I'd like to share a few thoughts - get mad about it if you don't like it

[HawaiianDreads.5473]

17 hours ago, Gotejjeken.1267 said:

You get focus fired on Untamed, you die--even with power, you don't have the mobility bird/gazelle/smokescale merges give you nor the 'get out of jail reeee' card that is Dolyak Stance.  You have some super speed on skills like your heal and elite but that's kinda stupid way to get speed over soulbeast which gets it free via merge.  Soulbeast also gets free movement speed buff this way, etc. etc.

Pretty much why I stopped playing Untamed. Enjoy it more than Soulbeast but just under-perform  compare to other classes and specs. So decided to jump back on warrior for pvp, if I'm forced in a way to play a spec I don't enjoy to just perform decent no point playing the class.

[Tanuki.4603]

The real conspiracy is that ArenaNet makes the balance terrible on purpose so that they can leave the afkers be and have paying customers buying gemstore skins.

 

Balance is bad on purpose, so that AFK complaining gets lost in the mass amount of  balance complaints.

[Wild.1705]

I agree with most points but unsure or disagree with others. Here is my perspective on your list. My comments are the bold portions. Sorry if this is not the best format.

On 11/6/2023 at 1:12 PM, Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

1. Firebrand needs real buffs in pvp.

This is delusional right? If it heals more than heal guard, fml that is toxic. If it gets a burn build that is somehow meta, fml that is toxic. If it gets a power build on the level of wb... well at least it's not worse. If it is, fml that is toxic. How would you fix this exactly? They can already pop an anti projectile field over and over and over. Be careful what you ask for buddy.

1. kitten fix the way that Shield Master - Guild Wars 2 Wiki (GW2W) interacts with Aegis.

Agree, it's bad. Loads of things on warrior need to be tuned down. This is 1 trait out of 50000000000 that need a looking at.

1. Vindicator does not need the dodge buffs it is about to get.

Should be nerfs in other areas if they want to do this. To me, the dodge feels super oppressive as is.

1. Thems are some mighty heavy buffs that Engi is about to get. Looks like maybe a bit too much. Slick Shoes should not be a force wall effect like Line Of Ward. You should be able to dodge/evade across Slick Shoes.

What the heck is this choice? So weird. Eng is great atm. It should coast for a bit, although I think nades should be toned down. Hollowsmith feels like it has to much damage/mobility/surviveability. In small scale fights it feels close to ele at times.

1. For the love of God, please do not remove the CCs from Smokescale & Smokescale merge. You still haven't removed the random damage proc from Lightning Reflexes. The nerfs to One Wolf Pack were too severe, some of the damage needs to be added back in all modes. Lyhr Relic is awesome on Druid -> PvP - Lyhr Bunker Support Druid - YouTube

100% agree please don't remove the knockdown. The synergy the smokescale knockdown currently has, feels good on nearly every ranger build. This is not just about performance but how it feals and the synergy it has with the ranger kit.

1. Thief is hitting awfully hard nowadays, both DP Daredevil power bursts and Specter condi bursts. Even in wvw DP Daredevil is so strong & resilient in 1v1 that it is the only thing that can get away without using cele and still be a top roamer. The DPS output & 1v1 power here is getting to be questionable considering it still is the class with the best overall survival & mobility.

Fireworks relic really did boost it up. I think thief is in a good spot at the moment, but stealth overall is still questionable as usual.

1. Necros are fine. "Deadly Strength: This trait now also grants condition damage per stack of Death's Carapace." Holy **** you sure? Alright.

Necromancers feel far more balanced than in the past. They really dont need bluffs.

1. Mesmer buffs - Nice way to bring back the Core Mesmer. Tolkien Underfoot should enjoy this.

"Sigh" The current mesmer meta is so unhealthy. It feels like there is never a good time to actually attack them. When I have Tolkien Underfoot on my team in unranked games, I co template going afk. The opposing team would get a win, and players would have less of a chance of being subjected to that build. If I didn't have 3 other players on my team, I wouldn't think twice. Tolkien Underfoot, If you see this, I respect you as a player; but, you have done damage to the new players in this community. To be fair, perhaps I have caused new players to quit too. Many of us vet players cause more harm than we mean to, simply by stomping new players and/or using clearly toxic builds.

1. Catalyst/Tempest/Weaver is still running the show in team comps. This class still enjoys being the best support option, one of the best overall 1v1 presence, and in general one of the better team fighters. Ele is still very strong and I'm tired of hearing complaints about "the weak state it is in". Knock it off guys, it's embarassing.

Catalyst/Tempest/Weaver are insane in the right hands and clearly still overtuned. We should be seeing micro nerfs over time but no buffs. 

1. Akeem Relic needs to be shaved.

There are a few relics that could be looked at, but yes, this one for sure.

1. Stronghold & Courtyard need to be added into normal queues into map select shuffle.

Sure, why not. It only adds more content which is a good thing.

1. Can we get some new maps? It's been awhile man.

Please, please, please. Please. 

1. Can we get some different kinds off-season? Surprise us, do something weird. Give us something new.

I want to see a core only 5v5, and a 5v5 no downstate mini season, just to see how it feels.

 

Edited November 12, 2023 by Wild.1705
Added a comment about formatting

[Sahne.6950]

On 11/10/2023 at 8:36 PM, Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

You as an Ele main who would be perpetually out-ranged by this stupid Specter build would likely strongly agree with me if you logged in and did a few 1v1s with some players who are actually good on Specter.

i can not beat this build with me ele build. There is no way.   You know me.  i play Tempest.  And the slow on the 3 locks me in an overload for 8 seconds, basically locking me out of my cleanses and i melt.

But that doesnt make Specter op. Just because there is no way i can beat something on one specific build, doesnt mean its overpowered.    

Its a rock-paper-scissors kind of situation going on with that build.   For some that build is UBER-godmode because of outrange/slow spam/ constant condireapplication.... there is alot of diffrent things on specter that can completly shut down certain builds, no matter how you play it....    and for others.. specter is no problem at all, because they can just pop a "get out of jail free-card" and then overwhelm it with DPS or cheese it with mechanics like stealth or even conditransfers.

Anyone that also multiclasses will probably agree here.

 

For example: Try D/P Thief or DE against it, and youll see that it crumbles in a heartbeat.    There is NOTHING the specter can do against a pesky d/p teef on its tail.... your just a sitting duck.   Just gotta know what works and pick the right fights. When i see a specter ingame, i just swap to d/p last second and make this guys day as miserable as i can. i follow him around and make him wish he played d/p....

its simple as having a few nice counters in your backpocket.    Because specter has some glaring weaknesses for sure. altho specter might have more impact at first glance...  the specters impact will be close to 0 if there is a d/p or DE against him. Thats also why you see good thiefs like sindrener and Co. playing exclusively DE right now!  They dont play CondiSpecter at all.   Because alot of others are playing specter in higherranks right now.. and DE counters that build like crazy.

I dont see a reason to nerf specter.   "i cant beat it" is not a valid reason kind of. 

The aspect of "rock-paper-scissors" is incredibly apparent on this build... and that cooouuuuld be unhealthy... a discussion about this can be made100%... but then you have to phrase it like that and not  " bruh specter so stronkk! It bursts like power SLB pre-nerf!!!"    

thats 2 diffrent things... and an overexaggeration aswell.  That thing doesnt pop you with a nice 15k Maul out of stealth.  it just doesnt.

 

infact Specter is very easy to beat, IF you have the tools for it.       You needing those tools, otherwise you are dead 100% of the time even against a duck picking corn on a keyboard...... could be/is unhealthy. And i am up to discuss that.

but i wont agree on the statement that specter is op and deals damage comparable to pre-nerf SLB.

just my 2cts tho.

Edited November 13, 2023 by Sahne.6950

[Myror.7521]

@Rap Tiger.1257 i mean technicaly you are right. On the other hand If you nerf bsw so it cant win 1v1s anymore you would just make the whole spec basicly useless cause 1v1 is all this spec is good at xD. It would be the same If we Warriors would say "just nerf rangers longbow cause it does allready enough dmg in melee".

 

[Myror.7521]

@Puck.3697 nah thief can easily win every 1v1. But you don't want to do it cause it would take too mutch time cause you can't fight on point with it. So instead of pushing 1v1s you go for +1s witch is basicly the faster way to get the Point captured^^

[Sahne.6950]

58 minutes ago, Myror.7521 said:

@Puck.3697 nah thief can easily win every 1v1. But you don't want to do it cause it would take too mutch time cause you can't fight on point with it. So instead of pushing 1v1s you go for +1s witch is basicly the faster way to get the Point captured^^

(speaking about d/p and DE)

easily win every 1v1...  meh... not rly....    if both are evenly skilled..... thats not true.    

But if the thief  outskills the opponent,even just slightly, there is room to beat ALMOST everyone.   agreed. 

Edited November 13, 2023 by Sahne.6950

[Shagie.7612]

i don't think the condi untamed nerf was as big as rangers made it out to be

rabid amulet's dumb for anything that can use it lol

my other hot take is that projectile hate is still too far in favor of the anti-projectiles and by and large the non-projectile ranged weapons are superior in any given role to the projectile ones (something like specter scepter as a condi wep vs ranger shortbow)

Edited November 13, 2023 by Shagie.7612

[Burnfall.9573]

On 11/6/2023 at 3:12 PM, Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

1. Firebrand needs real buffs in pvp.
2. kitten fix the way that Shield Master - Guild Wars 2 Wiki (GW2W) interacts with Aegis.
3. Vindicator does not need the dodge buffs it is about to get.
4. Thems are some mighty heavy buffs that Engi is about to get. Looks like maybe a bit too much. Slick Shoes should not be a force wall effect like Line Of Ward. You should be able to dodge/evade across Slick Shoes.
5. For the love of God, please do not remove the CCs from Smokescale & Smokescale merge. You still haven't removed the random damage proc from Lightning Reflexes. The nerfs to One Wolf Pack were too severe, some of the damage needs to be added back in all modes. Lyhr Relic is awesome on Druid -> PvP - Lyhr Bunker Support Druid - YouTube
6. Thief is hitting awfully hard nowadays, both DP Daredevil power bursts and Specter condi bursts. Even in wvw DP Daredevil is so strong & resilient in 1v1 that it is the only thing that can get away without using cele and still be a top roamer. The DPS output & 1v1 power here is getting to be questionable considering it still is the class with the best overall survival & mobility.
7. Necros are fine. "Deadly Strength: This trait now also grants condition damage per stack of Death's Carapace." Holy **** you sure? Alright.
8. Mesmer buffs - Nice way to bring back the Core Mesmer. Tolkien Underfoot should enjoy this.
9. Catalyst/Tempest/Weaver is still running the show in team comps. This class still enjoys being the best support option, one of the best overall 1v1 presence, and in general one of the better team fighters. Ele is still very strong and I'm tired of hearing complaints about "the weak state it is in". Knock it off guys, it's embarassing.
10. Akeem Relic needs to be shaved.
11. Stronghold & Courtyard need to be added into normal queues into map select shuffle.
12. Can we get some new maps? It's been awhile man.
13. Can we get some different kinds off-season? Surprise us, do something weird. Give us something new.

 

Thank You! for not Sugarcoating the Truth

[Gotejjeken.1267]

10 hours ago, Shagie.7612 said:

i don't think the condi untamed nerf was as big as rangers made it out to be

It wasn't because that build was trash.  

It's the balancing and the 100% increase on CD in a hotfix window that was the egregiously stupid part.  

[Shagie.7612]

19 minutes ago, Gotejjeken.1267 said:

It wasn't because that build was trash.  

 

hey wow cool quick question for you and all the other rangers who constantly try to convince themselves and everyone else that the class is the worst thing ever

how do you do when you play something like, i dunno, firebrand, or weaver

just curious

[Gotejjeken.1267]

6 hours ago, Shagie.7612 said:

hey wow cool quick question for you and all the other rangers who constantly try to convince themselves and everyone else that the class is the worst thing ever

how do you do when you play something like, i dunno, firebrand, or weaver

just curious

I do pretty good as have the necessary reading comprehension to tell class from build 😉

[Shagie.7612]

4 minutes ago, Gotejjeken.1267 said:

I do pretty good as have the necessary reading comprehension to tell class from build 😉

sure wow cool good one
but what about the part where you and all the forum rangers do it for every single possible build on the class

what happens when any of you play something that's actually bad
i really wanna know

[Gotejjeken.1267]

4 hours ago, Shagie.7612 said:

sure wow cool good one
but what about the part where you and all the forum rangers do it for every single possible build on the class

what happens when any of you play something that's actually bad
i really wanna know

You mentioned weaver...it's more powerful than Druid in sPvP and I do fine on Druid in g3 and beyond, so not sure what you are getting at.  

To put it simply for you, LB/GS Untamed was good, but relied too much on UT for gap closing, so lost a lot of momentum when they nerfed that.  Burst soulbeast was obviously good until they went way overboard and destroyed sword/OWP/etc. damage, so now it can't hold up.  

Staff/Dagger untamed was always a meme, I've said that repeatedly on various forums here now lol.   

The question is, what build do ranger haters want to be good? As literally every one gets complained about, even bad ones like the aforementioned untamed build.    

Edited November 14, 2023 by Gotejjeken.1267

[Sahne.6950]

1 hour ago, Gotejjeken.1267 said:

what build do ranger haters want to be good?

if youd ask me:    Sicem Soulbeast is the healthiest of them all.   I very much enjoy fighting this. Altho people were cringing about OWP burst... its your own fault if you dont dodge the LB2.

Core valkyrie was also awesome to go up against.  Altho it was heavily carried by Tailswipe.

Edited November 14, 2023 by Sahne.6950

[ccccc.4963]

Anet needs to put a breathalyzer in your keyboard 

[Trevor Boyer.6524]

5 hours ago, Shagie.7612 said:

what happens when any of you play something that's actually bad

Ranger is actually in a state of complete mediocrity middle tier or worse right now and it'll be worse after this patch that's buffing most classes again, while tossing these menial buffs at Ranger pets, 95% of which will still not get used because the buffs are small number tweaks along with the removal of utility from some important pets.

Mark my words, you won't be seeing Ranger play after this next patch. The class is going to have to be benched for awhile even in middle tiers where it is normally strong. Arenanet went way too hard on Ranger nerfing. This is what class match ups will look like after the 28th:

1. vs. Willbender - Ranger specs will still be able to toe to toe WBer only because they can out range it and it has no CC lockdown.
2. vs. Berserker/Bladesworn - Rangers already lose to these specs 1v1. Best you can do is hold a node against it with Untamed or Druid Bunkers that don't actually have the damage to actually kill the Serk/BS just the sustain to hold vs. it. And that's all the Untamed/Druid can do is bunk a side. Their damage is trash to the point they are bad in team fights, contribute virtually nothing unless it's something like My Druid build I run lately that actually is designed for support with Lyhr and revives.
3. vs. Vindicator, Rangers won't even be able to secure practical kills on these anymore either. DPS builds will find themselves in a losing match up vs. the Vindi and Bunker Untamed/Druids will find themselves in another stalemate on a side vs. Vindis with once again enhanced dodge skill defenses that they really don't need.
4. vs. Holosmith is going to **** all over all Ranger builds after this next round of buffs. Scrapper won't be far behind, but Tool Holo is going to turn into a hard Ranger counter again and it won't matter what build the Ranger plays. Best we'll be able to do is stat hard Bunker vs. it and survive, but you'll never have anywhere the near DPS to actually pressure Tool Holos. And even as a hard Bunker, the Tool Holo has enough CC, DPS, and anti-kite mechanisms that even Bunkers will need to engage them 1v1 only and always run from 1v2s if Holo is present.
5. vs. DP Daredevil & Specter, these two archetypes have undergone a great deal of power creep since SOTO released, whereas Ranger has undergone nothing but nerfing. At this point, it's questionable as to if Rangers even counter Thieves anymore. They may still have an advantage when surprise sniping, but any advantage they had 1v1 has diminished to where the match up is rather equal nowadays and in some situations like Condi Specter vs. mid to lower damage Ranger specs, it actually counters Ranger.
6. vs. Mesmers is going to be a problem after the defensive buffs. Full defensive Mesmers, Rangers won't be able to kill and will again only be able to hold a node vs. it with full Ranger Bunker builds. Vs. Mesmer DPS with enhanced defenses, even if the Ranger can still win this match up ultimately, it won't be worth engaging because it will result in the classic scenario where to be able to win, the Ranger will have to kite all over the place using stealths to survive and the Mesmer will hold while the Ranger is off node looking for a way to kill it. It will become a situation where the Ranger will want to avoid the Mesmer unless he is +ing it.
7. vs. Necros things have turned around lately. Ranger is no longer a hard counter to Necros, it is a light counter at best in the situation of Power LB builds. And even then, Necros are so powerful lately that if you misstep and get caught once, you pop and die because to maintain enough pressure to pose a serious kill threat against Necro, you have to run the least amount of cleanse possible. In case of Ranger Condi builds, Necros just hard counter you. After the buffs Necro is about to get, this match up will become even worse for the Ranger.
8. vs. Eles, they still just hard counter the Ranger class in every mentionable way. There are two ways for a Ranger to actually kill an Ele or at least get it off a node: 1) The Ranger is a full Bunker and some guy goes at him memeing on an Ele DPS build, eventually the Ranger should kill it or at least push it off a node. 2) If someone is on Tempest Support and the Ranger is full DPS, the Ranger can kill it in time. But in all other situations, the Ele will win unless the Ranger is greatly outplaying the Ele.

The class will simply have no value after the 28th. You'll see some casual players still trying to run Ranger for awhile, until they realize it's just bad post-patch and has no viable role. This is no joke or embellishment or biased point of view. Arenanet has nerfed Ranger way way too much.

Even I have been playing Necro lately to prepare for this transition. This is no false alarm. Ranger is going to be C+ B- Tier for awhile.

59 minutes ago, Gotejjeken.1267 said:

The question is, what build do ranger haters want to be good? As literally every one gets complained about, even bad ones like the aforementioned untamed build.

No matter how mediocre Ranger is, people will always complain about it because of this psychological placebo effect where the pet makes them feel like they are getting 2v1'd.

Let me give you a classic example of the type of guy who comes in here and complains about Ranger:

1. Guy is on some tanky side node build.
2. Guy pushes far and holds far against several attempts to decap him for the first 8 minutes of the match, doesn't die once, and contributes nearly half his team's point total by himself.
3. There is a sword/greatsword Soulbeast on the opponent team who is struggling. He can't hold nodes alone, often has to peel back to avoid immediate death, generally has to wait to come in on a + to contribute to the match. This Soulbeast has died 6x to 8x in the match in the first 8 minutes of the match. Most of his time has been spent kiting to avoid death. He's tagged a few downstates and it could be said that he has contributed 15 points for his team to the 40 points he's given the other team from his deaths, but he has contributed nothing in the way of holding node caps for point ticks.
4. In the 9th minute of the match, the Soulbeast finds his way to Guy on the side node for the 3rd or 4th attempt to decap him. The Soulbeast has failed against Guy on side node every time thus far in this match. But finally on that 4th attempt, the Soulbeast gets lucky and moves just right, Guy makes a single misplay, and the Soulbeast gets a kill on him.
5. The match ends, Guy on the side node's team wins 500 to 350. Guy on the side node contributed 250 of those 500 points for his team's win, by standing on far all game and bunking it by himself. The Soulbeast contributed 20 points in kills for his team and contributed 40 points in deaths to Guy's team.
6. But because the Soulbeast was the one thing that was able to catch him by surprise that match, he has to come to the forum and complain about how OP it is.

The fact of the matter is that people have a very narrow perspective on "balance" and they don't understand the difference between when something is actually OP contributing a great deal to a match, and when something is just annoying them.

[Sahne.6950]

Did i get this right?

Ranger will just outright loose against any spec thats not WB, in the context of Conquest. 

Be it, thru not being able to hold the node cuz you have to kite, or just getting outright obliterated

...

u serious?

only time will tell... but i think you are wrong.    i think Druid and Soulbeast will be more than fine after the patch. 

Also you seem to underestimate the fact that pet skills will now be affected by Quickness. Furthermore you now have another good damagecoeff on the smokescale1.  I know the CC is gone...  but the extra oomph you have from lower CD and powercoeff cant be ignored.

I actually think ranger will be fine after the patch.   i sure will be playing it, already theorycrafted a tanky Quickness SLB build.   

call me insane... but i dont think the changes are that big of a nerf as you make them out to be. 

 

You are focusing too much on what you will loose and completly ignore what you will gain from the changes.

Just gotta get creative with your build!

Edited November 14, 2023 by Sahne.6950

[Trevor Boyer.6524]

1 hour ago, Sahne.6950 said:

u serious?

yes

1 hour ago, Sahne.6950 said:

i think Druid and Soulbeast will be more than fine after the patch.

Druid will be fine running something like I run now, more people will figure it out. It'll be good on sides for holding and have value in team fights as support.

Soulbeast is already sat out my dude. Right now it's only good when wielded by veterans against lesser skilled players. It's way too squishy for the DPS it deals in higher tiers now. You do not see players running Soulbeast in higher tiers as of recent patchings that boosted so many other build archetypes. After the patch, you simply won't see much representation of Soulbeast at all. And even Untamed DD-Staff side node will lose its place to Druid side with support value eventually. After this patch Untamed won't be able to "take" side nodes like it can now, it'll only be able to hold if the node is already its color. It's going to lose a lot of value on sides due to this and it already has little to no value in team fights at all because its damage is garbage. Soulbeast/Untamed DPS is currently garbage in higher tier play. They're just bad dude. They straight up lose 1v1s to too many of the meta specs like Condiserk / Bladesworn / Catalyst / and now Specter condi slams. They have no special role in hard countering Necros or anything else used in higher tiered play at this point. They've simply been nerfed to where they have no place or purpose. Like I said, Druid Bunker Support is going to be the last man standing as any sort of viable Ranger role because not only can it actually hold a side vs. anything 1v1, but it can massively stall 1v2 in most situations, and it has value as a team support. People just haven't figured it out yet.

Keep in mind my analysis of all this is from the standpoint of AT play, not plats mixed with silvers in unranked/ranked. Of course I'll still be able to go into an unranked and chase around silvers as a Soulbeast. But even in that case, the efficiency of Ranger has just dropped several steps and will drop another after the 28th patch.

1 hour ago, Sahne.6950 said:

Also you seem to underestimate the fact that pet skills will now be affected by Quickness

Which can only even be utilized with two things: 1) Nature Magic or 2) We Heal As One.

The problem with WHAO is that you sacrifice all the condi cleanse and Fury buff that comes with Troll Unguent. This goes much deeper than you realize. When you run WHAO you may as well not run Wilderness because WHAO is what you run when you use Marksmanship. The only builds that Marks work well on right now are Untamed DPS builds and these generally don't use Wilderness survival skills at all beyond Quick Zephyr the utility for on-demand quickness that is LONG enough to be worth using WHAO for. You have to run Beast Mastery with it for the Greatsword trait and the Quickness on pet swap trait to make Marks mod combos work. And even when you do this, with WHAO, you don't have enough time to prime quickness and cast a ****ing heal skill to give it to the pet before opening an offensive combo, not to mention no one wants to burn their only sustain skill on an all glass build for a prepared offense. So this leaves an Untamed trying to utilize WHAO for some kind offensive pet quick buff in a position where he's waiting for the stars to align after he's taken damage, for the right moment to occur, to where using the heal skill after buffing Zephyr holds both value for the heal and the only 3s of Quick it will give the pet, and hope that combo lands. And does it even matter? I mean when the combo relies on the Ranger CC locking someone to make sure the pet's one big attack lands to combo the Mark mod with the Maul, does the 33% Quick buff even matter? Well it may matter to help the pet follow up with 1 auto after the big damage before the player gets away, that's about it. The Ranger simply has no other method to like "keep Quickness on the pet often so he is actually pumping out consistently more damage". It just doesn't work that way. In the case of "Quickness effects pets" with WHAO DPS builds, it will make such a slight difference that it won't matter at all. The Quickness is gated to that one moment the Ranger uses WHAO and by the time the cast is complete, the pet gets maybe 2 1/2s or 3s of Quick and as I stated before, it makes no difference in the DPS value whether it has Quick or no Quick, when the combo is just all about the Ranger CC lock anyway.

In the cast of Nature Magic, every boon the Ranger gets also goes on the pet. But running Nature Magic means you have to stat as a Bunker. There is no way to run Marks with Nature and have it be more valuable than Marks/Beast or even Marks/Wilderness. Same thing with Skirm, there is no way to make it more valuable than Skirm/Wild or even Skirm/Beast. The only choice is to run Nature/Wild and this makes you a Bunker. The only viable choice to attempt to run something that could benefit a lot of Quick on a pet for DPS, would be Core Ranger which could run like Marks/Wild/Nature or Skirm/Wild/Nature for a condi variant, but at this point the abilities & features & raw DPS or sustain offered through Druid/Soulbeast/Untamed is just not a choice to ditch in favor of Core Ranger. You could probably go out into the FFA and do some non-node 1v1s and the Core Ranger might feel like it's sturdy, but it's gonna have the same problem as Core Engi in this regard. It'll feel hipster af in a 1v1 and then you go into an actual 5v5 conquest game where you need to hold nodes and be able to deal with being focused, and then it just sucks.

I'm telling you, the only future Ranger has after the 28th is Bunker specs. And even a Bunker with Nature who has Quick Zephyr and maybe even a Dagger to spam Quick off #3, it's just not going to be any enlightened level of DPS from the pet. You've got to understand that their important skills are also on CDs that can only be used so often, regardless of if they have Quickness. And in terms of Quickness making their autos faster, no one stands in pet autos man. If anything, what would increase pet DPS the most, is if there were a way to keep something like Super Speed on them so they could actually keep up with players and stay on them. <- That would actually be impactful. This is one of the reasons why Smokescale has always been so important, because he ports at things and makes sure his damage lands. If the pets had like perma Super Speed or maybe just frequent Super Speed, then we're talking situation where Rangers could realistically swap out Smokescale for something like a Wyvern and the enhanced mobility would make his autos & CCs worth it.

Either way, that Quickness effects pets will be an impactful DPS enhancement for pve where things stand still and let pets hit them, but it will have little to no impact on pets in pvp. In wvw on a cele roamer with high boon duration who is also using sigils that make Quick along with Zephyr, then yeah, if you can keep massively high uptime of Quick on a pet in wvw, that will make a difference, but that is simply not an option in spvp.

1 hour ago, Sahne.6950 said:

Furthermore you now have another good damagecoeff on the smokescale1.  I know the CC is gone...  but the extra oomph you have from lower CD and powercoeff cant be ignored.

He won't hit with that skill so often. The only time he's going to hit with that is after a Smoke Assault and if the players doesn't dodge right after or walk out with Super Speed or Swift with a Speed Relic. Super Speed or Swift/Speed Relic is fast enough to where you can walk away from the Smokescale after he lands from the Assault, and that CC attack that is turning into the damage attack, won't hit you. Even with the lowered CD of that skill, when he uses it the 2nd time in between Smoke Assaults, it's too easy to walk away from without the "stick to you like glue" effect from the Assault first. So essentially the damage from that attack is going to be gated to the Assault CD. The only people who will be hit by the lower CD 2nd cycle of that are going to be the Gohans who don't dodge, which will further exasperate the problem where lower tier players complain about how OP pets are. And in the case of new Smokescale with DPS builds, the lose of the CC is DETERIMENTAL. You're not understanding how Ranger attack cycles work. That CC that we see is about to happen after the Assault, that's when we know to start precasting a Maul animation or some other large strike. In the case of Soulbeast, we are not only losing the Smokescale natural CC but also the in-merge CC, which yoinks up our combos while in-merge. This change they are doing Smokescale is just bad for higher tiered play and even middle tier. There are other small things that non-ranger players are not understanding is so important about that Smokescale CC. Couple IE: 1) When you're peeling, that Smokescale CC will hit someone chasing you and give you a couple seconds to gain lead. 2) Vs. something like a Thief, that CC will often surprise a Thief at a bad time because it has a high practicality to land, granting you a good 2s to deal with the Thief before it gets back on its feet.

The parameters of Ranger have been being balanced around these Smokescale mechanics for sooooo long, that suddenly removing that CC without any real compensation for the things I've explained to here, after the already recent very heavy nerfs, will be the straw that broke the camel's back, and the class is going to get benched by 95% of the player base. And I"m not just talking MAT representation here. I mean like normal players, even old Ranger mains like myself will be forced to bench our main class for awhile.

Mark my words now and call me out later if I'm wrong.

Edited November 14, 2023 by Trevor Boyer.6524

[Sahne.6950]

i hear you....   i hear you...

 

 But i have to say that a few pets will really make the difference here!  

The bear pets for example.   Significantly lowered cooldowns. and significantly increased basehealing and healing multipliers.  They will also grant 1200 healingpower now.  Making your healskills extremely potent while merged. WHAO has 1 to 1 scaling, which is very good for a healingskill with that kind of basevalue.

I also think Rockgazelle will be crazy good after the patch. Charge will now reliably deliver both damage coeffs of the travel and the actual impact, and stop right at the target.  In the best case, it will  use charge, into kick, which will deal massive damage.  and its also enabling the opportunity to actually land the f2 after charge Because it puts the gazelle into the perfect spot to do it.

Tailswipe is also seeing a nice buff in the upcoming patch.

A few nice sustain beast skills....    There is alot of nice goodies coming your way!

The added functionality´on alot of the pets, paired with a tanky rune, will make for a excellenct powerbased duellist.  MARK MY WORDS.

 

All it takes is a smart player to actually see the new gimmicks and make some sense out of it.

like.. 1200 healingpower on bearfamily.... thats INSANE.   Take the polarbear for example.

Polarbear will be crazy after the patch. maybe you dont see it... idk....   i sure do.

merged f3 to pull people in, then f1 to heal, unmerge and use f2 to apply aoe stun, then you swap to gazell, use the quickness +f2 for yet again a knockback, into the GS combo or even whirling axe if you are feeling fancy.   it will be crazy man!

Get creative! 😃  Start thinking outside of the   "smokescale+X" box.

They are adding SOOO much! but all you see is that you lost your CC on smokescale f1.....   come on....    scrap the smokescale stealth gameplay.  Go down the bruiser/duellist valley.

 

Also you can see them bumping up the bleedstacks applied across the pets.  Now you add a littlebit of Fractalrelic on top... and.... etvoila!  There will be some nasty bleed druid builds again.   

 

Stop putting your head in the sand and search for the next good Rangerbuild! Yes some builds will not be as good...agreed.

But dont you see the potential for new and even better builds?     i sure do.

Edited November 14, 2023 by Sahne.6950

[Trevor Boyer.6524]

2 hours ago, Sahne.6950 said:

The bear pets for example.   Significantly lowered cooldowns. and significantly increased basehealing and healing multipliers.  They will also grant 1200 healingpower now.  Making your healskills extremely potent while merged. WHAO has 1 to 1 scaling, which is very good for a healingskill with that kind of basevalue.

Nah man. Non-Ranger mains are seriously not understanding how bad some of those pets are. They aren't sort of bad, one notch away from being useful, no. Those bears and their skills are so bad & useless that you could boost that heal power to 2000 and give them +1000 power on top of that, and they'd still be worse options than the current Smokescale. Their attacks are so naturally bad that even when they have 25 might they're still dealing less damage than a Drake Tail Swipe, and any heal skill they have natural or in-merge is no where near as important as Smoke Assault evade frames. Look man, when you're running some kind of glass cannon DPS build on Ranger or even a bunker, it's the Smoke Assault evade frames that allows you to survive 2-3+ players bursting you, not a 3000 bear heal. The level of DPS is so unbelievably high right now especially during cross-bursting, that a 3000 heal "might" stall your death by .50 seconds or some diminutive amount of time. It's damage mitigation that you need, not random short heals. They don't do much. Even in the case of a Bunker, the Smokescale F2 smoke field is stealth disengage and even blind spam for those wise enough to know how to utilize the field for damage mitigation. When I run my Druid right now, I actually use Axe offhand because the whirl finisher in the smoke field is a stronger sustain presence than the small heals off Warhorn, it's true. Damage mitigation is more valuable in GW2 pvp right now than straight heals, because the damage being pumped is so high right now.

Even after the CC is removed from Smokescale, we'll still have to use it because of the level of sustain that the smoke field provides and the Smoke Assault defense in-merge. Even on a Bunker, it will still need Smokescale to be optimal along with the Turtle. Trying to put in a bear over Smokescale or the Turtle will absolutely drop the efficiency of the Ranger build. Even in-merge on Soulbeast, those bear skills surprisingly suck. Even Black Bear with double power based invulns somehow feels like it's just delaying your defeat, it's not actually allowing you to get a step ahead of the opponent. Any Ranger main knows what I'm talking about here. Somehow those bears just SUCK. You'd think invulns and all that would be good but somehow it just isn't. There is a reason why you don't see streamers like Boyce running a ****ing Black Bear, because it's just bad. +100 heal on bears isn't going to change anything. What they need is like enhance attack damage and god forbid a single in-merge CC or at least something with damage. Right now the best tanky options are Smokescale & Turtle, and I guarantee you that is not going to change.

2 hours ago, Sahne.6950 said:

I also think Rockgazelle will be crazy good after the patch. Charge will now reliably deliver both damage coeffs of the travel and the actual impact, and stop right at the target.  In the best case, it will  use charge, into kick, which will deal massive damage.  and its also enabling the opportunity to actually land the f2 after charge Because it puts the gazelle into the perfect spot to do it.

Gazelle has always been good. Just not so many people were good enough to understand how to use it. If they are fixing the natural F2 Charge, that'll be great, about time.

This will not be an overall buff however, but rather an alteration. DPS Power builds will end up favoring the use of Smokescale & Gazelle. But you see the Smokescale is losing a 2s knockdown CC with high chance for actually landing, and then Gazelle is gaining a 2s daze off Charge that will now be functional to actually use, but overall the DPS Power builds aren't gaining any extra CCs.

Now we also get into the realistic flow of how any of this would work. Let's take Marks mods as an example. I've already explained to you why the Smokescale losing the CC is detrimental overall for several reasons. However in the case of Marks mods, the Smokescale will now have a sort of Tail Swipe like attack to land with a Marks mod. It'll be able to deal damage with Marks builds now, but like I said about that CC, there are a lot of other things that are more important for the build than just pet damage, that are being lost with the removal of that CC. The Gazelle double CC chain with specifically Untamed DPS should be strong, but it will have to be quite telegraphed. The DPS on Charge will be what the Untamed wants to use the pet side of the Marks mod with, it deals the most damage. Kick is 5x strikes that has too low of coefficients that will chew up the Marks mod and waste it on tick one. Head Toss is a CC but a extreme low damage CC, so this is what an Untamed would want to follow up the Charge with to keep someone CC'd while they swing.

In the case of Marks mod variants, the Gazelle will offer actually the MOST powerful CC lock up for that gimmick that we've seen to date. The only problem with that, is to make it count, you gotta really dip for the DPS man, leaving the build absolutely raw in the defensive area. They are builds that rely upon the concept of "Your defense is your offense" and that's all you get with Marks builds if they are designed right to work. This usually results in builds that are great in 1v1 off-node and usually great at +ing, but they can't hold nodes against these rising Super-Bruiser specs that we are seeing lately. They get out-sustained and eventually have to retreat unless they can really outplay the guy on the node. And they aren't typically good in team fights either because if they focused by 2+ they just fold like paper. They don't have enough time to setup and execute gimmicks like Marks mod play in fast paced team fights. With the way they are buffing so many things to be Super-Bruisers lately, the implementation of a fixed Charge isn't going to be enough to resurrect Marks builds.

In the case of non Marks builds, whether Skirm DPS or Condi or Bunker w/e, there are certain pets that have to be used for certain reasons to make those archetypes actually function at high levels. With Condi DPS, you have to use Ibolga. The Ibolga has a lot of cover condis it contributes to protect the bleed applications, which is where 90% of the Ranger's damage is coming from. Without the Ibolga, every time a person weapon swaps with a cleanse sigil or uses some 1 condi cleanse ability, it resets the bleed stacks. Ibolga usually is paired with a Smokescale for obvious reasons. Even the smoke field off Smokescale allows the Ranger to fire blind spam at you = damage mitigation and more cover condis. In the case of Bunker builds you gotta use Smokescale & Turtle. Again, the blind spam and stealth disengage, and then the Turtle is a fat bunker himself with a huge projectile denial that pulses protection, and he also has a massive AoE CC with like no telegraph, that will CC everything that is on the node with you, and most importantly he just survives. So in the case of: "Should I take Bear or Turtle?" you've got to understand that when a Deadeye shows up, you can either eat 5 or 6 high powered rifle shots and then try to heal off the Bear for 3000 or pop a Turtle bubble and not get hit at all. This is what I mean about damage mitigation just being more important lately, and those damage mitigation tools are usually on lower CDs than the heals as well. As far as Power DPS goes, they'll still need Smokescale for stealthing and Gazelle will definitely be the new 2nd pick, It'll be the same kind of DPS output & CC as it's always been, just rearranged. In the case of Soulbeast merge though, the loss of the CC on Smokescale is going to hurt it more than the extra damage will help it, for sure.

3 hours ago, Sahne.6950 said:

Tailswipe is also seeing a nice buff in the upcoming patch.

A few nice sustain beast skills....    There is alot of nice goodies coming your way!

The added functionality´on alot of the pets, paired with a tanky rune, will make for a excellenct powerbased duellist.  MARK MY WORDS

Nah man. I've read all through it. These changes are not going to be nearly as impactful as some people believe they are. I don't want to write a 600 word essay on every change, but every change being made, I could explain similar reasons why they aren't going to change much if change anything at all, like I've already written here about the main topics at hand.

3 hours ago, Sahne.6950 said:

Polarbear will be crazy after the patch. maybe you dont see it... idk....   i sure do

That's because you're not a Ranger main. You're seeing things that look good on paper but that aren't going to pan out in application for the kinds of reasons I've explained to you here. What I'm talking about here is exactly the same scenario that Firebrand Support vs. Core Guard Support faces. We look at Fireband Support and everyone thinks "This would have to better than Core Guard Support. There's no way this wouldn't be better than Core Guard Support." Even old Guardian mains will from time to time look at Firebrand and be like: "Hrmm... it just has to be better... I just need to be faster to make this work." But every time people seriously attempt to pick up experience making Firebrand work, they learn firsthand the actual in-game application of real mechanics & interactions within the meta of why it doesn't. The Core Guardian's ability to provide instant support is simply far more valuable with the options we have provided now. This is something a player couldn't see, until they really sat down and played a Firebrand Support vs. a Core Guard Support for themself, to experience "why" firsthand.

3 hours ago, Sahne.6950 said:

merged f3 to pull people in, then f1 to heal, unmerge and use f2 to apply aoe stun, then you swap to gazell, use the quickness +f2 for yet again a knockback, into the GS combo or even whirling axe if you are feeling fancy.   it will be crazy man!

Get creative! 😃  Start thinking outside of the   "smokescale+X" box.

Yes because no builds have stun breaks or on-demand Stability.

With all due respect man, there is so much going on here with why none of what you're mentioning is going to work.

3 hours ago, Sahne.6950 said:

They are adding SOOO much! but all you see is that you lost your CC on smokescale f1.....   come on....    scrap the smokescale stealth gameplay.  Go down the bruiser/duellist valley.

Yeah that'd be great to be able to do. But as I've stated before, they've balanced the class around the prominent use of Smokescale for soooo long, that as non-Ranger player, you are seriously not understanding what happens when you lose that smoke field.

What do you think was keeping the Boyce Soulbeast build functional? It was the stealth. Without that stealth, as soon as Griffon/evades/blocks are on CD, which happens in about 5 seconds of its approach, it's dead without stealth disengage, like immediately. As I've stated before, these tini buffs & alterations that the pets are getting aren't even in the ballpark of enough transition to replace the Smokescale.

Hey man, it's not that I want it to be that way, it's just true. If you were to talk to any other serious Ranger main, they'd tell you the same thing. We'll still be pigeonholed into the use of the same old stuff: Smokescale, Gazelle, Ibolga, Jacaranda, Turtle, and maybe Drakes will see a reemerge. A lot of people are super excited about stuff like Birds, but it will not work. The DPS output is just waaaay too high for the non-tanky pets at this point. For example the build that @Azure The Heartless.3261 always runs in the FFA, all he'd have to do is strike a Hawk once or twice and then the Ranger is on a 50s CD for pet swap. Most of the pets, regardless of how good you want their ablities to be, are just too squishy for competitive nowadays.

3 hours ago, Sahne.6950 said:

Also you can see them bumping up the bleedstacks applied across the pets.  Now you add a littlebit of Fractalrelic on top... and.... etvoila!  There will be some nasty bleed druid builds again.

My guy, you're talking to the only person in NA who makes a bleed Druid work at competitive levels.

3 hours ago, Sahne.6950 said:

But dont you see the potential for new and even better builds?     i sure do.

That's because you're not a Ranger main.

I appreciate the positivity though.

[Gotejjeken.1267]

12 hours ago, Sahne.6950 said:

if youd ask me:    Sicem Soulbeast is the healthiest of them all.   I very much enjoy fighting this. Altho people were cringing about OWP burst... its your own fault if you dont dodge the LB2.

Core valkyrie was also awesome to go up against.  Altho it was heavily carried by Tailswipe.

This is confusing to me as I swear, we went back and forth about Maul (pig variant) being OP, and sword being OP, and smokescale opener being OP, and smokescale KD having no tell--and put them all together like Voltron you get the mass gutting of SLB we now have.

As all that was the case for base 'Sic Em' soulbeast, aside from sword buffs--so when was that ever fun to fight?

But that aside, I don't disagree--as has been evident from my posts months back on Soulbeast, think it was a L2P issue more than anything that anet went waaaay overboard on.  

[Sahne.6950]

There is other ways to play Power ranger rather than to go full glass and get carried by Evadeframes and Stealth from Smokescale.

When the patch hits Try Demolisher/Vampirism or scrapper/Dura     GS/sword+wh     WS+BM+SLB  WHAO+QuickeningZephir+Protectme+Dolyakstance+SotP with Brown/PolarBear and another supportive pet with good base DPS, like Snowowl, ontop. 

 

When Polarbear comes into the picture it will be even better.

You say it deals no dmg... but they are increasing the dmg by quite a bit m8... Some skills like Birdswoop get a  +50% dmg buff and 4 extra vuln. Bite used to heal 400 every 20 seconds, but you can now expect heals of 2200.. every 10 seconds... Thats GOOD.  Also they reduce defy pain cooldown down to 30 seconds... together with the other defensive skills that is quite some bulk, and you can still hold the node while this is active.  So many little sustain buffs! i am sure they will add up.

Protme+dolyak+SotP+Defypain is quite alot of "HOLY MOLY I AM GETTING BURSTED BUTTONS" that you have at your disposal.

You can still use the smokescale for the evadeframe if you really want to...  run bear and smokescale. You can do whatever you like.  But i like to run Snowowl, for that extra Damage and heal it offers. Swoop will hit pretty hard after nov28. and quickeninscreech will be your get out of jail free card for movementimpairing condis.    Greatsword block / evadeframe and sword evadeframe is all i need kind of.

Anyways....Its 100% gonna be rough to kill that build. Itll make for a great duellist.

Edited November 15, 2023 by Sahne.6950

[Sahne.6950]

11 hours ago, Gotejjeken.1267 said:

This is confusing to me as I swear, we went back and forth about Maul (pig variant) being OP, and sword being OP, and smokescale opener being OP, and smokescale KD having no tell--and put them all together like Voltron you get the mass gutting of SLB we now have.

As all that was the case for base 'Sic Em' soulbeast, aside from sword buffs--so when was that ever fun to fight?

But that aside, I don't disagree--as has been evident from my posts months back on Soulbeast, think it was a L2P issue more than anything that anet went waaaay overboard on.  

LB/GS sicemranger with smokescale and Gazelle was the goat. 

 

People got upset when boar and sword got introduced, creating the Meelestancebeast. 

That thing was toxic cuz it could oneshot you out of stealth which is just plain unhealthy.

[Gotejjeken.1267]

9 hours ago, Sahne.6950 said:

People got upset when boar and sword got introduced, creating the Meelestancebeast. 

What do you think will happen when they introduce maces?

To me melee Ranger is far healthier than "pew from 1500 zoom across the map with 5 movement skills and a bunch of movment clearing ones and throw in a block" that Sic' Em soulbeast was.  

It looks like anet feels no ranger spec is allowed as they nerfed both sic em and melee and I will bet further nerf melee once they realize all these 'fun' mace changes only work in PvE balance.  

Edited November 15, 2023 by Gotejjeken.1267