure you can do both. They are too hard to

enjoy,

not too hard to

achieve.

Anyone can

achieve

them. I don't have any respect for someone who grinds out a reward that they haven't enjoyed.

And while you can make a replica of the physical trophy, you cannot make a replica of its meaning. The same one you assigned to it.

But that's the thing, I have zero interest in having "the meaning," the meaning that

you

choose to ascribe to it. A replica would do me just fine, since all I want is the surface appearance of the thing. I want the item not because it means anything, but because I think it looks cool. I've straight up said that I would be fine with getting the skins without the purple armor attached.

Gem store purchase 3000 gems a set.

[Ohoni.6057]

@mortrialus.3062 said:They were supposed to have prestige. Hence why they all required the intended to be difficult rewards from the Explorable Dungeons and were huge gold sinks on top of it and required a large amount of work in every area of the game except SPvP. They were meant to be extreme bling to show off how much time and gold you've invested in the game. And yeah, people absolutely go for them because they're the most expensive flashy thing in the game. Kind of like how you saw way more people actually running around with the Molten Jetpack back when it was the most expensive skin in the game.

Again, it has nothing to do with being expensive, it has to do with them being cool. You'd see just as many people running around with them even if they all came free.

Who says they have all the armor sets they need? Just because they managed to get 150 LI doesn't mean they have ascended Berserker+Viper gear for all three armor weights, Magi's Gear heavy and light armor gear for Hand Kiter Herald and Healing Tempest, Harrier Gear for Druids.

Getting all that would be cheaper than getting three sets of Envoy armor.

And I'd wouldn't mind having whatever the Generation 2 Legendary Scepter unlocked right now for free without having to do anything for it. I wouldn't mind walking around with a God of PvP title. But I'm aware how unhealthy that would be for the game as a whole and for my own player retention in the game and either of those happening is playing into my own worst instincts that shouldn't be indulged.

We aren't comparing that though, since nobody is asking to just be handed anything. It would still require hard work and dedication, at least as much as raiders currently put in, just in content that players would enjoy more. It would be MORE good for the game, because right now the majority of players have no way of meaningfully pursuing the Envoy armor, but with this change they could start. It would add long term goals for most players.

@Tyson.5160 said:

@Ohoni.6057 said:

@Feanor.2358 said:

@Ohoni.6057 said:We aren't talking about torphies though, we're talking about something you grind towards, Legendary armor.

So go ahead and grind it.

Again, I couldn't enjoy that. I'm trying to get them to add a method I could enjoy.

@maddoctor.2738 said:

@Ohoni.6057 said:

@maddoctor.2738 said:Remember the Young Karka? They were much harder than any mob available at release (outside Dungeons)

Yeah, I remember people

really

did not like them.

True, those who didn't know how to dodge (or use projectile reflection). Shocking, a mob that requires some thought to fight!

Exactly, one of the most important things is to know your audience "don't like that sort of thing" is GW2's audience.

@Feanor.2358 said:See, you can either complain raids are too hard for you or claim their rewards are not trophies.

Sure you can do both. They are too hard to

enjoy,

not too hard to

achieve.

Anyone can

achieve

them. I don't have any respect for someone who grinds out a reward that they haven't enjoyed.

And while you can make a replica of the physical trophy, you cannot make a replica of its meaning. The same one you assigned to it.

But that's the thing, I have zero interest in having "the meaning," the meaning that

you

choose to ascribe to it. A replica would do me just fine, since all I want is the surface appearance of the thing. I want the item not because it means anything, but because I think it looks cool. I've straight up said that I would be fine with getting the skins without the purple armor attached.

Gem store purchase 3000 gems a set.

I'd be fine with that. Better it go to ANet than to some raid-seller. I'd still want an easy mode so that I could play the content, but it wouldn't need to include Envoy armor.

[Brynioch.1873]

@Ohoni.6057 said:

@"Miellyn.6847" said:There is something that's called sunken cost fallacy. The longer people played, the higher the chance they will stay regardless what happens.

To a point, but plenty of people quit MMOs, especially ones with subscriptions. I mean if "sunk cost" was a panacea like you claim then there would be hundreds of MMOs out there with 500K+ subscribers. That alone can't cover WoW's success in the marketplace.

Sunken cost fallacy doesn't apply to games you played one month. It makes you less likely to quit the more money you invested in something. Like 8 to 10 years of WoW. It can't cover it alone but it is one of the biggest factors for WoW.

Just look at Lineage II.

Lineage II is pretty weak in the US markets, but it's always been a big deal in Korea, it works for them, and that's fine.

Yeah same age as WoW and pretty large userbase. WoW is not special.

[Tyson.5160]

@Ohoni.6057 said:

@mortrialus.3062 said:They were supposed to have prestige. Hence why they all required the intended to be difficult rewards from the Explorable Dungeons and were huge gold sinks on top of it and required a large amount of work in every area of the game except SPvP. They were meant to be extreme bling to show off how much time and gold you've invested in the game. And yeah, people absolutely go for them because they're the most expensive flashy thing in the game. Kind of like how you saw way more people actually running around with the Molten Jetpack back when it was the most expensive skin in the game.

Again, it has nothing to do with being expensive, it has to do with them being

cool.

You'd see just as many people running around with them even if they all came free.

Who says they have all the armor sets they need? Just because they managed to get 150 LI doesn't mean they have ascended Berserker+Viper gear for all three armor weights, Magi's Gear heavy and light armor gear for Hand Kiter Herald and Healing Tempest, Harrier Gear for Druids.

Getting all that would be cheaper than getting three sets of Envoy armor.

And I'd wouldn't mind having whatever the Generation 2 Legendary Scepter unlocked right now for free without having to do anything for it. I wouldn't mind walking around with a God of PvP title. But I'm aware how unhealthy that would be for the game as a whole and for my own player retention in the game and either of those happening is playing into my own worst instincts that shouldn't be indulged.

We aren't comparing that though, since nobody is asking to just be handed anything. It would still require hard work and dedication, at least as much as raiders currently put in, just in content that players would enjoy more. It would be MORE good for the game, because right now the majority of players have

no

way of meaningfully pursuing the Envoy armor, but with this change they could start. It would

add

long term goals for most players.

@Tyson.5160 said:

@Ohoni.6057 said:

@Feanor.2358 said:

@Ohoni.6057 said:We aren't talking about torphies though, we're talking about something you grind towards, Legendary armor.

So go ahead and grind it.

Again, I couldn't enjoy that. I'm trying to get them to add a method I could enjoy.

@maddoctor.2738 said:

@Ohoni.6057 said:

@maddoctor.2738 said:Remember the Young Karka? They were much harder than any mob available at release (outside Dungeons)

Yeah, I remember people

really

did not like them.

True, those who didn't know how to dodge (or use projectile reflection). Shocking, a mob that requires some thought to fight!

Exactly, one of the most important things is to know your audience "don't like that sort of thing" is GW2's audience.

@Feanor.2358 said:See, you can either complain raids are too hard for you or claim their rewards are not trophies.

Sure you can do both. They are too hard to

enjoy,

not too hard to

achieve.

Anyone can

achieve

them. I don't have any respect for someone who grinds out a reward that they haven't enjoyed.

And while you can make a replica of the physical trophy, you cannot make a replica of its meaning. The same one you assigned to it.

But that's the thing, I have zero interest in having "the meaning," the meaning that

you

choose to ascribe to it. A replica would do me just fine, since all I want is the surface appearance of the thing. I want the item not because it means anything, but because I think it looks cool. I've straight up said that I would be fine with getting the skins without the purple armor attached.

Gem store purchase 3000 gems a set.

I'd be fine with that. Better it go to ANet than to some raid-seller. I'd still want an easy mode so that I could play the content, but it wouldn't need to include Envoy armor.

Mind you it would be just the skin, so it’s not pay to win. Hell make it worth their time and make 4000 gems 50 bucks a pop, 150 for all 3. That would definitely make the profits go up.

[Brynioch.1873]

@Tyson.5160 said:

Mind you it would be just the skin, so it’s not pay to win. Hell make it worth their time and make 4000 gems 50 bucks a pop, 150 for all 3. That would definitely make the profits go up.

For a very short amount of time and it will never cover the amount of people leaving when they start to offer skins for gems that were actual rewards for ingame activities.

Do you all want this game to die so badly?

[maddoctor.2738]

@"Ohoni.6057" said:Exactly, one of the most important things is to know your audience "don't like that sort of thing" is GW2's audience.

Judging by how for the next 2 years they continued adding more and improved mobs, even harder than young karka, they know their audience, but apparently you don't.

[Tyson.5160]

@Miellyn.6847 said:

@Tyson.5160 said:

Mind you it would be just the skin, so it’s not pay to win. Hell make it worth their time and make 4000 gems 50 bucks a pop, 150 for all 3. That would definitely make the profits go up.

For a very short amount of time and it will never cover the amount of people leaving when they start to offer skins for gems that were actual rewards for ingame activities.

Do you all want this game to die so badly?

We are talking about the minority right? Besides the stat swap would still remain on the Envoy. Think of it like a mount skin.

If they see people throwing big dollars they may design new Legendary outfits as well because you know it brings in cash.

[Brynioch.1873]

@Tyson.5160 said:

@Miellyn.6847 said:

@Tyson.5160 said:

Mind you it would be just the skin, so it’s not pay to win. Hell make it worth their time and make 4000 gems 50 bucks a pop, 150 for all 3. That would definitely make the profits go up.

For a very short amount of time and it will never cover the amount of people leaving when they start to offer skins for gems that were actual rewards for ingame activities.

Do you all want this game to die so badly?

We are talking about the minority right? Besides the stat swap would still remain on the Envoy. Think of it like a mount skin.

If they see people throwing big dollars they may design new Legendary outfits as well.

No. We are talking about a Pandora's Box that should never be opened. Selling ingame rewards for gems. There are rewards designed for the gemstore and rewards obtainable only with ingame activities (buying materials with gems->gold is a side effect that will always happen unless everything needed is accountbound).

What's next? All legendary skins? WvW skins? sPvP skins? If you ever start people will demand more. It will kill the game.

[Tyson.5160]

@Miellyn.6847 said:

@Tyson.5160 said:

@Miellyn.6847 said:

@Tyson.5160 said:

Mind you it would be just the skin, so it’s not pay to win. Hell make it worth their time and make 4000 gems 50 bucks a pop, 150 for all 3. That would definitely make the profits go up.

For a very short amount of time and it will never cover the amount of people leaving when they start to offer skins for gems that were actual rewards for ingame activities.

Do you all want this game to die so badly?

We are talking about the minority right? Besides the stat swap would still remain on the Envoy. Think of it like a mount skin.

If they see people throwing big dollars they may design new Legendary outfits as well.

No. We are talking about a Pandora's Box that should never be opened. Selling ingame rewards for gems. There are rewards designed for the gemstore and rewards obtainable only with ingame activities (buying materials with gems->gold is a side effect that will always happen unless everything needed is accountbound).

What's next? All legendary skins? WvW skins? sPvP skins? If you ever start people will demand more. It will kill the game.

Anet could see some huge numbers especially if everyone buys all 3 sets. Would only be the skins, so no stat swap.

[Brynioch.1873]

@Tyson.5160 said:

@Miellyn.6847 said:

@Tyson.5160 said:

@Miellyn.6847 said:

@Tyson.5160 said:

Mind you it would be just the skin, so it’s not pay to win. Hell make it worth their time and make 4000 gems 50 bucks a pop, 150 for all 3. That would definitely make the profits go up.

For a very short amount of time and it will never cover the amount of people leaving when they start to offer skins for gems that were actual rewards for ingame activities.

Do you all want this game to die so badly?

We are talking about the minority right? Besides the stat swap would still remain on the Envoy. Think of it like a mount skin.

If they see people throwing big dollars they may design new Legendary outfits as well.

No. We are talking about a Pandora's Box that should never be opened. Selling ingame rewards for gems. There are rewards designed for the gemstore and rewards obtainable only with ingame activities (buying materials with gems->gold is a side effect that will always happen unless everything needed is accountbound).

What's next? All legendary skins? WvW skins? sPvP skins? If you ever start people will demand more. It will kill the game.

Anet could see some huge numbers especially if everyone buys all 3 sets.

Yes for one quarter. Than they will hit all time lows the next 3 years in a row.

[Voltekka.2375]

@Tyson.5160 said:

@Miellyn.6847 said:

@Tyson.5160 said:

@Miellyn.6847 said:

@Tyson.5160 said:

Mind you it would be just the skin, so it’s not pay to win. Hell make it worth their time and make 4000 gems 50 bucks a pop, 150 for all 3. That would definitely make the profits go up.

For a very short amount of time and it will never cover the amount of people leaving when they start to offer skins for gems that were actual rewards for ingame activities.

Do you all want this game to die so badly?

We are talking about the minority right? Besides the stat swap would still remain on the Envoy. Think of it like a mount skin.

If they see people throwing big dollars they may design new Legendary outfits as well.

No. We are talking about a Pandora's Box that should never be opened. Selling ingame rewards for gems. There are rewards designed for the gemstore and rewards obtainable only with ingame activities (buying materials with gems->gold is a side effect that will always happen unless everything needed is accountbound).

What's next? All legendary skins? WvW skins? sPvP skins? If you ever start people will demand more. It will kill the game.

Anet could see some huge numbers especially if everyone buys all 3 sets.

Those numbers will rise more if anet makes warbringer-2k wvw skins-ascension-ad infinitum-legendary weapon skins-sPVP leggy skins available in gemstore! Why stop at envoy armor? What can go wrong? Huge numbers!!

[Tyson.5160]

@Voltekka.2375 said:

@Tyson.5160 said:

@Miellyn.6847 said:

@Tyson.5160 said:

@Miellyn.6847 said:

@Tyson.5160 said:

Mind you it would be just the skin, so it’s not pay to win. Hell make it worth their time and make 4000 gems 50 bucks a pop, 150 for all 3. That would definitely make the profits go up.

For a very short amount of time and it will never cover the amount of people leaving when they start to offer skins for gems that were actual rewards for ingame activities.

Do you all want this game to die so badly?

We are talking about the minority right? Besides the stat swap would still remain on the Envoy. Think of it like a mount skin.

If they see people throwing big dollars they may design new Legendary outfits as well.

No. We are talking about a Pandora's Box that should never be opened. Selling ingame rewards for gems. There are rewards designed for the gemstore and rewards obtainable only with ingame activities (buying materials with gems->gold is a side effect that will always happen unless everything needed is accountbound).

What's next? All legendary skins? WvW skins? sPvP skins? If you ever start people will demand more. It will kill the game.

Anet could see some huge numbers especially if everyone buys all 3 sets.

Those numbers will rise more if anet makes warbringer-2k wvw skins-ascension-ad infinitum-legendary weapon skins-sPVP leggy skins available in gemstore! Why stop at envoy armor? What can go wrong? Huge numbers!!

Money makes the world go round. Make it rain.