Next Vindicator nerf

[Buran.3796]

8 hours ago, UncreativeGreen.2019 said:

I mean they just got rid of our vigor being 25% stronger AND didnt revert the "only when vindi is equipped" restriction to Enduring recovery in retrib.... so yeah, just usual Anet things.  

   I want to clarify one thing: I don't care about the change in PvP since in PvP vigor lasted 1 second so the 25% efectiveness increase was irrelevant, and currently I'm just running 1-0-1 in Vindi traitline. I don't think the change affects Vindi in PvP since Rev was already near the bottom so you can't do much to make it worse, arguably.

   My gripes are mainly about how the changes affect the WvW builds. PvE is less important since you have way more margin for mistakes there, so less boons have impact but aren't as critical as in player vs player environment (again: in PvP doesn't matter since the three traits were already a joke). But in WvW very small changes can move builds from being meta to the discard bin.

[Warscythes.9307]

Change is pretty great in PvE, not sure what the crying is about. Haven't tried in PvP/WvW yet. This is a good change in the right direction to make energy meld and jump more flavorful.

Like seriously guys have you ever tried to play with it or did you just read the patch notes and said this is awful? What is so "clunky" or "difficult" about this button compared to literally any other button? It doesn't have forced movement, it doesn't lock you in animation for eternity, it doesn't require some wonky targetting. Is it just because is on F2? 

Edited November 29, 2023 by Warscythes.9307

[Buran.3796]

1 hour ago, Warscythes.9307 said:

Like seriously guys have you ever tried to play with it or did you just read the patch notes and said this is awful? What is so "clunky" or "difficult" about this button compared to literally any other button? It doesn't have forced movement, it doesn't lock you in animation for eternity, it doesn't require some wonky targetting. Is it just because is on F2? 

   Have you ever played a Berserker Warrior and pressed F2? Or a Specter? Or a Dragonhunter, a Spell breaker or a Bladesworn? Those specs have F2 skills with provide impactful effects and have flashy animations. Vindi's F2 has nothing of that: is the same bland generic animation as casting a shout (robbed) and it does nothing. Do you get cc from EM? No. A movement skill? Nope. A major boon as quickness or alacrity? Nay. A new and isntresting class mechanic? No, you don't get anything of that.

    When I play Warrior I want to press F2 because makes "cool things happen", is appealing in both the visuals and the changes you get; when you press energy meld nothing happens, some numbers may vary but is nothing relevant. I can stand pressing F4's Orders From Above because albeit is a boring  and insipid skill at least provides meaningful effects (specially with others) but Energy Merde is waaay worse. F2 is not Vindicator's game mechanic; in fact can be argued that Vindi has no game mechanic: developers had to cover a hole (lack of tools in AoE power builds from Revenant) and then the lack of ideas about how to implement it made them to stole the jumping animations from Dragon class at FF XIV. Initially, the evades were different and provide different effects from damage dealing to defensive boons to support; and they linked evades and vigor/andurance recovering through traits. Then they nerfed the damage, the support, the cleave and now they cut the ties between evading and getting vigor and said "hey, this nothing F2 skill that does nothing is now your class mechanic", as if it were like a Necro's Shourd or a Warrior's Berserker mode or Holo's Photon Forge. Is not. Is a nothing which replaces something already nerfed but valuable with a cimmick.

   That didn't use to be the case; ANet used to be original and flashy, but ran out of ideas with EoD. Take a look of how other games as BDO keep adding new classes to the game without repeating the same gameplay, animations or effects and see how is going here. In my opinion, if you want to add a skill or weapon or trait which does nothing, don't do it, specially if you have to change things that are already working. CmC: stay on Ele. Don't waste time and resources from ANet in a class which bores you to tears as Rev, because we can see it from a mile. You're ruining professions you don't even play to game modes most players don't even touch and in which you won't play a Revanyway.

   So please don't ask me to press your lame F2 in my Vindi; I won't.

 

  Edit: by the way, Contained Temper is another masterpiece in redesign: 5 energy units gained in in WvW and PvP after breaking a stun... It doesn't even covers half of the cost of our cheapest breakstuns and of course has a internal cooldown because Lord forbid us of gaining back 10 energy afterspending 40+ in two stunbreaks...

Edited November 29, 2023 by Buran.3796

[Warscythes.9307]

34 minutes ago, Buran.3796 said:

   Have you ever played a Berserker Warrior and pressed F2? Or a Specter? Or a Dragonhunter, a Spell breaker or a Bladesworn? Those specs have F2 skills with provide impactful effects and have flashy animations. Vindi's F2 has nothing of that: is the same bland generic animation as casting a shout (robbed) and it does nothing. Do you get cc from EM? No. A movement skill? Nope. A major boon as quickness or alacrity? Nay. A new and isntresting class mechanic? No, you don't get anything of that.

    When I play Warrior I want to press F2 because makes "cool things happen", is appealing in both the visuals and the changes you get; when you press energy meld nothing happens, some numbers may vary but is nothing relevant. I can stand pressing F4's Orders From Above because albeit is a boring  and insipid skill at least provides meaningful effects (specially with others) but Energy Merde is waaay worse. F2 is not Vindicator's game mechanic; in fact can be argued that Vindi has no game mechanic: developers had to cover a hole (lack of tools in AoE power builds from Revenant) and then the lack of ideas about how to implement it made them to stole the jumping animations from Dragon class at FF XIV. Initially, the evades were different and provide different effects from damage dealing to defensive boons to support; and they linked evades and vigor/andurance recovering through traits. Then they nerfed the damage, the support, the cleave and now they cut the ties between evading and getting vigor and said "hey, this nothing F2 skill that does nothing is now your class mechanic", as if it were like a Necro's Shourd or a Warrior's Berserker mode or Holo's Photon Forge. Is not. Is a nothing which replaces something already nerfed but valuable with a cimmick.

   That didn't use to be the case; ANet used to be original and flashy, but ran out of ideas with EoD. Take a look of how other games as BDO keep adding new classes to the game without repeating the same gameplay, animations or effects and see how is going here. In my opinion, if you want to add a skill or weapon or trait which does nothing, don't do it, specially if you have to change things that are already working. CmC: stay on Ele. Don't waste time and resources from ANet in a class which bores you to tears as Rev, because we can see it from a mile. You're ruining professions you don't even play to game modes most players don't even touch and in which you won't play a Revanyway.

   So please don't ask me to press your lame F2 in my Vindi; I won't.

Great, sounds like they can buff the profession skills even more. Which is completely unrelated to what I was talking about. What I was talking about is the people saying the rotation is now somehow suddenly incredibly different or difficult or clunky. There is literally nothing that makes the rotation suddenly more clunky or difficult by pressing energy meld. It feels like people see the patch notes and decided pushing one extra button is now somehow end of the world and makes it completely different when in reality if you play it for more than 2 minutes, you will realize is just a button like any other button. There is literally a guy saying the cd should be reduced...when it is already reduced to 10 seconds in PvE if you pick the trait. This sort of stuff just makes me realize people literally don't actually play the game and just decided to complain about reading the patch notes.

Also since you bring up BDO, I'd say that is the ABSOLUTE worst MMO to compare to. BDO is the epitome of all flash, in fact it has way too much flash. The PvE is ultimately a pure mob grinder. What it does well is the skills feel cool but when the vast majority of it is basically dynasty warrior for X hours, there really isn't much to consider in terms of skill design other than crank flash to the max. You play PvP, then surely you see the problem when this sort of design comes into play, yes it is incredibly skillful if we completely ignore desync and lag but is it really the good kind of skillful? Everyone moves at super sonic speed, you have literally rng cc hit chance, everything is incredibly difficult to read unless all you play against is a warrior running at you trying to grab, not to mention their recent design has neutered gvg in general. I don't know if you actually played bdo or just watched videos and just played seasonals, but is not as great as it looks.

Edited November 29, 2023 by Warscythes.9307

[Darklord Roy.2514]

22 hours ago, Buran.3796 said:

Dps Herald will never be a thing.

Confusing take. DPS herald has already been a thing for a while, both condi and power, and it does respectable damage. Unless you're referring to a change in this patch that nerfed it?

[Buran.3796]

33 minutes ago, Warscythes.9307 said:

    What I was talking about is the people saying the rotation is now somehow suddenly incredibly different or difficult or clunky. There is literally nothing that makes the rotation suddenly more clunky or difficult by pressing energy meld.

   You don't do "rotations" in WvW; you react to your environment or you end in a bloody pond in the floor. Again, I have no problem with the F2 changes in PvE, but in WvW is a steaming pile of garbage, the same was was puting a root in staff's #5, decreasing Forced Engagement from 1200 to 900 or changing the mechanics (not the numbers) of Coalescence of Ruin. Those kind of changes (and removing procs from evading is) ends or removing the 6th effect from runes end ruining builds and making everyone either quitting or running the same build (I've spent near 300 gold coins ofther SotO changing all the runes in my 19 characters and guess what: now they only use 3 runes across 55 gear templates...

   Those nerfs (Vindicator traits and Contained Temper) did nothing to enhance Rev's gameplay, and meanwhile they buffed short bow (nobody asked) which was already brokenly op in WvW...

[Warscythes.9307]

14 minutes ago, Buran.3796 said:

   You don't do "rotations" in WvW; you react to your environment or you end in a bloody pond in the floor. Again, I have no problem with the F2 changes in PvE, but in WvW is a steaming pile of garbage, the same was was puting a root in staff's #5, decreasing Forced Engagement from 1200 to 900 or changing the mechanics (not the numbers) of Coalescence of Ruin. Those kind of changes (and removing procs from evading is) ends or removing the 6th effect from runes end ruining builds and making everyone either quitting or running the same build (I've spent near 300 gold coins ofther SotO changing all the runes in my 19 characters and guess what: now they only use 3 runes across 55 gear templates...

   Those nerfs (Vindicator traits and Contained Temper) did nothing to enhance Rev's gameplay, and meanwhile they buffed short bow (nobody asked) which was already brokenly op in WvW...

Mate, there is a reason why I said in my very first post that I only tried this in PvE so far and not in PvP/WvW. I am not the type of person who is just going to talk about things I have not tried which is why I made the disclaimer so people know what I am referring to. I will have a better idea after I get some time this weekend to play, but I can't really comment on something that I haven't even spend 5 minutes on yet and responding just based on patch notes is nonsensical. 

Edited November 29, 2023 by Warscythes.9307

[Angesombre.4630]

1 hour ago, Warscythes.9307 said:

Great, sounds like they can buff the profession skills even more. Which is completely unrelated to what I was talking about. What I was talking about is the people saying the rotation is not somehow suddenly incredibly different or difficult or clunky. There is literally nothing that makes the rotation suddenly more clunky or difficult by pressing energy meld. It feels like people see the patch notes and decided pushing one extra button is now somehow end of the world and makes it completely different when in reality if you play it for more than 2 minutes, you will realize is just a button like any other button. There is literally a guy saying the cd should be reduced...when it is already reduced to 10 seconds in PvE if you pick the trait. This sort of stuff just makes me realize people literally don't actually play the game and just decided to complain about reading the patch notes.

Also since you bring up BDO, I'd say that is the ABSOLUTE worst MMO to compare to. BDO is the epitome of all flash, in fact it has way too much flash. The PvE is ultimately a pure mob grinder. What it does well is the skills feel cool but when the vast majority of it is basically dynasty warrior for X hours, there really isn't much to consider in terms of skill design other than crank flash to the max. You play PvP, then surely you see the problem when this sort of design comes into play, yes it is incredibly skillful if we completely ignore desync and lag but is it really the good kind of skillful? Everyone moves at super sonic speed, you have literally rng cc hit chance, everything is incredibly difficult to read unless all you play against is a warrior running at you trying to grab, not to mention their recent design has neutered gvg in general. I don't know if you actually played bdo or just watched videos and just played seasonals, but is not as great as it looks.

If you look at the Daredevil he has a jumping mechanic that has nothing to do with any button, yet he has 3 dodges he is much more mobile, has stealth and good dps. He also has the possibility of dodges with these double dagger weapons which considerably increases the possibility of dodging. He has skills that can be chosen to restore stamina without taking into account the possible energy pills and the escape relic. For me its only problem is fragility but that can be compensated for.
And the vindicator have to use a stupid button (F2) which was almost useless just over a day ago. Whoever had mobility and good dps or good healing had the equivalent of a single trait. The entire mobility mechanics have been broken. Why not just make interesting choices on the other 2 traits and leave Song of Arboreum as it was.
It's like the change of the short bow, noted the trait of renegade not even been compensated.
I saw 2 vindicators today, one of which didn't even use dodge, which is almost like having a core warrior.
So yes the Vindicator has become very boring to play.

BDO is a boring game in idea but with good character mechanics, the problem lies in the rest of the game which is just farming.

The only other class that has also had problems with dodging but that I know little about is the mirage, however it can have a lot of vigor in stealth and mobility and a lot of range.

Edited November 30, 2023 by Angesombre.4630

[Kagaho.5378]

I was apprehensive coming into Tuesday's changes for Vindicator. I do not enjoy using Energy Meld. That said, in a PvE Power DPS context, I think this works out to be a quality of life / feel nerf and a slight DPS buff. I had to unlearn the "old ways" and build some comfort with using Energy Meld, but it does fit into a minimally modified Snowcrows rotation (skipping Energy Mend entirely while in Shiro as you don't have any energy to spare, and then use it in Alliance right before the standard dodges in the rotation). This allowed me to hit my highest single loop (partial, since the 1M HP golem dies before the entire loop completes) benchmark yet (this is without stat infusions btw):

DPS: 43,744
Damage: 1,009,620
Time: 23

I'm not sold that this is an overall improvement, as the feel is worse, and adds an additional button for my tired fingers to press 😅. 

Edited November 30, 2023 by Kagaho.5378

[Angesombre.4630]

It's a pain mainly if you're playing solo, but in a group I don't think it makes much difference as long as you have vigor, the only difference being the 25% less.

Edited November 30, 2023 by Angesombre.4630

[Tokizo.8917]

2 hours ago, Warscythes.9307 said:

Change is pretty great in PvE, not sure what the crying is about. Haven't tried in PvP/WvW yet. This is a good change in the right direction to make energy meld and jump more flavorful.

Like seriously guys have you ever tried to play with it or did you just read the patch notes and said this is awful? What is so "clunky" or "difficult" about this button compared to literally any other button? It doesn't have forced movement, it doesn't lock you in animation for eternity, it doesn't require some wonky targetting. Is it just because is on F2? 

Sry but do you seriously play vindi?  I also only play PVE and spamming that dodge button and having so many boons is what made this class so fun. Even when using F2 now you dodge way less. so you also have less boon uptime. And if you want to to compensate with retribution you either lose dmg from invocation (also your 100% critical chance drops to 75) or you lose your sustain from salvation. Or more dmg if you were running devastation.

[Warscythes.9307]

13 minutes ago, Angesombre.4630 said:

If you look at the Daredevil he has a jumping mechanic that has nothing to do with any button, yet he has 3 dodges he is much more mobile, has stealth and good dps. He also has the possibility of dodges with these double dagger weapons which considerably increases the possibility of dodging. He has skills that can be chosen to restore stamina without taking into account the possible energy pills and the escape relic. For me its only problem is fragility but that can be compensated for.
And the vindicator have to use a stupid button (F2) which was almost useless just over a day ago. Whoever had mobility and good dps or good healing had the equivalent of a single trait. The entire mobility mechanics have been broken. Why not just make interesting choices on the other 2 traits and leave Song of Arboreum as it was.
It's like the change of the short bow, noted the trait of renegade not even been compensated.
I saw 2 vindicators today, one of which didn't even use dodge, which is almost like having a core warrior.
So yes the Vindicator has become very boring to play.

BDO is a boring game in idea but with good character mechanics, the problem lies in the rest of the game which is just farming.

The only other class that has also had problems with dodging but that I know little about is the mirage, however it can have a lot of vigor in stealth and mobility and a lot of range.

Is this PvE or PvP or WvW? Because DD is a very different story in different game modes and I mentioned that I only tried the change in PvE so far so I can't make a reference about PvP or WvW. Regardless a vindi not even using dodge is just trolling in any game mode. You can't look at at a bad player and think it means anything lol.

Edited November 30, 2023 by Warscythes.9307

[Howluffu.7259]

It feels clunky it feels worst even when I try to used it as before in openworld with the sigil of stamina the moment I am not killing anything makes me kill my character. Same in the instanced group content. The 25% more effective vigor is gone...it makes everything slower. IDC it has better dmg I want a rotation to feel good and fluid not this crappy boxes stop that is this F2 Energy Meld.

Energy Meld = BAD DEV DESIGN

[Angesombre.4630]

3 minutes ago, Warscythes.9307 said:

Is this PvE or PvP or WvW? Because DD is a very different story in different game modes and I mentioned that I only tried the change in PvE so far.

I tested in PvE and it quickly pissed me off what I saw of it was also PvE, same for a test on a vindicator WvW duel and it was boring. Since then, I've switched back to herald.

[Warscythes.9307]

16 minutes ago, Angesombre.4630 said:

I tested in PvE and it quickly pissed me off what I saw of it was also PvE, same for a test on a vindicator WvW duel and it was boring. Since then, I've switched back to herald.

See I just don't understand, because in PvE barely anything changed. This thing about how 1/2cd made the rotation is "clunky" when the vast majority of the damage buttons vindi press has a 1/2cd cast or more. Is not like there is some expensive aftercast either, or rather I haven't noticed it. I am convinced is just people not used to the new rotation than anything else and just call it clunky. Unless you are referring to be able to spam dodge as much as possible then I don't know what to say. 

Also guys, do you not see how big is the increase? Is 100%. Your dodge NUKES since it crit for 60k with boons/vul. You can just pretend energy meld is a power up like a dragoon preparing to fly and then come down later with a super powered jump. This is great. There is no forced movement, there is no huge cast time, there is no some ally targeting and there is no forced to stand still to cast that generally cause the "clunky" feeling. The only thing I can agree is that the animation can be buffed because to be frank, none of their animations lately has been great due to budget issues. Maybe the powered up jump can have more flair to it for sure. But I am really not sure where is the "clunky" complaint coming from.

Edited November 30, 2023 by Warscythes.9307

[Angesombre.4630]

13 minutes ago, Warscythes.9307 said:

See I just don't understand, because in PvE barely anything changed. This thing about how 1/2cd made the rotation is "clunky" when the vast majority of the damage buttons vindi press has a 1/2cd cast or more. Is not like there is some expensive aftercast either, or rather I haven't noticed it. I am convinced is just people not used to the new rotation than anything else and just call it clunky. Unless you are referring to be able to spam dodge as much as possible then I don't know what to say. 

Almost nothing has changed if you don't count the obligation to play in a group to have the same DPS, if you don't count the obligation to press F2 to be able to dodge, if you don't count the fact that the class is much less mobile because of all that, effectively nothing has changed...

[Warscythes.9307]

16 minutes ago, Angesombre.4630 said:

Almost nothing has changed if you don't count the obligation to play in a group to have the same DPS, if you don't count the obligation to press F2 to be able to dodge, if you don't count the fact that the class is much less mobile because of all that, effectively nothing has changed...

Mate, where exactly are you having issues soloing? 

I will be honest but I have been holding this question as well, but I am 99% sure during OW vindi has a overcap on endurance because unlike group PvE. You should be spamming scavenger's burst to maintain fury and quickness. This skill is way up the priority list in OW compared to raid rotation where both boons are provided. Each enemy hit by this provides 20 endurance, each, not 1 instance and you need to spam the kitten out of this skill to maintain your buffs which incidentally gives you a kitten ton of endurance back even with 1 enemy. I literally overcap on endurance, yes even after the update.

Much less mobile? Where? You know what skill is being swapped out in damage rotations? GS3 and nomad, now you can use them to move instead of using it for damage. Yes yes the cd was generally low enough that is not a huge deal. But 8 sec wasn't super low especially since you seem to be talking about OW where alacrity is not guaranteed.

So really the only conclusion I am getting here is that you are not pressing scavenger burst. Press it more often, is super good.

Edited November 30, 2023 by Warscythes.9307

[Tokizo.8917]

36 minutes ago, Warscythes.9307 said:

See I just don't understand, because in PvE barely anything changed. This thing about how 1/2cd made the rotation is "clunky" when the vast majority of the damage buttons vindi press has a 1/2cd cast or more. Is not like there is some expensive aftercast either, or rather I haven't noticed it. I am convinced is just people not used to the new rotation than anything else and just call it clunky. Unless you are referring to be able to spam dodge as much as possible then I don't know what to say. 

Also guys, do you not see how big is the increase? Is 100%. Your dodge NUKES since it crit for 60k with boons/vul. You can just pretend energy meld is a power up like a dragoon preparing to fly and then come down later with a super powered jump. This is great. There is no forced movement, there is no huge cast time, there is no some ally targeting and there is no forced to stand still to cast that generally cause the "clunky" feeling. The only thing I can agree is that the animation can be buffed because to be frank, none of their animations lately has been great due to budget issues. Maybe the powered up jump can have more flair to it for sure. But I am really not sure where is the "clunky" complaint coming from.

The dmg is 100% increased..... like...wow... yes....your one dodge is little more increased...did you not do any golum tests? your DPS is lower than before.... what good does 1 attack do if your overall damage over time is going down?

[Angesombre.4630]

8 minutes ago, Warscythes.9307 said:

Mate, where exactly are you having issues soloing? 

I will be honest but I have been holding this question as well, but I am 99% sure during OW vindi has a overcap on endurance because unlike group PvE. You should be spamming scavenger's burst to maintain fury and quickness. This skill is way up the priority list in OW compared to raid rotation where both boons are provided. Each enemy hit by this provides 20 endurance, each, not 1 instance and you need to spam the kitten out of this skill to maintain your buffs which incidentally gives you a kitten ton of endurance back even with 1 enemy. I literally overcap on endurance, yes even after the update.

Much less mobile? Where? You know what skill is being swapped out in damage rotations? GS3 and nomad, now you can use them to move instead of using it for damage. Yes yes the cd was generally low enough that is not a huge deal. But 8 sec wasn't super low especially since you seem to be talking about OW where alacrity is not guaranteed.

So really the only conclusion I am getting here is that you are not pressing scavenger burst. Press it more often, is super good.

Mate, where do you find it funny to use the F2?
My problem comes from the F2 which I find annoying as said several times. It's not fun to play vindicator this way. If that's your pleasure, good for you, but that's not my case.

I don't think a trait that improves healing after nerfing it several times and a little dps for nerf in a few updates will be useful. And having a trait that gives a unique skill of giving endurance to another is well knowing that this probably becomes too important at some point and knowing that before the 28th we were already giving vigor to allies.

[Warscythes.9307]

2 minutes ago, Tokizo.8917 said:

The dmg is 100% increased..... like...wow... yes....your one dodge is little more increased...did you not do any golum tests? your DPS is lower than before.... what good does 1 attack do if your overall damage over time is going down?

Overall damage went up, where did you hear it went down? Also genuine question, do people really want damage to up even higher? We are kind in the middle of the biggest powercreep the game has ever seen.

Edited November 30, 2023 by Warscythes.9307

[Warscythes.9307]

10 minutes ago, Angesombre.4630 said:

Mate, where do you find it funny to use the F2?
My problem comes from the F2 which I find annoying as said several times. It's not fun to play vindicator this way. If that's your pleasure, good for you, but that's not my case.

I don't think a trait that improves healing after nerfing it several times and a little dps for nerf in a few updates will be useful. And having a trait that gives a unique skill of giving endurance to another is well knowing that this probably becomes too important at some point and knowing that before the 28th we were already giving vigor to allies.

I really just don't understand why people find it annoying because it has none of the usual things that makes people feel "clunky", aka the stuff I talked about like long cast time or forced movement etc. Of course I can't force people to like or dislike something. I find it great because I press it and big number appears, monkey brain happy at big number. I think that's pretty common. People are quoting things like "1/2sec cd" even though most buttons you are pressing has a 1/2sec cd and is not like energy meld has some gigantic after cast. So I think this is more people are not used to press a different button so they call it clunky instead, aka it goes away after people are used to it.

Also what are you even talking about, your second paragraph honestly looks garbled. I don't quite understand. The point of the change is to make the profession button worth using, we can talk about whether or not it feels impactful or is it good enough whatever, that's fine. I just really don't think that this is suddenly makes the class rotation clunky is true. At least I am looking at it and I don't see why it would be more clunky than say GS3 which is a forced movement skill that you use for damage. I guess you can accidentally cancel it via dodge?

Edited November 30, 2023 by Warscythes.9307

[Angesombre.4630]

27 minutes ago, Warscythes.9307 said:

I really just don't understand why people find it annoying because it has none of the usual things that makes people feel "clunky", aka the stuff I talked about like long cast time or forced movement etc. Of course I can't force people to like or dislike something. I find it great because I press it and big number appears, monkey brain happy at big number. I think that's pretty common. People are quoting things like "1/2sec cd" even though most buttons you are pressing has a 1/2sec cd and is not like energy meld has some gigantic after cast. So I think this is more people are not used to press a different button so they call it clunky instead, aka it goes away after people are used to it.

Also what are you even talking about, your second paragraph honestly looks garbled. I don't quite understand. The point of the change is to make the profession button worth using, we can talk about whether or not it feels impactful or is it good enough whatever, that's fine. I just really don't think that this is suddenly makes the class rotation clunky is true. At least I am looking at it and I don't see why it would be more clunky than say GS3 which is a forced movement skill that you use for damage. I guess you can accidentally cancel it via dodge?

If you like this stupid button, what will prevent you from using it if it goes back to how it was before? It was already present only its usefulness was different.
There were 2 traits to replace "Reaver's Curse" and "Angsiyan's Trust". If he hadn't touched "Song of Arboreum" I wouldn't be here bothering myself writing these posts, because it's kitten.

So my second paragraph concerns all the nerfs that have been made regarding the vindicator's healing and dps, mainly in WvW and PvP. If you add an intermediate trait which increases damage and healing, what do you think will happen?

Edited November 30, 2023 by Angesombre.4630

[Warscythes.9307]

21 minutes ago, Angesombre.4630 said:

If you like this stupid button, what will prevent you from using it if it goes back to how it was before? It was already present only its usefulness was different.
There were 2 traits to replace "Reaver's Curse" and "Angsiyan's Trust". If he hadn't touched "Song of Arboreum" I wouldn't be here bothering myself writing these posts, because it's kitten.

So my second paragraph concerns all the nerfs that have been made regarding the vindicator's healing and dps, mainly in WvW and PvP. If you add an intermediate trait which increases damage and healing, what do you think will happen?

It was basically literally never used in PvE. That is the problem, this is the profession button. It would be like spellbreakers never press their counter in PvE. 

Does song absolutely need to be replaced? I actually don't think is absolutely required. But we were all talking about clunky controls or how vindi rotation is bad or damage went down or how is less mobile, which is frankly what I was having issues with, because it really just looks like people that just never played the patch and complained after glancing at the notes. I played it during bit of my lunch break at patch day and it was pretty obvious there really was no difference other than your dodge nukes and you press a different button sometimes. I didn't mention PvP and WvW much because as I mentioned before, I haven't tried it yet, but I can talk about PvE. You can't just decide to mention non PvE when I specifically asked if you were talking about PvE or PvP or WvW man. Different game modes are pretty different and I haven't played in all 3 yet. So no, I can't talk about it because I haven't tried it yet. I can only guess that if a master trait was added that increased damage and healing.......I have no idea because I don't know what are the numbers, how to trigger it, what is the radius, is there a cd etc etc etc.

Edited November 30, 2023 by Warscythes.9307

[Yasai.3549]

7 minutes ago, Warscythes.9307 said:

It was basically literally never used in PvE. That is the problem, this is the profession button. It would be like spellbreakers never press their counter in PvE. 

Does song absolutely need to be replaced? I actually don't think is absolutely required. But we were all talking about clunky controls or how vindi rotation is bad or damage went down or how is less mobile, which is frankly what I was having issues with, because it really just looks like people that just never played the patch and complained after glancing at the notes. I played it during bit of my lunch break at patch day and it was pretty obvious there really was no difference other than your dodge nukes and you press a different button sometimes. I didn't mention PvP and WvW much because as I mentioned before, I haven't tried it yet, but I can talk about PvE. You can't just decide to mention non PvE when I specifically asked if you were talking about PvE or PvP or WvW man. Different game modes are pretty different and I haven't played in all 3 yet. So no, I can't talk about it because I haven't tried it yet. I can only guess that if a master trait was added that increased damage and healing.......I have no idea because I don't know what are the numbers, how to trigger it, what is the radius, is there a cd etc etc etc.

You do realize the entire reason for all this fuss is that:
 

1. People hate having an additional button in their rotation.

2. It used to be good, then it got changed to be actually bad.

3. It was never needed in the first place, but shoved in and takes 3 Major trait slots.

That's why this 1 tiny button is so offensive to Vindi players. It's just so intrusive yet being utterly pointless. People are not joking when they say they can play Vindi to full capacity without even traiting Master Major. It's that useless and that impactless, but intrudes upon potential trait choices if it just didn't exist. Shortchanged doesn't even begin to describe the feeling of having not 1, not 2, but essentially 3 dead traits. 

Edited November 30, 2023 by Yasai.3549

[Angesombre.4630]

3 minutes ago, Warscythes.9307 said:

It was basically literally never used in PvE. That is the problem, this is the profession button. It would be like spellbreakers never press their counter in PvE. 

Does song absolutely need to be replaced? I actually don't think is absolutely required. But we were all talking about clunky controls or how vindi rotation is bad or damage went down or how is less mobile, which is frankly what I was having issues with, because it really just looks like people that just never played the patch and complained after glancing at the notes. I played it during bit of my lunch break at patch day and there really was no difference other than your dodge nukes and you press a different button sometimes. I didn't mention PvP and WvW much because as I mentioned before, I haven't tried it yet, but I can talk about PvE. You can't just decide to mention non PvE when I specifically asked if you were talking about PvE or PvP or WvW man. Different game modes are pretty different and I haven't played in all 3 yet. So no, I can't talk about it because I haven't tried it yet. I can only guess that if a master trait was added that increased damage and healing.......I have no idea because I don't know what are the numbers, how to trigger it, what is the radius, is there a cd etc etc etc.

The F2 is linked to the trait so it comes down to the same thing because its usefulness depends on the trait you choose. I only tested in PvE and as I already said, it's annoying to have to click on this button every 10 to 20 seconds. The daredevil didn't need a button to continue moving a lot in all directions for example, and his gameplay is fluid.
This slows down the game, I feel like I'm not as mobile since the change on 28.
In addition, I talked about other traits that risk being nerfed (not necessarily in PvE) such as giving direct endurance (therefore unique buff) to the other subsequently.
And if I mentioned WvW and PvP it's because of the trait which gives damage and additional healing knowing that they have been nerfed several times so if we add healing, in a short time the devs will nerf him again.