What's up with the ground targeted AOE obssession?

[Firebeard.1746]

Engi's Shortbow, Mesmer's Rifle 3 all look ground targeted. I personally dislike ground targeted abilities because they take longer to set up if you don't use auto-targeting, and  I just find them cludgy. Why is the dev team going hard on them? Mesmer dagger 3 revamp is also slightly irritating. Did the devs ever explain why they like this? 

[DeanBB.4268]

I agree. I like the idea of the thief shortbow, but it's just exhausting to use. I expect the engi shortbow to be even worse, adding in the explode mechanic.

But I'll wait to see how it actually plays before deciding for sure.

[Anthony.8056]

I like ground target aoes for a certain number of abilities that make sense for the skill. I agree that I'm getting bothered by changeing skills to be aoe. I hated the fact that they changed Dust Devil for elementalist to be stationary aoe instead of projectile and also unstable bladestorm for virtuoso, when it was fine as a projectile, which was fun to send out. I don't understand the reason for those changes. I also wish they would rework staff for necromancer since all their skills are also ground target aoes with no variaty in animation.

[Zzik.5873]

Engi as already grenade kit and mortar, wich are use in about every meta build, that are 5 aoe kit. Shortbow is another one!?!, seruously anet wtf? I lost my golem for a mortar kit 2.0!?! Really...?

[Shagie.7612]

because projectile hate has been ridiculous since EoD dropped and you gotta work around it somehow for any ranged weapon to exist in pvp/wvw

[Firebeard.1746]

4 hours ago, Shagie.7612 said:

because projectile hate has been ridiculous since EoD dropped and you gotta work around it somehow for any ranged weapon to exist in pvp/wvw

Then make them ground-targeted in in PVP/WvW only. That being said though: Can't you totally mess someone up for using projectiles with reflects? Or was that the complaint, that it was too easy to counter? I'm just now hearing this. 

[Shagie.7612]

1 hour ago, Firebeard.1746 said:

Then make them ground-targeted in in PVP/WvW only.

They're not gonna make an entire weapon kit function completely differently between modes, lol. Use snap targeting if that's how you'd like to use them.

1 hour ago, Firebeard.1746 said:

That being said though: Can't you totally mess someone up for using projectiles with reflects? Or was that the complaint, that it was too easy to counter? I'm just now hearing this. 

Mag aura and other various reflect time went up dramatically, something like say, ranger or rev shortbow builds don't get a lot of chances to attack compared to something like thief or ele scepter, which aren't projectile based. It's so common that they explicitly mention it in the blog post.
Engi shortbow completely bypasses that by being unblockable. It's a support weapon, so it's not as likely to cause problems as a dps one, but it still means you don't have to even consider any form of projectile hate.

There's been times where projectile hate was weak and that wasn't good, but it's swung waaaaay in the opposite direction right now.

[ShadowKatt.6740]

2 hours ago, Shagie.7612 said:

Use snap targeting if that's how you'd like to use them.

Oh, yeah, that would be a GREAT idea.....IF ANYONE KNEW ABOUT IT.

Seriously, I have been playing this game since Beta. This thread is the first time I've heard about this option. I'm legally blind and have been struggling with ground targetted abilities since the beginning of this game because NOTHING, NOWHERE, EVER told me I had an option. It wasn't til this thread popped up that I even knew I could research how to turn that on, or that there even was an option TO turn on. Anet has got to do a better job of making sure people know these things even exist.

[Zaret.1450]

17 hours ago, Firebeard.1746 said:

Engi's Shortbow, Mesmer's Rifle 3 all look ground targeted. I personally dislike ground targeted abilities because they take longer to set up if you don't use auto-targeting, and  I just find them cludgy. Why is the dev team going hard on them? Mesmer dagger 3 revamp is also slightly irritating. Did the devs ever explain why they like this? 

The answer is simple in fact, in pve it doesnt make much of a difference but for wvw where projectile blocks and reflects are abundant, ground targeted aoe skills like necro staff or the new engi shortbow means you can play with them without being bothered by those block/reflects.

Think that in a wvw scuad with 4-5 guardians (moreso if theyre suport firebrands) were talking about an almost permanent projectile block where only necro staff, wells and other grould targeted aoe skills can actualy be usefull , either that or a melee train.

[Zaret.1450]

1 hour ago, ShadowKatt.6740 said:

Oh, yeah, that would be a GREAT idea.....IF ANYONE KNEW ABOUT IT.

Seriously, I have been playing this game since Beta. This thread is the first time I've heard about this option. I'm legally blind and have been struggling with ground targetted abilities since the beginning of this game because NOTHING, NOWHERE, EVER told me I had an option. It wasn't til this thread popped up that I even knew I could research how to turn that on, or that there even was an option TO turn on. Anet has got to do a better job of making sure people know these things even exist.

that option is at the same time good and not so good, if the target moves youre leaving your skills behind him when you vould leave them in their paths , also those options have been there for quite some time so...XD

[Anthony.8056]

To make most skills ground target just for the purpose of pvp/wvw is also ridiculous, otherwise why even have projectiles. Every person has ways to react and counter projectiles or let them hit you. My point is they shouldn't be changed for competitive modes because people are bad at how they respond to a situation. We have weapon swap for a reason, so use another skill until you find an opening to use that projectile. Competitive modes are skill based after all, learn how to use those skill instead of making all skills centered around pvp/wvw. Looking at utility skills across some of these classes, you can tell they are for competitve modes and not pve, which is why they are never used in open world. I really hope they change that in the future.

[Sandzibar.5134]

9 hours ago, Firebeard.1746 said:

Then make them ground-targeted in in PVP/WvW only. That being said though: Can't you totally mess someone up for using projectiles with reflects? Or was that the complaint, that it was too easy to counter? I'm just now hearing this. 

OR

and here's a REAL CRAZY idea.

maybe TONE DOWN the rampant projectile hate that makes anything other than wells/symbols and melee cleave non-viable?

🤡

[Zaret.1450]

3 hours ago, Anthony.8056 said:

To make most skills ground target just for the purpose of pvp/wvw is also ridiculous, otherwise why even have projectiles. Every person has ways to react and counter projectiles or let them hit you. My point is they shouldn't be changed for competitive modes because people are bad at how they respond to a situation. We have weapon swap for a reason, so use another skill until you find an opening to use that projectile. Competitive modes are skill based after all, learn how to use those skill instead of making all skills centered around pvp/wvw. Looking at utility skills across some of these classes, you can tell they are for competitve modes and not pve, which is why they are never used in open world. I really hope they change that in the future.

the problem is , it is not because you adapt badly or anything, its just that just firebrands have 2 great projectile reflects, while also having shield 5 for projectile block, then tempest have magnetic aura, and thats just 2 classes of the 9 there are in the game, with just those 2 you can have perma projectile inmunity in any good scuad, also there is no real problem in a new weapon being like this shortbow, some will like it , some not, it will have its uses if its not awfull and its different enought from necros staff, whether you like it or not the weapon looks promising and timing things sounds entertaining for some.

[Batalix.2873]

Okay, you got me. It's me. I'm the reason for all the ground targeting. Kitten love it, can't get enough of it.

[Anthony.8056]

1 hour ago, Zaret.1450 said:

the problem is , it is not because you adapt badly or anything, its just that just firebrands have 2 great projectile reflects, while also having shield 5 for projectile block, then tempest have magnetic aura, and thats just 2 classes of the 9 there are in the game, with just those 2 you can have perma projectile inmunity in any good scuad, also there is no real problem in a new weapon being like this shortbow, some will like it , some not, it will have its uses if its not awfull and its different enought from necros staff, whether you like it or not the weapon looks promising and timing things sounds entertaining for some.

If the problem in pvp/wvw game modes are because of projectile immunity reduce those drastically in that game mode. Why does the skill have to be changed completely to accommodate those modes. They have changed many skills already because of it, like the awful Dragons tooth ability on Ele, why make it baby proof and easier when the purpose is to be skill based, if you dodge you dodge if not you get hit. The same with projectiles, we have reflects and blocks, and you also have other weapons and skills at your disposal that can be used. I'm referring to certain skills being changed from projectile to ground target for the sake of pvp/wvw. Not everything has to be made easy. I actually liked the shortbow but I hate how every skill 2 thru 5 is basically the same ground target with no difference in how it functions. Also, I enjoy ground target abilities a lot but ever since they changed Virtuoso unstable bladstorm to be another ground target ability when it was enjoyable for some of us was the last straw for me. It was a unique aoe projectile that turned into another basic skill.

[Calen.8945]

I'm guessing it's due to the devs balancing around WvW before anything else.

[Zaret.1450]

2 hours ago, Anthony.8056 said:

If the problem in pvp/wvw game modes are because of projectile immunity reduce those drastically in that game mode. Why does the skill have to be changed completely to accommodate those modes. They have changed many skills already because of it, like the awful Dragons tooth ability on Ele, why make it baby proof and easier when the purpose is to be skill based, if you dodge you dodge if not you get hit. The same with projectiles, we have reflects and blocks, and you also have other weapons and skills at your disposal that can be used. I'm referring to certain skills being changed from projectile to ground target for the sake of pvp/wvw. Not everything has to be made easy. I actually liked the shortbow but I hate how every skill 2 thru 5 is basically the same ground target with no difference in how it functions. Also, I enjoy ground target abilities a lot but ever since they changed Virtuoso unstable bladstorm to be another ground target ability when it was enjoyable for some of us was the last straw for me. It was a unique aoe projectile that turned into another basic skill.

mmm first shortbow on engi is new we just got its skills shown for the first time and it doesnt change any other shortbow skill, secondly i agree that they should nerf the projectile blocks/reflects , but it doesnt mean they cant add a weapon with aoe skills, meaning, ground target skills come in diferent ways, guardian staff has the 2 and 3 that are a mark and a blast , ground targeted but you still need to "aim" to where the enemy is or will be, necro staff on the other side is more of a trap , you leave the traps in the way the enemy will take or you can put them at their feet and it works just fine, i can understand you disliking virtuoso change , i didnt read much into it but i think it was a change they did for a reason, of course youre in your right to dislike it but i think it was a matter of performance (if you can clarify for me id be gratefull^^)

Now for what we have seen there are several things id like to point out of shortbow on engi, first would be that unlike necro all the skills have sinergy, meaning if you spread them wisely or stack them they will amplify and detonate each other, they also have the suport component wich seems to be the main point of it, also they have kind of a "timer" in wich they detonate alone even if untouched and you can also detonate at will, while leaving an aoe on the floor might not seem interesting nor high iq play think about the positioning of the arrows the sequence of detonating , and that being also a suport this kind of gameplay is at the very least more engaging and strategic than mantra spamming or other more simple aoe heals/buffs, they also introduced other long range weapons like pistols that will probably suffer from reflects/blocks.

Finaly we have 3 game modes in the game, and even if i for one never play pvp, i can understand that there are people that like it and if they are given a weapon that shines there, while maybe not awesome on pve or wvw , well i might not like it but i wont hate it, so far, except maybe ele pistol , i think most of the new weapons are interesting , lets just wait a couple of weeks and see .

[Anthony.8056]

38 minutes ago, Zaret.1450 said:

mmm first shortbow on engi is new we just got its skills shown for the first time and it doesnt change any other shortbow skill, secondly i agree that they should nerf the projectile blocks/reflects , but it doesnt mean they cant add a weapon with aoe skills, meaning, ground target skills come in diferent ways, guardian staff has the 2 and 3 that are a mark and a blast , ground targeted but you still need to "aim" to where the enemy is or will be, necro staff on the other side is more of a trap , you leave the traps in the way the enemy will take or you can put them at their feet and it works just fine, i can understand you disliking virtuoso change , i didnt read much into it but i think it was a change they did for a reason, of course youre in your right to dislike it but i think it was a matter of performance (if you can clarify for me id be gratefull^^)

Now for what we have seen there are several things id like to point out of shortbow on engi, first would be that unlike necro all the skills have sinergy, meaning if you spread them wisely or stack them they will amplify and detonate each other, they also have the suport component wich seems to be the main point of it, also they have kind of a "timer" in wich they detonate alone even if untouched and you can also detonate at will, while leaving an aoe on the floor might not seem interesting nor high iq play think about the positioning of the arrows the sequence of detonating , and that being also a suport this kind of gameplay is at the very least more engaging and strategic than mantra spamming or other more simple aoe heals/buffs, they also introduced other long range weapons like pistols that will probably suffer from reflects/blocks.

Finaly we have 3 game modes in the game, and even if i for one never play pvp, i can understand that there are people that like it and if they are given a weapon that shines there, while maybe not awesome on pve or wvw , well i might not like it but i wont hate it, so far, except maybe ele pistol , i think most of the new weapons are interesting , lets just wait a couple of weeks and see .

Thanks for your response, I think I'm just salty for how certain skills are changed that were fun to use for me. For example, Dust devil on Ele and Unstable bladestorm on Mesmer were both changed to ground target aoes instead of their projectile while skills like Tornado on Ele should be a ground target ability instead of its current iteration since its useless in pve. Honestly it really isn't that deep for me I'm just offering my dislike for the changes that have been made while others need changes. I do hope they rework older weapons in the future, but I'm also excited to see how the new weapons perform and what new builds can be made.

[Zekent.3652]

I don't know, but the sPvP meta is terrible whenever an AoE spam build becomes meta, like Cata, Scourge

[Sobx.1758]

I don't see what's wrong with that. And as @Shagie.7612 said, you can always use the option to snap to target.

[Firebeard.1746]

On 11/17/2023 at 4:56 AM, ShadowKatt.6740 said:

Oh, yeah, that would be a GREAT idea.....IF ANYONE KNEW ABOUT IT.

Seriously, I have been playing this game since Beta. This thread is the first time I've heard about this option. I'm legally blind and have been struggling with ground targetted abilities since the beginning of this game because NOTHING, NOWHERE, EVER told me I had an option. It wasn't til this thread popped up that I even knew I could research how to turn that on, or that there even was an option TO turn on. Anet has got to do a better job of making sure people know these things even exist.

Snap targeting still has issues. I used to use it, but sometimes it misses. It might be a cast time thing, I don't remember. it works on stationary targets for sure, but if you think the target it gonna move around, then you need to anticipate what it's doing. 

[ShadowKatt.6740]

On 11/17/2023 at 9:49 AM, Zaret.1450 said:

that option is at the same time good and not so good, if the target moves youre leaving your skills behind him when you vould leave them in their paths , also those options have been there for quite some time so...XD

4 hours ago, Firebeard.1746 said:

Snap targeting still has issues. I used to use it, but sometimes it misses. It might be a cast time thing, I don't remember. it works on stationary targets for sure, but if you think the target it gonna move around, then you need to anticipate what it's doing. 

I've been playing with the snap targetting and instant cast for ground target, and I will give you this: It is a little wonky. I'm still learning what skills do target (Like Sand Shrouds) and what skills don't target (like wells). However that being said, THIS HAS CHANGED MY LIFE. That's almost not even hyperbole. You're right. If you use an AOE on a moving target, sure you're going to waste it. But here's the thing, the moving and targeting part I struggled with. TIMING is something I can do though. I sincerely wish I would have known about this a long time ago, this is perhaps the greatest part of the game I never knew about.

[draxynnic.3719]

Generally speaking, ground targeting is done so you can actually be tactical about where to place something, rather than always having to place it centred on the enemy, on yourself, of however it might otherwise be targeted.

Dust storm and unstable bladestorm were, I think, changed so that their effect would be more consistent - instead of doing variable damage based on how long you could get the enemy to stay within the moving field of death, you could plop it down and expect to do full damage as long as the target doesn't move or otherwise mitigate the damage.

I would be inclined to agree that engineer is probably a little overboard when it comes to ground-targeted skills. But perhaps the core engineer player base likes it that way. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

[Zaret.1450]

10 hours ago, ShadowKatt.6740 said:

I've been playing with the snap targetting and instant cast for ground target, and I will give you this: It is a little wonky. I'm still learning what skills do target (Like Sand Shrouds) and what skills don't target (like wells). However that being said, THIS HAS CHANGED MY LIFE. That's almost not even hyperbole. You're right. If you use an AOE on a moving target, sure you're going to waste it. But here's the thing, the moving and targeting part I struggled with. TIMING is something I can do though. I sincerely wish I would have known about this a long time ago, this is perhaps the greatest part of the game I never knew about.

im happy then, you should look through the key configuration options too, theres plenty things there too that can be helpfull

[Polar.8634]

Maybe devs finally start fighting bots. Bots are known for mishandling ground targeting and creating ai esseys on forums.