FAST HANDS

[GamerToad.9248]

Warrior needs fast hands to be viable at all (except bladesworn but only cause it does not synergizes with the spec).

Why not make warrior fast hands baseline so warrior build variety can stop being strength/discipline/spec - defense/discipline/spec or arms/discipline/spec.

At this point discipline is a must for warrior to ve viable in both comp and pve but knowing ANET they would nerf or delete fast hands and making warrior even more useless so i beg PLEASE BUT FAST HANDS IN BASELINE.

Yes I know it could make warrior oppressive but we have oppression in other classes like harbinger all boons in the game in low cd or willbender being willbender and etc. Also you could balance traits that synergize with it.

 

ALSO REMEMBERING THAT FURIOUS BURST IS STILL BUGGED

[DanAlcedo.3281]

The nerf patch that we would get for compensation would put the Bible to shame in sheer word count. 

And somehow, Anet would put this together in a day or two, while now 2 lines of text took 50 days. 

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

2 hours ago, DanAlcedo.3281 said:

The nerf patch that we would get for compensation would put the Bible to shame in sheer word count. 

And somehow, Anet would put this together in a day or two, while now 2 lines of text took 50 days. 

Now now those two lines of text didn't take 50 days, its the rest of the balance patch that did. Those two lines of text are because Warrior is last alphabetically. /s

[cryorion.9532]

@Obtena.7952 omg your favorite topic

Fast Hands baseline... yes!

However, this change wouldn't miraculously fix the profession.

You know what warrior also needs? To overflow with adrenaline. Gaining adrenaline when hit by enemies as baseline. Even something crazy like gaining full adrenaline when entering combat. No joke. This profession needs to be unchained. It's insane how limiting warrior resource mechanic is compared to other professions. I am sick of pretending that this is ok. Who even enjoys sacrificing heal, utility or elite skills just to skip badly balanced resource mechanic?

[Fueki.4753]

Junksworn was their answer to players complaining about Fast Hands being almost compulsory to play Warrior. Sadly, they ignored the second half of these complaints, which were about making Fast Hands baseline.

It's just like how invisible shoes were their answer to people asking to be able to be barefoot, completely disregarding that people asked for it to be a toggle.

 

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

4 hours ago, cryorion.9532 said:

@Obtena.7952 omg your favorite topic

Fast Hands baseline... yes!

However, this change wouldn't miraculously fix the profession.

You know what warrior also needs? To overflow with adrenaline. Gaining adrenaline when hit by enemies as baseline. Even something crazy like gaining full adrenaline when entering combat. No joke. This profession needs to be unchained. It's insane how limiting warrior resource mechanic is compared to other professions. I am sick of pretending that this is ok. Who even enjoys sacrificing heal, utility or elite skills just to skip badly balanced resource mechanic?

Why... Why would you do this.

Also, no adrenaline decay out of combat would fix a bunch. I would also make Bursts usable without Adrenaline at a T0 set of values. Traits like BP, AH, and CI would only give 1 stack/condi cleanse at T0.

[Obtena.7952]

4 hours ago, Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

Why... Why would you do this.

Also, no adrenaline decay out of combat would fix a bunch. I would also make Bursts usable without Adrenaline at a T0 set of values. Traits like BP, AH, and CI would only give 1 stack/condi cleanse at T0.

Don't worry. The argument was closed years ago ... it still is. The points made back then are still as relevant now, so if people want that rehash, it's a forum search away. If iFH  being baseline was compelling, Anet has had ample time to do something about it. Still waiting to be made wrong ... probably until the day the game servers are unplugged. 

I'm confident that things Anet makes baseline are done because they are related to the fundamental class mechanics, not some random trait people fall in love with. Why I think that? Because that's what we see happen in the game history when other things were made baseline. Ironically, even the person calling me out recognizes the value of adrenaline changes is far greater and more applicable as a baseline change than FH is.  

Edited January 27 by Obtena.7952

[Last Crab.6054]

7 minutes ago, Obtena.7952 said:

Don't worry. The argument was closed years ago ... it still is. The points made back then are still as relevant now, so if people want that rehash, it's a forum search away.

I'm confident that things Anet makes baseline are done because they are related to the fundamental class mechanics, not some random trait people fall in love with. Why I think that? Because that's what we see happen in the game history when other things are made baseline. Even at some level you are aware of the reality by recognizing adrenaline decay being changed as a baseline change is more valuable than Fast Hands ever could be.  

OMG you think this Anet is the same Anet as inception. 

 

[Obtena.7952]

3 minutes ago, Last Crab.6054 said:

OMG you think this Anet is the same Anet as inception. 

 

That doesn't make sense. I didn't say anything about whether it's the 'same Anet' or not ...

... but the arguments for why FH should or shouldn't be baseline aren't any different than they were before. The only fundamental difference now is that specs have associated roles. Does that justify FH being baseline? I don't see it. 

Edited January 27 by Obtena.7952

[KryTiKaL.3125]

7 hours ago, Fueki.4753 said:

Junksworn was their answer to players complaining about Fast Hands being almost compulsory to play Warrior. Sadly, they ignored the second half of these complaints, which were about making Fast Hands baseline.

It's just like how invisible shoes were their answer to people asking to be able to be barefoot, completely disregarding that people asked for it to be a toggle.

 

Yeah...what a wonderful solution they found. Either farm an extremely rare drop, or spend over 2.5k gold for something that legit could have been a visual toggle like Shoulders and Helm.

Smart.

[Last Crab.6054]

3 minutes ago, Obtena.7952 said:

That doesn't make sense. I didn't say anything about whether it's the 'same Anet' or not ...

... but the arguments for why FH should or shouldn't be baseline aren't any different than they were before. 

You know that philosophies change, "fundamental class mechanics"

There is no such thing.

The game needs to evolve

[Obtena.7952]

56 minutes ago, Last Crab.6054 said:

You know that philosophies change, "fundamental class mechanics"

There is no such thing.

The game needs to evolve

Sure they evolve but that in itself doesn't justify FH (or any other random trait) being baseline. 

Frankly, there is a more fruitful discussion to be had about adrenaline changes for baseline improvements. At least that's plausible because there is no question there is a benefit for all warriors there. 

The sad part is that few people think about the consequences of such a thing ... including the 'trade off' warriors are likely to get for access to such a such a benefit. Also, they somehow come to the conclusion that the only solution to strong traits that make lines default choices is to make those traits baseline. I can ASSURE you this is not the singular (or likely) option Anet will consider to solve that problem. 

For posterity: 

Make whatever argument for FH baseline you want. Pretty sure it's been covered here by people trying WAY to hard to ignore the fact that strong traits get NERFS, not made baseline. 

Edited January 27 by Obtena.7952

[GamerToad.9248]

10 hours ago, Obtena.7952 said:

Sure they evolve but that in itself doesn't justify FH (or any other random trait) being baseline. 

Frankly, there is a more fruitful discussion to be had about adrenaline changes for baseline improvements. At least that's plausible because there is no question there is a benefit for all warriors there. 

The sad part is that few people think about the consequences of such a thing ... including the 'trade off' warriors are likely to get for access to such a such a benefit. Also, they somehow come to the conclusion that the only solution to strong traits that make lines default choices is to make those traits baseline. I can ASSURE you this is not the singular (or likely) option Anet will consider to solve that problem. 

For posterity: 

Make whatever argument for FH baseline you want. Pretty sure it's been covered here by people trying WAY to hard to ignore the fact that strong traits get NERFS, not made baseline. 

Fast hands at this point is to the same level of fundamental to the class as adrenaline is.

Tell you what anet would have nerfed fast hands at this point if they didn't know how important it is for warrior to function also various traits are 4 icd exactly cause fast hands is a massive part of warrior and the moment it is nerfed or deleted warrior will fall off to the point of uselessness.

Adrenaline have workaround with proper traits and got even better with arms change but fast hands does not have work around with a exception for warrior rune that is a weaker version of it.

Putting fast hands as baseline would not fix all warrior issues but kitten sure would make warrior way better overnight .

[Obtena.7952]

3 hours ago, GamerToad.9248 said:

Fast hands at this point is to the same level of fundamental to the class as adrenaline is.

Tell you what anet would have nerfed fast hands at this point if they didn't know how important it is for warrior to function also various traits are 4 icd exactly cause fast hands is a massive part of warrior and the moment it is nerfed or deleted warrior will fall off to the point of uselessness.

Adrenaline have workaround with proper traits and got even better with arms change but fast hands does not have work around with a exception for warrior rune that is a weaker version of it.

Putting fast hands as baseline would not fix all warrior issues but kitten sure would make warrior way better overnight .

That might all be true, but game history is an indication of how Anet does things. When Anet makes things baseline, they are related to THE class mechanic. When traits are too strong and make their traitlies must-haves, they get nerfs. These are typical Anet behaviours. There isn't a reason to think Fast Hands is an exception to that behaviour. 

Again, what you and others are doing here is ignoring the alternatives and staying hyper focused on problems where Fast Hands baseline is some attempt to solve those problems because it's the solution you want to see.

What you AREN'T doing is recognizing that those problems, whether it's "warrior = bad" or" Discipline is go-to traitline" ... have more than one solution to them. 

It makes no sense to say "Oh, we have problems so ... exclude considering all solutions to those problems except for Fast Hands being baseline"

What I think is more likely is that FH nerfed to 7-8 seconds and MAYBE compensate by pumping up Versatile Rage and Versatile Power to juice the class mechanic ... because if Fhands IS as fundamental to warrior as the burst mechanic as you say and it's competing with Burst as the warrior-defining mechanic ... it SHOULDN'T be. 

Edited January 27 by Obtena.7952

[cryorion.9532]

2 hours ago, GamerToad.9248 said:

Putting fast hands as baseline would not fix all warrior issues but kitten sure would make warrior way better overnight .

If we want something to be improved, making traits baseline isn't the only solution. For example PvE hammer Spellbreaker with Strength and Defense traitlines. It does not use Discipline traitline and still works really well. However, that is because Anet deliberately created the build by reworking multiple different skills/traits (by intentionally changing Merciless Hammer trait, hammer skills and so on). This build would never work if Merciless Hammer didn't have adrenaline gain upon disabling enemy. And that is because of lack of Fast Hands AND Versatile Rage (adrenaline gain on weapon swap). If you change Defense to Discipline, the build will still somehow work albeit it will have worse damage because of missing damage modifiers from Defense.

Non-Discipline builds can work without Discipline traitline if those builds can reliably and frequently generate adrenaline... and of course those builds have plenty of skills/utility available.

Fast Hands baseline is "just" unification of all warrior builds having 5 sec weapon swap cooldown, which is huge in some aspects of the profession (and I would love that) but think about this: would you rather have 5 sec weapon swap cooldown on all builds, or would you rather have builds that are really good even with 10 sec weapon swap cooldown?

Edited January 27 by cryorion.9532

[Fueki.4753]

25 minutes ago, cryorion.9532 said:

think about this: would you rather have 5 sec weapon swap cooldown on all builds, or would you rather have builds that are really good even with 10 sec weapon swap cooldown?

If they actually made most traits actually decent and versatile, and let our utilities be on the same level as other professions and fixed the bugs, glitches and jank we have on our weapons, that would be nice.

But they have shown us time again and again and again and again, that's not going to happen.

That's why people want them to at least give us that one thing that could make Discipline more optional and be less of a requirement for many builds.

Edited January 27 by Fueki.4753

[GamerToad.9248]

28 minutes ago, Fueki.4753 said:

If they actually made most traits actually decent and versatile, and let our utilities be on the same level as other professions and fixed the bugs, glitches and jank we have on our weapons, that would be nice.

But they have shown us time again and again and again and again, that's not going to happen.

That's why people want them to at least give us that one thing that could make Discipline more optional and be less of a requirement for many builds.

THIS Right here says it all.... ANET Will never fix warrior issues enough so fast hands would be the fastest and safest way to make warrior more versatile and be less reliant on discipline.

[Obtena.7952]

1 hour ago, GamerToad.9248 said:

THIS Right here says it all.... ANET Will never fix warrior issues enough so fast hands would be the fastest and safest way to make warrior more versatile and be less reliant on discipline.

This doesn't make sense ... you say Anet will NEVER fix warrior issues 'enough', but SOMEHOW you think they will put in the work to fix warrior problems 'a bit' m, specifically by making  FHands baseline? That's just wishful thinking. Also you SOMEHOW concluded Fhands as baseline is the easiest and fastest way to do that? YOu simply don't know if that's true. 

Again, if the problem that is to be solved is warrior is too reliant on Discipline because FHands ... making FHands baseline is NOT the easiest or typical solution that has been used to solve that problem of 'too much reliance on traitlines' in the past. The obvious solution is the one proponents want to ignore ... a fat nerf to Fast Hands. 

How come no one wants to talk about the possibility that Fast hands could be nerfed because of the arguments people are making for it to be baseline? They don't believe it could happen? People don't believe Anet would come to this conclusion themselves? Like they have never nerfed strong traits before?

Edited January 27 by Obtena.7952

[Fueki.4753]

6 minutes ago, Obtena.7952 said:

This doesn't make sense ... if Anet will NEVER fix warrior issues 'enough', SOMEHOW you concluded that Anet IS willing to fix warrior problems 'a bit' by making  FHands baseline as a solution to that? That's just wishful thinking.

It's not that people conclude anything about there willingness. It's simply people wishing for the smallest of things to be done to increase variety among builds.

7 minutes ago, Obtena.7952 said:

Again, if the problem that is to be solved is warrior is too reliant on Discipline because FHands ... making FHands baseline is NOT the easiest or typical solution that has been used to solve that problem of 'too much reliance on traitlines' in the past. The easiest solution there is the solution you want to ignore ... a fat nerf to Fast Hands. 

Making Fast Hands baseline literally is the easiest solution with the smallest amount of developers effort to improve build variety. More build variety is what Warrior players want.

Nerfing Fast hands will just kill all builds relying on it. If that was their goal, your idea would be on point. But that is exactly the opposite of of what Warrior players want. Neutering Fast hands and practically deleting most Warrior builds will not make room for other builds. Warrior would simply end up even more broken than it already is.

And don't argue with something like "but there would be buffs in other players to make up for it". If their track record since at least the release of HoT is anything to go by, there wouldn't be any buffs that could possibly make up for the loss.

 

[Obtena.7952]

24 minutes ago, Fueki.4753 said:

Making Fast Hands baseline literally is the easiest solution with the smallest amount of developers effort to improve build variety. More build variety is what Warrior players want.

lNerfing Fast hands will just kill all builds relying on it.

Again, no one knows if FHands being baseline is 'literally' the easiest solution here. That requires insight that no one here has. Again, if people want more build variety and conclude they get that if Discipline was less of a must-have traitline, then it's pretty absurd to think making Fast Hands baseline is 'literally easier' for Anet than just nerfing Fast Hands. 

Honestly, you are going to believe that Anet taking Fast Hands, making it baseline and creating a new trait to take it's place in Discipline is 'literally easier' than Anet just changing Fast Hands weapon swap CD? I'm pretty sure the amount of work involved with changing the Fast Hands weapon swap CD is MUCH LESS than making Fast Hands base line AND creating a replacement trait. 

lNerfing Fast hands will just kill all builds relying on it? Yes, that's pretty much the point ... you just told me you want more variety which means you don't want to be reliant on Discipline because of Fast Hands . Why do you think nerfing Fast hands isn't a solution to that problem?

Edited January 27 by Obtena.7952

[Fueki.4753]

10 minutes ago, Obtena.7952 said:

Again, no one knows if FHands being baseline is 'literally' the easiest solution here. That requires insight that no one here has.

People have tested it. A few years ago, I tested it myself. Not having the CD reduction makes Warrior feel worse to play.

11 minutes ago, Obtena.7952 said:

Honestly, you are going to believe that Anet taking Fast Hands, making it baseline and creating a new trait to take it's place in Discipline is 'literally easier' than Anet just changing Fast Hands weapon swap CD?

It's not simply about "what is easier." It's about "what is easier, while improving the build variety".

Making Fast Hands baseline objectively is less effort than fixing all the bugs, glitches and jank, while also improving all the traits and making our utilities better.

Neutering Fast Hands will not improve build variety, it will the exact opposite. Thus, it is not a solution to a problem that can be solved with Fast Hands being baseline.

[Obtena.7952]

1 hour ago, Fueki.4753 said:

People have tested it. A few years ago, I tested it myself. Not having the CD reduction makes Warrior feel worse to play.

That makes no sense ... Warrior feeling worse to play without FH does not prove that making Fast hands baseline is 'literally the easiest' way for Anet to solve the problem of low build variety. NOTHING should convince you that Anet won't nerf a thing because it would 'feel worse to play'. That is fantasy. 

1 hour ago, Fueki.4753 said:

It's not simply about "what is easier." It's about "what is easier, while improving the build variety".

Making Fast Hands baseline objectively is less effort than fixing all the bugs, glitches and jank, while also improving all the traits and making our utilities better.

Again, why do you exclude the solution of nerfing Fast Hands if it's making Discipline a must -have traitline and low build variety is a problem with Warrior? You don't get to frame this problem to get the solution you want. That doesn't make sense. It's absurd to think a Fast Hands nerf would not be considered by Anet to solve that problem. If you don't believe this, you just aren't paying attention to how Anet operates for the last 11 years. 

I mean, you and others are literally justifying a reason for Anet to nerf Fast Hands AND those reasons are similar to ones Anet has used to nerf traits in the past. I don't get how you can't see this, like SOMEHOW it couldn't happen to Warrior because you think it's exceptional in some way.  

1 hour ago, Fueki.4753 said:

Neutering Fast Hands will not improve build variety, it will the exact opposite. Thus, it is not a solution to a problem that can be solved with Fast Hands being baseline.

That doesn't make sense ... I would argue it's pretty obvious that nerfing OP'ed traits/traitlines makes other traits/traitlines more attractive to use, especially the MORE they are nerfed. In fact, that's exactly a reason why Anet has made trait nerfs in the past.

Simply put ... improving build variety depends ENTIRELY on the changes that are made and yes, COULD include nerfing FHands if it's indeed as influential to traitline choices as people say it is. 

For SOME reason, you think that what Anet has done in the past isn't an indication of what they could do in the future. That's astounding to me. 

This is what I hear ... "We want more build variety but we DON'T want it by giving up the thing causing a lack of build variety"

Edited January 27 by Obtena.7952

[cryorion.9532]

3 hours ago, Fueki.4753 said:

If they actually made most traits actually decent and versatile, and let our utilities be on the same level as other professions and fixed the bugs, glitches and jank we have on our weapons, that would be nice.

But they have shown us time again and again and again and again, that's not going to happen.

That's why people want them to at least give us that one thing that could make Discipline more optional and be less of a requirement for many builds.

Do you think that current balance team would ever make Fast Hands baseline? Devs who laugh at Rush being  broken and doing nothing to fix it?

[cryorion.9532]

2 hours ago, Obtena.7952 said:

How come no one wants to talk about the possibility that Fast hands could be nerfed because of the arguments people are making for it to be baseline? They don't believe it could happen? People don't believe Anet would come to this conclusion themselves? Like they have never nerfed strong traits before?

I kinda wish to see playerbase react to FH being removed. First banner change was pretty spicy.

Perhaps the main reason FH hasn't been nerfed yet is because without it, the whole profession is significantly worse (except very very few builds that don't use Discipline) and they would have to buff quite a lot of things to offset this change.

Funnily enough, in PvE warrior would still have some meta builds untouched if Anet decided to remove Fast Hands. Berserker camping axes and spamming Decapitate for damage/perma quickness or hammer Spellbreaker (which doesn't use Discipline traitline)... rip condi Berserker though and who cares about Bladesworn (it probably doesn't even use Discipline in the first place) so everything is fin... omg Anet is already preparing to remove Fast Hands 😱

[KryTiKaL.3125]

3 hours ago, cryorion.9532 said:

Do you think that current balance team would ever make Fast Hands baseline? Devs who laugh at Rush being  broken and doing nothing to fix it?

Ugh every time I remember this I seethe a little bit.

Most frustrating kitten thing to see the devs acknowledge a visible, known, widely complained about issue that they quite literally have every ability to fix...and they just go "haha hue hue" all after having said they want to avoid it becoming in issue on other similar skills.

What the hell? What kind of dev team does that without at least mentioning they are looking into solutions? If you know its a problem, acknowledge its a problem and follow up with stating you want to avoid it being a problem in the future...then why not fix it? HELLO?