Anet, firearms for ranger when?

[Sansar.1302]

Did not like staff a all, main hand dagger where ok, hammer where a big failure in my eyes and mace (main hand) seams like a 100% useless weapon.

[Ehecatl.9172]

2 hours ago, draxynnic.3719 said:

A couple of distinctions here:

The first is that statements by AreneNet established that the devs are in the first category. Those statements were somewhere around the time of GW2's initial release, so they may well have changed since then. But we do have an indication of what they thought at least at some point.

The second is that Tyria isn't the real world, and comparisons between effectiveness of bows and rifles that apply in the real world might not apply in Tyria.

I'm personally open to it with the right theme, but I feel that there are some people who seem to take it as a personal betrayal when ranger gets anything else.

The devs' thoughts are obviously valid as well, but shouldn't be used to dissuade people from making their own thoughts on the matter clear. We're just talking on a forum at the end of the day.

Your second point is mostly supposition. There's no actual lore that says firearms can't be used in conjunction with nature magic, so it's a pretty weak argument against using real-world history for examples where rifles were used by people who were wilderness explorers, survivalists, and nature preservationists. Heck, the fact there are several rifle skins where the rifle is outright made of living plant matter (Modrem Rifle, Maguuma Rifle, Bioluminescent Rifle, Bloodroot Rifle, Dreamthistle Rifle, Grinning Gourd Rifle, Nightmare Rifle, Verdant Rifle, Summer Light Rife, Warden Rifle) strongly suggests nature magic gels with firearms just fine.

Without lore to the contrary, it is entirely reasonable for people to look to real-world history for examples and inspiration for their ranger and a lot of people just don't see the rifle as anathema to the natural world the way others do.

As for the "personal betrayal" thing, I think that comes down to what the new weapons have been. I don't recall a lot of pushback against staff thematically. At the very least I was pretty excited to be getting a weapon that focused more on the magical side of the class rather than martial. I think most of the pushback has been against hammers and maces, neither of which are weapons you'd normally use in a survivalist situation. Like... At all. They are very specific weapons of war that are primarily for hurting people in plate armor, something you're not likely to need to do if you're ranging the wilderness. So I totally get the feeling that Anet is doing backflips to avoid what to a lot of people is the most thematically appropriate weapon left.

That said, skins fix all issues. I absolutely adore my Maguuma Hammer on my Charr druid and thankfully there are a few mace skins that can be presented as clubs, which I've noted before in other threads.

At the same time though, I wouldn't mind giving my Sylvari ranger Bloodroot or Bioluminescent Rifle so I can be more like Laranthir and his Pale Reavers.

[draxynnic.3719]

8 hours ago, Ehecatl.9172 said:

The devs' thoughts are obviously valid as well, but shouldn't be used to dissuade people from making their own thoughts on the matter clear. We're just talking on a forum at the end of the day.

Sure, people can express their preferences, but there are people - now including you! - who've been insisting that firearms are the obvious option that Arenanet is avoiding out of pure obstinacy. Except it's not. This is one reason.

8 hours ago, Ehecatl.9172 said:

Your second point is mostly supposition. There's no actual lore that says firearms can't be used in conjunction with nature magic, so it's a pretty weak argument against using real-world history for examples where rifles were used by people who were wilderness explorers, survivalists, and nature preservationists. Heck, the fact there are several rifle skins where the rifle is outright made of living plant matter (Modrem Rifle, Maguuma Rifle, Bioluminescent Rifle, Bloodroot Rifle, Dreamthistle Rifle, Grinning Gourd Rifle, Nightmare Rifle, Verdant Rifle, Summer Light Rife, Warden Rifle) strongly suggests nature magic gels with firearms just fine.

Without lore to the contrary, it is entirely reasonable for people to look to real-world history for examples and inspiration for their ranger and a lot of people just don't see the rifle as anathema to the natural world the way others do.

It's backed by in-game experience. Ranger longbow is one of the best long-range power weapons in the game, possibly the best. We also have ArenaNet's statements above reinforcing the possibility that rangers just can't nature magic up a rifle as strongly as a bow. In a magical world such as Tyria, your own arguments are just as much of a supposition - in the context of GW2, rifles are not necessarily superior to bows.

8 hours ago, Ehecatl.9172 said:

As for the "personal betrayal" thing, I think that comes down to what the new weapons have been. I don't recall a lot of pushback against staff thematically. At the very least I was pretty excited to be getting a weapon that focused more on the magical side of the class rather than martial. I think most of the pushback has been against hammers and maces, neither of which are weapons you'd normally use in a survivalist situation. Like... At all. They are very specific weapons of war that are primarily for hurting people in plate armor, something you're not likely to need to do if you're ranging the wilderness. So I totally get the feeling that Anet is doing backflips to avoid what to a lot of people is the most thematically appropriate weapon left.

That said, skins fix all issues. I absolutely adore my Maguuma Hammer on my Charr druid and thankfully there are a few mace skins that can be presented as clubs, which I've noted before in other threads.

At the same time though, I wouldn't mind giving my Sylvari ranger Bloodroot or Bioluminescent Rifle so I can be more like Laranthir and his Pale Reavers.

Hammer feels like it was a choice to couple with Untamed being a melee-oriented elite spec. They could have gone with something else, but they went with the bunny thumper option.

Mace, as I said, seems to be a case of picking out some of the things that rangers were said to be lacking. It's also far less specialised for use against plate armour than people claim, since the 'mace' category includes every one-handed blunt or semi-blunt weapon. Including a variety of weapons made from natural materials.

[RDBuck.6098]

Then the longbow need some changes like hunter shot needs cause bleeding and shoot three arrows and the longbow damage should go up 1 to 2% I really don't care about the mace but we will see. 

[Levetty.1279]

Those Mace skills were awful, I'm on board the Rifle train now.

[Axelteas.7192]

On 11/24/2023 at 6:34 AM, DanAlcedo.3281 said:

Here we go again.... 

1.The word ranger does not come from being ranged. 

2.Gw2's ranger is about being nature themed and rifles go against said theme. 

3. What's the difference between rifle and Longbow? Both would be just long range pew pew. 

4. Long range pew pew is bad for pve as you need to stack anyway and more long range pew pew is bad for pvp/wvw as it encourages toxic gameplay. 

5. How about an actual usefull weapon like a main hand support weapon for Druid instead of a weapon that's only good for looking good in screenshots? 

6. Don't add me. I won't answer. This post will be put into the ranger sub forum anyway and after 1000000 discussion about it, I don't care anymore. 

2.Gw2's ranger is about being nature themed and rifles go against said theme. 

... well a huntsman likes nature, likes the forest and likes to hunt animals... with a RIFLE 

and no, a warrior with a rifle is not a huntsman

[Artemis.8034]

6 hours ago, Levetty.1279 said:

Those Mace skills were awful, I'm on board the Rifle train now.

Weren't they . Only one that will use mace is heal druid, maybe a bunker build but the ramp up is so long on some of the abilities im like the enemy will have moved to the next zone by the time you are ready to do anything lol

[Mell.4873]

On 11/25/2023 at 8:02 AM, Levetty.1279 said:

They could literally just make the rifles shoot seeds that land and do aoe effects.

Ranged AoE is the main thing Ranger is missing now so it's either Rifle or Scepter and Focus.

Longbow Barrage does that job fine. It even triggers the Firework Relic. 

I guess we are missing ranged Condition aoe but Rifle is not normally a condition weapon. 

[Eekasqueak.7850]

I wouldn't mind a condi rifle but I dunno if Ranger's the best fit.

[Mell.4873]

Over all the main missing weapon is a main-hand/off-hand support weapon. 

We already had Staff but Rangers have no shield or defensive off-hand. This Mace should suffice. 

It also looks like a nice replacement for Sword after its change. 

[Fueki.4753]

The Maces looks fun to me. Along with Guardian, Ranger is the overall winner for me.

[Ehecatl.9172]

22 hours ago, draxynnic.3719 said:

Sure, people can express their preferences, but there are people - now including you! - who've been insisting that firearms are the obvious option that Arenanet is avoiding out of pure obstinacy. Except it's not. This is one reason.

I am explaining why people feel the way they feel. I've not made any judgment on Anet for their weapon choices one way or another as I've personally been pretty content with what we've gotten.

22 hours ago, draxynnic.3719 said:

It's backed by in-game experience. Ranger longbow is one of the best long-range power weapons in the game, possibly the best. We also have ArenaNet's statements above reinforcing the possibility that rangers just can't nature magic up a rifle as strongly as a bow. In a magical world such as Tyria, your own arguments are just as much of a supposition - in the context of GW2, rifles are not necessarily superior to bows.

This is still a non-argument, though. You're saying that because Tyria might have some unknown lore mechanic we've not yet explicitly seen that people can't point to facts from real life to justify their personal views on subjects of theme.

It's also ignoring evidence to the contrary, like the several explicitly magical plant rifles already in the game or the fact Sylvari can create rifles using their innate connection to nature magic the same way they make all their gear.

Also as an aside, I didn't call rifles superior to bows for hunting. I said both have pros and cons and that it is largely a matter of preference. Rifles are better as a weapon of war 100%, but we're not discussing war. We're discussing survivalists in the woods where the needs of the wielder are very different.

22 hours ago, draxynnic.3719 said:

Hammer feels like it was a choice to couple with Untamed being a melee-oriented elite spec. They could have gone with something else, but they went with the bunny thumper option.

Mace, as I said, seems to be a case of picking out some of the things that rangers were said to be lacking. It's also far less specialised for use against plate armour than people claim, since the 'mace' category includes every one-handed blunt or semi-blunt weapon. Including a variety of weapons made from natural materials.

Hammer and Untamed being conceptualized as a melee playstyle is definitely why they chose Hammer, but I'm sure most people can see why it was regarded as an unusual choice for a nature survivalist class. In the end, I'm happy with what we got as the hammer is actually quite fun to use.

And yes, I've noted that clubs are considered maces in the game. Still, a person might not know that off the top of their head, and seeing the word mace conjures a fairly specific mental image.

Personally, if we were going to get a support weapon I would've gone scepter. But that's just me. I'm still looking forward to trying out maces.

[Beddo.1907]

Even assuming rifle (and pistols while we are at it) is on theme, there are limitations of what Ranger can do with a rifle. Currently we have power and condi projectile dps and heal range weapons, so preferably we will need a skillset that fills a new role. The only role we lack is ranged non-projectile weapon (with AoE), however rifle is projectile based when it's used as long range.

Now the issue is the fact that Ranger's themes are pets and nature, which are not capable of making range rifle non-projectile, like Mesmer's portals and illusions. That means it would fill an already filled weapon role, which doesn't seem like what Anet wants when adding more weapons. 

I'm all in for adding firearms to ranger, but only if they add some new options to Ranger.

[draxynnic.3719]

5 hours ago, Mell.4873 said:

Longbow Barrage does that job fine. It even triggers the Firework Relic. 

I guess we are missing ranged Condition aoe but Rifle is not normally a condition weapon. 

"Not normally" could very easily be made into an exception, though. Rifle isn't normally support either, and it would require far less magic than mesmer rifle for a rifle to be condition-oriented.

3 hours ago, Ehecatl.9172 said:

This is still a non-argument, though. You're saying that because Tyria might have some unknown lore mechanic we've not yet explicitly seen that people can't point to facts from real life to justify their personal views on subjects of theme.

We've had statements from ArenaNet themselves that rangers prefer to remain closer to nature and nature magic than adopting technology. We have plenty of evidence in ranger skills themselves that nature magic and spirits are invoked in their weapon skill use (or are those ghostly bears, eagles, snakes and so in that appear with certain ranger weapon skills purely in the ranger's head?). Ranger longbow is longer ranged than any rifle in the game except a kneeling deadeye, and they can maintain their mobility and fire on the move to do so. We have gameplay experience that ranger longbow is superior to rifles used by other professions, and a handy explanation as to why.

People can point to facts from real life, but they can't consider them to be a trump card that automatically wins their point when we're not talking about real life. We're talking about a fantasy setting where a ranger's performance with bows is likely at least partially coming from invoking spirits or other manifestations of a close bond with nature that specifically enhance arrows, and which might well refuse to work for anything technological.

3 hours ago, Ehecatl.9172 said:

It's also ignoring evidence to the contrary, like the several explicitly magical plant rifles already in the game or the fact Sylvari can create rifles using their innate connection to nature magic the same way they make all their gear.

And yet we don't see sylvari rangers using rifles, do we? Circular argument, I know (albeit not completely, since there are examples of nonstandard weapon use), but just because sylvari are capable of shaping a plant into a form that can be used as a firearm doesn't mean that all rifles are suddenly kosher as far as nature spirits are concerned. It's also worth noting that, apart from the Pale Reavers and Scarlet - both of which can be considered at least somewhat atypical - you don't see a lot of firearms among the sylvari. Wardens are mostly rangers using release ranger weapons, or earth elementalists. Nightmare court have a wide range of variants (enemy factions usually are more diverse than allied ones), but off the top of my head I don't recall any firearms. They're included in the sets for completeness, but are they common? And would nature spirits actually accept them, or is it just that the plants sylvari typically work with don't ask why they're being asked to form into a specific shape? And would a ranger get as much aid from calling on the winds to assist a bullet as they would for an arrow, even if the winds deigned to respond to begin with?

Now, it's plausible that the sylvari could come up with some rifle-shaped cousin to mortar plants that nature spirits would be entirely fine with... but the end result of that would probably be very different to what the "guns for ranger NOW!" crowd would probably be envisioning (come to think on it, in fact, it could be quite interesting). But that's entirely hypothetical. We don't see it, and even if does happen, it might not be something that's spread to all races.

Ultimately, the argument often presented that rifle should be an obvious choice is incredibly flawed. Out of game, ArenaNet has given us a reason. In-game, we have evidence for it. Rangers can call upon the winds to assist their arrows (although unfortunately, a lot of what rangers could do with arrows in GW1 were lost in transition), which would likely be less effective with a rifle. The ingame results speak for themselves. We can consider lore reasons for them to not use rifles, and we can also cite the in-game reason why rifles are not a priority - the 'default' treatment for rifles, especially rifles that have not been augmented by engineer technological craziness, is a long-ranged power weapon that's primarily useful against a single target but which might have some area-of-effect capability, typically in the form of piercing attacks. Ranger longbow is already a long-ranged (hard to get further, especially since in practice the arrows can reach further than advertised) power weapon that, to not put a fine point on it, does rifle's typical job better than rifle does. There's just no need for it.

I could get around a portable seed mortar and biochemical projector, though, as long as it doesn't fall into the engineer trap of the entire bar being ground-targeted. 

[TheLadyOfTheRings.9148]

One day I want all weapons unlocked for all professions. I think we might get there. I would love to get either rifle or shield next.

[kharmin.7683]

+1 for OH shield.

[Mell.4873]

3 hours ago, draxynnic.3719 said:

"Not normally" could very easily be made into an exception, though. Rifle isn't normally support either, and it would require far less magic than mesmer rifle for a rifle to be condition-oriented.

Maybe it could shoot spores a bit like Deadeye Marks. Each stack gives them more conditions until finally you consume them for maybe a big AoE.

[Scynte.1340]

Some sarcastic suggestions for rifle specifically: 

Auto attack: literal pea shooter burst of shots

Weapon skills, no particular order: 

Spray honey or pheromones on enemies and sic bugs on them. 

Kneel and aim point blank seed shots to the ground in front of you to grow vines in a concentrated spot. More damage and different range from staff vine skill. 

Close-range rafflesia flower bayonet stab. CC the enemy target with stank or giant petals. 

Vine whip for a pull.

 

I'd argue that if they have to give rifle, they should make it nature themed. Then, there won't be as many of these threads anymore. This is the last weapon I'd want them to add, so add other weapons first. 

[Bealis.6023]

It is kinda funny that most ppl who are against rifle/pistol ranger always find a deeply gameplay-wise and thematical reasons why it is a bad thing, while when other proffesions have them it is cherry.😅

[draxynnic.3719]

9 hours ago, Bealis.6023 said:

It is kinda funny that most ppl who are against rifle/pistol ranger always find a deeply gameplay-wise and thematical reasons why it is a bad thing, while when other proffesions have them it is cherry.😅

Because most people who want ranger rifle don't offer much reasoning beyond 'guns are cool', and then they behave like Arenanet is committing an unforgivable sin when they do something else. The obvious design for rifle would be pretty close to being a longbow clone, while other weapons have generally been better at filling roles that weren't being catered to before. For rifle to really be compelling it needs to do something that isn't Longbow 2.0.

Which is why I unironically like the 'sylvari portable mortar plant' thought - there are ways that could be made into an interesting AoE condition and control weapon.

[Lazze.9870]

On 11/26/2023 at 1:00 PM, Ehecatl.9172 said:

And in my mind, it is at least more thematically appropriate than the greatsword, even though I love the greatsword and use it often.

It is most definetely not more thematically appropriate than the greatsword, not in the context of this game or the ranger archtype in general. It's clearly meant to be a claymore type sword, not some ridiculous colossal sword. Some of the skins in this game may distort that idea, though.

And I know this is beside the point, but a rifle is also not as much needed as the greatsword turned out to be. Another projectile weapon is the last thing this class needs.

Edited November 29, 2023 by Lazze.9870

[Bealis.6023]

12 hours ago, draxynnic.3719 said:

Because most people who want ranger rifle don't offer much reasoning beyond 'guns are cool', and then they behave like Arenanet is committing an unforgivable sin when they do something else. The obvious design for rifle would be pretty close to being a longbow clone, while other weapons have generally been better at filling roles that weren't being catered to before. For rifle to really be compelling it needs to do something that isn't Longbow 2.0.

Which is why I unironically like the 'sylvari portable mortar plant' thought - there are ways that could be made into an interesting AoE condition and control weapon.

That is fair, I like the idea of a mortar type weapon👍, sylvari allready use spiky fruits for defense, norn rangers  could barb nets for hunting, or hylek alchemical grenades and such for AoE and control. To get back to my thoughts on previous post, all these ideas would still make more sense than lets say new rifle for mesmer, who shoots illusion magic...out of a barell? Imagine Kasmeer picking up a charzooka or something and shooting her clones to distract enemies. I actually dont have a problem with that, but if these things could exist, new projectile weapon for ranger would seem grounded in comparison. 🙂 So it really seems it boils down to the devs intentions above anything else.

[Fueki.4753]

6 minutes ago, Bealis.6023 said:

I actually dont have a problem with that, but if these things could exist, new projectile weapon for ranger would seem grounded in comparison.

Watch them make it literally grounded, with Ranger's Rifle having four ground-targetted cooldowns like Necromancer's Staff and Engineer's Shortbow.

[Ehecatl.9172]

On 11/28/2023 at 8:18 AM, draxynnic.3719 said:

We've had statements from ArenaNet themselves that rangers prefer to remain closer to nature and nature magic than adopting technology. We have plenty of evidence in ranger skills themselves that nature magic and spirits are invoked in their weapon skill use (or are those ghostly bears, eagles, snakes and so in that appear with certain ranger weapon skills purely in the ranger's head?). Ranger longbow is longer ranged than any rifle in the game except a kneeling deadeye, and they can maintain their mobility and fire on the move to do so. We have gameplay experience that ranger longbow is superior to rifles used by other professions, and a handy explanation as to why.

People can point to facts from real life, but they can't consider them to be a trump card that automatically wins their point when we're not talking about real life. We're talking about a fantasy setting where a ranger's performance with bows is likely at least partially coming from invoking spirits or other manifestations of a close bond with nature that specifically enhance arrows, and which might well refuse to work for anything technological.

This is getting a bit circular. You're still making assumptions about the setting's lore based on mostly an absence of evidence concerning something that hasn't yet been added to the game. Nature magic definitely is involved in ranger weapon use, but there's no hard evidence that nature magic can't be used with a firearm. You can claim it is a logical assumption based on gameplay factors (with gameplay like weapon range not necessarily being based in lore, or did all ranger shortbows get their draw weight reduced when Anet nerfed the range?) but it's just not enough support for me to consider it a credible argument on its own.

Which isn't to say I don't consider your opinion valid. It's just as valid as mine and the pro-rifle crowd is. I just find your argument for dismissing the pro-rifle argument very weak.

On 11/28/2023 at 8:18 AM, draxynnic.3719 said:

I could get around a portable seed mortar and biochemical projector, though, as long as it doesn't fall into the engineer trap of the entire bar being ground-targeted. 

I've often thought it'd be neat to get an Engineer subclass focused around other races learning to use Sylvari plant-tech eventually. Stuff like seed pod mortars, poison spore sprayers, etc. Part of Tyria's lore that I enjoy most is how much the technology and culture spread from group to group.

Alas, it doesn't seem like we're going to get any more elite specs at this point. Probably just new weapon sets every few years.

[Yasai.3549]

On 11/24/2023 at 12:04 PM, Artemis.8034 said:

Everybody is getting pistols and rifle even those than thematically make no sense.

What doesn't make sense is people using theme as a reason for their demands. 
Just say you want Rifles for Rangers, no one is gonna hate you for it. At this point it's an eventuality because apparently dual wielding maracas is possible for Ranger too, as much as dual wielding pistols are possible for Guardian. 

When Anet decides that you should have Rifle, you will get Rifle. The end. 
Now if you actually get a Rifle that shoots bullets is another thing. Inb4 you use a Rifle as a melee weapon because bullets bad for nature.
 

Edited November 30, 2023 by Yasai.3549