Virt F5 rework suggestions

[IlVoovlI.4019]

Since there are no Virt patch notes and there has been no change to Virt f5 for months here are some suggestions I thought would be cool for the skill.

READ THESE RIGHT HERE AND THEN MAKE
SUGGESTIONS IN COMMENTS

Bladerush/ Psychic traversal/Blade traversal
Consume all blades to rush forward. Distance traveled extends with each blade spent. Cripples if impacts players.

Virt lacks movement abilities which are a characteristic of a roamer/duelist. Sword 3 is very slow and buggy often not hitting its target if they have swiftness or the superspeed buff. This skills promotes fast paced combat and brings Virt up to other classes like deadeye/thieves, mirage, willbender, etc who have multiple ports.

 

Psychic Unstable Bladestorm/Psionic Mindstorm
Activate to create a storm around you. Does moderate damage. Cripples for 1 seconds on hit. Last pulse applies knockdown or pull/knock back.

Remove the skill from dagger 3 and place it on the F5. Have it attached to and rotating around the player. Gives new options for dagger (movement, evade, or blindness skill) Eliminate blades being reflected back at you when you place dagger 3. Many different options for buffs or debuffs for this skill.

 

Psychics Binding/Mindbound
Fire all blades to pierce and root target into the ground. Immobilize duration increased per blade.

Immobilize is a great tool for a ranged class. There is an immobilize already in the utility with sword of decimation but the cast time and channel time allow players to simply walk out of the target area before it hits. It would also be really cool if they took the animation from sword of decimation and turned it horizontally for this skill animation.

 

Psionic prophecy/Blades threat/Ominous Daggers
Press F5 to send blades to float around enemy. Blades persist until a second press of F5 where they fire into the enemy.

Cannot generate blades while this skill is active. Can be timed with bladecall and flurry for a burst combo. Fits the psychic telekinesis theme.

 

 

READ ABOUT VIRT ISSUES:
I play power Virt in pvp and wvwvw and I think the profession has a lot of room to improve to be more competitive. I get that the class is overpowered in pve but it is a bit bland in pvp and has so much potential.
Currently Virt with no swiftness or movement speed skills acts almost like a slow-moving turret. The addition of the rifle could have remedied these issues, but it has turned out to be a support weapon. It is obvious that Virt is underpowered due to the simplicity of passives, traits and utilities. When all skills and traits have a single facet, it leads to an underpowered class. Bladeturn refrain is an example of a simple passive giving only 1 stack of aegis for a whole trait. Most Virt traits see to be focused on how to get the class to work and not how to add thematic elements/give utility.

It seems like the F5 skill was removed due to the addition of the chrono shield. I don’t think the block was that great of a skill, but it was providing enough defense to eliminate the need for a signet distortion build. It is true that there would be a ridiculous amount of blocking if they left the F5 block and released the chrono shield. The description from the wiki states Virtuosos are trained in fast paced combat which is not what sitting in block and distortion is. The class lacks utility due to the lack of depth in utility skills, simplicity of traits, the nerf to mantras, absence of debuffs, absence of evades, and the lack of clones.  The F5 skill has the opportunity to provide some utility to round out the class. Many will say that Virt is fine in the pvp wvwvw meta and that “the blocking is so OP” “so many invuln and confusion is so unfair”. But the power side of the class is really lacking. Confusion builds now are empowered more by the axe of symmetry and Akeem relic than they are by Virt profession traits and skills imo. The nerf to mantras really hurt the utility of the class and hinders the idea of fast paced combat. The current signet distortion build is almost universally hated by non Mesmer mains as well. Some of these changes could make the profession more powerful in pve but I’m sure that anet could figure out a way to balance things there as well.

 

TLDR:

Virt F5 is a forgotten profession ability and needs a rework focusing on fast paced movement/duelist combat.

[Zenith.7301]

Give back the block. There was nothing wrong with it. Virtuoso lacks clones for protection.

Edited December 27, 2023 by Zenith.7301

[IlVoovlI.4019]

1 hour ago, Zenith.7301 said:

Give back the block. There was nothing wrong with it. Virtuoso lacks clones for protection.

I don't think the block fits into the profession now that we have the chrono shield. There would be a lot of blocking going on if they reverted the block change and there is an opportunity to create a more Virt themed ability imo. It is true that Virt lacks a lot of the utility other Memser professions gain from clones. 

[Lincolnbeard.1735]

SoMe sPecS dOn'T nEeD To bE gOoD fOr PvP, lEavE ViRt aLoNe.

I like the Psionic prophecy/Blades threat/Ominous Daggers but only if you can still generate blades, that sweet burst.

[ShadowKatt.6740]

Virt F5? What is that one again...hold on....oh. Bladeturn Requiem. It's one of THOSE threads again.

As a general rule I don't play Virtuoso because Clones > Blades, so I don't have a lot of thoughts on this. What I can say is that I think Bladeturn Requiem is....weird. F1-4 are all ranged abilities, while F5 is a PBAoE. I suppose the first question to ask is Is it supposed to be an offensive or defensive ability? And don't say both because it can be used in any situation, that's a stupid answer. Is this meant to be more offensive or defensive. Now the way I see it, we mesmers? We be squishy. Comes with the territory. We don't wear heavy armor, we don't get the big boosts to toughness and vitality as we level, we be the squishies. So as I see it, Bladeturn Requiem is a defensive ability, like a porcupine. Don't come close to me or I'm gonna spike you. As such, I think it should function that way. Having the whirling, spinning ring of blades is fine, but it should be more I think. It needs to pin, cripple, and bleed whatever's inside the radius so that it can punish them for so foolishly entering into the AoE so close to the mesmer. It should make any warrior or touch ranger think twice about going after a Virtuoso. It doesn't need a block when you have Distortion on F4 on demand. If you want to block, block. If you want to punish, that's what F5 is for.

Buuuuuuuuuuuuuuut then we have a problem. The reason why F5 is in the state it is is because people will use it offensively. Make it punishing enough that no one wants to get near you, and people will JUMP INTO a big fight just so they can use it to punish people....and then presumably die right afterwards BECAUSE MESMER SQUISHY. Actually kinda hate that they never ported over Death Penalties AND they got rid of armor damage because I really think there needs to be some punishment for stupidity in the game, but that's a separate issue I suppose. In terms of what to do with Bladeturn Requiem, I think it's fine the way it is, it just needs to be....more. Or just scrap the whole thing and redesign F5 to do something else, make it is a projected AoE instead of a PBAoE and then no one can complain that it doesn't block anymore or whatever.

[SeTect.5918]

8 hours ago, ShadowKatt.6740 said:

I suppose the first question to ask is Is it supposed to be an offensive or defensive ability? And don't say both because it can be used in any situation, that's a stupid answer. Is this meant to be more offensive or defensive?

Its currently only offensive. It used to block attacks but currently it only deals damage and nothing else.

8 hours ago, ShadowKatt.6740 said:

Now the way I see it, we mesmers? We be squishy. Comes with the territory. We don't wear heavy armor, we don't get the big boosts to toughness and vitality as we level, we be the squishies.

Dont think so.
Mirage has kinda high dodge uptime, you are invulnerable for a lot time of any fight and has acces to perma regeneration. The clones also protect it pretty much.
Chrono only has access to clones but it also has access to far more self boons compared to virtuoso.
I agree mesmer is kinda squishy (except mirage) but both chrono and mirage have it better compared to virtuoso in terms of self-defense in PvE.

8 hours ago, ShadowKatt.6740 said:

It doesn't need a block when you have Distortion on F4 on demand. If you want to block, block. If you want to punish, that's what F5 is for.

Virtuoso doesnt have Distortion on F4 on demand. You can only use F4 if you have any blades up already. The duration is also based on the number of blades. 1 blade is only 0.75 seconds.

8 hours ago, ShadowKatt.6740 said:

I think it's fine the way it is, it just needs to be....more. Or just scrap the whole thing and redesign F5 to do something else, make it is a projected AoE instead of a PBAoE and then no one can complain that it doesn't block anymore or whatever.

Agree, kinda strange f1-4 is ranged and f5 is not.

[Ravenwulfe.5360]

The only thing about Virt I find weird is the blade mechanics feels like it should have been the mirages with ambushes and the Virt should have been more bard like with songs and such. Otherwise I don't find anything wrong with Virtuoso personally, but I am also focusing on when Rifle comes out and making a support Chrono build. I use Virt for doing solo and open world PvE for the most part though.

[Mell.4873]

It honestly it just needs more damage. If you want it to be a defensive ability just use Bountiful Disillusionment to get resistance. 

You also have to remember so many traits now work on shatter and Virtuoso essentially has a free cast of F5 compared to all other mesmer elites. No one is about to waste Continuum Split to get a Restorative Illusions heal for example. 

Then again I would not be against inspirating distortion and mental defense also including Bladeturn Requiem

Edited December 28, 2023 by Mell.4873

[Lincolnbeard.1735]

5 hours ago, Mell.4873 said:

It honestly it just needs more damage. If you want it to be a defensive ability just use Bountiful Disillusionment to get resistance. 

 

More melee damage on a spec that is suppose to never be in melee range.

[ShadowKatt.6740]

1 hour ago, Lincolnbeard.1735 said:

More melee damage on a spec that is suppose to never be in melee range.

Which as I stated above makes sense if you look at it from a defensive position. But if you give someone a defensive skill inevitably they'll try to use it as an offensive skill, so...

[Ashantara.8731]

Make F5 a ground target/stationary skill so that we don't have to stay put in melee range while the skill is still active. It is very impractical for a ranged non-tanky elite spec.

Example: Dagda. You trigger F5 at the wrong time and then have to dodge out of the boss' AoE circle, losing out on damage.

Edited December 28, 2023 by Ashantara.8731

[Lincolnbeard.1735]

2 hours ago, ShadowKatt.6740 said:

Which as I stated above makes sense if you look at it from a defensive position. But if you give someone a defensive skill inevitably they'll try to use it as an offensive skill, so...

Even as a defensive skill and considering that the damage is buffed, it will still suck. It's a design issue not a numbers one.
Best option is to redesign it. The OPs ideas (except the second) are solid ones on how to do it.

[ShadowKatt.6740]

6 minutes ago, Lincolnbeard.1735 said:

Even as a defensive skill and considering that the damage is buffed, it will still suck. It's a design issue not a numbers one.
Best option is to redesign it. The OPs ideas (except the second) are solid ones on how to do it.

Now see, that's what I don't get. Why do you think it would suck?

The way I see it, and granted I am a bit special sometimes (they make me wear a helmet when I go outside), when we're fighting something and we see the Golden Circle of Doom, we get out. If we're out fighting and either you see the Red Ring of Death whether that's from an NPC or another player, we get out. That's where I see Virt F5. I think it's the kind of thing that if you're fighting, say, a thief and it really wants to stab you in the eyeball, you should be able to pop F5 and either kill the thief if it tries or at least go down together, and then you two can fling downed skills at each other until someone comes by and finishes you both because people in WvW are assholes. But you get the idea. F5 should be something, at least to me, that other people fear. ANd while I do think it might be more fitting if it was a more offensive, ranged ability.....I mean, we already have that in F1-3, so we don't really need another. Even the movement ability the OP suggested is just throwing yourself into danger, which seems like a supremely stupid thing to do for a mesmer.

[IlVoovlI.4019]

8 hours ago, Lincolnbeard.1735 said:

More melee damage on a spec that is suppose to never be in melee range.

this is the big issue with the skill 

[Lincolnbeard.1735]

6 hours ago, ShadowKatt.6740 said:

Now see, that's what I don't get. Why do you think it would suck?

The way I see it, and granted I am a bit special sometimes (they make me wear a helmet when I go outside), when we're fighting something and we see the Golden Circle of Doom, we get out. If we're out fighting and either you see the Red Ring of Death whether that's from an NPC or another player, we get out. That's where I see Virt F5. I think it's the kind of thing that if you're fighting, say, a thief and it really wants to stab you in the eyeball, you should be able to pop F5 and either kill the thief if it tries or at least go down together, and then you two can fling downed skills at each other until someone comes by and finishes you both because people in WvW are assholes. But you get the idea. F5 should be something, at least to me, that other people fear. ANd while I do think it might be more fitting if it was a more offensive, ranged ability.....I mean, we already have that in F1-3, so we don't really need another. Even the movement ability the OP suggested is just throwing yourself into danger, which seems like a supremely stupid thing to do for a mesmer.

Don't know if you played GW1. There was this meme called Wammo, warriors with monk secundary, they used two skills that gave regen and off they go thinking they could tank everything, of course they ended up dead.
False sense of security.
F5 even buffed will give this same sense to people new to virt.

If the enemy got to you, you reposition, you don't tank the damage praying that people back off since they're getting damage.
Even when virt got released people said multiple times ANerf to get the damage portion off bladeturn requiem since it served no purpose.

The movement skill OP suggested is either to run away or to chase, well, I would change the wording, so that it leaves a trail similar to WB and that trail cripples, instead of the impact.
 

[Mell.4873]

Virtuoso is a Duelist so having a high damage close range skill will detour Melee from attacking you. If you happen to walking into alot of projectile blocks you still have one option to shatter aswell. Honestly is a great skill. 

[ShadowKatt.6740]

1 hour ago, Lincolnbeard.1735 said:

Don't know if you played GW1. There was this meme called Wammo, warriors with monk secundary, they used two skills that gave regen and off they go thinking they could tank everything, of course they ended up dead.
False sense of security.
F5 even buffed will give this same sense to people new to virt.

If the enemy got to you, you reposition, you don't tank the damage praying that people back off since they're getting damage.
Even when virt got released people said multiple times ANerf to get the damage portion off bladeturn requiem since it served no purpose.

The movement skill OP suggested is either to run away or to chase, well, I would change the wording, so that it leaves a trail similar to WB and that trail cripples, instead of the impact.
 

Not only did I play Guild Wars 1, I played a Wammo...poorly. Actually I just took monk for the reusable rez, but I was still a really bad warrior. Something about getting punched in the face....

Anyway, I can't argue with the idea of respositioning. Being that I main staff, Phantasmal Retreat is one of my favorite skills which is why it bothers me when people suggest that it should be Phantasmal Advance, or some kind of dual-phase skill that lets you teleport in and back, which makes no sense to me at all. Why a mesmer would ever want to charge INTO a melee is just beyond me. Just because the mesmer HAS melee weapons doesn't mean it should be your go-to strategy. So if we could turn F5 into some kind of retreat skill with maybe a persistent AOE trail behind it, I'm all on board. Sounds great to me.

I just think it's a little unrealistic. Not that it would be hard to do, but getting the devs to even consider reworking the skill. Swapping numbers and conditions around is easy, reworking the skill would take....well, actual work, and I just don't see it happening. Trying to make lemonade here.

[ZephidelGRS.9520]

I find the original design quite elegant, being both a defensive and an offensive skill made it flexibly interesting to choose what to use.

Then for whatever asinine reason, they added Distortion back on F4 which is strictly a superior version to Requiem in every way and blows it out of the water. Oh yeah, it was the little PvP circle who cried a river and demanded that change because unblockable moves are a thing.

Now if they really want to keep the original design, just add reflect to the F5. It'll still be mostly an offensive skill to push for more damage, but with the added option to use it defensively.

Edited December 29, 2023 by ZephidelGRS.9520

[Lincolnbeard.1735]

@ShadowKatt.6740

Porting in and out skills would be awesome for mirror blade burst or even condi burst, when I played condi I used to illusionary leap into phantasmal retreat and f2 for 3 clones shatter.

Mirage advance would be great if it was instant, it's the cast time that kills the skill. I tried to used it with sigil of quickness on weapon swap, it kind of works but it's too much of an hassle having to open with second weapon set, get into combat and all.

Edited December 29, 2023 by Lincolnbeard.1735

[SeTect.5918]

On 12/29/2023 at 1:59 AM, Mell.4873 said:

Virtuoso is a Duelist so having a high damage close range skill will detour Melee from attacking you. 

This would work if the skill would actually have high damage. 

Go on build editor, set it to wvw, put full berserker gear on and look at the comparison of F1 shatter and F5 shatter. You will see that F1 does 5x 512 damage within 1 second on a 12 second cooldown with 5 blades. F5 does 5x 186 damage within 5 second on a 35 second Cooldown (also 5 blades). 

This skill (F5) does roughly 36% of the damage you deal with F1. It does not stop melee classes from attacking you on close range at all due to its low damage and long time to inflict all potential damage (5 seconds) which even then is only 36% of F1 damage. 

Edited December 30, 2023 by SeTect.5918

[IlVoovlI.4019]

19 hours ago, ZephidelGRS.9520 said:

I find the original design quite elegant, being both a defensive and an offensive skill made it flexibly interesting to choose what to use.

Then for whatever asinine reason, they added Distortion back on F4 which is strictly a superior version to Requiem in every way and blows it out of the water. Oh yeah, it was the little PvP circle who cried a river and demanded that change because unblockable moves are a thing.

Now if they really want to keep the original design, just add reflect to the F5. It'll still be mostly an offensive skill to push for more damage, but with the added option to use it defensively.

Even if they reverted to its original design Virt is still at the bottom of the ranged meta compared to Harb and deadeye. Even Dragon Hunter does as much or more damage with True Shot then a fully stocked  bladesong harmony.  The blocking and distortion are defensive mechs on a profession with a lot of reflect-able damage i just dont se them as OP. 

[Mell.4873]

5 hours ago, SeTect.5918 said:

This would work if the skill would actually have high damage. 

Go on build editor, set it to wvw, put full berserker gear on and look at the comparison of F1 shatter and F5 shatter. You will see that F1 does 5x 512 damage within 1 second on a 12 second cooldown with 5 blades. F5 does 5x 186 damage within 5 second on a 35 second Cooldown (also 5 blades). 

This skill (F5) does roughly 36% of the damage you deal with F1. It does not stop melee classes from attacking you on close range at all due to its low damage and long time to inflict all potential damage (5 seconds) which even then is only 36% of F1 damage. 

Hense why I suggest a damage boost to the skill, maybe twice the damage since it is a PBAoE (point blank).  

Along with that, making it stronger under Inspiration with F4 traits counting on F5. This would in turn make it more defensive for those after that route. 

[IlVoovlI.4019]

21 hours ago, SeTect.5918 said:

This would work if the skill would actually have high damage. 

Go on build editor, set it to wvw, put full berserker gear on and look at the comparison of F1 shatter and F5 shatter. You will see that F1 does 5x 512 damage within 1 second on a 12 second cooldown with 5 blades. F5 does 5x 186 damage within 5 second on a 35 second Cooldown (also 5 blades). 

This skill (F5) does roughly 36% of the damage you deal with F1. It does not stop melee classes from attacking you on close range at all due to its low damage and long time to inflict all potential damage (5 seconds) which even then is only 36% of F1 damage. 

this is why the skill needs a rework. It currently hits for 2k against a stationary golem if all ticks hit and crit.