Plot hole in SotO part 2 (Spoilers)

[mandala.8507]

3 minutes ago, Ashantara.8731 said:

???  You already know how it's going to end then? Wow, tell me! 😂 Is Eparch Peitha's father? Are we going to kiss her goodbye? Tell me!! 🤣

If you were paying attention like you claim, you'd already know he's her uncle.

[Ashantara.8731]

3 minutes ago, mandala.8507 said:

If you were paying attention like you claim, you'd already know he's her uncle.

Oh, that's right. I am still sorting the whole family relations in my head, what with brothers, uncles, cousins, etc.

P.S. My previous response was meant as a joke, by the way, so no need to get so uptight about everything.

Edited November 12, 2023 by Ashantara.8731

[mandala.8507]

36 minutes ago, Ashantara.8731 said:

P.S. My previous response was meant as a joke, by the way, so no need to get so uptight about everything

haha. very funny. 🙃

[Trejgon.9367]

On 11/11/2023 at 5:43 PM, Ashantara.8731 said:

Yes, she was. Unfortunately, the Wiki entry on her is sparse: https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Ignaxious

The link you provided is to page on Ignacious, whom is the boss of the map's meta event, and is not involved directly in the story of the update.

The "small kryptis" that was claimed by OP Peitha's cousin is this one: https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Irja (and there is no indication of such relationship in the story)

The kryptis whom Peitha called a cousin and refered later to as such is Heitor https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Heitor and Heitor consumed Irja just before the fight with Peitha, Arina, Ramses and the Wayfinder.

There is no lore I would be aware of, to indicate what is relationship of Peitha with Ignaxious.

TL:DR:
Ignaxious - unknown is a cousin of Peitha, but irrelevant to the thread,
Irja - not a cousin of Peitha
Heitor - cousin of Peitha

Edited November 12, 2023 by Lord Trejgon.2809

[Ashantara.8731]

1 minute ago, Lord Trejgon.2809 said:

The link you provided is to page on Ignacious

Ignaxious, and yes, I linked the wrong Wiki page -- oops! Corrected. 🙂

[Trejgon.9367]

2 hours ago, mandala.8507 said:

If you were paying attention like you claim, you'd already know he's her uncle.

I thought I was paying attention, and I caught no reference to Eparch, being blood related to Peitha, and especially not such direct statements as uncle 🤔

 

3 minutes ago, Ashantara.8731 said:

Ignaxious, and yes, I linked the wrong Wiki page -- oops! Corrected. 🙂

Right, that's the typo that gives me a lot of headache 😐 dude has a weird name.

[AlPower.2476]

I enjoyed the beginning of the SOTO story, even though I acknowledge it wasn't 'excellent'. But the last episode was terrible.

Moreover, several plotlines are quite poorly executed. You've already pointed out one that felt awkward during gameplay.

Take, for instance, the comparison of Cerus to Eparch at the same 'Threat level' by Peitha. But...

Spoiler

Just a few chapters later, we easily defeat Cerus, simply because Peitha neutralized Nayos' realm debuff.

They could have prolonged Cerus' presence in the story. He could have been portrayed as a hunter trying to catch us over several update chapters, not just in the main SOTO storyline. A demon whose true nature and strength remain elusive even to high-tier Kriptis like Peitha and Eparch.

But unfortunately, Cerus turned out to be not as formidable as expected. He only defeated us because of Nayos' weakening effect. He was nothing more than a disappointing lackey of Eparch."

Other plothole

We have been adviced that Kriptis are not a big deal compared with, for example, Elder Dragons.

But Kriptis didn't really feel as a threat. Even Joko seemed more capable than Eparch as a "deadly king".

But the commander was mad 'cause The Wizard tower didn't help against ED, trying to say that with their help, the battle would have been by way too much easier. Dude, they're struggling agaisnt such weaklings like kriptis xD

Having said that, I liked SOTO more than EoD (speaking about story)

 

Edited November 12, 2023 by AlPower.2476

[draxynnic.3719]

9 hours ago, Ashantara.8731 said:

I was paying attention, and no one said anything about "evil", but we don't really know what she has planned after Eparch.

Demons are not the good guys in general. 😉 I was merely suggesting that she might take over the throne to ensure no second Eparch happens. Whether that comes with a hunger for power remains to be seen.

We don't really know anything about what the social structure of their realm looked like before Eparch's reign. All we know is that he is stealing their dreams and makes them suffer (is even feeding on them), and that he has established some sort of "nobility" versus the "common demons" society.

Demons aren't 'good guys' in general, but GW2 mostly tries to avoid the Always Chaotic Evil trope. 'Demon', in the GW context, basically means a creature of the Mists, which is often inimical to Tyrians.

The Kryptis have a bit of development that explains this. They feed on emotion, and mass murder is an effective way to generate a pretty intense spike of emotions (and eating flesh also seems to be something they can do). Peitha's dialogue, and the Rata Novus fractal events, indicate that they don't actually need to inflict suffering in order to feed on emotion, and they may even be able to feed on the emotions of dreams in Nayos. So their current behaviour seems to be more about gluttony than something they need to do to survive. Under different leadership, though, they might be more benign in nature.

Such a switch might result in them no longer being described as demons, of course - but I get the impression Eparch has been in charge for a long time.

[Kalavier.1097]

6 hours ago, AlPower.2476 said:

But unfortunately, Cerus turned out to be not as formidable as expected. He only defeated us because of Nayos' weakening effect. He was nothing more than a disappointing lackey of Eparch."

But the commander was mad 'cause The Wizard tower didn't help against ED, trying to say that with their help, the battle would have been by way too much easier. Dude, they're struggling agaisnt such weaklings like kriptis xD

People love to downplay the fact the commander gets help a lot don't they? Cerus was killed in a two vs one, not a one vs one.

You do know the Astral Ward, after repelling the first push and getting the wizards back up, weren't having trouble with Kryptis right? Frode casually mentions they've dealt with five rift attacks that didn't involve the commander.

"weaklings like Kryptis" sounds an awful lot like somebody who is leaning way too hard into gameplay vs lore.

[Trejgon.9367]

12 hours ago, AlPower.2476 said:

I enjoyed the beginning of the SOTO story, even though I acknowledge it wasn't 'excellent'. But the last episode was terrible.

Moreover, several plotlines are quite poorly executed. You've already pointed out one that felt awkward during gameplay.

Take, for instance, the comparison of Cerus to Eparch at the same 'Threat level' by Peitha. But...

  Reveal hidden contents

Just a few chapters later, we easily defeat Cerus, simply because Peitha neutralized Nayos' realm debuff.

They could have prolonged Cerus' presence in the story. He could have been portrayed as a hunter trying to catch us over several update chapters, not just in the main SOTO storyline. A demon whose true nature and strength remain elusive even to high-tier Kriptis like Peitha and Eparch.

But unfortunately, Cerus turned out to be not as formidable as expected. He only defeated us because of Nayos' weakening effect. He was nothing more than a disappointing lackey of Eparch."

Other plothole

We have been adviced that Kriptis are not a big deal compared with, for example, Elder Dragons.

But Kriptis didn't really feel as a threat. Even Joko seemed more capable than Eparch as a "deadly king".

But the commander was mad 'cause The Wizard tower didn't help against ED, trying to say that with their help, the battle would have been by way too much easier. Dude, they're struggling agaisnt such weaklings like kriptis xD

Having said that, I liked SOTO more than EoD (speaking about story)

 

You are incorrect in several points in regard to Cerus.

Firstly, it is not Peitha that negated environemntal debuff on us, it was Isarren using the last of bit power he had at his disposal.

After which, barring some gameplay-not-lore extremities, the commander is only surviving against Cerus untill Peitha arrives. Only then with Combined power of Peitha and Commander (shielded from environmental effect by Isgarren) Cerus falls.

Claiming that Joko is more capable than Eparch in any capacity, is baseless, because so far the only info on Eparch we had, are second-handed stories. We didn't see what the fellow can do. We only meet his minions, some stronger than others, and some generals. Cerus was toughter fight imo than Archon Iberu. Even after taking into the account I had to kill Iberu like three times. Average Kryptis fodder is actually tankier than average awakened fodder.

On the aspect of why giving Isgarren crap for his non-interference approach - the Wizards of the court, have access to some very advanced magic, aside from mantaining a shield around whole of tyria, that generally prevented any large scale incursions from the mists since the last dragon cycle is impressive feat on it's own, but also ability to do it, while not drawing Dragons attention is a feat on it's own. And such advanced Magics, could have helped greatly in the fight.

More so, pretty much whole court until the beginning of SotO story were wizards old enough that they did see the previous cycle, they knew things about dragons that we had to find out the hard way. Such a knowledge would definitelly help reduce casualties Tyria suffered in that fight.

[Konig Des Todes.2086]

On 11/9/2023 at 10:07 AM, Jaken.6801 said:

A group of people, pulled into the very realm of things, they struggle to keep at bay at the moment. A group of people who got knocked out and pulled in the last time we saw them.

This group of people was stranded there, in a hostile enviroment, with only the help of two Kryptis. Even if one of them is powerful, she didn't seem to be around all the time.

We also see these "specialized people" lamenting their losses again and aagain. That this is supposed to be a threat to be taken seriously. That they need the numbers and are struggling.

Why should be take the Kryptis threat seriously, if a small group can survive, without any visible aid on a supposed frontline? Even if they are highly trained, there are limits.

"they struggle to keep at bay"

Proof you didn't pay attention to the SotO story.

The Astral Ward never struggled to keep Kryptis at bay for hundreds of years. The only reason it became an issue in SotO was because of the Void outbreak rending the Wizard's Court's defenses and damaging the World Spire, giving Kryptis an unusual and unexpected upper hand while the WC/AW were distracted with Void. As Frode says at the very beginning of SotO: "This is all new to us too." And this is stressed - in the golden path - multiple times, especially at the very beginning.

The whole plot of SotO is the Astral Ward recovering (and not even struggling to recover) from a once in a millennia event of the Kryptis gaining the upper hand - there are some lore books that establish that Kryptis only managed a large invasion like seen in SotO twice before in 3,000+ years.

So yeah, the Astral Ward were not struggling to keep Kryptis at bay. The lamenting their losses "again and again" was over the same singular event which all happened at once, and we see them recover by themselves without our aid in SotO, let alone here. And when the kryptis attention is on Amnytas, it's pretty easy to survive in the fringes of their territory. It'd be like complaining that French soldiers survived in German-occupied territory that's hundreds of miles away from the main force of the army or German cities during WWII.

 

Honestly, the only plot hole I've seen so far in Through the Veil is the fact that the bridge leading to the next part of the map is a) beyond the "barrier" keeping Peitha, Arina, and Ramses out (one we can just waltz past at that), and b) with an easily accessible ledge that completely bypasses Heitor's Gate with immense ease to the point that it's laughable that there's constant talks about needing to go through Heitor's Gate.

The map designers really flubbed that one up. With all the talks of Heitor's Gate being this fortress that blocks all access, I was expecting something on par to the Ebony Citadel. A large, imposing tower with high walls that skyscales can't easily climb over full of ominous and malicious design.

Instead it's a kittening hole in a hill.

[Konig Des Todes.2086]

On 11/10/2023 at 10:11 PM, mandala.8507 said:

3. It showed the compassion Peitha and Ramses have for their kin, both by their distress when Irja was consumed, but also by their attempts to initially win Heitor over despite her flaws and inherent cruelty. Even after she consumes poor Irja, they plead with her to reconsider and join them on another path forward for their people. Peitha attempts to brush off the emotions rising within her after slaying Heitor, but through Ramses and our own interactions with her after suggesting she's so clear-minded about all this, we're given a glimpse at Peitha and her allies' inner confliction.

Any player operating under the assumption Peitha's not to be trusted at this point is probably doomed to misunderstand the story as it moves forward. Peitha and her motivations are clearly good, and the Commander knew this before they ever stepped foot in Nayos with her. But whether or not she can keep her resolve and follow through to the end of this coup is a different question altogether. She has deep ties to all the players involved, and the labels "hero" and "villain" probably feel entirely inadequate and binary to her in this moment. Peitha likely views Heitor ultimately as a victim; too scared and weak to fight back against her father, and her evil acts being a consequence of that. Despite the horrors she's witnessing, she's still struggling to see them solely as the enemy. It's not so black and white for her as it is for us.

Personally, I dislike this part of Through the Veil.

It's not bad per se, but I don't really like the idea of demons being "good guys".

Peitha has been confirmed to be someone who has killed and consumed others in the past, and I think she'd be a far more interesting character if she wasn't a good guy, but an anti-villain. A character who is evil, who did and does things the Commander would 100% disagree with, but is both smart enough to realize not to antagonize the Commander but ally with them, and with enough sense of self-preservation to not show those deeds to the Commander.

That was the route I thought they were going with Peitha with SotO. I'm sad that they decided to drop it for yet another "good guy female side character of previously assumed wholly evil faction who replaces the evil male leader". I know ANet's leftist progressive and this is only obvious if you look for it but kitten, can we get a new character dynamic?

On 11/10/2023 at 11:34 PM, Peregrine Falcon.5496 said:

Not necessarily. Peitha could simply be using the Commander to overthrow Eparch because of her own desire for power. Just because she's been careful to act the good guy around the Caommander doesn't mean that she is.

And nothing she's done prevents her from turning on the Commander once their usefulness has come to an end. Not that she's likely to, but it could happen.

On 11/11/2023 at 4:27 AM, Luthan.5236 said:

Edit: I also agree on the Peitha thing: While they made a good job depicting her as someone that is not evil and wants to help their people ... it could be that she is just good at acting. I mean ... with this set up and her doing pretty well at deceiving the commander ... such a reveal would hit much harder. Feel more entertaining to experience. While not being totally random - since ... Kryptis are just good at manipulating.

I dunno, the way they dressed Peitha up here. She's either a Grade A actor where the inevitable betrayal will basically be a "Lazarus is Balthazar" situation where we have last minute hints that something is up but what's actually up comes out of left field with the "hints" to it being so obtuse that you'd only recognize them as even being hints if you already knew the outcome.

It's always hard to tell when obscure intentional hints are intentional or not when they're of the same level of random stuff is random. For example with the Lazarus real identity there were two "obvious" hints that Lazarus was Balthazar in E1 and E2... In E1, when Lazarus is revealed, some random white Mantle is wielding a shield of Balthazar. But a) the WM is not allied with Lazarus, he's just a rando put in the same shot, and b) last time ANet gave a character a story-meaningful weapon, it was Canach with the Shield of the Moon, just for players to be told "oh we just picked something sylvari looking, Canach's shield has no relation to Tiachren". And in E2, Lazarus uses fire skills and gives the Commander the skill Divine Spite but a) mursaat call themselves gods despite not being such and b) Lazarus was an (air) elementalist and with GW2 elementalists being all-elements it's not unreasonable to assume Lazarus would be all-elements too.

So yeah the hints were there but there was perfect justification for it just being "oh, game did this already so it's doing it again" rather than "WAIT SOMETHING IS OFF!!!" Some folks did catch those hints, but a lot of folks dismissed it as game being game.

Imo, at this point it'd be an obvious but disingenuous plot twist for Peitha to betray the commander. People have suspected her betrayal almost immediately (cuz demon) and them going the extra mile effort to make it seem like she definitely 100% wouldn't, would just make it a "well duh it was obvious they were building up for it" but also it'd be as said, disingenuous.

On 11/12/2023 at 7:58 AM, mandala.8507 said:

On 11/12/2023 at 7:14 AM, Ashantara.8731 said:

Demons are not the good guys in general.

A bold assumption for a game like GW2 and a world like Tyria.

Not that bold when the literal lore statement from an OoC perspective is effectively "demons are formed from malignant energies in the Mists and are instinctively inclined to hate all living things". Or to quote the Nightfall manual verbatim:

Demons are more than creatures of the Mists—they are made from the Mists themselves, bits of etheric matter that have gained malignant sentience and power. Whether they appear as monstrous humanoids, bestial abominations, or radically inhuman horrors, they share many of the same aspirations: the strong consume or dominate the weak, reveling in their feasts and victimization. As they are not native to the real world, demons hold an abiding hatred of its denizens. They are also ruthlessly intelligent, more than willing to enter into arrangements that allow them to routinely prey on humans and other foolish living creatures.

There are, of course, the rare exception like Razah. But they are explicitly stated to be rare exceptions. An entire kryptis civilization would not be "rare".

[Konig Des Todes.2086]

On 11/12/2023 at 1:06 PM, Lord Trejgon.2809 said:

Right, that's the typo that gives me a lot of headache 😐 dude has a weird name.

He's just discount joko.

Shares a name, but changes spelling to try to look cool and original, but has none of the gravitas of the original.

[Konig Des Todes.2086]

On 11/12/2023 at 5:22 PM, draxynnic.3719 said:

Demons aren't 'good guys' in general, but GW2 mostly tries to avoid the Always Chaotic Evil trope.

Unless you're krait, naga, or centaur. 🙃

On 11/12/2023 at 5:22 PM, draxynnic.3719 said:

'Demon', in the GW context, basically means a creature of the Mists, which is often inimical to Tyrians.

I disagree, because there are many Mists creatures never once called demons - e.g., the beings born from Fractals or the Astral creatures.

Demons are instead called to be born from malignant energies in the Mists with innate hatred of mortals - with rare, unique exceptions like Razah. Demons are specifically made from "evil" energy in the Mists, basically, which drives them to be carnivorous or parasitic in nature to other natural inhabitants of the Mists, primarily souls.

Despite SotO's explanation of Kryptis, GW1 also established that demons have a rather... kratocratic society, where the strong rule over the weak. Basically exactly what Eparch is doing, but with a bit less structure as the Kryptis are the only ones to have noble houses (as far as we know).

On 11/12/2023 at 8:03 PM, Kalavier.1097 said:

People love to downplay the fact the commander gets help a lot don't they? Cerus was killed in a two vs one, not a one vs one.

Three vs one, technically, since (a weakened) Isgarren was buffing the Commander just to barely match up to Cerus.

[draxynnic.3719]

1 minute ago, Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

Unless you're krait, naga, or centaur. 🙃

I disagree, because there are many Mists creatures never once called demons - e.g., the beings born from Fractals or the Astral creatures.

Demons are instead called to be born from malignant energies in the Mists with innate hatred of mortals - with rare, unique exceptions like Razah. Demons are specifically made from "evil" energy in the Mists, basically, which drives them to be carnivorous or parasitic in nature to other natural inhabitants of the Mists, primarily souls.

Despite SotO's explanation of Kryptis, GW1 also established that demons have a rather... kratocratic society, where the strong rule over the weak. Basically exactly what Eparch is doing, but with a bit less structure as the Kryptis are the only ones to have noble houses (as far as we know).

Three vs one, technically, since (a weakened) Isgarren was buffing the Commander just to barely match up to Cerus.

There are friendly centaurs, and the naga have been generally portrayed as sympathetic antagonists of a sort (and they used to be friendly). Krait are the exception.

Regarding demons, I don't recall any indication that they have to be formed from "evil" energy in the Mists. It's possible, but not a necessary condition. Instead, it seems to be a pejorative term - a mistformed entity that is not viewed as a threat would not be called a demon. (Fractal entities are special cases in that they're typically direct copies of specific individuals.)

Nayos, in particular, does not appear to be evil by nature. Parts of it do appear to be twisted, however (the Temple of Febe). Eparch seems to have been in charge (and hostile) for long enough that it makes sense they'd be viewed as demons, but that doesn't mean they all are. Overall, it appears as if, possession trick or no, the Kryptis are ultimately more interested in emotions than souls - but evoking fear is an effective way to generate intense emotion quickly.

Personally, I think it's also interesting that Eparch seems to have cut off many of the Kryptis from dreams (and the emotions coming through them, which is likely how the Kryptis are sustained under natural conditions). Comes across as the sort of move that might be intended to deliberately starve them in order to be able to send them into Tyria hungry for the most intense emotions they can elicit.

[mandala.8507]

5 hours ago, Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

Personally, I dislike this part of Through the Veil.

It's not bad per se, but I don't really like the idea of demons being "good guys".

It's funny you should say that, because you yourself (and many others) identified that they are drawing from a lot of Greek culture for this expansion, and the word "demon" actually comes from ancient Greek and doesn't have the negative connotation we associate with the word today.

To the ancient Greeks, it simply referred to a spirit or a divine power.

It's only when ancient Abrahamic religions needed a way to demonize (pun intended) the old pagan spirits and gods that the term began to be associated solely with darker influences and malevolence.

Many cultures around the world have a less binary view historically of beings we call demons, and those viewpoints (I believe) are the inspiration for the current Kryptis lore. We presumed from their violent insurgences that the Kyrptis as a whole were inherently evil, but that doesn't seem to be the case now. Our expectations were subverted, which is better than rehashing stale old demon tropes, imo. I like that they're bending the mold here. Peitha would be such a snoozefest of a character otherwise and I'd have very little interest in the story from a character perspective in Nayos. How do they get us to care about demon politics and the survival of the Kryptis by the end of the story if they have no redeeming or sympathizable qualities?

If they're all evil, why would we bother to save them from themselves?

I'm hoping they do what I think they're doing and have us come to odds ideologically with Isgarren over this. Have the Commander move past their prejudice of the demons while Isgarren refuses to do so, and play with the idea that he simply can't forgive them and will instead choose to remain shackled by his fear; forcing us to act against him. But maybe that's wanting for too much. This is just a video game, after all. Maybe they don't want to go that far. I'd be impressed if that's where they take it, though.

Make me feel like I have to choose between my wizard friends and my demon friends or die trying to change their minds about one another, you know. The themes concerning prejudice and overcoming preconceptions are already there in the story we have about Isgarren and Mabon. They just have to thread them all the way through this Nayos arc. Give us a truly artful dissonance by making us initially hate and then later fight for these Kryptis against the people we thought were entirely in the right by wanting them gone.

That would be something.

[mandala.8507]

5 hours ago, Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

That was the route I thought they were going with Peitha with SotO. I'm sad that they decided to drop it for yet another "good guy female side character of previously assumed wholly evil faction who replaces the evil male leader".

Is she a good guy side character? I wouldn't describe how she's being portrayed as wholly good or evil. Nor would I call her a side character.

I'd also ask you to bring the receipts on this being an archetype Anet uses often. I can think of zero actual examples off the top of my head, and the only almost fitting (but ultimately incorrect) example I can summon up is Min from EoD. But clearly you are seeing this all the time, so I'd love to know which characters you are referring to.

And is this character something you see often in other media?, because I've never heard of it and the parameters seem...oddly specific.

[Zhaid Zhem.6508]

Krytia wasn't big enough to bring us demon dimension and secret astral sorcerers above our considerations, keeping slaves into looping stories?
I mean okai why not, this isn't necessarily bad, but looks like hat trick from writers who just want to tell their story without taking care of the previous ones and lore.

[Konig Des Todes.2086]

9 hours ago, mandala.8507 said:

It's funny you should say that, because you yourself (and many others) identified that they are drawing from a lot of Greek culture for this expansion, and the word "demon" actually comes from ancient Greek and doesn't have the negative connotation we associate with the word today.

To the ancient Greeks, it simply referred to a spirit or a divine power.

So? That's irrelevant. "Demons" are already long defined in the lore since 2005, you can't just redefine a group out of nowhere just to fit your personal needs of a specific storyline idea.

And demons in GW are neither spirits nor divine. This is this and that is that. Kryptis have taken some inspiration in Greek for their names and nothing more - not architecture, not social structure, and certainly not morality - otherwise Eparch would be kittening all the other kryptis, not eating them.

9 hours ago, mandala.8507 said:

If they're all evil, why would we bother to save them from themselves?

I'm hoping they do what I think they're doing and have us come to odds ideologically with Isgarren over this. Have the Commander move past their prejudice of the demons while Isgarren refuses to do so, and play with the idea that he simply can't forgive them and will instead choose to remain shackled by his fear; forcing us to act against him. But maybe that's wanting for too much. This is just a video game, after all. Maybe they don't want to go that far. I'd be impressed if that's where they take it, though.

Either the Commander is a fool and believes them not to be, or is willing to give them a chance, or it's the same situation as why the Sunspears helped Joko out in GW1: Peitha is the lesser of two evils and one that may leave Tyria, and Tyrians, alone.

The latter is Isgarren's obvious take on it. He doesn't trust Peitha and nor should he if she was written with consistency of lore in mind as she seemingly was in SotO.

I don't care if they make us confront isgarren so long as it's done well, but forcing a major retcon to the worldbuilding just to have some political commentary of prejudices over a group of beings literally made out of cruelty would just be more End of Dragons stupidity all over again. SotO started well, I'm less enthusiastic about TtV, we'll see how it goes.

But I do not play games to be preached to. I do not want a story that tells me the same thing as your typical news feed or twitter posts. I am not opposed to stories that spark philosophical debates in my brain but something like End of Dragons' obvious political commentary - or your suggestion of fighting the old male conservative stuck in his ancient ideologies of racism in defense of the young female leader (literally the same subplot as Minister Li and Joon scenario there, except with a female character who isn't insanely childish and hypocritical) - does not do that.

9 hours ago, mandala.8507 said:

Is she a good guy side character? I wouldn't describe how she's being portrayed as wholly good or evil. Nor would I call her a side character.

She's a side character in that she's not likely to be relevant after this story arch is over. I'd consider such characters, like Zaiem, to be side characters.

And yeah, she's full out portrayed to be the noble good guy with a hidden naughty past in Through the Veil.

9 hours ago, mandala.8507 said:

I'd also ask you to bring the receipts on this being an archetype Anet uses often. I can think of zero actual examples off the top of my head, and the only almost fitting (but ultimately incorrect) example I can summon up is Min from EoD. But clearly you are seeing this all the time, so I'd love to know which characters you are referring to.

Oh I know you're gonna say I'm wrong somehow and I know this is a pendantic target but it really is a "when you look for it, you notice it" - and I'm not the only one who does, over on the GW2 reddit discord it's been brought up by a few others as well. Some examples:

• Soo-Woe - the only good Elder Dragon was a female Elder Dragon (and technically Aurene, too)
• Crecia - originally Flame Legion but is good and redeems the idea of the Flame Legion with Efram's help.
• Mia - replacing the Smodur who got villainized just to push Ryland over the edge as a plot device
• Ambassador Sianna - leads the Awakened after Joko's death
• Zafirah - Zaishen who followed Balthazar, but she's good and hey, she even redeems the group.
• Duchess Crysanda - the new leader of the NIghtmare Court, retroactively in LWS1 made even gooder by opposing the idea of torture among the Court... though she breaks the mold a bit by replacing an evil female leader (but she also predates the heavy handed political commentary era that began in lws4)

And that's just off the top of my head, but there's more. Wouldn't really count Min because while she does replace evil male villain, she doesn't redeem Purists or anything. You see a lot of leadership roles being handed off to female characters in recent years, many replacing male leaders - including in technicality, Empress Ihn (she wasn't first empress but was first one players met to replace the patriarchal Canthan leadership), Min, and others. The amount of male leaders in GW now compared to the start of GW2 (let alone in GW1) is staggering.

And we can add Peitha onto the list.

The idea in of itself isn't bad, but when it's repeated ad infinitum it starts to feel lazy and like writers just using the game as a soap box.

Edited November 17, 2023 by Konig Des Todes.2086

[Trejgon.9367]

2 hours ago, Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

Crecia - originally Flame Legion but is good and redeems the idea of the Flame Legion with Efram's help.

I was under impression that Crecia was undercover operative similar to Rytlock when they met, not actuall member of the flame legion. For whole of IBS Crecia works with Blood Legion, and Efram is the one working to redeem Flame Legion (Crecia's offspring is a member of blood legion too, and he is too old for this to be the part of new deal where Flame Legion sends it's cubs to fahrars of other legions).

[mandala.8507]

8 hours ago, Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

So? That's irrelevant. "Demons" are already long defined in the lore since 2005, you can't just redefine a group out of nowhere just to fit your personal needs of a specific storyline idea.

Sure you can. And it's not bad to do so. "Demons" isn't a concept that needs to be concrete and have an absolute affinity toward the light or the dark. It's like saying the Olmakhan are redefining the Charr out of nowhere, when anyone who isn't trying to put an entire race of people into a box understands that races typically do have multiple cultures within them that evolve over time.

The Kyrptis are more complex than demons we've encountered in the past. It's that simple. Don't overthink it. And if you wanted to rationalize it, they feed on emotion and somewhat mirror ours and other realms. Both good and bad energies are part of their existence. They are a reflection of the dreams that flow to them from other worlds.

Idk why you're so desperate for flat and one-dimensional characters.

8 hours ago, Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

The latter is Isgarren's obvious take on it. He doesn't trust Peitha and nor should he if she was written with consistency of lore in mind as she seemingly was in SotO.

This is just a silly take on what consistency of the lore means. If we always knew how a character was going to behave based on their origin, why bother writing the story. If because she's a demon, she has to be evil and want to backstab us, what's the point? There would be none. It would be a stupid story.

8 hours ago, Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

I don't care if they make us confront isgarren so long as it's done well, but forcing a major retcon to the worldbuilding just to have some political commentary of prejudices over a group of beings literally made out of cruelty would just be more End of Dragons stupidity all over again. SotO started well, I'm less enthusiastic about TtV, we'll see how it goes.

But I do not play games to be preached to. I do not want a story that tells me the same thing as your typical news feed or twitter posts. I am not opposed to stories that spark philosophical debates in my brain but something like End of Dragons' obvious political commentary - or your suggestion of fighting the old male conservative stuck in his ancient ideologies of racism in defense of the young female leader (literally the same subplot as Minister Li and Joon scenario there, except with a female character who isn't insanely childish and hypocritical) - does not do that.

Your thematic functional fixedness about this is tiresome.

You also seem hung up on an entirely manufactured gripe about politics, man. The game isn't preaching to you about anything political with SotO, my guy. Relax.

The sad thing is, all they'd have to do is flip the genders of these characters and you'd be saying none of this. Not every gender dynamic is a commentary on feminism, bro. You're seeing ghosts where there are none.

8 hours ago, Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

The amount of male leaders in GW now compared to the start of GW2 (let alone in GW1) is staggering.

Oh no!!!! The horror!!!!

Just kidding. I don't actually care.

Care to enlighten us as to why this shift matters so much to you though, friend?

[mandala.8507]

9 hours ago, Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

Oh I know you're gonna say I'm wrong somehow and I know this is a pendantic target but it really is a "when you look for it, you notice it" - and I'm not the only one who does, over on the GW2 reddit discord it's been brought up by a few others as well. Some examples:

• Soo-Woe - the only good Elder Dragon was a female Elder Dragon (and technically Aurene, too)
• Crecia - originally Flame Legion but is good and redeems the idea of the Flame Legion with Efram's help.
• Mia - replacing the Smodur who got villainized just to push Ryland over the edge as a plot device
• Ambassador Sianna - leads the Awakened after Joko's death
• Zafirah - Zaishen who followed Balthazar, but she's good and hey, she even redeems the group.
• Duchess Crysanda - the new leader of the NIghtmare Court, retroactively in LWS1 made even gooder by opposing the idea of torture among the Court... though she breaks the mold a bit by replacing an evil female leader (but she also predates the heavy handed political commentary era that began in lws4)

And yeah, I would say you're wrong with these examples, because literally none of them are:

On 11/16/2023 at 10:30 AM, Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

"good guy female side character of previously assumed wholly evil faction who replaces the evil male leader"

Who did Soo-Won replace? No one. She was the first.

Aurene is as main character as it gets, so that one's wrong too. And she was never associated with a faction we consider wholly evil. Dragons have never been wholly evil. We've always had good dragons in GW and GW2.

Crecia became the leader of Blood Legion, not flame legion, and the Blood Legion isn't "a previously assumed wholly evil faction", so again, wrong. Efram is the leader of the flame legion.

Ambassador Sianna is the leader of the Free Aawakened, which is just a subset of the Awakened. There are more male leaders of Awakened factions than female, so incorrect again.

The Zaishen were literally as good guy as it gets until PoF, and Zafirah did not replace Balthazar, lol.

Calling Duchess Chrysanthea a good guy is not a good take, and Faolain was the previous leader of the Nightmare Court, so also wrong.

Got any actual examples, because you're still at zero?

[Ashantara.8731]

21 hours ago, mandala.8507 said:

It's funny you should say that, because you yourself (and many others) identified that they are drawing from a lot of Greek culture for this expansion, and the word "demon" actually comes from ancient Greek and doesn't have the negative connotation we associate with the word today.

To the ancient Greeks, it simply referred to a spirit or a divine power.

It's only when ancient Abrahamic religions needed a way to demonize (pun intended) the old pagan spirits and gods that the term began to be associated solely with darker influences and malevolence.

Many cultures around the world have a less binary view historically of beings we call demons, and those viewpoints (I believe) are the inspiration for the current Kryptis lore. We presumed from their violent insurgences that the Kyrptis as a whole were inherently evil, but that doesn't seem to be the case now. Our expectations were subverted, which is better than rehashing stale old demon tropes, imo. I like that they're bending the mold here. Peitha would be such a snoozefest of a character otherwise and I'd have very little interest in the story from a character perspective in Nayos. How do they get us to care about demon politics and the survival of the Kryptis by the end of the story if they have no redeeming or sympathizable qualities?

If they're all evil, why would we bother to save them from themselves?

I'm hoping they do what I think they're doing and have us come to odds ideologically with Isgarren over this. Have the Commander move past their prejudice of the demons while Isgarren refuses to do so, and play with the idea that he simply can't forgive them and will instead choose to remain shackled by his fear; forcing us to act against him. But maybe that's wanting for too much. This is just a video game, after all. Maybe they don't want to go that far. I'd be impressed if that's where they take it, though.

Make me feel like I have to choose between my wizard friends and my demon friends or die trying to change their minds about one another, you know. The themes concerning prejudice and overcoming preconceptions are already there in the story we have about Isgarren and Mabon. They just have to thread them all the way through this Nayos arc. Give us a truly artful dissonance by making us initially hate and then later fight for these Kryptis against the people we thought were entirely in the right by wanting them gone.

That would be something.

While I appreciate the history lesson, I must point out that we only went with Peitha because she convinced us that the threat she intends to fight was also posing a threat to our world. Hence, the saying "The enemy of my enemy is my friend" applies. Peitha convinced us that those opposing Eparch don't intend to threaten our existence in Tyria. That doesn't make her neither good nor bad, but merely an ally under these circumstances. We can't say for sure that those demons are "good" per se.

Edited November 17, 2023 by Ashantara.8731

[Konig Des Todes.2086]

9 hours ago, Lord Trejgon.2809 said:

I was under impression that Crecia was undercover operative similar to Rytlock when they met, not actuall member of the flame legion. For whole of IBS Crecia works with Blood Legion, and Efram is the one working to redeem Flame Legion (Crecia's offspring is a member of blood legion too, and he is too old for this to be the part of new deal where Flame Legion sends it's cubs to fahrars of other legions).

She was born Flame, her mother defected and Blood took them both in. Crecia's been Blood most of her life but her being born flame and being a fire elementalist is denoted as a specific stigma she had to deal with all her life, though IBS never focuses on it strongly.

Which hilariously is kinda similar to Joon, who is presented as this "self-made woman" entrepreneur who had to struggle with being a woman in a man's society and built herself up, etc. by the devs and out of game material, but most in-game material shows that she benefits from massive nepotism from her sister and her mother's jade business, and is a greedy corporate conglomerate who ousted anyone who disagreed with her and made their businesses illegal.

3 hours ago, mandala.8507 said:

Oh no!!!! The horror!!!!

Just kidding. I don't actually care.

Care to enlighten us as to why this shift matters so much to you though, friend?

In of itself, it doesn't. But when it's used again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again.....

It gets boring as kitten. And it can start to come off, as I said before, as preachy.

Variety is the spice of life.

2 hours ago, mandala.8507 said:

And yeah, I would say you're wrong with these examples, because literally none of them are:

Yeah, of course you'd say this. Even though half your examples are stretching your own defense of them while also being pendantic of the verbatimness of my comment, which completely ignores the entire point and honestly, just makes people not want to deal with you.

Edited November 17, 2023 by Konig Des Todes.2086

[mandala.8507]

1 hour ago, Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

Yeah, of course you'd say this. Even though half your examples are stretching your own defense of them while also being pendantic of the verbatimness of my comment, which completely ignores the entire point and honestly, just makes people not want to deal with you.

Because the only unifying theme I'm getting from your examples is a lamentation of women in power.

And you are the one who made the quote. I didn't force that specificity onto you, you forced it onto yourself. And now you are saying, "well actually, the specifics aren't important". Which leads me to think the above line is the real crux of the problem here for you. 😕