Virtuose, how much can we hate fight against it ?

[whooot.5784]

Imagine beeing a dev: "Hey guys, I have a super idea, let's give to this spec ALL the degenerated defenses mechanics in the game, in the SAME TIME, that could be fun right ? Right ? What do you think about that? That will be fun to fight against, right ..? That should be fun.. no ? "

Let's see....

More aegis than a core guard, check!

Block by billions ?Also check! (even worse now they can use shield)

Invu by trillion ? Check !

Stealth ? Blind? Reflect? Check, check and check !

Teleporte, mobility? Check!

Oooh and let's make their f1,2,3etc also unblockables if treated, like that when he's power, he just can blow up 10k in your teeth, and if it's condi, 20+stacks of confu and he just one shot you with condibomb.

Okay now I've waited all this degenerated things to go off, maybe I can play the game ? GET JUKED SON!!  He has already all his cd back! And there we go again, block block block block block block, invu invu invu invu invu invu invu, dodge, blind, block block block block block, stealth.....

I am not saying this is op or something, I am just saying this is one of the most degenerated spec I've ever seen.

A spec like that shouldn't exist in spvp, period. Pve, I don't care, no one cares, but get ridd off this abomination in spvp plz, and don't EVER EVER dare make it meta by buffing it, I beg you, we beg you, my own cat begs you.

Proof me wrong. Try to defend this abomination.

 

Edited November 15, 2023 by whooot.5784

[Belze Intilie.8436]

Just remove the Distortion on Blurred Insciptions.

[Dari.3654]

Sounds like a l2p issue 😎

[whooot.5784]

This is not a l2p issue bro. I am not the best player, far from it, and I'll never be, but I know how to play the game, I know how to cleanse, I know how to kitte, using walls and pillars etc, I know how to stow my weapon so I don't trigger his shield or scepter block etc, I know how to not die against it.

I just said it is the most absurdly boring and annoying class to fight against, that's all.

[arazoth.7290]

3 hours ago, whooot.5784 said:

Imagine beeing a dev: "Hey guys, I have a super idea, let's give to this spec ALL the degenerated defenses mechanics in the game, in the SAME TIME, that could be fun right ? Right ? What do you think about that? That will be fun to fight against, right ..? That should be fun.. no ? "

Let's see....

More aegis than a core guard, check!

Block by billions ?Also check! (even worse now they can use shield)

Invu by trillion ? Check !

Stealth ? Blind? Reflect? Check, check and check !

Teleporte, mobility? Check!

Oooh and let's make their f1,2,3etc also unblockables if treated, like that when he's power, he just can blow up 10k in your teeth, and if it's condi, 20+stacks of confu and he just one shot you with condibomb.

Okay now I've waited all this degenerated things to go off, maybe I can play the game ? GET JUKED SON!!  He has already all his cd back! And there we go again, block block block block block block, invu invu invu invu invu invu invu, dodge, blind, block block block block block, stealth.....

I am not saying this is op or something, I am just saying this is one of the most degenerated spec I've ever seen.

A spec like that shouldn't exist in spvp, period. Pve, I don't care, no one cares, but get ridd off this abomination in spvp plz, and don't EVER EVER dare make it meta by buffing it, I beg you, we beg you, my own cat begs you.

Proof me wrong. Try to defend this abomination.

 

woot?👀

[arazoth.7290]

Don't hit in shield skill 4: Echo of memory

[Terrorhuz.4695]

Nobody like fighting against a virtuoso, nobody likes fighting as a virtuoso, I have literally no idea what this spec is supposed to do and how. Even the unblockable thing sounds so good, but every unblockable shatter must be preceded with a dodge, so using your unblockable shatters reactively is so clunky. I stated it before and I'll say it again, S**ar did more damage to this game than every other individual dev I can think of. He's not even a bad game designer -nor a bad developer, from a technical point of view-, he just straight up refused to make the game interesting.

[Loules.8601]

Sounds like a 100% “skill issue” 🧐

Also, should we delete all Thieves from PvP too, as some others desired for a long time? 🤔

Edited November 15, 2023 by Loules.8601
Typo

[Jhule.7230]

imagine having a thief avatar and complaining about mesmer on the forums

[Last Crab.6054]

Outside of a humility sig burst from stealth, you should not die to mes as a thief. 

If you can not beat them, they can not catch you, move on.

[JormagSorbet.8079]

You can just walk away from a virtuoso on any class that has movement skills or reasonable access to swiftness. They only win if you entertain them. I think that's pretty fair. 

It's still poorly designed, and surprisingly on brand for the most recent mesmer build for every expansion to date. Chronomancer was unkillable, Then Mirage was, now Virtuoso. Eventually they figure it out though, and at least this one is slow.

Edited November 15, 2023 by JormagSorbet.8079

[Sven.7201]

1 hour ago, Jhule.7230 said:

imagine having a thief avatar and complaining about mesmer on the forums

^

[Trevor Boyer.6524]

Imagine Virtuoso after 28th patch.

[Waffles.5632]

18 minutes ago, Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

Imagine Virtuoso after 28th patch.

Mirage and Chrono gonna be way crazier. There's already a support bunker condi build running around that pretty much stifles all gameplay interactions. Once more people pick it up things will get nasty pretty quick.

[whooot.5784]

4 hours ago, Jhule.7230 said:

imagine having a thief avatar and complaining about mesmer on the forums

I repeat myself, this is not about how to deal against this spec, cause yeah I play thief so I just have to run away, but again this is about the design of this spec itself.
I could play all the others spec in same time, my though on that would be exactly the same.

And yeah btw, thief has also lot of braindead mechanics to, I don't deny it, stealth is a pur kitten, it's also boring and annying  to fight.🙂

But still I'd rather prefer fight billion thiefs than some virtuose actually.

And I do not want virtuose be deleted from this game, all class should have some playables builds, I want virtuose to be strong and playable, but not like that, again, this is about the design of this class itself.

Things that perma block/invu is not healthly for the game.
 

[Eddbopkins.2630]

As an fa ele, it sucks so hard to 1v1 it. I try not to. But most mesmers are light so, even though I don't have a cheat skill like invisibility I can get the down fast enough if they are unaware of me coming in.

But it's tough when I don't got a cheat skill like invisibility cuz they can just turn the camera and see me waddling along. 

Edited November 15, 2023 by Eddbopkins.2630

[Kuma.1503]

Mesmers are an annoying 1v1 in general because of all the visual clutter they spew out. It makes reading their animations more difficult than it needs to be. 

Being confusing is their whole schtick of course, but that doesn't usually translate into being fun to fight. In fact, the trickster archetype is usually one of the most hated in PvP titles. Especially a game all about reading animations like GW2. 

 

Virtuoso ends up being the least obnoxious to fight for me despite their block/invuln spam. I'll give them this, their animations are readable, and their moves are some of the most telegraphed in the game. The visual clutter was really toned down with Virt, expect for situations where skills should be visually noisy. Like F2. 

Balance-wise, they're in a weird spot. They're good duelists but, they need to kite a lot to get things done, which makes holding node awkward. Distortion will also cause them to lose cap progress.

They're also not ideal in teamfights because they want you to focus them in order for them to generate maximum value. If the team simply focuses them last, they end up pumping out less damage than an actual teamfight DPS. This puts them in an uncomfortable situation where they're never quite able to utilize their kit to is maximum potential. 

As roamers, they end up being worse thieves. They've got excellent defensive tools, but their mobility and chase potential leaves a lot to be desired. 

You've got something that is theoretically broken, but it isn't able to actually leverage the things that makes it broken in conquest. 

 

 

Edited November 16, 2023 by Kuma.1503

[whooot.5784]

9 hours ago, Jhule.7230 said:

imagine having a thief avatar and complaining about mesmer on the forums

Imagine having a frog avatar and complaining about someone who's complaining on the forum ?

[Dari.3654]

So what i read in the OP is "i dont wanna counterplay into virtuosos blocks, because that would mean i cant just spam buttons"

Because quite frankly. Imo virtuoso is one of the most interactive targets atm. Stowing blocks requires fast reactions and reasonable prediction. Virtuoso loses alot of damage when you learn to outplay their "blockspam", as they will generate very little blades in that scenario. Wich in turn means less aegis, and in case of the metabuild, less heals from signet.

  As opposed to many classes where it is "use your skills faster then they do"

 

I know this might be a hottake for some. Excuse my wild ideas. Im at wörk atm and barely functional

[Sweetbread.3678]

20 hours ago, Kuma.1503 said:

Being confusing is their whole schtick of course, but that doesn't usually translate into being fun to fight. In fact, the trickster archetype is usually one of the most hated in PvP titles. Especially a game all about reading animations like GW2. 

It really is an archetype that just straight-up should not be included in pvp games. I really don't know why devs keep trying to make "unpunishable pile of horrible to fight gimmicks with microscopic counterplay" a thing, because, shockingly, designing extremely frustrating playstyles that seem to be explicitly catered to trolling/being a gigantic coward doesn't help build a strong pvp community. I guess they just tunnel vision on the "wouldn't it be fun to play as" part of design while completely forgetting that "would this be fun to play against" is just as important in a pvp environment that depends on players not actively hating to play within it. Ironically the one time I've seen it pulled it off without feeling like total bullkitten was the GW1 Mesmer, but GW2 was simplified waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay too much (the root of 99% of it's issues really) for that kind of nuanced design to ever function here.
 

19 hours ago, Kuma.1503 said:

Virtuoso ends up being the least obnoxious to fight for me despite their block/invuln spam. I'll give them this, their animations are readable, and their moves are some of the most telegraphed in the game. The visual clutter was really toned down with Virt, expect for situations where skills should be visually noisy. Like F2. 

Agreed, but that lack of visual noise still works in their favor since now they don't even have to worry about their clone ammunition being destroyed. Just a different, lighter flavor of bulkitten I suppose. Still better to deal with than a kittening Mirage or Chrono though, I'll give you that.

[Deadmoose.6594]

On 11/15/2023 at 4:20 AM, whooot.5784 said:

Imagine beeing a dev: "Hey guys, I have a super idea, let's give to this spec ALL the degenerated defenses mechanics in the game, in the SAME TIME, that could be fun right ? Right ? What do you think about that? That will be fun to fight against, right ..? That should be fun.. no ? "

Let's see....

More aegis than a core guard, check!

Block by billions ?Also check! (even worse now they can use shield)

Invu by trillion ? Check !

Stealth ? Blind? Reflect? Check, check and check !

Teleporte, mobility? Check!

Oooh and let's make their f1,2,3etc also unblockables if treated, like that when he's power, he just can blow up 10k in your teeth, and if it's condi, 20+stacks of confu and he just one shot you with condibomb.

Okay now I've waited all this degenerated things to go off, maybe I can play the game ? GET JUKED SON!!  He has already all his cd back! And there we go again, block block block block block block, invu invu invu invu invu invu invu, dodge, blind, block block block block block, stealth.....

I am not saying this is op or something, I am just saying this is one of the most degenerated spec I've ever seen.

A spec like that shouldn't exist in spvp, period. Pve, I don't care, no one cares, but get ridd off this abomination in spvp plz, and don't EVER EVER dare make it meta by buffing it, I beg you, we beg you, my own cat begs you.

Proof me wrong. Try to defend this abomination.

 

yeah but they're damage isn't really that good if you evade and wait, just tell your team to pile on a virt and its over for them. I haven't encountered a virt in a while that I couldn't wreck and I exclusively play as chrono.

[Flowki.7194]

He might be a thief, but he isn't wrong.

 

On 11/15/2023 at 5:03 PM, JormagSorbet.8079 said:

They only win if you entertain them. I think that's pretty fair. 

 

If virt had the highest skill floor and ceiling in the game, that kind of 1v1 dominance could then be considered ''pretty fair''. The ability to spam invulns and blocks which lets you face tank while attacking is never going to be the makings of a high skill floor spec.

 

One of the most difficult aspects of putting out burst on a well balanced spec is timing, becuase when doing burst, you are also wide open to being burst down. The most problomatic specs right now have broken that timing requirement, by spamming blocks/immunes which allow them to throw decent timing out the window, and spew out their burst while being immune to being burst down. It has litterally rock bottomed the skill floor across the game. Obviously its a little ironic from the OP thief since jump > burst > target drop > jump > burst > target drop, has a similar effect as just spamming immunes.. but sure, it takes a little more effort.

Edited November 16, 2023 by Flowki.7194

[Deadmoose.6594]

4 hours ago, Flowki.7194 said:

One of the most difficult aspects of putting out burst on a well balanced spec is timing, becuase when doing burst, you are also wide open to being burst down. The most problomatic specs right now have broken that timing requirement, by spamming blocks/immunes which allow them to throw decent timing out the window, and spew out their burst while being immune to being burst down. It has litterally rock bottomed the skill floor across the game. Obviously its a little ironic from the OP thief since jump > burst > target drop > jump > burst > target drop, has a similar effect as just spamming immunes.. but sure, it takes a little more effort.

I think it really comes down to making the game mode more streamlined as opposed to rock bottoming the skill floor. If you know what to expect out of an enemy, it becomes more a chess match and less who is better at their spec. I'd rather have a chess match than a fight with two confused people who don't know how to play that well. Some of the best fights I've ever had regardless of outcome were more like chess matches. That being said, I've never been a fan of abilities that allow people to be taken out of combat, or abilities that negate a player from doing anything defensively, yet those still exist in the game and will never go away.

[Sansar.1302]

5 hours ago, Flowki.7194 said:

He might be a thief, but he isn't wrong.

 

If virt had the highest skill floor and ceiling in the game, that kind of 1v1 dominance could then be considered ''pretty fair''. The ability to spam invulns and blocks which lets you face tank while attacking is never going to be the makings of a high skill floor spec.

 

One of the most difficult aspects of putting out burst on a well balanced spec is timing, becuase when doing burst, you are also wide open to being burst down. The most problomatic specs right now have broken that timing requirement, by spamming blocks/immunes which allow them to throw decent timing out the window, and spew out their burst while being immune to being burst down. It has litterally rock bottomed the skill floor across the game. Obviously its a little ironic from the OP thief since jump > burst > target drop > jump > burst > target drop, has a similar effect as just spamming immunes.. but sure, it takes a little more effort.

Like how you said it, argee alot with you on this.

[Flowki.7194]

18 hours ago, Deadmoose.6594 said:

I think it really comes down to making the game mode more streamlined as opposed to rock bottoming the skill floor. If you know what to expect out of an enemy, it becomes more a chess match and less who is better at their spec. I'd rather have a chess match than a fight with two confused people who don't know how to play that well. Some of the best fights I've ever had regardless of outcome were more like chess matches. That being said, I've never been a fan of abilities that allow people to be taken out of combat, or abilities that negate a player from doing anything defensively, yet those still exist in the game and will never go away.

There is no fair chess involved when you are playing a spec that cannot attack while immune versus a spec that can. That is like the opponents King being able to move 2 spaces istead of 1, which would make it significantly more difficult to check mate, and for no added effort from the opponent.

 

This is the thing I have against being able to attack while immune. If they could not do that, and I am outplaying them (forcing them to pop defensive immune) I get to keep my immune or dodge or block as the reward.. rather than having to counter pop even though I put them on the back foot. When I play ele or rev for example, its very noticable when you get put on the back foot, immune/staff blocking etc. Its harder to get off the back foot becuase your pressure then drops. When I play chrono/ranger/warrior, I can very quickly swap that back foot around on them, by being able to pop immune and burst. That happens when I don't even deserve to swap pressure, when I clearly got jumped through not paying attention, or outplayed. Its not good game design.

Edited November 17, 2023 by Flowki.7194