The state of Celestial stats and relations to "stat stick"/"stat steriod" Traits & utilities.

[CafPow.1542]

4 hours ago, Sweetbread.3678 said:

In PvE it contributes to the dps gap between top and bottom players being like 1500% (something that would be 30-50% in WoW or FF14)

Could you elaborate this a bit for me? Cause I’m not sure if i understand you correctly. When it comes to playerpower of a newbie vs a veteran, then i would have to disagree and i gladly explain why.

but first: please elaborate cause maybe i misunderstood something. 🙂

[Sweetbread.3678]

36 minutes ago, CafPow.1542 said:

Could you elaborate this a bit for me?

Basically the penalties for not gearing or speccing correctly in this game are far far beyond what they are in other games. It's entirely possible for someone to essentially lose at the Hero panel in a way that would be impossible in something like WoW or FF14. If you've ever run Arcdps in a meta, Convergence, etc. squad you'll pretty much always see that it's like 4-5 players out of 50 that are contributing 80%+ of the dps while the other 45 are barely breaking 2k if they're lucky.

The first reason for this is that those other games keep your stats confined to what's actually useful for your class, whereas GW2 has 30+ different stat combinations to choose from which basically translates to there being at least 29 trap choices at any given time and even if they do pick something damage oriented, there's a very large chance that it has wasted condi or power stats depending on the build and that they don't understand the importance of pairing precision and ferocity with power or expertise with condi damage.

The second reason, that compounds off of the first, is how much of a player's power comes from the gear itself. Like of the 2572 power that a berserker geared character has, only 1000 of that comes from baseline stats. Considering that it's entirely possible to play a power spec and not gear for any power whatsoever, having that proportion of a character's effectiveness tied to gear is probably a bad choice. Keep in mind that this is just the gearing portion of the issue, the buildcrafting with the way it's % modifiers stack multiplicatively is just as full of trap choices.

Like I'm not arguing for removing all gearing disparities or something, but shrinking the gap between the bottom and the top would probably help them keep things balanced. It must be rough having to design content to be interesting for the players that pull 20k+ solo, while also being doable for the vast majority of the playerbase that are outputting less than a tenth of that. And it bleeds over into the class design as well; you can see with a lot of EoD specs where in an effort to help close the gap they made a lot of "simple" but high performing specs that were boosted by having artificially inflated power budgets. In a vacuum where they're only being played by the people who needed the help that would be fine, but most of these carry specs become degenerate balance attrocities if you put someone who even remotely knows what they're doing behind them. It's why Harb, WB, and Virt are such nightmares to deal with in pvp and Mech single handedly obliterated the meta for months after EoD's launch.

[Chaba.5410]

25 minutes ago, Sweetbread.3678 said:

those other games keep your stats confined to what's actually useful for your class, whereas GW2 has 30+ different stat combinations to choose from which basically translates to there being at least 29 trap choices

Oh that's an interesting way of looking at it.  Thanks for the elaboration.  I'm not familiar with those other games yet I get what you're saying about the choices a game gives to players.

How would GW2 define what gear stats are useful for a class though?  The classes can all be built rather differently and for different roles.  What gear is useful for one build may not be so useful to another build.

Edited January 19 by Chaba.5410

[CafPow.1542]

32 minutes ago, Sweetbread.3678 said:

The first reason for this is that those other games keep your stats confined to what's actually useful for your class, whereas GW2 has 30+ different stat combinations to choose from which basically translates to there being at least 29 trap choices at any given time and even if they do pick something damage oriented, there's a very large chance that it has wasted condi or power stats depending on the build and that they don't understand the importance of pairing precision and ferocity with power or expertise with condi damage.

This is interesting and i see what you mean.

but consider that a warrior in wow (i only look at wow cause my ff14 days are looong gone) will never be able to be a support in a way, a gw2 profession can be.

this makes gearing plat armor quite easy. You don’t have to create an armor for warriors with stats that would provide support. You make tank, you make damage, that’s it.

so having this variety also means, that you have builds you can create. There is 1 meta build for a given situation (for example dps), but the other 29 are only traps for dps. Not for other purposes. Like additionally we also have pve with fractals, raids and ow who want different approaches to the game, keep that in mind.

 

41 minutes ago, Sweetbread.3678 said:

you'll pretty much always see that it's like 4-5 players out of 50 that are contributing 80%+ of the dps while the other 45 are barely breaking 2k if they're lucky.

But is that only gear? I have a perfectly equiped power/curses scourge. Now when i get boonstripped or my support is sleeping, i won’t do anything myself cause I’m cc-chained. This is only 1 factor.

i was in a zerg once where all of a sudden somebody said we only have 5 dps cause somehow everybody thought he has to support.

like the mistakes you can make are endless. As far as i met players, most ppl go on a website and copy the build there. I bet there are not a lot of build / armorstats that are superfar away from the meta in a zerg mostly, don’t you think?

also keep in mind: buildcrafting and potential buildvariety is super elemental for an mmo, at least that’s what most people think. But that’s just my guess to be fair ^^
 

47 minutes ago, Sweetbread.3678 said:

The second reason, that compounds off of the first, is how much of a player's power comes from the gear itself. Like of the 2572 power that a berserker geared character has, only 1000 of that comes from baseline stats. Considering that it's entirely possible to play a power spec and not gear for any power whatsoever, having that proportion of a character's effectiveness tied to gear is probably a bad choice. Keep in mind that this is just the gearing portion of the issue, the buildcrafting with the way it's % modifiers stack multiplicatively is just as full of trap choices.

Good, now first:

you have to agree tho that the power you gain from gear is astronomically higher in wow than it is here isn’t it? That was it, what i was wondering about if that would be your point?

now, this is not wow so let’s contemplate quick. The ability of a character to do a certain thing (dps, support, whatever) should be less gear dependant if i understand you correctly? But there should be a difference, right?

so you want a „build“. Now you have factors.

1) gear

2) traits

3) skills 

4) baseline stats

to chose from. Reducing 1) means, buffing the other 3. at the end, you just changed variables but the outcome is the same. If you want the outcome to change cause it’s „too strong“ in one department, aka nerf it, then the difference between a dps build and a healerbuild would become smaller to the extreme where we might all only wear celestial and play the same builds ….

well that would be kinda balanced i guess but would that be fun?

 

thanks for your answer tho and i hope i understood it correctly more or less.

[Jski.6180]

Some classes get more out of having both condi and power dmg at the same time some classes simple have better scaling on big hits then other classes so even an low boots  comes out to being way stronger then say other classes. If your skills are doing 4k ish in full cele that issues is with the skill not the combo type. If your doing 2k ish power dmg and 2k ish condi dmg in one skills agen the issues is with the skill not the combo gear type.

That seems to be the bigger issues here you have base value of skills doing way too much. This is also ture with healing self as well as support (barrier as well as other support effects ect.)

Why dose some classes get higher base valua on there healing effects to where no healing investment seems to be more then enofe to rubberban there hp why do some classes get near to per boon stacking with out any investment into boon duration. THAT is the issues with balancing cele is just an excuse to point at.

The fix is to nerf all base effects and give them only OF USE level effects though gearing up with the high vauil. If you want to do dmg you MUST run power or condi dmg gear. If you want any type of healing you must run healing aimed gear. If you want to give boons that last longer then 1-2 sec you must use boon duration gear. If the skills them self where balanced then cele would be meaningless and more then like be comply worthless to even run.

[Oahkahmewolf.6210]

19 hours ago, Jski.6180 said:

If your skills are doing 4k ish in full cele

Some classes can push that harder and thats taking account if  the enemy does not have toughness.

Edited January 21 by Oahkahmewolf.6210

[Sweetbread.3678]

On 1/19/2024 at 12:27 AM, Chaba.5410 said:

How would GW2 define what gear stats are useful for a class though?  The classes can all be built rather differently and for different roles.  What gear is useful for one build may not be so useful to another build.

Idunno. I don't think getting rid of the selectable stat system it has now is the right answer, but I do think shrinking the impact gear has on a character's total stats would be helpful. There's nothing wrong with variance, but it's gotta be within a realistic limit or kitten starts getting weird and broken at the extremes.

[Chaba.5410]

3 hours ago, Sweetbread.3678 said:

Idunno. I don't think getting rid of the selectable stat system it has now is the right answer, but I do think shrinking the impact gear has on a character's total stats would be helpful. There's nothing wrong with variance, but it's gotta be within a realistic limit or kitten starts getting weird and broken at the extremes.

A guildmate offered an idea to me just last night.

Return Celestial to it's old self without Concentration and Expertise.  Have a new set called Star or Astral that adds in Concentration and Expertise, but the total stat amounts are less than Celestial.  This allows there to still be a "jack of all trades" gearset, but deadens the impact of having higher total stats than everything else.

[SweetPotato.7456]

Please use the search function, there is a million cele threads already

[Widebody.5071]

Maybe they should just make things to where the same stats don't stack together. That'll solve allot of the problems. because i get accused of wearing cele when I'm fitted out Suun's gear.

Cele just give me more staying power while Suun's give me knock out power. Make stats like runes where the same type can't stack. No more berserker. marauder, minstrel... Then the skills will have a chance to shine with no more bickering about stats carrying a player. Include boons, condi, stealth, invulnerability and whole kit and kaboozle. Just take away all stacks and not allow any buffs from a toon that's not the same class as yours.

Yea... This is a pretty good idea, let everyone stand on their own, that's the only way balanced can be acheived without all the mess that usuallly go along with changes. Pay attention Anet, no matter what you do people are gong to complain so you might as well give them the nerfs they're asking for but the nerfs take across the board. That will solve boon balls, cele, harbingers, firebrands, thieves everything. Your prompted attention to this problem will be whole heartily appreciated and I'm sure the players who complain on a weekly basis will be in your debt.

I deserve a bonus for this suggestion.

 

[Triptaminas.4789]

Its like this by design, look up into definition of celestial in google, its literally in the name, its superior armor set, just run cele guardian like anet wants u to and there be end to horror.

 

 

 

 

[Wolf.1972]

On 1/17/2024 at 10:10 PM, CafPow.1542 said:

Without going to much into it cause we already have a thread about this topic i‘d like to adress this point specifically if i may.

let me say first, that i understand this argument but a question pops up now.

let‘s say someone comes and tells us, cele is too tanky / healy / bursty / whatevery.

my question is: how much toughness, vitality, healingpower can i have to increase my burst?

how much power, ferocity, precision do i need to increase my tankiness?

how much condidamage, expertise do i need to make my heals heal more?

 

what I’m trying to say:

some complain that cele does to much damage. So defensive stats are fine then?

some say it’s to tanky, so offensive stats are all clear i guess?

yes, i get „a lot of stats“ out of celestial but at least 50% of those stats are useless for a certain purpose aren’t they.

No.. celestial is able to be abused on so many different classes now. Some of the classes that come to mind the most is Will Bender, Druid, and harbinger. 

[Wolf.1972]

On 1/21/2024 at 9:32 PM, Chaba.5410 said:

A guildmate offered an idea to me just last night.

Return Celestial to it's old self without Concentration and Expertise.  Have a new set called Star or Astral that adds in Concentration and Expertise, but the total stat amounts are less than Celestial.  This allows there to still be a "jack of all trades" gearset, but deadens the impact of having higher total stats than everything else.

I've been saying this for a while.. I like the idea

[Teknomancer.4895]

On 2/20/2024 at 5:25 AM, Widebody.5071 said:

i get accused of wearing cele

As if a valid player option in the game, readily obtainable from a variety of perfectly legitimate in-game sources is some kind of exploit, hack etc. Hardly worth an accusation.

Just answer "only my dry cleaner knows for sure" and walk away.

[CafPow.1542]

30 minutes ago, Wolf.1972 said:

No.. celestial is able to be abused on so many different classes now. Some of the classes that come to mind the most is Will Bender, Druid, and harbinger. 

You missed the point impressively.