Daredevil Does Not Exist

[Voramoz.6790]

Daredevil is the single worst elite specialization in the game. I think most people know this if they really think about it. Before I get into it, let me set the table just a little bit. I am an Engineer Main, and Engi is in a great place overall. In fact, I've played Engi for so long that I've really started to multiclass more into Revenant, Warrior, Ranger, Guardian, Necromancer, etc. In all, I think I have played the Thief class the least, but more so recently with Deadeye and Specter. I notice that the discussion of "class fantasies" has become a hot button for streamers and influencers lately.

Daredevil was launched as a brawler style of thief (thief/warrior). There is no Elite Specialization or Class that lives up to its class fantasy or efficacy less than Daredevil. Daredevil is the most tremendous flop in terms of delivering on its fantasy presentation to players. This thread is not merely an appraisal of the E-Spec as it is now but over its entire history since Daredevil's HOT launch. In PVP, Daredevil does not exist. From launch, Thieves have continued to run pre-HOT Dagger/Pistol Thief and taken Daredevil as a triple dodge trait line. That's not Daredevil, that's just Thief taking Daredevil as a trait line for what it adds to core D/P Thief. At no time has Staff or Brawler Thief crossed into the meta in PVP, nor have their Physical Skills. Staff Daredevil has only had the most fringe roamer potential in WVW, which does not address the core WVW experience. Deadeye and Specter completely outclass Daredevil, really in every game mode, but definitely in PVE, especially now that Deadeye and Specter are the quickness and alacrity specs for Thief. Now, with the addition of weaponmaster training, staff could become a thing for the entire class, to the detriment of the fantasy and features of the rest of the Daredevil E-Spec. Daredevil is a trait line taken to trait triple dodges and nothing more, and it's always been that way.

In short, Daredevil does not exist. What's more, it never has. There is no such thing as Daredevil, and there never has been. I want to reiterate that this post is not merely about the state of Daredevil right now but of its entire history since its launch with Heart of Thorns. I am not here to bash Devs, or the balance team, or to be disrespectful. I am also not here to suggest what needs to be done by the Devs, or how to implement it. I am not a Thief main, so maybe my opinion matters less than that of Thief mains. I only hope that Thief mains might appreciate this post as coming from the less biased perspective of a main Engi, from the outside looking in, who would love to see Daredevil actually come to fruition. I completely understand if people disagree. But I think if we seriously consider it, we will realize that there is no E-Spec or class in greater need of some form of rework than Daredevil. But I don't know what Daredevil is. After all, Daredevil does not exist.

Edited October 30, 2023 by Voramoz.6790

[Psycoprophet.8107]

DD is a effective and viable traitline, most meta traitline class has in all pvp modes, but definitely conquest. The reason it seems light on the theme/implementation is because u are 100% right, DD isn't really a elite spec, it's a reworked traitline thief already had originally in Acrobatics. Acrobatics was reworked/nerfed to allow the addition of DD.

[Voramoz.6790]

6 minutes ago, Psycoprophet.8107 said:

DD is a effective and viable traitline, most meta traitline class has in all pvp modes, but definitely conquest. The reason it seems light on the theme/implementation is because u are 100% right, DD isn't really a elite spec, it's a reworked traitline thief already had originally in Acrobatics. Acrobatics was reworked/nerfed to allow the addition of DD.

Yes. 100%. From the beginning, we saw the triple dodge removed from Acrobatics in order to make room for Daredevil. Daredevil as an elite Spec has never been a thing. Daredevil has also further slipped out of the pvp meta, and really every game mode, with far greater improvements to Deadeye and Specter. There is no question that Daredevil has never had a class identity.

Edited October 30, 2023 by Voramoz.6790

[Stx.4857]

Daredevil is literally core thief with an extra dodge.  It has zero boon application or initiative regen, so to me Deadeye outclasses DD in every way.  DE can apply self quickness, group quickness, or use M7 for huge boons and initiative regen.  Not to mention DE has a somewhat unique style of marking, building malice, then stealth attacking.  DD literally just has passive damage boosts and a third dodge.  That’s it….  

[Jugglemonkey.8741]

6 hours ago, Psycoprophet.8107 said:

DD is a effective and viable traitline, most meta traitline class has in all pvp modes, but definitely conquest. The reason it seems light on the theme/implementation is because u are 100% right, DD isn't really a elite spec, it's a reworked traitline thief already had originally in Acrobatics. Acrobatics was reworked/nerfed to allow the addition of DD.

Exactly this. They nerfed what we already had, then sold it back to us with an expac, probably because they didn't really know what to do with the class. Deadeye and specter have each had their faults and false starts, but at least each tried to be something different to what thief already has and is. Frankly, if daredevil didn't have dash or pulmonary impact (at the time it was OP) it's debatable whether it would have been meta at all. 

The other issue is that whenever brawler builds were viable on daredevil, they got nerfed. And nerfed hard. Staff was an off meta choice for team fights in HoT, and sword dagger thief was the same in core, but any time either set had any kind of staying power they both were nerfed into oblivion. Same thing happened to sword pistol daredevil when it had one season of being meta. If you nerf anything on a class that vaguely resembles the intended class fantasy, you can't be surprised when the spec fails to achieve it. 

[Psycoprophet.8107]

1 hour ago, Jugglemonkey.8741 said:

Exactly this. They nerfed what we already had, then sold it back to us with an expac, probably because they didn't really know what to do with the class. Deadeye and specter have each had their faults and false starts, but at least each tried to be something different to what thief already has and is. Frankly, if daredevil didn't have dash or pulmonary impact (at the time it was OP) it's debatable whether it would have been meta at all. 

The other issue is that whenever brawler builds were viable on daredevil, they got nerfed. And nerfed hard. Staff was an off meta choice for team fights in HoT, and sword dagger thief was the same in core, but any time either set had any kind of staying power they both were nerfed into oblivion. Same thing happened to sword pistol daredevil when it had one season of being meta. If you nerf anything on a class that vaguely resembles the intended class fantasy, you can't be surprised when the spec fails to achieve it. 

Yeah I remember when staff/staff was almost meta but as usual forum warriors complained constantly about it and was nerfed outa viability. Sword/dagger used t9 be really effective condi build as well and same thing happend, even though it used little stealth. Really doesn't matter whether a teef meta build uses stealth or not the community will rally to get it nerf hammered. Just how it is here, only real option is just go with the flow or choose a different class lol.

[Doggie.3184]

1 hour ago, Jugglemonkey.8741 said:

Exactly this. They nerfed what we already had, then sold it back to us with an expac, probably because they didn't really know what to do with the class.

Yes, they did this with Dual Pistols. They deleted all it's traits and features so they can sell us a Rifle with nearly same moveset and playstyle and overall less fun than what we already had and can nolonger use. And now they throw us these absolutely useless tonedeaf pistol buffs completely ignoring what we actually want/need. They also don't give Thief specs actual new F skills instead of just replacing Steal (Swipe was really dumb too). We don't really get much out of our specs as others do cuz other base classes have more than just an F1 to replace.

Deadeye loses it's Steal for a skill that doesn't even always function and requires wasting a utility slot as well as wasting a stunbreak just to gain full control over it instead of just making Mercy a new F skill. Specs like MCH get whole entire trait rows for Condi, Healer, Alacs, and Strike DMG without any weapon dependencies yet Specter is just Condi and Alacrity and only able to use 1 weapon and they're totally okay with it having so few options and getting 0 participation in the new Xpan's weapon feature. They couldn't make Scepter/Pistol unique as they just copied the Pistol/Dagger 3 playstyle that no even likes as well as it being a direct replacement for condi Dual Pistol playstyle.

On Daredevil release a popular request was to make the dodge types swappable through F keys instead of them wasting trait slots to make it actually feel like a full spec mechanic but it didn't happen. Funny enough years later they're okay with doing something similar for Willbender, while Vindicator gets the DD Quality of Life requests for Bounding in place or in movement direction. They likely gave Quickness support to Deadeye only because Daredevil has no identity attached to it to link it to even though the Spec theme makes far more sense using Quickness than Deadeye. Just putting it on DD's base Thief Steal is probably too easy access to them or they didn't feel like designing a whole new F skill or Spec mechanic to place it into. Pulmonary Impact is still a pseudo-deleted trait wasting space for how long now? They wanted it to be a Mesmer-like interrupt spam Spec but that was scrapped quickly and left dead content behind. The 2nd traitline row doesn't even have a Condi trait despite having a Condi path with Lotus Training.

I'd also like to keep reminding people that Bound's combo finisher has been broken for 8 years, our Spec 'mechanic' isn't even fully functional.

 

 

[Lithril Ashwalker.6230]

2 hours ago, Doggie.3184 said:

Yes, they did this with Dual Pistols. They deleted all it's traits and features so they can sell us a Rifle with nearly same moveset and playstyle and overall less fun than what we already had and can nolonger use. And now they throw us these absolutely useless tonedeaf pistol buffs completely ignoring what we actually want/need. They also don't give Thief specs actual new F skills instead of just replacing Steal (Swipe was really dumb too). We don't really get much out of our specs as others do cuz other base classes have more than just an F1 to replace.

Deadeye loses it's Steal for a skill that doesn't even always function and requires wasting a utility slot as well as wasting a stunbreak just to gain full control over it instead of just making Mercy a new F skill. Specs like MCH get whole entire trait rows for Condi, Healer, Alacs, and Strike DMG without any weapon dependencies yet Specter is just Condi and Alacrity and only able to use 1 weapon and they're totally okay with it having so few options and getting 0 participation in the new Xpan's weapon feature. They couldn't make Scepter/Pistol unique as they just copied the Pistol/Dagger 3 playstyle that no even likes as well as it being a direct replacement for condi Dual Pistol playstyle.

On Daredevil release a popular request was to make the dodge types swappable through F keys instead of them wasting trait slots to make it actually feel like a full spec mechanic but it didn't happen. Funny enough years later they're okay with doing something similar for Willbender, while Vindicator gets the DD Quality of Life requests for Bounding in place or in movement direction. They likely gave Quickness support to Deadeye only because Daredevil has no identity attached to it to link it to even though the Spec theme makes far more sense using Quickness than Deadeye. Just putting it on DD's base Thief Steal is probably too easy access to them or they didn't feel like designing a whole new F skill or Spec mechanic to place it into. Pulmonary Impact is still a pseudo-deleted trait wasting space for how long now? They wanted it to be a Mesmer-like interrupt spam Spec but that was scrapped quickly and left dead content behind. The 2nd traitline row doesn't even have a Condi trait despite having a Condi path with Lotus Training.

I'd also like to keep reminding people that Bound's combo finisher has been broken for 8 years, our Spec 'mechanic' isn't even fully functional.

 

 

With every class spewing reflects, blocks, evades left and right you'd think they'd re enable ricochet and allow the wvw and spvp to have viable unload builds to pressure targets.

 

I want ricochet back too!

[Carnifex.3275]

If you want to play pDD - look no further than Vindicator. Even looking at traits and the changes they are implementing, you can see all of the good DD ideas were dumped into Vindicator.

1. An option to dodge in place, no forced movement when dodging
2. Self quick
3. Stab/stunbreak without sacrificing DPS 
4. Deal increased damage when endurance is not full (Leviathan Strength) instead of 5% of every drained endurance bar (Havoc specialist), allows you to still save endurance when you actually need and wont force you to drain your endurance fully.
5. Forerunner of Death (25% extra dmg,10sec duration) vs. Bounding Dodger (15% extra dmg, 4sec duration) passive? Obvious which is the winner.
6. Less punishment to your outgoing dmg for being below 75% HP.
And ofcz infinite options to bring utility to the team if needed (bubble, stab, quick, alac, prot etcetc).

The only thing that Daredevil is good at is it has good CC. But then again, you can take Staff on Vindicator and do same damage as pDD does.
 

Edited October 31, 2023 by Carnifex.3275

[Zacchary.6183]

2 hours ago, Carnifex.3275 said:

If you want to play pDD - look no further than Vindicator. Even looking at traits and the changes they are implementing, you can see all of the good DD ideas were dumped into Vindicator. Even way back when Revenant was launched, many thief players already switched to it. You could already see anets trend of incompetence when balancing thief. Though back then it was mainly in PvP. Now of course thief is awful even in PvE.

1. An option to dodge in place, no forced movement when dodging
2. Self quick
3. Stab/stunbreak without sacrificing DPS 
4. Deal increased damage when endurance is not full (Leviathan Strength) instead of 5% of every drained endurance bar (Havoc specialist), allows you to still save endurance when you actually need and wont force you to drain your endurance fully.
5. Forerunner of Death (25% extra dmg,10sec duration) vs. Bounding Dodger (15% extra dmg, 4sec duration) passive? Obvious which is the winner.
6. Less punishment to your outgoing dmg for being below 75% HP.
And ofcz infinite options to bring utility to the team if needed (bubble, stab, quick, alac, prot etcetc).

The only thing that Daredevil is good at is it has good CC. But then again, you can take Staff on Vindicator and do same damage as pDD does.
 

Rev Staff 5 also deals the most CC damage for a single attack in the game. If you use it on a boss, it will take a 1000 pt bite out of its blue bar. Thief can pump out as much if not more, but it will take a little more effort and more resources to achieve it.

Edited October 31, 2023 by Zacchary.6183

[Eekasqueak.7850]

Wonder if they could lean into daredevil being more of a spec that is about risk taking and playing out of stealth. 

[Axelteas.7192]

When I've tried Staff daredevil in PvP or roaming I felt like the Dorn Red Viper of GoT... Appealing accrobatics, hitting hard, but when you run out of dodges you're sold, because lose mobility and stealth compared to core thief... no place to run or hide, and then the mountain kills you.

[Puck.3697]

18 hours ago, Voramoz.6790 said:

In short, Daredevil does not exist. What's more, it never has. There is no such thing as Daredevil, and there never has been. I want to reiterate that this post is not merely about the state of Daredevil right now but of its entire history since its launch with Heart of Thorns

Agreed. 

Daredevil is basically core 2.0, where I primarily use this specc (pvp) its played exactly like core is pretty much. Theres no difference realistically. 

Daredevil doesn't feel like a warrior/thief, because it still feels so centered on stealth. And it shouldnt be, imho Daredevil shouldn't have stealth it should have been doubled down on as a brawler.

I'd love to see anet make Daredevil a proper brawler. I'd love to see thief see a role in pvp which isnt decapping realistically. 

We have both DE and Core that doubles down on stealth concepts, DD don't need to be the same. 

[aetemes.2603]

 Try the cringe that is p/p permastealth daredevil :3.

.

[Carnifex.3275]

7 hours ago, Zacchary.6183 said:

Rev Staff 5 also deals the most CC damage for a single attack in the game. If you use it on a boss, it will take a 1000 pt bite out of its blue bar. Thief can pump out as much if not more, but it will take a little more effort and more resources to achieve it.

Yeah thats why i wrote the last sentence. Even the only thing that DD is good at, Vindi can do if it takes Staff.

[Stx.4857]

I really wish this game had a monk / fist fighting class.  Closest are Willbender and Daredevil.  Maybe since Daredevil no longer has an identity they could lean into that archetype?  F1 instead of steak could activate a ‘stance’ functionally similar to gunsaber mode for bladesworn but it has fist attacks, kicks, and maybe a bit of sustain options or mobility.  F2 could be a skill with a cooldown taken from guild wars monk lore - meditation, healing, pulse damage, whatever.  

[FrancisN.9276]

I hope they put more effort in reworking daredevil in the 28th Nov patch, not just the changes they listed in the preview. This class has been neglected for so many years.

[Puck.3697]

18 minutes ago, FrancisN.9276 said:

I hope they put more effort in reworking daredevil in the 28th Nov patch, not just the changes they listed in the preview. This class has been neglected for so many years.

2 weeks into testing they will prolly revert them and replace em with nerfs 😂

[Doggie.3184]

21 hours ago, Puck.3697 said:

2 weeks into testing they will prolly revert them and replace em with nerfs 😂

That really hurt with Deadeye, and especially Shadow Flare which doesn't even feel worth using but have to for a lame Relic passive. It went from being one of worst design choices; to being buffed into one of the coolest utilities we have and our only heavy magic nuke; to being nerfed to 'oh look I did a ranged auto attack' soon after. It's so weak and lame it should have a 10second cooldown just to match Sigil of Fire since it could at least be an AoE tagger for PvE. All it'd be good for in current state, relic aside. **** the relic honestly. They're not fun when designed this way.

Edited November 1, 2023 by Doggie.3184

[Zacchary.6183]

1 hour ago, Doggie.3184 said:

That really hurt with Deadeye, and especially Shadow Flare which doesn't even feel worth using but have to for a lame Relic passive. It went from being one of worst design choices; to being buffed into one of the coolest utilities we have and our only heavy magic nuke; to being nerfed to 'oh look I did a ranged auto attack' soon after. It's so weak and lame it should have a 10second cooldown just to match Sigil of Fire since it could at least be an AoE tagger for PvE. All it'd be good for in current state, relic aside. **** the relic honestly. They're not fun when designed this way.

I miss the OG Malicious Restoration. It healed up to 10k and 7 conditions based on Malice and if you had M7.

[Azure The Heartless.3261]

On 10/31/2023 at 4:28 AM, aetemes.2603 said:

 Try the cringe that is p/p permastealth daredevil :3.

Leave my degeneracy out of this

[Cool Boy.2195]

Daredevil couldn't even live up to it's acrobat fantasy if they changed every skill from scratch, cause it's Spec is littered with Trash traits that actively hurt itself. 

Havoc Specialist has to be the single worse trait I've ever read for any elite spec. It directly attacks the Class Fantasy of being an acrobat by punishing you if you have any dodges available....
Daredevil's fantasy of being "The most evasive class!" is a lie, since if you ever have a dodge available your DPS drops off the face of a cliff. 
Everything from Bounding Dodger's lukewarm damage and forced uptime buff, to Havoc Specialist's forced dodge mechs are trash. Being forced to take dagger traits for staff damage is also trash. 

Meanwhile Vindicator has a better damage dodge, nigh infinite endurance sometimes, and you can actually CONTROL the dodge's movement with perfect accuracy. Why can't DD keep some of it's endurance again?

Even Willbender does better at the "Thief" fantasy than Thief, with twice as many mobility skills, no janky animations like Staff 2, and higher damage on nearly everything it does. 

Daredevil does not exist is right on the money. But I'll be first in line to play, the day ANet decides to finish this Spec. 

 

 

[Lithril Ashwalker.6230]

6 minutes ago, Cool Boy.2195 said:

Daredevil couldn't even live up to it's acrobat fantasy if they changed every skill from scratch, cause it's Spec is littered with Trash traits that actively hurt itself. 

Havoc Specialist has to be the single worse trait I've ever read for any elite spec. It directly attacks the Class Fantasy of being an acrobat by punishing you if you have any dodges available....
Daredevil's fantasy of being "The most evasive class!" is a lie, since if you ever have a dodge available your DPS drops off the face of a cliff. 
Everything from Bounding Dodger's lukewarm damage and forced uptime buff, to Havoc Specialist's forced dodge mechs are trash. Being forced to take dagger traits for staff damage is also trash. 

Meanwhile Vindicator has a better damage dodge, nigh infinite endurance sometimes, and you can actually CONTROL the dodge's movement with perfect accuracy. Why can't DD keep some of it's endurance again?

Even Willbender does better at the "Thief" fantasy than Thief, with twice as many mobility skills, no janky animations like Staff 2, and higher damage on nearly everything it does. 

Daredevil does not exist is right on the money. But I'll be first in line to play, the day ANet decides to finish this Spec. 

 

 

right...furthermore punishes you if you have dodges left because you need to have no dodges to gain dmg from havoc specialist...and after THAT it forces you to reposition by dodging...yet vindicator can dodge in place, daredevil can not dodge in place. this is busted. it needs to mimic in place dodges.

[FrancisN.9276]

Let's not forget Staff 2 (highest dps staff skill which you will definitely use a alot) force-move you closer to the enemy so much that if you use Bound, the dodge will reposition you too far away from the enemy to actually land that Bounding Dodger damage. The only way to land that dodge damage after Staff 2 is by backpedalling by at least 2 steps and then dodge toward the enemy - way too predictable in any competitive mode. Everyone can see that miles away and just walk slowly toward you so that your Bound will land way off mark.

Edited November 8, 2023 by FrancisN.9276

[Khlori.6209]

I'll take the opportunity and complain here about how bad Daredevil icon is.

Seriously, Berserker has cool sword with flames, Herald a *kitten* dragon, Tempest some triple swirl, etc.

Meanwhile Daredevil: lame boot with wings *insert "lmao"*

Was there really nothing else they could come up with? Not to mention how good base Thief icon is.