Silent Surf CM is too messy - so messy that even good players avoid it

[Trevor Boyer.6524]

I'll just sum it up without a big text wall:

1. It honestly ebbs into your time doing fractal runs. People like to avoid it posting for "Old CMs/T4s/Recs" because it is a time hassle for what it's worth.
2. Even for groups with Nightmare Aspect titles, the mechanics are wonky enough to where they are unpredictable enough, to where parties still wipe from singular mistakes from unexpected blunders in small movements. This is the kind of stuff that elongates the completion of the fractal run, which is why many players just like to avoid it. Vallun had said in his youtube video on this CM Fractal that "Silent Surf CM is more punishing than it is difficult" and I completely agree with that statement. It's not that the mechanics are overly difficult to learn, it's that they are incredibly punishing if you make a single mistake. Due to how sporadic some of these mechanics are depending on small movements, it is easy for things to go wrong in very unexpected ways. Good examples would be tethers bugging during 66% and 33% phases, players getting weird failed jumps to or from platforms due to lag or w/e it is that causes it, and then the party has to reset the boss fight. These are the kinds of reasons why many people just avoid this fractal even on normal mode, because it is too messy.
3. While trying to help groups achieve Nightmare Aspect, it's just ridiculously difficult to get clears in this fractal without a single person dying. I've been playing GW2 for 12 years, running CM fractals nearly every night since they've existed, and I've never had such problems pushing people through completions as I do with Nightmare Aspect. It's like you have to just get lucky. Even most public LFG Nightmare Aspect groups will still have a death before the fractal is complete, due to the kind of wonky unexpected stuff going wrong that I've described here. You can for all intents & purposes be doing the mechanics correctly, and then something goes wrong, like a crossed tether or a weird short jump on grappling hook or a failed mushroom bounce. Then the party wipes when they were doing everything correctly and they have to start over the longest boss fight, again. They have to click and load out of the fractal and load back in and kill little monsters and listen to NPCs again, before they can even get down to attempt the boss, again. While trying to introduce new players or even teach older players how to do it, I find this sequence of resetting to be pushing players away due to the sheer boredom & frustration of the wait time in between tries. This is messy and unnecessary.

We have a fractal that people are avoiding because it's messy and they feel like it's a waste of time.

This guy here writes a thread discussing other messy problems within 100 CM -> 100cm is still a buggy mess - Instanced Group Content - Guild Wars 2 Forums

 

A few things that could be done to enhance the quality of life of the Silent Surf fractal:

1. Clean up the buggy stuff. It's an absolute mess.
2. When you activate the challenge mote, it should immediately take you to the boss platform where you can there click the body on the ground to initiate the boss fight. There is no need for the time consuming NPC talk and tiny mob fights. The boss fight itself is long enough.
3. The achievement mechanics for titles like Nightmare Aspect need to be overhauled. Right now, if a person dies, you have click exit the fractal, load into the lobby, go back into the portal, load the fractal again, listen to NPCs talk, fight tiny mobs, and go back to the boss for another try. This is an unnecessary wait time in between attempts. It's like if you went to the batting cages to practice your swing and there was a 5 minute wait in between each ball that the machine pitched to you. The way it should work, is that if the party fails and has to /gg, the achievement eligibility resets itself so you can attempt a no death run again, without needing to leave the fractal. <- This is just the way that it should be.

Edited January 9 by Trevor Boyer.6524

[SoftFootpaws.9134]

i think alot of these problems come back to the normal mode, which uses mechanics that should never be used in fractals to begin with (like bundles). i still don't understand why they didn't just put zip lines between the platforms instead of a bundle and mushrooms.

 

i feel like the jumping puzzle itself is also poorly made, and doesn't fit any other jp design philosophy in the game.

Edited January 10 by SoftFootpaws.9134

[Trevor Boyer.6524]

38 minutes ago, SoftFootpaws.9134 said:

i think alot of these problems come back to the normal mode, which uses mechanics that should never be used in fractals to begin with (like bundles). i still don't understand why they didn't just put zip lines between the platforms instead of a bundle and mushrooms.

This right here ^ they ought to overhaul it and just put in ziplines.

I wouldn't mind the bundles/mushrooms so much if weird buggy stuff didn't trigger so frequently with them. You have with the harpoon grappling hook, it'll just short jump you for no reason at all. You aim directly at the center of a platform where you're supposed to, it LOOKS like it connects, but then you randomly get pulled like only 300 range and fall and die. Stuff like that. I have no idea if it's ping that causes it or what the problem is but it's messy. Then the mushrooms have similar weird problems. You'll jump on a mushroom and somehow the jump gets bugged and it can toss you in any sort of weird direction. It does this same stuff in pvp in Sky Hammer with the jump pads there as well.

Just put in ziplines would definitely be the answer for these particular problems. Those phases are hard enough getting back & forth avoiding the eye to begin with, or taking tether for supports, it doesn't need buggy travel mechanics on top of it.

[SidewayS.3789]

Because this so call Fractal, wasn't a Fractal to begin with.It was a strike from the very beginning but since they realised they need to create a fractal too, they took this Strike, beat it to a pulp to fit into a round form, even though it had a square form since day 1. I am doing it daily with my static, and each day we find new bugs. It's hilarious but you guys need to understand, the team who made 99,98,97 CMs are LOOOONG gone, so expect round forms to fit square forms.

[TexZero.7910]

On 1/10/2024 at 12:03 AM, Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

Just put in ziplines would definitely be the answer for these particular problems. Those phases are hard enough getting back & forth avoiding the eye to begin with, or taking tether for supports, it doesn't need buggy travel mechanics on top of it.

Ziplines are just as buggy. If you ever have a framrate hitch you'll notice this as it will kick you from the zipline early as serverside the timer say's you're at the end but thanks to that nice hitch clientside, you're short.

 

[Tdub.7628]

@Trevor Boyer.6524

I run the CM every morning with random pugs and don't have issues.

If you want to get better, I can reach out and run it more often with you. As long as your on an NA server.

[Phyb.6704]

The whole packs and zip lines are really.... really easy. I do not get how its so hard for many people. The only kitten off is jumping down to the final boss and clipping the edge of that one kitten branch and having an insta death. It rarely happens and is probably one of the most lame moments in gw2. 

[Vinceman.4572]

- People avoiding even 100 normal mode because they are too stu_id to learn, adapt/adjust to the encounter. I see so many groups using cc on normal mode and nobody can explain to me why they are doing it - a.k.a. not having any clue at all. They cc as if there is no morning because - yeah, they learned that from so many other stuff where it is necessary or gives a (huge) advantage..

- People kill themselves alone while being the closest target to the boss and they are constantly facetanking his damage till downstate. I see it every run.

- People not bringing out axes and kill themselves, kill others who don't react or make the positioning of the group an absolute mess. 

- Healers rezzing + laying axes onto downed players or healers jumping to platforms in normal mode outside of splits resulting in lots of hp pressure on the remaining player. Most of them cannot handle it. I often cry in front of my monitor when I'm last man standing as pure glass cannon. As a healer: just dont go over, only on 66% and 33% but even then there's no need to go to the platforms. In NM it's no kill mechanic and the damage dealt can be healed within one single second.

--> If you want to help a clueless pug bring regeneration/protection with you even as a dps player. You'll carry that group hard because the encounter himself is no dps race.  

 

wonky mechanics NO! effing NO! 
I ran 100 CM on a daily basis, before patch (title was messy but we got it even with the problems) and after and I constantly never ever failed to grapple over and jump back. That only happens if you are too nervous, bad or something else.
It is easy: You get the tether? Just walk to the edge of the platform - do it properly and really stand at the edge, not 1-3 yards/metres before. Point the indicator in the middle of the platform which means inside the phantom (=mob/enemy). It will never fail! Take your time over there, kill it. Turn around and just jump into the middle of the mushroom. Again: It will never fail!

100 CM is easier as 99 CM; a lot easier. But I understand why some people think it's the other way round. Lots of groups already failing 99 CM and still run their head against the wall without realizing what needs to be done. They sometimes get away with it with luck and think this should be the same with other encounters. But: 100 CM doesn't work that way. You just need to play the mechanics there and it's a breeze. If you just mindlessly trying to bring as much as damage as possible stop that. You don't need hardcore dps outside of high kp or speed run groups. The encounter just wants that you play the indicators. Do it and you will have success. Take the damage pressure away from your group. 

100 CM is fine aside from being boring as hell. If you can't get the title your group is just bad, nothing else. I had several title runs without even attempting it on purpose and with only low kp players. 

[MercurialKuroSludge.8974]

Honestly ye, Grapple feels like a misplay issue, it rarely happens.
People like to complain about the NM JP being wonky, but its very easy for a person new to the Fractal to never use skill 3, and I still see ppl fail at 
1. Getting off the zipline early for better control.
2. Actually use the Parachute like a Glider for Horizontal movement.
Also, if a pug healer gets Tether on 66% NM, thats the dps players being dumb, relying on ppl they cant trust to do dps on healer gear, instead of just body blocking the Tether like on Sunqua.

That being said...the adds do behave wonky, and the only reason we ignore them right now, is because the improper design allows us to.
If the devs changed how failing cc punishes the fight, the bugs that do exist wud be a lot more problematic, and they mostly Aspects/Adds related.

[Phyb.6704]

41 minutes ago, MercurialKuroSludge.8974 said:

Honestly ye, Grapple feels like a misplay issue, it rarely happens.
People like to complain about the NM JP being wonky, but its very easy for a person new to the Fractal to never use skill 3, and I still see ppl fail at 
1. Getting off the zipline early for better control.
2. Actually use the Parachute like a Glider for Horizontal movement.
Also, if a pug healer gets Tether on 66% NM, thats the dps players being dumb, relying on ppl they cant trust to do dps on healer gear, instead of just body blocking the Tether like on Sunqua.

That being said...the adds do behave wonky, and the only reason we ignore them right now, is because the improper design allows us to.
If the devs changed how failing cc punishes the fight, the bugs that do exist wud be a lot more problematic, and they mostly Aspects/Adds related.

Its all pretty easy. Gw2 players get used to having no need for tanks which means watching agro is not really a thing 99% of the time. Any non dps support like quickness is also not needed in 99% of the game so when you do need a healer many just run around with no care for the healer. Move out of a druids line, scourge shades and so on. Playing without a healer means tons of dodging and mobility. Playing with a healer means actually being aware you have heals and to not dodge out of the heals.

Does not help that with a very average druid or scourge you can ignore all the mechanics on t1 and t2 and then t3 you just gota stand on the edge for the big burst hit. Until t4 its really scuff. 

[SoftFootpaws.9134]

i don't think its hard to understand that the movement mechanics are ping-dependant, and if it works good for you then your ping is probably below 100ms? unfortunately that doesn't include the majority of the playerbase, especially from other countries.

 

its different for stuff like jumping mushrooms because that's open-world stuff; this is instanced content where you can kill your team by failing a jump. the ziplines are also still ping-dependant, but not nearly as severe as the bundle and would work better in most situattions.

 

try fighting an enemy with the warrior's greatsword skills on a ping of 100ms+ in pvp or wvw then you will see the problem.

Edited January 28 by SoftFootpaws.9134

[Zanne.3540]

I actually quit playing gw2 because of fractal 100. I love doing fractals but have literally tried this fractal over 100 times now without ever finishing it. It pisses me off every time I play it. The whole thing sucks mostly the last boss. I have watched a few videos on it and know what to do but group always wipes a few times then every quits pissed off. But whatever arena nets loss, if they won't remove or tune down this fractal. I am what is considered a whale and spent a lot of money on gw2. I had a few friends who are the same that spend a lot on the games they love, but I already convinced them all to not return because of this issue. So Anet you lost out on 4 expansion sales and thousands in other purchases. I figure they might listen if we just stop spending. No idea what dumb kitten dev came up with the idea that fractal 100 was a good idea. I don't give more money to such stupidity and bad design. Just like I don't pay bad artists for kitten art. Sorry arena net but good bye, I am not having one more night ruined by this dumb kittening fractal. Always leaves a sour taste and games are to be fun not kitten me off after a long day of work. 

[AliamRationem.5172]

It's exactly like you say.  I have nightmare aspect, I love all of the other CMs and do them pretty regularly, but this fractal just isn't very enjoyable and it definitely feels like a roll of the dice because the only way it's acceptable time vs. reward is if you 1-shot.  If anything goes wrong and you have to start over, the reward simply isn't worth the time investment.

Even then I still might feel inclined to go through with it if it were as fun and interesting as the other fractals, but it really isn't.  The mechanics are annoying and they just repeat the same things over and over until you manage to whittle down the boss's gigantic healthbar.  I don't understand the obsession with mechanics that force you to constantly move away from the boss.  It feels ridiculously punishing to melee builds and they keep using more and more of this in newer designs.  Enough already!   You didn't need to rely on these cheap tricks to design interesting fractal bosses before.  98 and 99 CM are some of the best boss fights in the game with lots of phases and mechanics, but they didn't have to kick melee in the nuts repeatedly to make it happen.

The eyes.  Yeah, they're punishing.  They happen so frequently and if you fail you die.  It's easy to miss one out of the hundred you need to avoid during this fight, even if you know the mechanics.  I don't know what to do about that.  Making them not kill you would trivialize this fight to the point where you couldn't call it a CM anymore.

[Vinceman.4572]

8 hours ago, Zanne.3540 said:

I actually quit playing gw2 because of fractal 100. I love doing fractals but have literally tried this fractal over 100 times now without ever finishing it. It pisses me off every time I play it. The whole thing sucks mostly the last boss. I have watched a few videos on it and know what to do but group always wipes a few times then every quits pissed off. But whatever arena nets loss, if they won't remove or tune down this fractal. I am what is considered a whale and spent a lot of money on gw2. I had a few friends who are the same that spend a lot on the games they love, but I already convinced them all to not return because of this issue. So Anet you lost out on 4 expansion sales and thousands in other purchases. I figure they might listen if we just stop spending. No idea what dumb kitten dev came up with the idea that fractal 100 was a good idea. I don't give more money to such stupidity and bad design. Just like I don't pay bad artists for kitten art. Sorry arena net but good bye, I am not having one more night ruined by this dumb kittening fractal. Always leaves a sour taste and games are to be fun not kitten me off after a long day of work. 

If this post is serious I think you should really step away and find your luck elsewhere. If one single fractal is getting you to quit the whole game your zenith with GW2 is over. My, oh my... There are enough groups in lfg that dodge 100 when it is daily so you just run 2 dailies + recs with them and all is fine. Yeah, I think your problem lies deeper.
Today 100 was daily and my group was destroying the boss in normal mode. 3-4 downstates but there was never any need to help rezzing. It was a boring breeze and as always easy gold.
I repeat myself: If your group is struggling bring regeneration and/or protection and it'll make the final encounter way easier.

7 hours ago, AliamRationem.5172 said:

The eyes.  Yeah, they're punishing.  They happen so frequently and if you fail you die.  It's easy to miss one out of the hundred you need to avoid during this fight, even if you know the mechanics.  I don't know what to do about that.  Making them not kill you would trivialize this fight to the point where you couldn't call it a CM anymore.

What to do about them? Just run to the edge of the platform and look outside. You don't even need to walk close to the edge but if players are not familiar with the range they should play it safe and walk more. Even if the boss is on one of the outer platforms it is very easy to avoid his eye. Just look away from him. That even works while standing right next to a phantom with eye. There is always room & safe space to look away. People are jut not clever enough and panic way too hard. 
In addition to that I barely see CM groups fail (at least in EU) and if one player dies we are almost always able to rez over time or people bring revive orbs with them anyway. As I said this CM is boring and easy once you have mastered it. 

[Nimris.3781]

16 hours ago, Vinceman.4572 said:

As I said this CM is boring and easy once you have mastered it. 

this pretty much sums up cm100 current state, i could understand complains before Soto as bugs were causing issues with timings, boss skills (eye) not matching animation, quickness/regen/alac breaking phasing, rabbit/tentacle on islands etc.

but now? sorry to say this but anyone having problems with clearing cm100 is just facing 'skill issues'.

i came hare from WoW and this was the first thing that shock me, people constantly ignore mechanics. i guess its because high-end players tend to skip mechanics with dps, while also game allows for players to just fail multiple mechanics few times and still succesfully kill boss, so unless its instant party wipe, just get few downstates and ress them back.

this mindset wouldnt work in WoW or FFxiv end-game where mistakes cost you life or even instant wipe, but for gw2 you can recover from almost anything so why bother with mechanics? now people with this mindest go to cm100 where mistakes do cost you life and are surprised that they constantly fail this boss...

 

i totaly agree that this fractal is not the best, too much spread mechanics, numbers mechanic should be x2 faster, under 33% eye over number mechanic is stupid, tethers shouldnt sometimes bug at 66% and so on, but overall its not hard after you do it few times and good players are definitely not avoiding it.

[Nephalem.8921]

On 1/29/2024 at 12:46 AM, SoftFootpaws.9134 said:

i don't think its hard to understand that the movement mechanics are ping-dependant, and if it works good for you then your ping is probably below 100ms? unfortunately that doesn't include the majority of the playerbase, especially from other countries.

 

its different for stuff like jumping mushrooms because that's open-world stuff; this is instanced content where you can kill your team by failing a jump. the ziplines are also still ping-dependant, but not nearly as severe as the bundle and would work better in most situattions.

 

try fighting an enemy with the warrior's greatsword skills on a ping of 100ms+ in pvp or wvw then you will see the problem.

All these things should be client side. Movement in general is clientside. that's why you can teleport hack in the game.

[Phyb.6704]

How about we change the topic. 
Silent surf cm has kitten rewards for the effort and time required to clear it. Please give better rewards if something is going to have a cluster of mechanics and the hp pool of 10 snorlax. 

Even normal silent surf takes far too long because of the hp. It needs better rewards.
The problem why its avoided is rewards..... its not enough to justify the time and effort. It is the same problem as gyala delve. 

[Nephalem.8921]

3 hours ago, ohericoseo.4316 said:

How about we change the topic. 
Silent surf cm has kitten rewards for the effort and time required to clear it. Please give better rewards if something is going to have a cluster of mechanics and the hp pool of 10 snorlax. 

Even normal silent surf takes far too long because of the hp. It needs better rewards.
The problem why its avoided is rewards..... its not enough to justify the time and effort. It is the same problem as gyala delve. 

Silent surf takes only slightly longer than sunqua peak. A good group can clear it in 5min and it could be faster without that pointless rp in the beginning. it is the easiest cm that can still bug out and wipe you. an hp nerf would increase the bug frequency.

They nerfed the normal mode hp hard and it just dies. Barely any groups skip it on eu server. Is this a classic na problem?

[MercurialKuroSludge.8974]

34 minutes ago, Nephalem.8921 said:

Silent surf takes only slightly longer than sunqua peak. A good group can clear it in 5min and it could be faster without that pointless rp in the beginning. it is the easiest cm that can still bug out and wipe you. an hp nerf would increase the bug frequency.

They nerfed the normal mode hp hard and it just dies. Barely any groups skip it on eu server. Is this a classic na problem?

They only nerfed CM HP, which they shouldn't have, not NM.

Is this reading issue a classic "EU player has too much ego" problem?

Edited February 6 by MercurialKuroSludge.8974

[Nephalem.8921]

56 minutes ago, MercurialKuroSludge.8974 said:

They only nerfed CM HP, which they shouldn't have, not NM.

Is this reading issue a classic "EU player has too much ego" problem?

Then only cm got nerfed hard. normal mode was never a problem to begin with. 15m hp or something while you have access to a 50% outgoing dmg buff during the fight.

its a bad fight but it isn't bad because its too long. It is still bugged. rewards are fine.

[Aaron Forestman.4758]

12 hours ago, Nephalem.8921 said:

Then only cm got nerfed hard. normal mode was never a problem to begin with. 15m hp or something while you have access to a 50% outgoing dmg buff during the fight.

its a bad fight but it isn't bad because its too long. It is still bugged. rewards are fine.

The rewards aren't fine. It's the only fractal CM that doesn't reward an ascended ring or salvage kit for completion. By far the most annoying, compared to the others that are some of the most interesting and dynamic fights in the game, and for all that you get worse rewards than all the other CMs.

[Phyb.6704]

On 2/5/2024 at 4:39 PM, Nephalem.8921 said:

Silent surf takes only slightly longer than sunqua peak. A good group can clear it in 5min and it could be faster without that pointless rp in the beginning. it is the easiest cm that can still bug out and wipe you. an hp nerf would increase the bug frequency.

They nerfed the normal mode hp hard and it just dies. Barely any groups skip it on eu server. Is this a classic na problem?

Ehhh. None of the fractals really give that "amazing" reward for long fights to really be worth it tbh. Sanqua is a longer one but I find it more because of mechanics. Normal mode examples would be.... Melee chasing the boss around or her going immune to damage at times. Or waiting behind a rock. CM Has even more. Surf however with a scourge or druid you can ignore basically all mechanics. It is a horrible fight that only takes time because of the large hp pool. It is garbo otherwise. 
Long fractals either because of trash, mechanics or large hp pools do not reward enough to justify doing them outside of a daily chest. 

Would we really care about it being comlicated, challenging, long, ect..... if it gave good rewards to justify the work / time ? No. 

[Nephalem.8921]

2 hours ago, ohericoseo.4316 said:

Ehhh. None of the fractals really give that "amazing" reward for long fights to really be worth it tbh. Sanqua is a longer one but I find it more because of mechanics. Normal mode examples would be.... Melee chasing the boss around or her going immune to damage at times. Or waiting behind a rock. CM Has even more. Surf however with a scourge or druid you can ignore basically all mechanics. It is a horrible fight that only takes time because of the large hp pool. It is garbo otherwise. 
Long fractals either because of trash, mechanics or large hp pools do not reward enough to justify doing them outside of a daily chest. 

Would we really care about it being comlicated, challenging, long, ect..... if it gave good rewards to justify the work / time ? No. 

Most fractal hp pools are too low. the only exception is silent surf.

Sunqua normal has so low hp that you can phase her on side without much effort.

The cm fights are very worth it gold wise. What do you mean "outside of a daily chest"? Do you want to farm them over and over? 

[Myror.7521]

Wtf are all this "its too messy" kind of thing..... this endboss is just straight up easy to kill.....

Only thing you need to remember is:

Not look at white eyes.

Don't let red fields Spawn in your group

At 33% and 66% go though Islands and kill adds

After 33% ignore Island mechanics and just keep doing tha rest of the mechanics above

 

Alsooo if anyone should die.... you can easily handrezz him in this kind of fractal

 

For real its nothing too crazy xD

Edited February 9 by Myror.7521
I think the big Red circle group spread mechanic explains itself xd

[Phyb.6704]

22 hours ago, Nephalem.8921 said:

Most fractal hp pools are too low. the only exception is silent surf.

Sunqua normal has so low hp that you can phase her on side without much effort.

The cm fights are very worth it gold wise. What do you mean "outside of a daily chest"? Do you want to farm them over and over? 

Yes most fractal hp pools are low. And yes this does make it boring since you can burn through ignoring mechanics and phases.

Too low? No.

The rewards are barely worth spending the time it takes to down the smaller hp pools and less trash. The increase in rewards for cm is not really that large of a increase to IMO justify the extra time and effort if I was to be going for -- most / highest -- value rewards for time / effort. 
You can get much higher volume and value of rewards with less effort and time doing other content. Sadly the "fun" aspect only goes so far because being disapointed by the reward tends to ruin many players feeling of "fun".

If the damage scaling had not gone so crazy over the years and there was a proper "carrot on a stick" then you would get your challenge and your reward and everyone would love the challenging content with great rewards and call it fun. 

This is a side effect of the core problem.