I have mixed feelings about SOTO [Merged]

[Kiki.9450]

31 minutes ago, ronkul.1320 said:

I think that the world building for elite specs could have been done but those elite specs quests would probably have optional because the playerbase is more function or form in regards to quickly getting the right builds/gear to participate in harder game activities. Maybe those elite spec quests could have been mandatory for the first character to have that specific elite spec for quickly teaching how the elite spec works and its strengths, weaknesses, and functions for new players?

I will say that EoD handled the world building aspec of the especs better than previous expansions. I liked stumbling upon Daucus and learning about virtuoso from him, for a couple of reasons. 1. Being "Ooh another sylvari here in Cantha!" and 2. just for the "Oh, gods, not another mesmer..." line. But in the end, his main purpose was to give me information about what virtuoso is from an in-universe perspective and I appreciated that. I hope to see whatever future especs or other gameplay additions we may see receive this sort of world building and flavour as a minimum.

[kiroho.4738]

9 hours ago, Astralporing.1957 said:

I have played during that time, and was running dungeons quite intensively. On a bearbow, with bad gear (which i didn't really realize was bad at that time), and without spotter, or spirits, or any other group buffs (unique or not).

We did not talk about dungeons. We talked about raids.
Wrong content.

Edited January 22 by kiroho.4738

[Astralporing.1957]

4 hours ago, kiroho.4738 said:

We did not talk about dungeons. We talked about raids.
Wrong content.

Fair enough. Support slots were indeed originally quite locked, with only dps ones being mostly unrestricted. Still, the solution would have been to make a few viable choices for support slots for players that liked this style of play. Not to eliminate full support builds altogether, and force a hybrid support aproach on pretty much all classes. Especially when some classes/specs need to to be twisted in pretzels in order to make this approach work, resulting in worse feel on everyone that does not like playing support (which, need i remind you, is likely a majority - it is not a secret that most players in MMORPGs are not very fond of playing specialized roles to put it mildly)

[kiroho.4738]

1 hour ago, Astralporing.1957 said:

Support slots were indeed originally quite locked, with only dps ones being mostly unrestricted.

Restricted is a pretty nice description. There were Druid and Tempest as healers, nothing else. And there was Chrono for boons (Quickness+Alac), nothing else.

 

1 hour ago, Astralporing.1957 said:

Still, the solution would have been to make a few viable choices for support slots for players that liked this style of play. Not to eliminate full support builds altogether, and force a hybrid support aproach on pretty much all classes.

But that's not the case?
Each class no has access to full support builds (Warrior will have with upcoming weapons). They are not "eliminated", they are more present than ever.
Boon/dps hybrids are just another option. More options, more variety.
And just by the way, it was again players who even created this "niche".

 

1 hour ago, Astralporing.1957 said:

Especially when some classes/specs need to to be twisted in pretzels in order to make this approach work, resulting in worse feel on everyone that does not like playing support (which, need i remind you, is likely a majority - it is not a secret that most players in MMORPGs are not very fond of playing specialized roles to put it mildly)

I mean, have you watched the latest few balance patches? Because they clearly show that Anet gave more variety to previous support only specs.
Best example is Druid. They changed it from a purely support spec to a spec that can be played as support or as condition dmg.
Mech -> support, boon dps or condition dps.
Scrapper -> support, boon dps or power dps.
Tempest -> support, boon dps or condition dps.
Specter -> support, boon dps or condition dps.
And so on. Like all support specs also have non support options and none of them have to be "twisted in pretzels in order to make them work".

I personally have much fun with condi druid and condi tempest. No "twisting" needed.

[Astralporing.1957]

5 hours ago, kiroho.4738 said:

Restricted is a pretty nice description. There were Druid and Tempest as healers, nothing else. And there was Chrono for boons (Quickness+Alac), nothing else.

Yes, i did mention that support slots were locked.

5 hours ago, kiroho.4738 said:

But that's not the case?
Each class no has access to full support builds (Warrior will have with upcoming weapons). They are not "eliminated", they are more present than ever.
Boon/dps hybrids are just another option. More options, more variety.
And just by the way, it was again players who even created this "niche".

No. There's no specialized boon support build anymore. Chrono was that kind of build - it offered support (both alac and quick), and pretty much nothing else. Now, a support also doubles as heal or dps - and is usually very good in that second role. Pure boon support no longer exists, Anet made sure to kill that idea when they destroyed original chrono. And since then they've made sure that alac and quick is never going to happen on the same build.

Personally, i think that specialized boon support was more healthy, and stepping away from it is one of the main reasons behind the power creep we're now having.

5 hours ago, kiroho.4738 said:

I mean, have you watched the latest few balance patches? Because they clearly show that Anet gave more variety to previous support only specs.
Best example is Druid. They changed it from a purely support spec to a spec that can be played as support or as condition dmg.
Mech -> support, boon dps or condition dps.
Scrapper -> support, boon dps or power dps.
Tempest -> support, boon dps or condition dps.
Specter -> support, boon dps or condition dps.
And so on. Like all support specs also have non support options and none of them have to be "twisted in pretzels in order to make them work".

I personally have much fun with condi druid and condi tempest. No "twisting" needed.

...yes, i have seen those balance patches, and let's just say i am not very fond of the ways anet changed specs to force quick or alac into them. For example, Druid imo is worse off now in its original role than it was originally. So is scourge heal. And don't let me comment on quick on warrior...

Edited January 22 by Astralporing.1957

[Shiyo.3578]

Pure supports have no place in video games.

[Ashantara.8731]

On 1/21/2024 at 8:08 PM, WinterBeats.1092 said:

And all the game systems in GW2 are complicated with zero tutorials and maybe a [new] player will try out GW2 but they won't stick around as its too daunting and frustrating.

This is true. Since there has been nothing for me to do in the game right now, I decided to invest some time into my alt account, whose original purpose was merely doing the login/WV dailies and Festival dailies.

If I weren't such an experienced player, I wouldn't have had the patience for it, to be honest. GW2 was already quite annoying in that regard 11 years ago (meaning, you had to consult the Wiki about everything), but by now, so many new systems and currencies have been added to the game that it's become even more stressful to learn everything you need to know about the game in order to be able to navigate through it efficiently as a newbie.

Edited January 22 by Ashantara.8731

[kiroho.4738]

16 hours ago, Astralporing.1957 said:

Pure boon support no longer exists, Anet made sure to kill that idea when they destroyed original chrono. And since then they've made sure that alac and quick is never going to happen on the same build.

Which was a great descision.
Having only Chrono required as a class for any raid run, was awful. Same for Druid.

Oh and by the way, boon Chrono in raids always took the role of the tank, so there actually never were "pure boon support roles".  😉

 

16 hours ago, Astralporing.1957 said:

Personally, i think that specialized boon support was more healthy, and stepping away from it is one of the main reasons behind the power creep we're now having.

Having raid groups that always block 3 slots for Chrono and Druid? Sounds super healthy! Not.
Or a bit further in time having the remaining 7 slots blocked for certain builds to provide this and that unique buff. Super healthy! Not.

And please explain how creating more variety is "the main reason behind the power creep", I'm curious.
We had all these boons since HoT, some boons even got nerfed. Please go on and tell us how having more options to provide these boons are the reason behind the power creep.
Oh and don't forget to explain why powercreep was a thing long before Anet started giving boon support builds to all/more classes. Because that's the interesting one.
Sorry, that's nonesense.

 

16 hours ago, Astralporing.1957 said:

..yes, i have seen those balance patches, and let's just say i am not very fond of the ways anet changed specs to force quick or alac into them. For example, Druid imo is worse off now in its original role than it was originally. So is scourge heal. And don't let me comment on quick on warrior...

And again no explanation why they are off?
Druid is exactly the same as before. Providing Alac happens completely passively while playing.
And when talking about the original Druid, you should check the history of the Grace of the Land trait. It just switched from providing a dmg buff, to providing might to providing alac.
You wanted them in any cases, so the playstyle hasn't changed at all.

Same with heal Scourge. Before you wanted to throw as much barrier at your group as you have. Now your barrier grants alac and you want to throw as much barrier at your group as you have. The playstyle hasn't changed at all.

And again, same with Warrior. As Berserker you want to keep up your berserk mode as long as possible and spam as many bursts as you have. Now your bursts grant quickness. They playstyle remains 1:1 the same.

Please do your research.

[Astralporing.1957]

1 hour ago, kiroho.4738 said:

Which was a great descision.
Having only Chrono required as a class for any raid run, was awful. Same for Druid.

Making an alternative for chrono was a great decision. Killing chronosupport to force that alternative (which resulted in years of FB dominance) wasn't.

Making an alternative to pure support slot was a great decision. Removing a pure support option and forcing hybrid support builds instead wasn't.

Making an alternative for a certain role is a great decision. Forcibly changing classes (often removing their specific advantages) to make sure all classes can fulfill that role, not so much.

1 hour ago, kiroho.4738 said:

Having raid groups that always block 3 slots for Chrono and Druid? Sounds super healthy! Not.

Or a bit further in time having the remaining 7 slots blocked for certain builds to provide this and that unique buff. Super healthy! Not.

See above.

1 hour ago, kiroho.4738 said:

And please explain how creating more variety is "the main reason behind the power creep", I'm curious.

We had all these boons since HoT, some boons even got nerfed. Please go on and tell us how having more options to provide these boons are the reason behind the power creep.
Oh and don't forget to explain why powercreep was a thing long before Anet started giving boon support builds to all/more classes. Because that's the interesting one.
Sorry, that's nonesense.

Original Chrono was doing like 7k dps. Current "hybrid support" classes do dps on the dps slot level (30k+).  Do the math.

1 hour ago, kiroho.4738 said:

And again no explanation why they are off?

Druid is exactly the same as before. Providing Alac happens completely passively while playing.
And when talking about the original Druid, you should check the history of the Grace of the Land trait. It just switched from providing a dmg buff, to providing might to providing alac.
You wanted them in any cases, so the playstyle hasn't changed at all.

Same with heal Scourge. Before you wanted to throw as much barrier at your group as you have. Now your barrier grants alac and you want to throw as much barrier at your group as you have. The playstyle hasn't changed at all.

And again, same with Warrior. As Berserker you want to keep up your berserk mode as long as possible and spam as many bursts as you have. Now your bursts grant quickness. They playstyle remains 1:1 the same.

Please do your research.

Druid was giving might. There was not as much pressure on keeping up full 25 stacks as it is on 100% alac upkeep. You could much easily adjust your heal rotation for healing needs without disrupting everyone else's rotattions. Now you can't. Not to mention the rotation is more strict now. And there were other adjustments to the class since then as well, like that pet swap for boons abomination. Still, druids did get relatively well off compared to other specs.

Heal scourge lost its unique niche. Anet decided that it giving boons should preclude being too good at healing, and that's why they nerfed Transfusion to the ground (and changed some barriers into actual healing, which significantly diminished utility of having scourge + normal healer combo). And since shades are now giving alac, they decided to heavily nerf shade upkeep which forces inane shade spamming.

Berserker quickness is just badly designed - it's tied to actual attack rotation, which means you cannot give boons when you're not attacking. It also locks all utility skills, which is less than ideal. Yes, sure, it's not a big difference from a dps build, but it's just a byproduct of Anet constantly struggling with Warrior in general.

And there's Tempest, with Alac tied to overload, which has some major issues. Or firebrand, that constantly gets its pure dps builds suffering whenever Anet tries to adjust the support options.

All these things (and more) have been significantly covered on these forums multiple times already. They aren't new, they are well known to anyone that actually bothers to look for them.

1 hour ago, kiroho.4738 said:

Please do your research.

Yes, please, do.

[kiroho.4738]

3 hours ago, Astralporing.1957 said:

Making an alternative for chrono was a great decision. Killing chronosupport to force that alternative (which resulted in years of FB dominance) wasn't.

Support Chrono is very alive dude. It even has it's unique status by being the only espect that is able to provide both Quickness and Alacrity. .

 

3 hours ago, Astralporing.1957 said:

Making an alternative to pure support slot was a great decision. Removing a pure support option and forcing hybrid support builds instead wasn't.

That's again what players did, not Anet.
You can still play pure support or pure heal builds without problem. In WvW it's even preferred. Look at Druid again -> you can either choose the alacrity grandmaster trait, the condi dmg one or the third option which increases your healing.

 

3 hours ago, Astralporing.1957 said:

Making an alternative for a certain role is a great decision. Forcibly changing classes (often removing their specific advantages) to make sure all classes can fulfill that role, not so much.

Examples? You always claim things but barely bring up actual examples.

 

3 hours ago, Astralporing.1957 said:

Original Chrono was doing like 7k dps. Current "hybrid support" classes do dps on the dps slot level (30k+).  Do the math.

Nobody denys that power creep exists, but that's not even the point.
The point is your baseless claim which says "power creep mainly exists because Anet gave support options to all classes.

As you provided no single argument for that claim I see it as what i said before -> pure nonesense.

Power creep has nothing to do with the topic and you know that. And yet you tried to abuse it as an argument.

 

3 hours ago, Astralporing.1957 said:

Druid was giving might. There was not as much pressure on keeping up full 25 stacks as it is on 100% alac upkeep. You could much easily adjust your heal rotation for healing needs without disrupting everyone else's rotattions. Now you can't. Not to mention the rotation is more strict now. And there were other adjustments to the class since then as well, like that pet swap for boons abomination. Still, druids did get relatively well off compared to other specs.

Original Druid gave a dmg boost buff. It was changed to might later.
As for upkeeping, keeping up 100% alac is as easy as keeping up 25 might back in the days. It's extremely easy to hit duration cap while doing normal healing in CA.
You don't need to follow a "strict rotation" to reach that...

And pet swap for boons has never been necessary for Druid, so what's even your point?
Why do you start arguing with completely unrelated things?...

 

3 hours ago, Astralporing.1957 said:

Heal scourge lost its unique niche. Anet decided that it giving boons should preclude being too good at healing, and that's why they nerfed Transfusion to the ground (and changed some barriers into actual healing, which significantly diminished utility of having scourge + normal healer combo). And since shades are now giving alac, they decided to heavily nerf shade upkeep which forces inane shade spamming.

And what's that unique niche? Spamming Barrier? That's still what Heal Scourge does, dude. They just made it more viable so it's useful in more situations than Boneskinner.
Transfusion trait is absolutely fine, stop being so overdramatic...
And Shade spaming even has nothing to do with alac changes. lol. You are really grasping straws...

 

3 hours ago, Astralporing.1957 said:

Berserker quickness is just badly designed - it's tied to actual attack rotation, which means you cannot give boons when you're not attacking. It also locks all utility skills, which is less than ideal. Yes, sure, it's not a big difference from a dps build, but it's just a byproduct of Anet constantly struggling with Warrior in general.

Sure, not all quickness/alac implementations are perfect (yet), but what exactly does that have to do with your original claim that said -> "anet changed specs to force quick or alac into them".

You now even agree with me that Anet did not change Berseker at all to implement quickness. You refuted your own claim.

 

3 hours ago, Astralporing.1957 said:

And there's Tempest, with Alac tied to overload, which has some major issues. Or firebrand, that constantly gets its pure dps builds suffering whenever Anet tries to adjust the support options.

Alac Tempest ist totally fine and Firebrand not being the golden child anymore is  good as well.

 

3 hours ago, Astralporing.1957 said:

Yes, please, do.

And read properly. Thanks. 🤦‍♂️

Edited January 23 by kiroho.4738