Anet, firearms for ranger when?

[draxynnic.3719]

10 hours ago, Ehecatl.9172 said:

This is getting a bit circular. You're still making assumptions about the setting's lore based on mostly an absence of evidence concerning something that hasn't yet been added to the game. Nature magic definitely is involved in ranger weapon use, but there's no hard evidence that nature magic can't be used with a firearm. You can claim it is a logical assumption based on gameplay factors (with gameplay like weapon range not necessarily being based in lore, or did all ranger shortbows get their draw weight reduced when Anet nerfed the range?) but it's just not enough support for me to consider it a credible argument on its own.

Which isn't to say I don't consider your opinion valid. It's just as valid as mine and the pro-rifle crowd is. I just find your argument for dismissing the pro-rifle argument very weak.

It's not an assumption, though, because it's one of the cases where ArenaNet has directly told us that rangers prefer to stick with nature magic rather than technology. That's the core axiom. The rest is looking at things that ArenaNet has done with both games that could be viewed as "show, don't tell" demonstrations of why that is the case. Ranger longbow is better than, or at least not objectively worse than, anyone else's rifle, so they don't have the qualitative improvement motivation to switch. There is evidence present in ranger skills and traits that part of what makes them so good at archery is that, whether directly or through the medium of spirits, rangers have the ability to use the wind to their advantage - something that's going to be more useful with arrows that can be easily lifted and driven by favourable winds than with a bullet which, while not entirely unaffected, mostly just slams through the air through sheer velocity and density. And nature spirits in general are often suspicious if not downright hostile of technology, and while arguably technology does go into things like swords, a firearm is far more overtly a product of industry.

ArenaNet hasn't explicitly told us all of this - but they don't explicitly say a lot. They've given us the starting point, and from that starting point we can make inferences.

That said, I'm not actually anti-rifle. What I am against is people whinging that ArenaNet don't really understand ranger or are deliberately spiting ranger players when they introduce a new ranger weapon that isn't a firearm. Despite ArenaNet having said that they consider ranger to be a low-technology profession over a decade ago.

10 hours ago, Ehecatl.9172 said:

I've often thought it'd be neat to get an Engineer subclass focused around other races learning to use Sylvari plant-tech eventually. Stuff like seed pod mortars, poison spore sprayers, etc. Part of Tyria's lore that I enjoy most is how much the technology and culture spread from group to group.

Alas, it doesn't seem like we're going to get any more elite specs at this point. Probably just new weapon sets every few years.

I don't think that's necessarily the case. They never said they wouldn't introduce elite specs at all, just that they can only introduce so many and they're not going to commit to releasing a set every expansion when they're planning to release an expansion every year. We might see elite specialisations with, say, the 2025 release.

That said, I'm kinda thinking that such an elite specialisation might work better with, well, ranger. Make a ranger/engineer cross but instead of using technology, it uses sylvari-style plant manipulation as a substitute. I think it could also be cool to have something like Tyranid-style bioguns in there. We could have a Tyrian equivalent of fleshborers in the form of rangers using Apidae to shoot actual, live bees (beats having to carry a hive around since presearing with a beemastery build...).

Edited November 30, 2023 by draxynnic.3719

[Ehecatl.9172]

15 hours ago, draxynnic.3719 said:

It's not an assumption, though, because it's one of the cases where ArenaNet has directly told us that rangers prefer to stick with nature magic rather than technology. That's the core axiom. The rest is looking at things that ArenaNet has done with both games that could be viewed as "show, don't tell" demonstrations of why that is the case. 

That Anet felt rifle wasn't sufficiently nature-themed isn't an assumption. That this means the spirits of nature hate guns IS an assumption. Ranger Longbow can't just be inferior to other professions' rifles for gameplay balance reasons, so it makes for a poor argument concerning a lore point. Rangers do use nature spirits in combat, but that doesn't mean nature spirits can't or won't empower a firearm as well. Sure, a wind spirit might not work well with a bullet, but there are spirits of fire, stone, and thunder I could see meshing well with a rifle. Fire, metal, lava, bolts of lightning, etc. These are all elements of nature too. Heck, the ranger could draw on the power of the Sun and launch beams of pure heat in the form of a deadly laser and still be on point for nature magic since we know the celestial bodies are fair game due to druid.

.... That'd be kind of fun actually. An offensive take on staff where the light beam is meant for pure, non-projectile damage rather than healing.

15 hours ago, draxynnic.3719 said:

I don't think that's necessarily the case. They never said they wouldn't introduce elite specs at all, just that they can only introduce so many and they're not going to commit to releasing a set every expansion when they're planning to release an expansion every year. We might see elite specialisations with, say, the 2025 release.

That said, I'm kinda thinking that such an elite specialisation might work better with, well, ranger. Make a ranger/engineer cross but instead of using technology, it uses sylvari-style plant manipulation as a substitute. I think it could also be cool to have something like Tyranid-style bioguns in there. We could have a Tyrian equivalent of fleshborers in the form of rangers using Apidae to shoot actual, live bees (beats having to carry a hive around since presearing with a beemastery build...).

That's true. I hope we do get new elite specs eventually. I enjoy the lore they bring to the game as well as the interesting mechanics.

An elite spec like you describe would be really neat. Plant-like turrets would pair dangerously well with the ranger's already existing traps and make for a deadly zone control specialist. Or if it gets bundles we could get something like the engineer flamethrower but with swarms of bees or poison spores for a non-projectile ranged attack.

We already have some living biological weapons like the Chak Rifle, so bio-guns are actually pretty reasonable in Tyria.

[draxynnic.3719]

We actually do have indications in the game that those particularly closely aligned with nature have a distrust of technology. The Pale Tree uses the charr as an example of a direction she doesn't want the sylvari to go, the druids of Draconis Mons don't like asura magitech, the Wardens and Speakers and their opposition to jade tech, the kodan talk about the damage done to the environment by dredge, and so on. An argument could be made that these are individual circumstances and situations, but the overall opinion of beings close to nature is likely the sum total of these individual circumstances and situations. There's a track record of beings that align themselves with nature being opposed to technology, and the destruction to nature that industrialisation can bring. The exact intensity of that can vary, from 'destroy all technology' to 'let's be aware of the potential for damage and proritise harm minimisation', but you may have noted that my examples spanned the primary technology-users in the setting. Eschewing conventional guns as a symbol of that industrialisation makes sense. We're not explicitly told that nature spirits would refuse to enhance guns, but we have enough evidence that a nature versus technology tension exists to have good reason to think they might.

It's not an assumption. It's a deduction, starting from a dev statement and building on that through available evidence.

You say ranger longbow can't be inferior for game balance reasons, but that's the thing - it's not just not inferior. It is, in most ways, better. On paper, it outranges any rifle user that isn't kneeling, while maintaining full mobility apart from when they're using a skill that apparantly somehow releases a quiver worth of arrows in an area barrage with a single string pull each. In practice, ranger longbow usually has even greater range because the arrows don't actually disappear at the end of their range while bullets do. Balance doesn't stop warrior rifle from being so bad that it's only used for killshot/gunflame memes or begrudgingly when a power build NEEDS a ranged option, while ranger longbow has always been meta.

Sure, a statement from ArenaNet giving chapter and verse on exactly why rangers eschew technology beyond a vague 'they prefer to focus on being close to nature and its magic' would pin it down - but even that statement itself implies that there was a clash between technology and nature magic that isn't present with, say, mesmer magic. And Arenanet have always said that the primary source is what's in the game itself, and most of my examples are from there. Sometimes, you shouldn't need to have everything spelled out to draw a conclusion. The starting point was clearly laid out and the ingame evidence is there.

Edited December 1, 2023 by draxynnic.3719

[Yasai.3549]

4 hours ago, Ehecatl.9172 said:

Ranger Longbow can't just be inferior to other professions' rifles for gameplay balance reasons, so it makes for a poor argument concerning a lore point.

Ironically, Ranger Longbow is stronger than most Rifles in the game, kit wise. NATURE IS FIGHTING BACK.

[Artemis.8034]

44 minutes ago, draxynnic.3719 said:

We actually do have indications in the game that those particularly closely aligned with nature have a distrust of technology. The Pale Tree uses the charr as an example of a direction she doesn't want the sylvari to go, the druids of Draconis Mons don't like asura magitech, the Wardens and Speakers and their opposition to jade tech, the kodan talk about the damage done to the environment by dredge, and so on. An argument could be made that these are individual circumstances and situations, but the overall opinion of beings close to nature is likely the sum total of these individual circumstances and situations. There's a track record of beings that align themselves with nature being opposed to technology, and the destruction to nature that industrialisation can bring. The exact intensity of that can vary, from 'destroy all technology' to 'let's be aware of the potential for damage and proritise harm minimisation', but you may have noted that my examples spanned the primary technology-users in the setting. Eschewing conventional guns as a symbol of that industrialisation makes sense. We're not explicitly told that nature spirits would refuse to enhance guns, but we have enough evidence that a nature versus technology tension exists to have good reason to think they might.

It's not an assumption. It's a deduction, starting from a dev statement and building on that through available evidence.

You say ranger longbow can't be inferior for game balance reasons, but that's the thing - it's not just not inferior. It is, in most ways, better. On paper, it outranges any rifle user that isn't kneeling, while maintaining full mobility apart from when they're using a skill that apparantly somehow releases a quiver worth of arrows in an area barrage with a single string pull each. In practice, ranger longbow usually has even greater range because the arrows don't actually disappear at the end of their range while bullets do. Balance doesn't stop warrior rifle from being so bad that it's only used for killshot/gunflame memes or begrudgingly when a power build NEEDS a ranged option, while ranger longbow has always been meta.

Sure, a statement from ArenaNet giving chapter and verse on exactly why rangers eschew technology beyond a vague 'they prefer to focus on being close to nature and its magic' would pin it down - but even that statement itself implies that there was a clash between technology and nature magic that isn't present with, say, mesmer magic. And Arenanet have always said that the primary source is what's in the game itself, and most of my examples are from there. Sometimes, you shouldn't need to have everything spelled out to draw a conclusion. The starting point was clearly laid out and the ingame evidence is there.

By that logic sylvari shouldnt be necros mesmers or engineers, but for gameplay reasons they are allowed. so the whole nature theme goes out the window when you are talking about player characters 

[draxynnic.3719]

1 minute ago, Artemis.8034 said:

By that logic sylvari shouldnt be necros mesmers or engineers, but for gameplay reasons they are allowed. so the whole nature theme goes out the window when you are talking about player characters 

We've actually been told in the past that necromancer and engineer are uncommon choices by Dream sylvari (and there's an NPC discussion that suggests that warrior is too). Mesmer seems to be more common, but just because there's no fundamental incompatibility between mesmer magic and technology, does not mean that every mesmer is pro-technology.

Sylvari also aren't a hive mind - the Pale Tree can have an opinion, but she doesn't mind sylvari having other approaches to life as long as they follow the tenets. Most sylvari are close to nature (most Warden and Valiant NPCs are rangers), but they don't have to be. The Pale Tree is also on the more moderate side overall - she doesn't like it when unchecked industrialisation or industrialised warfare causes destruction, but she's fine with more responsible uses of technology.

But she is part of a trend, and the other side of that trend includes destroy-all-technology-and-those-who-use-it extremists like the Speakers.

[Artemis.8034]

3 minutes ago, draxynnic.3719 said:

We've actually been told in the past that necromancer and engineer are uncommon choices by Dream sylvari (and there's an NPC discussion that suggests that warrior is too). Mesmer seems to be more common, but just because there's no fundamental incompatibility between mesmer magic and technology, does not mean that every mesmer is pro-technology.

Sylvari also aren't a hive mind - the Pale Tree can have an opinion, but she doesn't mind sylvari having other approaches to life as long as they follow the tenets. Most sylvari are close to nature (most Warden and Valiant NPCs are rangers), but they don't have to be. The Pale Tree is also on the more moderate side overall - she doesn't like it when unchecked industrialisation or industrialised warfare causes destruction, but she's fine with more responsible uses of technology.

But she is part of a trend, and the other side of that trend includes destroy-all-technology-and-those-who-use-it extremists like the Speakers.

This is just game hypocrisy then, saying well they arent hive mind and can choose an un natural path. Then they can choose to pick up a gun, as they do when playing engineer a tech class, nothing nature there

[draxynnic.3719]

18 minutes ago, Artemis.8034 said:

This is just game hypocrisy then, saying well they arent hive mind and can choose an un natural path. Then they can choose to pick up a gun, as they do when playing engineer a tech class, nothing nature there

And a sylvari who chooses to become a gun-using profession can do so? But ranger is explicitly a heavily nature-oriented profession, and ArenaNet has explicitly linked this to them not using (conventional) firearms. Sylvari that choose to emphasise their collection to nature and become rangers will observe this as much as other races do. And this is a common choice - while the typical unnamed NPC fighter for humans, charr, and norn tends to be a warrior, for sylvari they're usually rangers.

But there is no stigma attached to sylvari who choose not to develop that connection and pursue other interests entirely, including technology, as long as they're not ruining the environment in the process. All things have a right to grow, after all. Such sylvari, however, do not rely on a close bond with nature to the degree that rangers do.

[Nuldric.1239]

7 hours ago, Ehecatl.9172 said:

Sure, a wind spirit might not work well with a bullet, but there are spirits of fire, stone, and thunder I could see meshing well with a rifle. Fire, metal, lava, bolts of lightning, etc. These are all elements of nature too.

ehm... so, elementalist? 

7 hours ago, Ehecatl.9172 said:

Heck, the ranger could draw on the power of the Sun and launch beams of pure heat in the form of a deadly laser

ehm... so, holosmith? 

dude, just play another class profession when you don't like ranger's naturalism

Edited December 1, 2023 by Nuldric.1239

[Ashen.2907]

On 11/30/2023 at 12:30 AM, draxynnic.3719 said:

ArenaNet has directly told us that rangers prefer to stick with nature magic rather than technology

Then ANet is being inconsistenr because there is more sophisticated technology involved in producing a steel greatsword than in a black powder musket.

[Nuldric.1239]

3 minutes ago, Ashen.2907 said:

Then ANet is being inconsistenr because there is more sophisticated technology involved in producing a steel greatsword than in a black powder musket.

From educated and real world pov yes. But it's just a game and from simplistic pov it's "sharp metal stick" vs "industry produced and precisely crafted mechanism". And the latter seems more unnatural.

[Ashen.2907]

1 minute ago, Nuldric.1239 said:

From educated and real world pov yes. But it's just a game and from simplistic pov it's "sharp metal stick" vs "industry produced and precisely crafted mechanism". And the latter seems more unnatural.

An industry produced and precisely crafted sharp stick using more metal, and requiring more intrusion into or even desecration of the natural world. 

Your description of the two isnt so much simplistic as just inaccurate. Simplistic does not mean false.

 

[Nuldric.1239]

Just now, Ashen.2907 said:

An industry produced and precisely crafted sharp stick using more metal, and requiring more intrusion into or even desecration of the natural world. 

Your description of the two isnt so much simplistic as just inaccurate. Simplistic does not mean false.

I didn't say you are wrong, you are right in this fact. But view it as a 6yo who know nothing about steel crafting, blacksmithing and engineering. Then it's just a "sharp metal stick". Don't expect game to be accurate in these things. Most people know nothing about such things so expect them to view it as this 6yo. And it's even irrelevant, it's a game, not real world simulator. 

[xellink.7568]

On 11/25/2023 at 4:52 AM, Shuzuru.3651 said:

The only thing I agree there is pistol guard, as I don't really understand the theme. 

For the rest, sword necro is logical, sword is the typical weapon of the dark knight fantasy, which is using your own life to unleash powerful attacks, life sacrifice always has been a theme of the necro, so it fit pretty well. 

Pistol necro is basically the mad scientist, the one that will do morbid experiments, it also fit the necro as light classes are scholars, so potential scientific, since core, we had Oola mixing golemancy (so technology) and necromancy. So it fit too. 

Dual Pistol Guardian: Rosette from Chrono Crusade.

[Ehecatl.9172]

17 hours ago, draxynnic.3719 said:

It's not an assumption. It's a deduction, starting from a dev statement and building on that through available evidence.

A deduction is still not a fact, though. That is my point. You've built up a fine theory here but it's still not confirmed lore.

I'm simply not convinced by your evidence. Half of it is related to gameplay in terms of class and weapon balance and half is nature spirits being opposed to mass industrialization that can actively harm the environment, which a simple rifle is not.

It's best to just agree to disagree and move on. I do understand the reasoning behind your stance, it just doesn't persuade me away from mine.

14 hours ago, Nuldric.1239 said:

ehm... so, elementalist? 

ehm... so, holosmith? 

dude, just play another class profession when you don't like ranger's naturalism

You uh... Kind of missed the entire point of all my posts in this thread.

From my point of view rifle isn't anti-naturalism.

Edited December 1, 2023 by Ehecatl.9172

[draxynnic.3719]

16 hours ago, Ashen.2907 said:

Then ANet is being inconsistenr because there is more sophisticated technology involved in producing a steel greatsword than in a black powder musket.

There are a number of distinctions here. First, it kinda depends on the version of the musket in question. You need decent metallurgy in the barrel, and once you get past matchlocks you start getting increasingly intricate triggering mechanisms. Furthermore, most of the weapons we see in-game aren't simple muzzle-loading muskets. The weapon class is rifles, and rifling a barrel adds to the complexity of manufacture. At least some skins are pretty clearly revolving or other repeating rifles. Let's not also forget that in Central Tyria at least, guns are most associated with and were invented by the charr, who have a roughly WW1 level of technology.

There are also other factors. A greatsword is, fundamentally, an improvement on the same principles you might see in a two-handed macuahuitl or a giant jawbone reinforced with magic, while a conventional firearm is something fundamentally new. A sword is also something that you can acquire once and it can potentially serve for years - a firearm requires constant replenishment of powder and shot, which can lead to reliance on an industrial supply chain if you don't have the right resources to make your own.

3 hours ago, Ehecatl.9172 said:

A deduction is still not a fact, though. That is my point. You've built up a fine theory here but it's still not confirmed lore.

I'm simply not convinced by your evidence. Half of it is related to gameplay in terms of class and weapon balance and half is nature spirits being opposed to mass industrialization that can actively harm the environment, which a simple rifle is not.

It's best to just agree to disagree and move on. I do understand the reasoning behind your stance, it just doesn't persuade me away from mine.

You uh... Kind of missed the entire point of all my posts in this thread.

From my point of view rifle isn't anti-naturalism.

It's fact that ArenaNet has said that rangers eschew rifle to be closer to nature. There's some wriggle room to claim that's not QUITE explicit Word of God that conventional rifles are anti-naturalism in Tyria, but it's pretty darn close. Close enough that I'd consider it beyond reasonable doubt.

The rest is additional supporting evidence, possible in-world explanation of why it's the case, and rebuffal of the claim that repeating rifles being objectively better in real life means they must also be objectively better in the magical setting of Tyria (you can dismiss it as 'balance', but the ingame evidence is that bows are absolutely not inferior). But ultimately, ArenaNet has given the core reason. Rangers don't use conventional rifles because it does, somehow, clash with being close to nature. You might dismiss my explanation as 'just a theory' (which to me is ironic, coming from a science-trained background), but at the bottom line, rangers disliking conventional firearms because of some incompatibility with nature magic has been explicitly stated by ArenaNet. My reasoned hypothesis is simply an explanation of why there might be an incompatibility.

Again, though, I do think there is certainly potential for something that isn't a conventional rifle but can use rifle skins, especially some of the weirder ones like chak and the plant-based skins.

[Sansar.1302]

Ranger should have goten a firearm years ago

 

Edited December 2, 2023 by Sansar.1302

[Ehecatl.9172]

20 hours ago, draxynnic.3719 said:

It's fact that ArenaNet has said that rangers eschew rifle to be closer to nature. There's some wriggle room to claim that's not QUITE explicit Word of God that conventional rifles are anti-naturalism in Tyria, but it's pretty darn close. Close enough that I'd consider it beyond reasonable doubt.

Again, though, I do think there is certainly potential for something that isn't a conventional rifle but can use rifle skins, especially some of the weirder ones like chak and the plant-based skins.

 

Well, like I said. Let's agree to disagree on that point. I think the existence of all those plant rifles in the world is enough evidence that nature magic can be used in conjunction with rifles, even if Anet doesn't see rifle as a thematically appropriate weapon (though a speargun is completely acceptable despite being just as, if not more, technologically sophisticated).

Though now that I even remember the speargun exists I am curious how that fits into your hypothesis.  Legitimately curious, mind you. I'm not using this as an "Aha!" thing.

I also wouldn't be surprised that if we do ever get rifle it does end up like what you describe. Honestly, it'd probably lead to a more interesting weapon than if they just used a standard gunpowder weapon. It offers a wider range of more interesting weapon skills, as rifles tend to be very one-dimensional gameplay-wise.

[draxynnic.3719]

15 hours ago, Ehecatl.9172 said:

 

Well, like I said. Let's agree to disagree on that point. I think the existence of all those plant rifles in the world is enough evidence that nature magic can be used in conjunction with rifles, even if Anet doesn't see rifle as a thematically appropriate weapon (though a speargun is completely acceptable despite being just as, if not more, technologically sophisticated).

Though now that I even remember the speargun exists I am curious how that fits into your hypothesis.  Legitimately curious, mind you. I'm not using this as an "Aha!" thing.

I also wouldn't be surprised that if we do ever get rifle it does end up like what you describe. Honestly, it'd probably lead to a more interesting weapon than if they just used a standard gunpowder weapon. It offers a wider range of more interesting weapon skills, as rifles tend to be very one-dimensional gameplay-wise.

I think the answer is that many spearguns are essentially an underwater-optimised crossbow. At least some of the skins are exactly that. The alternative propulsion mechanism is pneumatic, which is apparently typically pressurised by hand: that's likely a bit more complex in operation, but it does still avoid the possibility of being reliant on civilisation for powder and shot.

The 'portable plant mortar/Tyranid bioweapon expy' concept is, to be honest, one that I like more and more the more I think about it (now, there's an awkward sentence construction). It fixes the theme issue, and it also fixes one of the other issues that crops up when rifle gets pushed - that the proposal is often either longbow 2.0, or claiming that rifle can somehow be a WvW-optimised projectile-less ranged weapon without much justification for how rifle could be that (shotgun-style is often raised, but there was a weapon with a 600 range shotgun-like auto once, it was removed for the sake of WvW). Biogun, however, immediately generates some possibilities for a full AoE weapon. Spray iboga toxins over your enemies for poison and confusion. Shoot a seed into the ground that rapidly grows into a prickleberry plant that pulses cripple and bleeding. There's a huge range of possible things that could be done that would be undoubtably and uniquely ranger.

[Sansar.1302]

2 hours ago, draxynnic.3719 said:

I think the answer is that many spearguns are essentially an underwater-optimised crossbow. At least some of the skins are exactly that. The alternative propulsion mechanism is pneumatic, which is apparently typically pressurised by hand: that's likely a bit more complex in operation, but it does still avoid the possibility of being reliant on civilisation for powder and shot.

The 'portable plant mortar/Tyranid bioweapon expy' concept is, to be honest, one that I like more and more the more I think about it (now, there's an awkward sentence construction). It fixes the theme issue, and it also fixes one of the other issues that crops up when rifle gets pushed - that the proposal is often either longbow 2.0, or claiming that rifle can somehow be a WvW-optimised projectile-less ranged weapon without much justification for how rifle could be that (shotgun-style is often raised, but there was a weapon with a 600 range shotgun-like auto once, it was removed for the sake of WvW). Biogun, however, immediately generates some possibilities for a full AoE weapon. Spray iboga toxins over your enemies for poison and confusion. Shoot a seed into the ground that rapidly grows into a prickleberry plant that pulses cripple and bleeding. There's a huge range of possible things that could be done that would be undoubtably and uniquely ranger.

No No no plz not anything like that, bio gun stuff really don't fit at all. 

[Ehecatl.9172]

14 hours ago, draxynnic.3719 said:

I think the answer is that many spearguns are essentially an underwater-optimised crossbow. At least some of the skins are exactly that. The alternative propulsion mechanism is pneumatic, which is apparently typically pressurised by hand: that's likely a bit more complex in operation, but it does still avoid the possibility of being reliant on civilisation for powder and shot.

You'd be pretty hard-pressed to be able to replace the latex rubber bands that power the crossbow-like variant in nature, though that's as good an explanation as any. Less about how technologically sophisticated the tool is and more about whether it's hand-made.

14 hours ago, draxynnic.3719 said:

The 'portable plant mortar/Tyranid bioweapon expy' concept is, to be honest, one that I like more and more the more I think about it (now, there's an awkward sentence construction). It fixes the theme issue, and it also fixes one of the other issues that crops up when rifle gets pushed - that the proposal is often either longbow 2.0, or claiming that rifle can somehow be a WvW-optimised projectile-less ranged weapon without much justification for how rifle could be that (shotgun-style is often raised, but there was a weapon with a 600 range shotgun-like auto once, it was removed for the sake of WvW). Biogun, however, immediately generates some possibilities for a full AoE weapon. Spray iboga toxins over your enemies for poison and confusion. Shoot a seed into the ground that rapidly grows into a prickleberry plant that pulses cripple and bleeding. There's a huge range of possible things that could be done that would be undoubtably and uniquely ranger.

It'd make for a good 1,200 range condi weapon for sure. Spore bombs, toxin spray, maybe a thorny buttstroke for when the enemy gets too close. Or you could have a skill that fires a vine to ensnare and drag enemies to you like a tethered speargun but on land. I imagine the devs would have a lot of fun designing a weapon like that.

[draxynnic.3719]

22 hours ago, Ehecatl.9172 said:

You'd be pretty hard-pressed to be able to replace the latex rubber bands that power the crossbow-like variant in nature, though that's as good an explanation as any. Less about how technologically sophisticated the tool is and more about whether it's hand-made.

Depends on whether there are rubber plants nearby. The Aztecs supposedly had rubber bands (although probably not nearly as strong as modern ones) - medieval Europe mostly didn't use rubber because they didn't have it. A similar principle might also work with conventional crossbows, it's just that using rubber is more efficient today. Which could be a similar situation to swords, maces, etc: using more advanced materials is still more like an advanced crossbow than as something new using explosive chemical propellant. Plus, once you have a speargun, you can probably fashion your own ammunition.

22 hours ago, Ehecatl.9172 said:

It'd make for a good 1,200 range condi weapon for sure. Spore bombs, toxin spray, maybe a thorny buttstroke for when the enemy gets too close. Or you could have a skill that fires a vine to ensnare and drag enemies to you like a tethered speargun but on land. I imagine the devs would have a lot of fun designing a weapon like that.

Could draw some ideas from Mordrem too. Mark someone with a glob of honey or sticky nectar so they get a swarm of bees chasing them around. There's a lot of concept space there to draw from.

[frazazel.7501]

I would love to see offhand pistol as a midrange power skirmish weapon (pairs with ranger axe or sword). 4 is a stun + smoke field, and 5 is a projectile finisher that gives does bonus damage to movement-impaired enemies + dodge backwards.

[Iustitian.9176]

I hope never.

a) Rangers and firearms are like nature and tech - total opposites. 

b) There are enough hunter-like rifle using professions. 

c) There is absolutely no use case for another long range power weapon for rangers!