FAST HANDS

[Obtena.7952]

8 hours ago, cryorion.9532 said:

Why are you so concerned about FH being nerfed? You are right, that Anet could interpret us wanting FH baseline (because warrior is just too good with it) as a reason to nerf it but given the state of the profession, they could also make it baseline instead. If they want to improve the profession, it is one of the options.

Why am I concerned about FH being nerfed? Is that a serious question?

I'm concerned about it because I think people are right ... Discipline is too strong a choice of a traitline. I think FH has lots to do with that. I KNOW Anet will nerf strong choices to make other choices a stronger consideration.

Again, the state of the profession has NOT prevented Anet from nerfing things they want to nerf in the past ... don't convince yourself this is some exceptional case. 

Edited January 31 by Obtena.7952

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

I wouldn't say Discipline is inherently strong or OP. It's just that the Burst CD reduction, weapon swap reduction, and Warrior's Sprint that are all so convenient. Let's be honest those three things are the only reason you take Discipline unless you are running Axes or banners.

They've stated that baselining CD reduction traits is a goal of theirs, except where they forget to do it *cough* *shield*...

Baselining FH is in line with their vision then. Honestly, that might fixed the bugged interaction between Relic of the Warrior and FH 🤔

[Obtena.7952]

56 minutes ago, Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

I wouldn't say Discipline is inherently strong or OP. It's just that the Burst CD reduction, weapon swap reduction, and Warrior's Sprint that are all so convenient. Let's be honest those three things are the only reason you take Discipline unless you are running Axes or banners.

They've stated that baselining CD reduction traits is a goal of theirs, except where they forget to do it *cough* *shield*...

Baselining FH is in line with their vision then. Honestly, that might fixed the bugged interaction between Relic of the Warrior and FH 🤔

Sure ... you and some other people won't say that ... but lots of people HAVE said it. That's a problem IMO because when people start carelessly saying things and making nonsensical suggestions, that don't help the situation any. 

But what's funny is that when someone does say FH is making Discipline a must-have trait, the reasonable people that who wouldn't say that don't oppose that logic, like somehow, it's a better argument for baselining FH than simply pointing to the statement Anet made about baseling CD reduction traits as a goal. It's almost like those people who wouldn't say Discipline is OPed believe that grabbing attention to a class with bad suggestions is somehow still good for the class. Weird. 

Edited January 31 by Obtena.7952

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

1 hour ago, Obtena.7952 said:

Sure ... you and some other people won't say that ... but lots of people HAVE said it. That's a problem IMO because when people start carelessly saying things and making nonsensical suggestions, that don't help the situation any. 

But what's funny is that when someone does say FH is making Discipline a must-have trait, the reasonable people that who wouldn't say that don't oppose that logic, like somehow, it's a better argument for baselining FH than simply pointing to the statement Anet made about baseling CD reduction traits as a goal. It's almost like those people who wouldn't say Discipline is OPed believe that grabbing attention to a class with bad suggestions is somehow still good for the class. Weird. 

I think the distinction here is that FH is considered a must have, not because it is OP or strong, but because it makes some of the underpowered aspects of warrior more reasonable to deal with. We're saying that it is a must have, because the class literally does not work as intended unless you have it sans BSW, while you are trying to play the Devil's Advocate that instead that means that FH itself must be strong and OP since it is a must have.

It's a must have because warrior is otherwise utterly lacking without it, not because it is a game breaking mechanic. Claiming that FH being a must have is evidence that it should be nerfed is false at face value. If the rest of warrior were better, if it had several more profession mechanic skills, if adrenaline and flow never decayed, if it had more damage modifiers greater than +3% or +7%, if it had less reliance on highly telegraphed attacks, then maybe you could consider a baseline FH OP. But that is not the state of warrior balance.

Edited January 31 by Lan Deathrider.5910

[Leo G.4501]

1 hour ago, Obtena.7952 said:

It's almost like those people who wouldn't say Discipline is OPed believe that grabbing attention to a class with bad suggestions is somehow still good for the class. Weird. 

As opposed to what? That is, what would be a better use for a board with the profession as it's subject?

[Obtena.7952]

1 hour ago, Leo G.4501 said:

As opposed to what? That is, what would be a better use for a board with the profession as it's subject?

As opposed to people making suggestions that DON'T justify a FH nerf. ... like the fact that Anet has stated Cd reductions being baselined. 

[Obtena.7952]

2 hours ago, Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

I think the distinction here is that FH is considered a must have, not because it is OP or strong, but because it makes some of the underpowered aspects of warrior more reasonable to deal with. We're saying that it is a must have, because the class literally does not work as intended unless you have it sans BSW, while you are trying to play the Devil's Advocate that instead that means that FH itself must be strong and OP since it is a must have.

It's a must have because warrior is otherwise utterly lacking without it, not because it is a game breaking mechanic. Claiming that FH being a must have is evidence that it should be nerfed is false at face value. If the rest of warrior were better, if it had several more profession mechanic skills, if adrenaline and flow never decayed, if it had more damage modifiers greater than +3% or +7%, if it had less reliance on highly telegraphed attacks, then maybe you could consider a baseline FH OP. But that is not the state of warrior balance.

Sure ... again, I get the argument that baselining FH is an improvement. I know that. I get it. It goes without sayings. Repeating these things to me doesn't change that it's not relevant to my point, which many people seem keen to want to ignore and call me into this thread to argue with me about it once again. If you can agree that FH can be a target for nerfs because it's a must-have trait, you have no reason to reply to me. 

That distinction doesn't change the fact that Anet nerfs must-have traits, regardless of why it's a must-have. Therefore, people need to THINK about their justification for FH being baselined. Do not convince yourself Anet CAN'T nerf FH just because Warrior is defined by players as the most deficient class. There are lots of instances where Anet nerfs something on deficient classes, even warrior. These points about FH being must-have make do not make FH immune to being nerfed. They make FH a TARGET for nerfs. 

Edited January 31 by Obtena.7952

[Leo G.4501]

29 minutes ago, Obtena.7952 said:

Sure ... again, I get the argument that baselining FH is an improvement. I know that. I get it. It goes without sayings. Repeating these things to me doesn't change that it's not relevant to my point, which many people seem keen to want to ignore and call me into this thread to argue with me about it once again. If you can agree that FH can be a target for nerfs because it's a must-have trait, you have no reason to reply to me. 

That distinction doesn't change the fact that Anet nerfs must-have traits, regardless of why it's a must-have. Therefore, people need to THINK about their justification for FH being baselined. Do not convince yourself Anet CAN'T nerf FH just because Warrior is defined by players as the most deficient class. There are lots of instances where Anet nerfs something on deficient classes, even warrior. These points about FH being must-have make do not make FH immune to being nerfed. They make FH a TARGET for nerfs. 

So you're pressing the topic out of fear?

Lol I get it. I often post from that perspective too but I don't think they'd ever nerf FH just because most wars use it. If anything, the more nefarious direction Anet might take is spreading the swap and premium traits to other lines like swapping Warrior's Sprint and Warrior's cunning plus swapping Brawler's recovery with cull the weak. Why? So that other trait lines are more attractive options or something.

I could also see the purity of purpose route of moving all weapon swap traits to Discipline and making FH baseline while adding a new swap feature to make weapon swap a core mechanic of the profession.  

Tl;Dr: I don't think they'd ever nerf FH because FH by itself isn't super amazing. I'd don't see them nerf Discipline as over all than simply FH. Btw, you don't need to reply to this, it's mostly just me thinking it loud. 

Personally would rather they keep Discipline the same and just improve some of the other lines more so going without one or two ofthe other lines is harder of a choice.

[cryorion.9532]

1 hour ago, Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

*Gestures at everything*

🍿?

I am sure Obtena would appear even if I didn't tag them.

@Obtena.7952

If you fear that Anet nerfs Fast Hands because some people claim Fast Hands is op and makes Discipline mandatory, don't you think it is up to Anet to decide whether the claim is justified and reasonable? If you think that the claim is true, then let them nerf it. Why pretending that everything is fine, be silent and "be quietly overpowered" with Fast Hands? If they decide the claim is unjustified, they will either make FH baseline or not. In any case, nerfing Fast Hands would eventually result in buffs in some aspects of Warrior professions and who knows, maybe it would be reasonable buffs 🤷‍♂️

[Obtena.7952]

5 hours ago, cryorion.9532 said:

If you fear that Anet nerfs Fast Hands because some people claim Fast Hands is op and makes Discipline mandatory, don't you think it is up to Anet to decide whether the claim is justified and reasonable? If you think that the claim is true, then let them nerf it. Why pretending that everything is fine, be silent and "be quietly overpowered" with Fast Hands? If they decide the claim is unjustified, they will either make FH baseline or not. In any case, nerfing Fast Hands would eventually result in buffs in some aspects of Warrior professions and who knows, maybe it would be reasonable buffs 🤷‍♂️

Sure ... I never said it wasn't their decision to make. I'm not pretending everything is fine. I'm more than aware that Anet will do what they want with FH. 

I think it's just nonsense that people are going to present a justification for baseline FH that is AS GOOD a reason to nerf FH, as if nerfing FH CAN'T be a option Anet takes.

 

Edited February 1 by Obtena.7952

[Obtena.7952]

6 hours ago, Leo G.4501 said:

 I often post from that perspective too but I don't think they'd ever nerf FH just because most wars use it.

Fair, but I DO think Anet will nerf FH if they agree with the players that say it's OP making Discipline a must-have traitline because it's a reason they have nerfed traits in the past. 

Edited February 1 by Obtena.7952

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

I don't think anyone here has said FH is OP.

[Obtena.7952]

26 minutes ago, Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

I don't think anyone here has said FH is OP.

True ... I'm using that statement to simply how much I have to type EVERY time I clarify what my point is. If you want to see what people are ACTUALLY saying, there is a record of it in this thread. That's just being semantic.

The bottomline: it's clear people are arguing FH should be baseline because Discipline is a must-have traitline. 

Edited February 1 by Obtena.7952

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

1 hour ago, Obtena.7952 said:

True ... I'm using that statement to simply how much I have to type EVERY time I clarify what my point is.

That's because you're going around in circles with no one taking the bait. 

 

[Obtena.7952]

10 hours ago, Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

That's because you're going around in circles with no one taking the bait. 

 

There is just one simple idea here: If people are using the fact that FH should be baseline because Discipline is a must-have traitline, then that SAME idea can justify FH being nerfed. 

Edited February 1 by Obtena.7952

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

9 minutes ago, Obtena.7952 said:

 that SAME idea can justify FH being nerfed. 

I'll highlight the fallacy for you this time.

[Obtena.7952]

37 minutes ago, Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

I'll highlight the fallacy for you this time.

It's not a fallacy to understand that Anet nerfs things that are too strong. The ironic part is that it's the player's themselves making the claim of how strong it is for Anet. 

Edited February 1 by Obtena.7952

[GamerToad.9248]

I Mean if anet wants to nerf fh or even delete it they can go for it.... that would warranty a massive buff for warrior in all game modes.

CASE IN POINT: Warrior mechanic is locked behind what weapons they are wielding which no other class really has (maybe elementarist is closest one to weapon related class mechanic).

If warrior is not using FH they are camping a weapon (Hammer spell breaker or bladesworn cause their damage is back loaded into Dragon Trigger).

I've lost my "Fear of nerfs" if anet wants to step on that landmine they can do it however i see another banner rework situation.

[Fat Disgrace.4275]

warriors sprint, burst mastery are still worthy of taking over something like arms if fast hands became bassline. well atleast for wvw/pvp.

[Fueki.4753]

2 hours ago, GamerToad.9248 said:

I Mean if anet wants to nerf fh or even delete it they can go for it.... that would warranty a massive buff for warrior in all game modes.

Since such a nerf is exceedingly unlikely to be accompanied by buffs, especially substantial ones, Arenanet needs to be ready for Warrior players not just to abandon the profession, but the entire game in response to that nerf.

[cryorion.9532]

1 hour ago, Fat Disgrace.4275 said:

warriors sprint, burst mastery are still worthy of taking over something like arms if fast hands became bassline. well atleast for wvw/pvp.

That depends on what you want to achieve with your build, playstyle etc. Why do you need Warrior's Sprint if you can clear immobilize with something else and have 25% movement speed from other source? You get to experiment with more combinations and possibilities but now with 5 sec weapon swap. Discipline would still remain there for builds that already work well, possibilty even completely unchanged if you split one minor trait into two and replace one with missing Fast Hands.

[GamerToad.9248]

19 minutes ago, Fueki.4753 said:

Since such a nerf is exceedingly unlikely to be accompanied by buffs, especially substantial ones, Arenanet needs to be ready for Warrior players not just to abandon the profession, but the entire game in response to that nerf.

I know but at this point i believe anet will only properly fix warrior the moment warrior get so utterly kitten that playing warrior makes you get kicked from groups.

And is only a question of time with anet to that happen with theses stupid warrior nerfs.

Someday they will nerf warrior so bad that even non warrior mains will question anet.... and that day they will need to knowledge and address warrior.

that happened before with banner changes.

Edited February 1 by GamerToad.9248

[Fueki.4753]

32 minutes ago, GamerToad.9248 said:

I know but at this point i believe anet will only properly fix warrior the moment warrior get so utterly kitten that playing warrior makes you get kicked from groups.

At this point, I wouldn't even be surprised if they manage to break Warrior in a fundamental way and letting it rot away in such a state.

Over a decade of being a Warrior main and never getting the updates that were needed to keep up with the other professions can tell you enough.

And don't forget, they even went out of their way to publicly make fun of Rush's dysfunctional state, without even trying to fix it.

[KryTiKaL.3125]

1 hour ago, Fueki.4753 said:

At this point, I wouldn't even be surprised if they manage to break Warrior in a fundamental way and letting it rot away in such a state.

Over a decade of being a Warrior main and never getting the updates that were needed to keep up with the other professions can tell you enough.

And don't forget, they even went out of their way to publicly make fun of Rush's dysfunctional state, without even trying to fix it.

Or even stating they are looking into it, which would be the least they could do.

Warrior has also gotten changes it needs...just several years later. The fastest I have ever seen them move to change something on Warrior was with the initial Banner rework and the absolute tragedy that it was. It only took them about a month and a few days to push out a vastly better version of the rework than what they initially thought was "good". That whole situation was evidence enough for those who main Warrior to realize that ANet does not know what they are doing with this class and that perception has not really changed unfortunately.

It would be nice if we knew if any of the devs on the balance team actually play Warrior an extensive amount in competitive modes. I know CMC has mentioned they were using it "more lately" in Conquest a loooong while back, but CMC I think still has a particularly heavy bias towards Elementalist which is precisely why Cele Dagger Ele made a return. Which is fine...just, y'know, find people that can help give the other classes appropriate attention maybe? Particularly after that leak a good while back where one of the devs was visibly shown to push things they wanted to buff Engineer and Guardian basically "just cuz".

[Leo G.4501]

2 hours ago, GamerToad.9248 said:

the confused face spammer is back oh noes the Reddit brain

It was me!

not rly lol. But if everyone's confusing, then no one is...or something.