CORE PROFFESIONS HORIZONTAL PROGRESSION IN FUTURE???

[arazoth.7290]

8 hours ago, Geoff Fey.1035 said:

Then everyone would play Core Builds. There's entire traitlines where the full line is almost completely useless, but a single Grandmaster trait in it is so powerful that builds will take it simply to get access to that singular trait. ANet would have to implement 4th traitlines that are minimally useful so as not to edge out Elite Specs, in which case why even bother implementing them at all.

Personally, I think adding Heroes would be nice (restricted to instanced content; does not include things like Dragonstorm), gives people another customization as well as opening up instanced content a little bit more for people who have trouble finding/making groups. Sure, you wouldn't be clearing 100CM Fractals, Raids, or Harvest Temple, but it would help people muddle through Dungeons, 1-25 Fractals, Fast5 Strikes, and Personal Story (for those who need it).

Why are you scared that elite specs won't be played anymore???

It isn't about making it better then elite specs, it's to even it out. Atm elite specs have an edge over core builds (don't come with core support guard exception).

There should be enough beta test time with something this big obv.

And about marketing because it's core acces, will it be only useable if expansion bought ofcourse.

So no it isn't about giving it super op traits. Change is scary but imo it's a great idea

[arazoth.7290]

12 hours ago, arazoth.7290 said:

WHAT IF

You can get now a 4th sort of self completely build traitline that is inspired by the previous selected 3 traitlines. Only core builds can get this.

 

So you have a 4th sort of selfmade.

 •Your major traits are a further extension of the 3 previous traitlines. You can choose which major trait belongs to which traitline to go in further, 1 traitline for 1 major each.

•Your minor traits are a further extension of the 3 previous traitlines too. You can choose tol which minor trait belongs to which traitline to go further in, 1 traitline for 1 minor each.

Example what I  meant(rev): (don't look at the suggestion being op or not, it's just to set an image to show the difference how things can be build.) These are also no suggestion for what the traits could be, just to sketch it out.

====>

•1 less major trait invocation: The boons/conditions you get/give by changing stances is increased by an additional 3 seconds and 1 stack each more condition applied.
•1 master major trait Retribution: Resolution and protection boons when active give 20% counter damage when active and you are damaged.
•1 grandmaster trait Salvation: Your tablet now pulses regen boon each second passively and Empowerment now has 2 charges instead of 1 when summoned or resfresed each time.

Same idea for the minor traits.

<====

And IF I had now chosen invocation traitline to be as grandmaster traitline instead. It could have been that F2 skill becomes 10 seconds. The minor previous description won't stack with this.

So predetermined traits for each traitline for each major/minor. So that's why it would add a lot of build diversity with something already existing. And this just by adding 1 for core only ofcourse. So you can go different directions more with builds ^^.

It's to even out core with elite specs without making elite specs suffer and giving core some little different on its own.

AND obviously beta testing few weeks with this. Just to get enough data what to do after 😁

Edited January 3 by arazoth.7290

[Phyb.6704]

2 hours ago, arazoth.7290 said:

It isn't about more power. It's about giving more build variety and getting core builds more available. It won't harm elite specs since they don't benefit from it. It's core only.

This is why though a different approach of just letting anyone without an elite spec to use 4 trait lines at once.... I do agree with having a 4th trait line. Be it custom or just an existing one. The core trait lines are not as powerful as the elite ones but this gives more build variety. Many classes would have new open world builds and many support builds. 

[arazoth.7290]

1 minute ago, ohericoseo.4316 said:

This is why though a different approach of just letting anyone without an elite spec to use 4 trait lines at once.... I do agree with having a 4th trait line. Be it custom or just an existing one. The core trait lines are not as powerful as the elite ones but this gives more build variety. Many classes would have new open world builds and many support builds. 

Yea indeed. Also this one I mentioned is sort of a 4th but mostly an extension to the ones you chose.

Which opens lot of new build variety by many different paths you could potentially run.

And this is just because you have choices with existing traitlines you like to focus more or less on. This is by putting it in the new different major/minor trait tiers. Like shown in earlier example.

[Guy.9207]

I would love to see options of picking weapon skills tbh. Like having multiple variants of...say, untamed hammer. We could apply it to guardian's mighty blow to have alternate variants without needing a trait to switch over.

[Gaiawolf.8261]

On 1/3/2024 at 3:09 AM, NeverLoseGuy.3894 said:

I would love to see options of picking weapon skills tbh. Like having multiple variants of...say, untamed hammer. We could apply it to guardian's mighty blow to have alternate variants without needing a trait to switch over.

I always thought it would be nice for all have weapons to have generic skills that represent their typical use, and let any character use them regardless of profession. Then if it's a signature weapon, you can replace the generic skills with the profession-specific skills. Say mesmers could only use hammers in the traditional way, but since they have the greatsword as a signature weapon, they can choose to shoot laser beams out of it instead of swinging it.

[Raarsi.6798]

I've never understood this idea of making core specs on par with elite specs.  Then again, I've always seen the core specs as stepping stones to the elite specs with the somewhat recent core adjustments being QoL additions for players leveling and working toward their first elite spec.

On top of that, it wouldn't make any financial sense for Anet to make core specs equal to elite specs because that would potentially mean less reason for players to buy expansions, which means less money for Anet.

[CafPow.1542]

On 12/13/2023 at 7:20 PM, Dawdler.8521 said:

Everything they add to core that make it worth playing core, make it even more worth playing elites. Because that's how the system works. 

So how exactly would this do anything for core?

Exactly that’s why one would need to extrnd core by extending core f-skills…

quick ontop of my head you get (only in corespec)

warriors het an f2 where they can draw a 3rd weapon

guradians get an f4 that will influence virtues or is an additional virtue or resets a virtue or whatever

revs get a core-exclusive legend

rangers can summon a second pet parallel to the 2 swappets

thieves get… nerfs i guess (jk)

engies have a lot of buttons, but you could give them weaponswap on core or something

mesmers gain another exclusive shatter ability

eles also get weapon swap on core or an f5 that buffs the atunment they’re in at the moment

necros is easy, rework core shroud

yeah. Cause this way, you have something that is exclusiv to core and you can buff / nerf it. Something like that.

[Dadnir.5038]

2 hours ago, CafPow.1542 said:

warriors het an f2 where they can draw a 3rd weapon

An F2 for core warrior would be a good thing. Making it allow a 3rd weapon would probably be a little to challenging for the developpement team thought.

2 hours ago, CafPow.1542 said:

guradians get an f4 that will influence virtues or is an additional virtue or resets a virtue or whatever

They just need better effects on core virtues active skills. I mean, active skills that are at least on the level of DH's virtues' active skills.

2 hours ago, CafPow.1542 said:

revs get a core-exclusive legend

I don't think that's the solution. The work need to be done on the F2: Ancient echo.

2 hours ago, CafPow.1542 said:

rangers can summon a second pet parallel to the 2 swappets

No! In PvE it wouldn't be even close to be "good" while in WvW it would be even worse that how it currently is. I don't even think it would be worth using in sPvP. Hyena is proof enough that it would be a bad idea.

Vanilla ranger came with weapon that have skills that provide effects to the pets on use. Disable those effects for the e-specs and add such effects only available for core on the new weapons.

3 hours ago, CafPow.1542 said:

thieves get… nerfs i guess (jk)

Give it the ability to chose what stolen object steal catch between a "random/profession specific" stolen object or a stolen object that grant 2 points of initiative on use.

3 hours ago, CafPow.1542 said:

engies have a lot of buttons, but you could give them weaponswap on core or something

Engies already have a true trade off. You could argue that the current core F5 are so-so but if they do have something to work on that should be these one.

3 hours ago, CafPow.1542 said:

mesmers gain another exclusive shatter ability

It would be better if they finally gave mirage his own shatters.

3 hours ago, CafPow.1542 said:

eles also get weapon swap on core or an f5 that buffs the atunment they’re in at the moment

Give core elementalist the lingering attunment effect from a trait that was lost when HoT was introduced. It might not seem much but keeping the effect of traits like Empowering flame, Zephyr's speed, Stone flesh or Soothing mist for a few seconds after swaping attunment was a great deal of QoL.

3 hours ago, CafPow.1542 said:

necros is easy, rework core shroud

Yep, especially it's AA. Forget about the piercing effect of this skill and just give it splash damage (it's called life blast after all).

[CafPow.1542]

Yeah see i was just pulling something out of my a**
^^
but the concept is clear. And imo the only way to make core better without buffing the elites simultaneously.

your suggestions are cool tho ^^ especially the ranger one

Edited January 19 by CafPow.1542

[ShadowKatt.6740]

On 1/13/2024 at 6:13 AM, Raarsi.6798 said:

I've never understood this idea of making core specs on par with elite specs.  Then again, I've always seen the core specs as stepping stones to the elite specs with the somewhat recent core adjustments being QoL additions for players leveling and working toward their first elite spec.

On top of that, it wouldn't make any financial sense for Anet to make core specs equal to elite specs because that would potentially mean less reason for players to buy expansions, which means less money for Anet.

I believe you, because I think a lot of people see the elite specs that way. And that's not your fault, that was the asinine people at Anet that named it. "Elite" specialization was a kitten poor name because it makes it seem like they should be better. They shouldn't be better. They should be different, but they NEVER should have made the core profession irrelevant.

Since I'm a mesmer I'll use mesmer as the example. We have Core, Chronomancer, Mirage, and Virtuoso. Given that Weapon Mastery has rendered weapon choice largely irrelevant as well I won't comment on that, but let's take a look at what's unique to each spec taken more or less verbatim from the wiki:

• Mesmer: Illusions, both in the form of Phantasms and Clones, the latter of which can be shattered for great effect. Mesmers also have immdiate access to Glamors, Manipulations, Mantras, and Signets
• Chronomancer: Gain a new set of shatters that either hit multiple times or affect the flow of time. They gain access to wells which let them alter pockets of the battlefield and traits that let them affect time on their foes, their friends, their illusions, and themselves.
• Mirage: Become intangible with the Mirage Cloak, making you as untouchable as a desert haze and graning you the ability to retaliate against your foes with vicious ambushes. Use Deception skills to confuse your enemies, outflank them, and simply be as elusive as the oasis on the horizon.
• Virtuoso: The walking hair trigger, always ready to go off. Eschewing clones for blades held always at the ready, they use their mental Psionics to cut down everything in front of them, behind them, or just everywhere at once. Death by a thousand cuts.

I want you to note though that nowhere in there does it say that any of these really care about the other. They're not in competition. They're not trying to do the same things. Mesmers are illusionists, Chronos are time gods, Mirages are assassins, and Virtuosos....are weird, but that's not the point. The point is that there's no heirarchy here or at least there shouldn't be. Your choice of what you want to play should NEVER be determined by benchmarks. It should be solely down to WHAT do you want to do.

Unfortunately, that would be an ideal world. What you said about Anet wanting to make more money is true and that's true of every company. Power Creep is literally and deliberately a function of them wanting to always up the ante to draw in more players with absolutely zero regard for the players that are already here or the long term stability of their product. It is short term gains for long term losses, but it doesn't have to be that way. If we had a balance team that cared more about the game, and actually played the game instead of watching videos or reading forums about Snowcrows then you'd have a lot more flexibility in what you wanted to do with your character without having to worry about how badly you're kneecapping yourself through your choice of, or abstinence from, your Espec.

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

1) Add in missing heal and elite specs.

2) Opening up espec utility skills on all specs.

[Dadnir.5038]

Just throwing an idea.

How about introducing a Core only 4th GM trait in the "special mechanism "specialization?

Elementalist: Arcane traitline.

- Arcane lock: You can no longer swap attunment while in combat but can swap weapon in combat. All traits that proc on attunment swap will proc on weapon swap while in combat regardless of attunment (arcane traitline traits proc effects related to the chosen attunment).

Engineer: Tools traitline.

- Handyman: Your toolbelt skill 5 is now the skill Tool swap no matter which elite you use. Tool Swap: Change to your secondary weaponset upon using this skill. CD 10s.

Guardian: Virtues traitline.

- Ascetism: Keep virtues passive effects after using the active effects. Gain 5% damage reduction for each virtue on CD.

Mesmer: Illusion traitline.

- Illusionary burden: Your clones are bound to you instead of your foe. Increase your outgoing damage by 10% for 5 seconds after using a shatter.

Necromancer: Soul reaping traitline.

- Heart of darkness: Gain dark aura (4s) upon entering and leaving shroud. Whenever your dark aura apply torment to a foe gain 1% LF.

Ranger: Beastmastery traitline.

- Baton pass: Upon switching pets, use lesser "we heal as one!" (no heal, just boon copied).

Revenant: Invocation traitline.

- Defiant echo: Your ancient echo is now a stun break.

Thief: Trickery traitline.

- Receiver: You always gain the bundle Second wind when you steal. Second wind: Gain 2 strike of initiative and 20 point of endurance.

Warrior: Discipline traitline.

- Martial rigor: Gain access to disciplined stance (F2). Discipline stance: Stance. Gain 1000pts of barrier and an additional 100 per might stack on you. CD 25s.

[Phyb.6704]

since they love re using content then just let us have a 4th trait line if we dont use an elite spec. 

[arazoth.7290]

6 hours ago, ohericoseo.4316 said:

since they love re using content then just let us have a 4th trait line if we dont use an elite spec. 

But only for core*

[Phyb.6704]

1 hour ago, arazoth.7290 said:

But only for core*

Note I said. "if we dont use an elite spec"

[arazoth.7290]

4 hours ago, ohericoseo.4316 said:

Note I said. "if we dont use an elite spec"

Ahhh yea, guess it was little late that I overread that 😅

[Jski.6180]

We at least need core only group achements for pve content. I want an core only wvw week as well but that maybe too much to ask for.

[Leo G.4501]

On 12/13/2023 at 1:20 PM, Dawdler.8521 said:

Everything they add to core that make it worth playing core, make it even more worth playing elites. Because that's how the system works. 

So how exactly would this do anything for core?

For something to be usefull to core, it require a class design that makes it worth actually choosing core. Anet did it with HoT - probably the best example being core necro with it's ranged shroud vs reaper with it's melee only shroud completely changing that aspect of it - then they pretty much abandoned that concept and made the elites a plain better version at everything. Only a few "unique" things remain for core, such as core engie being the only one with access to moa.

This is easy, I in fact made similar suggestions in the past to make core-plus a horizontal option.

People suggest a 4th trait line for core but that's just too much. The simplest option is just making any standard trait line placed in the 3rd slot an improvement over it being in the other 2 slots...basically, it's an elite-core trait line. I've suggested simple to advanced options for it but it really depends how much development effort is available for making it a thing.  A simple outline:

1. [low dev time] Upgrade the profession mechanic trait line to elite when in the 3rd slot (i.e. Discipline > Elite Discipline; Illusions > Elite Illusions; Beastmastery > Elite Beastmastery; Arcane > Elite Arcane, etc).

The amount of effort could just be adding a utility to the core mechanic of the trait line or base mechanic or both through this version of the the upgraded traitline. It's important tho not to "change" the traitline but rather "enhance" the traitline in some way. This is so that those currently playing core aren't upended in how they function. It could turn this line into its own elite spec.

2. [moderate dev time] Grandmaster+ for any core traitline put in the 3rd slot.

Giving a core build 1 boosted GM trait they can pick from any of 3 currently in their build out of a potential 9 available GMs isn't quite the impact of an e-spec line BUT the versatility could open a huge amount of options or builds that it may be difficult to balance. What would a GM+ look like? You'd probably need to discuss it but just as an example: Powerful Aura upgrades to include any auras you apply auto-transmute upon expiration. How OP would that be? Probably, but there could be means to reign that in to be ok and it could change a lot about a build.

3. [lots of dev time] Take #2 but add on top of that traits that that improve on that line's utilities.

Would likely be on a need to basis tho. Some utilities have fallen by the wayside and even if buffed are still niche. Maybe add in to this idea to make, for example, Stance builds on Warrior better or Traps on Ranger. If the player wants to have fun with a specific set of utilities that are really limited use, there could be a build option here to make those utilities better under this specific set of conditions (that is, only taking non-elite specs and picking the specific trait line that improves the desired utility type). I'd try and put these improvements on the minors tho so there's still some customization available.

Ultimately, the point should be giving you better options BUT you still have to finely select said options. Flooding in whole lines is out of the question but focusing a singular game changer could be much easier to relegate. I'd be curious to know if a core Ele with auto-transmuting auras on a build that can spread them to allies quickly would even be comparable at all to Catalyst or Weaver. 

[arazoth.7290]

4 minutes ago, Leo G.4501 said:

This is easy, I in fact made similar suggestions in the past to make core-plus a horizontal option.

People suggest a 4th trait line for core but that's just too much. The simplest option is just making any standard trait line placed in the 3rd slot an improvement over it being in the other 2 slots...basically, it's an elite-core trait line. I've suggested simple to advanced options for it but it really depends how much development effort is available for making it a thing.  A simple outline:

1. [low dev time] Upgrade the profession mechanic trait line to elite when in the 3rd slot (i.e. Discipline > Elite Discipline; Illusions > Elite Illusions; Beastmastery > Elite Beastmastery; Arcane > Elite Arcane, etc).

The amount of effort could just be adding a utility to the core mechanic of the trait line or base mechanic or both through this version of the the upgraded traitline. It's important tho not to "change" the traitline but rather "enhance" the traitline in some way. This is so that those currently playing core aren't upended in how they function. It could turn this line into its own elite spec.

2. [moderate dev time] Grandmaster+ for any core traitline put in the 3rd slot.

Giving a core build 1 boosted GM trait they can pick from any of 3 currently in their build out of a potential 9 available GMs isn't quite the impact of an e-spec line BUT the versatility could open a huge amount of options or builds that it may be difficult to balance. What would a GM+ look like? You'd probably need to discuss it but just as an example: Powerful Aura upgrades to include any auras you apply auto-transmute upon expiration. How OP would that be? Probably, but there could be means to reign that in to be ok and it could change a lot about a build.

3. [lots of dev time] Take #2 but add on top of that traits that that improve on that line's utilities.

Would likely be on a need to basis tho. Some utilities have fallen by the wayside and even if buffed are still niche. Maybe add in to this idea to make, for example, Stance builds on Warrior better or Traps on Ranger. If the player wants to have fun with a specific set of utilities that are really limited use, there could be a build option here to make those utilities better under this specific set of conditions (that is, only taking non-elite specs and picking the specific trait line that improves the desired utility type). I'd try and put these improvements on the minors tho so there's still some customization available.

Ultimately, the point should be giving you better options BUT you still have to finely select said options. Flooding in whole lines is out of the question but focusing a singular game changer could be much easier to relegate. I'd be curious to know if a core Ele with auto-transmuting auras on a build that can spread them to allies quickly would even be comparable at all to Catalyst or Weaver. 

Also a good option yes.

Then you can emphasize on the part of the traitline that matters most of the build you like

Edited February 2 by arazoth.7290

[Leo G.4501]

On 2/2/2024 at 12:25 PM, arazoth.7290 said:

Also a good option yes.

Then you can emphasize on the part of the traitline that matters most of the build you like

Thanks, I'm particular to the Grandmaster+ options since you could go kinda wild since a.) They won't interact with anything in an elite spec mechanic, b.) they won't interact with each other since you can only have 1 GM+ at a time, c.) they aren't competing or being balanced directly against e-specs or each other so you can make them niche or strong or complex...the main problem with it is coming up with 3x5x9 GM trait upgrades...and I guess since they change the balance so often, they'd either start limiting drastic changes to GM traits or be forced to change GM and GM+ traits when the need arises.

Some examples that I just came up with:

• Water - Powerful Aura+: Any auras you grant yourself is granted to nearby allies. Auras you apply auto-transmute upon expiration.
  • Pretty simple. Since the range of transmutes aren't that wide, this is mostly for extra boons (might, regen and stab) along with a pulse of damage if an enemy is close enough. With allies and traits, this can be bolstered quite a bit with both application and expiration. You can make your allies like little delayed mines of damage and boons.
• Fire - Blinding Ashes+: Inflict blindness on foes you burn. Access Smoldering Arsenal on F1 while attuned to fire.
  • Smoldering Arsenal has a cd of 45sec and available after 4sec of being attuned to Fire. Instant cast. After a delay of 0.75sec between each attack, two conjured flame weapons falls on a random foe within 450 range.
  • Once they hit the ground, a Flame Axe and Fiery Greatsword are conjured with reduced charges (1 per attack lasting for 15sec upon equipping)
  • In the Elementalist's hand, a new conjure weapon is summoned: The Ash Staff. The Ash Staff has attacks that blind with each hit, has a smoke field and a teleport and has an additional affect where any blinds applied while holding it applies burns as well.
  • A core ele with more access to stealth? Could go crazy.
• Arms - Furious+: Critical hits grant bonus adrenaline and gain multiple of a stacking condition damage effect. Said stacking condition damage effect can be spent with a Burst skill to inflect a random damaging condition.
  • Instead of gaining 1 stack of Furious Surge (10sec +15 condi damage per stack, max 25 stacks), you gain 3 per crit.
  • Upon using a Burst skill that connects, for each stack of Furious Surge (25 max) will apply that amount of stacks of either bleed, burn, torment, poison or confusion for 6sec and remove all stacks of Furious Surge.
• Discipline - Heightened Focus+: Gain quickness, superspeed and recharge your Burst skills when you strike a foe that is below the health threshold. Movement skills have varying increased range and velocity while under the effects of swiftness/superspeed.
  • The increased movement skill range is always on while under the effects of swift/ss. 
  • The range increase is variable, so some skills might be changed to have an extra 400 range (like Shield Bash) while other skills might only get an extra 200 range (like Rush)

 

 

[SpaceMarine.1836]

Why would they do that? Their primary incentive is to sell you expansions as the core game is free. They need to make money somehow so there's no incentive for them to improve core professions. In fact you see many of them heavily neglected in competitive game modes (PvP/WvW) compared to elite professions for this exact reason.

It's a perverse incentive, of course, but only other option for them would be to re-monetize the core game, and they are obviously not going to do that.

[CafPow.1542]

On 2/8/2024 at 1:36 PM, SpaceMarine.1836 said:

Why would they do that? Their primary incentive is to sell you expansions as the core game is free. They need to make money somehow so there's no incentive for them to improve core professions. In fact you see many of them heavily neglected in competitive game modes (PvP/WvW) compared to elite professions for this exact reason.

It's a perverse incentive, of course, but only other option for them would be to re-monetize the core game, and they are obviously not going to do that.

You have a point.

but on the other hand, buying the expansions brings you way more, way more important stuff.

a lot of story, new maps, mounts, gliding etc. pp. So „selling the xpac“ is not just about the e-specc. That’s why i think it would be a mistake to neglect 9/36 (or 1/4) spec-options. But maybe, anet thinks exactly the way you tell it. 

Edited February 10 by CafPow.1542

[Phyb.6704]

On 2/8/2024 at 4:36 AM, SpaceMarine.1836 said:

Why would they do that? Their primary incentive is to sell you expansions as the core game is free. They need to make money somehow so there's no incentive for them to improve core professions. In fact you see many of them heavily neglected in competitive game modes (PvP/WvW) compared to elite professions for this exact reason.

It's a perverse incentive, of course, but only other option for them would be to re-monetize the core game, and they are obviously not going to do that.

Are you aware that all the stuff from weaponmaster training is nothing new? It has all been in the game for years. They literally took what already existed and packaged it as new content. How would taking the core trait lines and making core builds viable and then smacking a tag like "core tyrian battle mastery training" on it be ANY different? 
You can use any weap regardless of elite spec vs you can use 4 trait lines instead of 3 if you dont use an elite spec. Neither gives anything new and just re packages what already exists. Not making a new weap or making a new trait line. 

Weapons --- let all specs use all weapons --- > add new weapons
Traits --- add new trait lines for elite specs ---> open up use of more trait lines when not using elite.

Basically the oposite path they took with weapons but the same end. 

[CafPow.1542]

6 minutes ago, ohericoseo.4316 said:

Are you aware that all the stuff from weaponmaster training is nothing new? It has all been in the game for years. They literally took what already existed and packaged it as new content. How would taking the core trait lines and making core builds viable and then smacking a tag like "core tyrian battle mastery training" on it be ANY different? 
You can use any weap regardless of elite spec vs you can use 4 trait lines instead of 3 if you dont use an elite spec. Neither gives anything new and just re packages what already exists. Not making a new weap or making a new trait line. 

Weapons --- let all specs use all weapons --- > add new weapons
Traits --- add new trait lines for elite specs ---> open up use of more trait lines when not using elite.

Basically the oposite path they took with weapons but the same end. 

Sure but at the moment, core is very rare outside of certain situations (coreguard in spvp).

so you basically miss out on 1/4 of „possible specs“. It’s un-used potential. It wouldn’t be something new but with an easy fix you would add more gameplay possibilities whoch would be appreciated i think.