FAST HANDS

[Obtena.7952]

 

10 minutes ago, cryorion.9532 said:

What are we even arguing about?

I'm not arguing with you about anything, which is why I'm not answering questions you've asked me about this topic in previous threads. The answers don't change. Again, you called ME out in this thread ... I have no idea what for, other than to try and have another go at me. 

 

 

Edited January 30 by Obtena.7952

[cryorion.9532]

Just now, Obtena.7952 said:

 

Here is how we are going proceed. I'm not arguing with you about anything. Seems to me you want to make a point about FH being baseline. My points about that should be pretty clear. 

Your points are not clear to me.

Do you want Fast Hands to become baseline or not?

If not, then what is your argument against making Fast Hands baseline?

[Obtena.7952]

6 minutes ago, cryorion.9532 said:

Your points are not clear to me.

Do you want Fast Hands to become baseline or not?

If not, then what is your argument against making Fast Hands baseline?

I don't care if FH becomes baseline. What I DO care about is when people make nonsensical arguments to make FH baseline that Anet could regard as a justification for a nerf. 

Edited January 30 by Obtena.7952

[Vancho.8750]

4 hours ago, Obtena.7952 said:

Except this isn't about Anet 'budging' on Warrior mechanic because nothing about what is being asked for has ANYTHING to do with Warrior's mechanic. It's simply about players blatantly asking for power creep. Is Anet handling warrior badly? I see it, I don't think they do it justice ... but people have convinced themselves Anet will dump traits into baseline features of the class to fix that? That makes no sense. That would be exceptional behaviour for Anet to solve problems that way. 

Here is the best part: Considering the way people are selling the FHands=baseline idea justifies NERFING that trait, the whole proposal is just dumb. 

Its not Exceptional Behaviour they already removed the CD reducing traits and baselined it on all professions ( you might try to weasel out by finding this and that trait that I can't bother with looking up, but it most probably missed instead of intentional, since the plan as they stated before was reducing the variables to balancing for such cd anomalies).

There is already a precedent in the game for base lining cd reduction and by all intents and purposes Fast Hands is cd reduction trait that is already ran on all builds so there will be more options then elite spec discipline x .

There is argument that Bladesworn doesn't need to use Fast hands, but it only affects the rotation and not the output of the rigid builds you can do with it and even if you add it to the bunch its the easiest spec to balance of the bunch since its numbers are frontloaded in DT. We might see some touch up on tactics and arms if FH is baselined which they need anyway, quite frankly they need reworks.

The power creep argument is stupid , we pumping 40k dps on all builds in PVE , PVP is dead and even if someone gives a kitten,  warrior will still switch weapons on 5 seconds like now, it will actually make it more consistent.

[Obtena.7952]

8 minutes ago, Vancho.8750 said:

Its not Exceptional Behaviour they already removed the CD reducing traits and baselined it on all professions ( you might try to weasel out by finding this and that trait that I can't bother with looking up, but it most probably missed instead of intentional, since the plan as they stated before was reducing the variables to balancing for such cd anomalies).

There is already a precedent in the game for base lining cd reduction and by all intents and purposes Fast Hands is cd reduction trait that is already ran on all builds so there will be more options then elite spec discipline x .

There is argument that Bladesworn doesn't need to use Fast hands, but it only affects the rotation and not the output of the rigid builds you can do with it and even if you add it to the bunch its the easiest spec to balance of the bunch since its numbers are frontloaded in DT. We might see some touch up on tactics and arms if FH is baselined which they need anyway, quite frankly they need reworks.

The power creep argument is stupid , we pumping 40k dps on all builds in PVE , PVP is dead and even if someone gives a kitten,  warrior will still switch weapons on 5 seconds like now, it will actually make it more consistent.

Again, nothing here is changing the fact that if people are going to push Fast Hands into Discipline being a MUST HAVE traitline to justify FH being baseline, then it's not unreasonable to think Anet would nerf it. It's not like you win some argument with me and POOF ... suddenly Anet can't nerf FH. 

Edited January 30 by Obtena.7952

[Leo G.4501]

7 minutes ago, Vancho.8750 said:

There is already a precedent in the game for base lining cd reduction and by all intents and purposes Fast Hands is cd reduction trait that is already ran on all builds so there will be more options then elite spec discipline x .

Just gonna say it: most of my Warrior builds don't use discipline. I frankly find the reliance on swap-spam to be a playstyle choice, not a feature. It's the same reason I don't like running Arcane on my Ele. Of course, it helps but faster attunement swapping shouldn't be a feature made baseline either.

That being said, I really don't care if Fast hands is made baseline. If it were, I'd hope they'd make a more interesting spec aspect than just getting a free condi clear and adrenaline on weapons swap spam...like if you get a unique effect depending on what weapon you swap to so you'd actually get a bigger return if you have 2 unique weapons instead of just double-axe all the time.

All in all, my position is they've been shredding a lot of cooldowns for a long time while at the same time watering down effects. It's facilitated more spam and less deceive skill use. You aren't really punished for spam like you should.

[cryorion.9532]

Just now, Obtena.7952 said:

I don't care if FH becomes baseline. What I DO care about is that is people make nonsensical arguments to make FH baseline that Anet could regard as a justification for a nerf. 

OK. What prevents Anet from making Fast Hands baseline for warrior instead of nerfing it (if people say that the trait is so important and strong)? Nothing prevents them. They can do whatever they want. I think you base your argument around if something is important/strong, the one and only solution is to nerf it. There might have been cases where Anet nerfed important/strong things, but nothing stops them from taking different aproach in case of Fast Hands. In the end, it all depends on whether devs want warrior to have 5 second weapon swap on all builds, it does not depend on what players want.

[Obtena.7952]

4 minutes ago, cryorion.9532 said:

OK. What prevents Anet from making Fast Hands baseline for warrior instead of nerfing it (if people say that the trait is so important and strong)? Nothing prevents them. They can do whatever they want. I think you base your argument around if something is important/strong, the one and only solution is to nerf it. There might have been cases where Anet nerfed important/strong things, but nothing stops them from taking different aproach in case of Fast Hands. In the end, it all depends on whether devs want warrior to have 5 second weapon swap on all builds, it does not depend on what players want.

That's right, nothing prevents Anet from doing whatever they want to do. I don't get why you are parroting back to me things I've said myself. 

What is missing here is that people are SOMEHOW coming to the conclusion that FH being a trait that makes Discipline a must-have traitline excludes it from being nerfed and that it's a foregone conclusion Anet just baseline it. That's nonsense. 

Edited January 30 by Obtena.7952

[Vancho.8750]

4 minutes ago, Obtena.7952 said:

Again, nothing here is changing the fact that if people are going to push Fast Hands into Discipline being a MUST HAVE traitline to justify FH being baseline, then it's not unreasonable to think Anet would nerf it. It's not like you win some argument with me and POOF ... suddenly Anet can't nerf FH. 

No one is pushing anything, my argument is that Anet has been removing CD reduction traits and baselining it, they can nerf it to how ever they want or add it as QoL so the button pressing of the profession works better and nerf the generic do x more damage traits.

FS is already the default if Anet nerfs something if it is baseline it most probably will be the do more damage traits here and there and some coefficient on DT or something.

Tell me which is easier to calculate the already Baselined 5s switch since the builds run it already or making your life more complicated and making it 10 8 or whatever second and shaving off 10% of this burst skill or that x trait? The game already is balanced around warrior having fast hands.

Your argument is pointless since if it is that OP they would have changed it years ago.

[Obtena.7952]

9 minutes ago, Vancho.8750 said:

Your argument is pointless since if it is that OP they would have changed it years ago.

Hold on ...

First, I'm not arguing Anet shouldn't make it baseline. That's just you not paying attention to what I'm saying. 

Second, if that IS my argument and it's pointless that it's OP, then there isn't any argument for making it baseline either, because it's the SAME argument being used by other people to make it baseline.

Again, if the argument to make FH baseline because it's 'OP' ... it's the SAME argument to nerf it. That is my problem with how people are justifying FH being baseline. 

Edited January 30 by Obtena.7952

[Bris.7984]

We are doomed to the ground!Only viable nerfs and nothing special to do some decent builds....

[Obtena.7952]

1 minute ago, Bris.7984 said:

We are doomed to the ground!Only viable nerfs and nothing special to do some decent builds....

That doesn't make sense ... there are lots of 'special' things that can happen to get decent builds that don't involve just baselining random traits that people are addicted to.

Edited January 30 by Obtena.7952

[Vancho.8750]

1 minute ago, Obtena.7952 said:

Hold on ...

First, I'm not arguing Anet shouldn't make it baseline. That's just you not paying attention to what I'm saying. 

Second, if that IS my argument and it's pointless that it's OP, then there isn't any argument for making it baseline either, because it's the SAME argument. 

The problem is that you argue for the sake of winning an argument and also refusing to acknowledge that I fact checked your point that there isn't precedent of Anet baselining stuff.
There isn't point for me in trying to convince you of anything since you will just move the goal post or just circle back to hypothetical pointless event.  

My argument is that FS makes warrior play way more fun, the point of a game is to have fun, so Anet should make the game more fun, I don't care if they nerf/buff or whatever they as long as I have fun with it.

[Obtena.7952]

11 minutes ago, Vancho.8750 said:

The problem is that you argue for the sake of winning an argument and also refusing to acknowledge that I fact checked your point that there isn't precedent of Anet baselining stuff.
There isn't point for me in trying to convince you of anything since you will just move the goal post or just circle back to hypothetical pointless event.  

My argument is that FS makes warrior play way more fun, the point of a game is to have fun, so Anet should make the game more fun, I don't care if they nerf/buff or whatever they as long as I have fun with it.

Except there shouldn't BE an argument, so it's nonsense for people to argue with me in the first place. If people are going to say FH is OP so it should be baseline, then nerfing it IS also a possibility there and they should stop pretending it's not. 

I mean, if the goal is more fun ... there are definitely better arguments to address that than "FH is OP so baseline it" ... because I can assure you, that's definitely not the attention you want to grab on something you like. 

 

 

Edited January 30 by Obtena.7952

[Vancho.8750]

Just now, Obtena.7952 said:

Except there shouldn't BE an argument, so it's nonsense for people to argue with me in the first place. If people are going to say FH is OP so it should be baseline, they nerfing IS also a possibility there. 

If your point is that FH makes warrior more fun ... OK. There are LOTS of things that can make warrior fun to ... without supporting nonsensical justifications that ALSO point out it should be nerfed. 

 

 

I actually think Warrior should not have CD to Switch weapons, the Weapon master should be able to use its weapons always since Warrior doesn't do much different from the other professions and deserves something  special this or having more weapons you can equip but that can't happen since the equipment UI has to be changed.

Why is it nonsensical to have a fun trait baseline that will give me more fun if it was, by giving me more options on how to play? 

Are you the FUN Police? 

[Vancho.8750]

2 minutes ago, Obtena.7952 said:

AGAIN, it's not nonsensical to have a fun trait baseline. AGAIN, I'm not arguing it shouldn't be. 

AGAIN, my problem is that the justification people are using to have FH baselined is the SAME ARGUMENT to nerf it. 

AGAIN, I can do this all day ... as long as you insist on not paying attention to what I'm saying to you and making up things to argue with me. 

 

Well you insist on something that I find that doesn't make sense, you haven't given me any good reason why it is a bad Idea, I have given several why it is good idea. 

[Obtena.7952]

3 minutes ago, Vancho.8750 said:

Well you insist on something that I find that doesn't make sense, you haven't given me any good reason why it is a bad Idea, I have given several why it is good idea. 

Good, because it's not my goal to convince you that FH baseline is a bad idea; it's irrelevant what I think is a good idea or not. What I am concerned about here is that people are making justifications for FH being baseline that are the SAME justifications to nerf it. 

Edited January 30 by Obtena.7952

[Leo G.4501]

On 1/29/2024 at 8:10 AM, Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

While I was clearing HoT on my cVirt yesterday I took the time to look at my F1-F5. The amount of power on those 5 skills dwarfs any single warrior burst (except maybe a fully stacked Dragon Slash Force in PvE). However, each of those had CDs ranging from 12s to 50s.

But you know what?

There is no reason why warrior cannot have a F1-F5 with CDs ranging from 10s to 40s or 50s. Or any number of F skills greater than 2...

• Move Berserk and Full Counter to F5, they would replace the core F5.
• Adrenaline now has 5 bars.
  • Berserk still requires 3 bars to use
  • Spellbreaker continues to only uses 1 bar at a time, and FC still cost 10 adrenaline, spellbreaker has adrenaline capped at 3 bars.
• F1 remains the current F1 unchanged.
• Each MH and 2H weapon gets a F2 and F3 added. Each OH and 2H gets an F4 and F5 added.
  • Each has a separate CD from the others, each consumes up to 3 bars of adrenaline at a time.
  • F2-F5 would be thematic to the weapon equipped, and with their CDs have appropriate effects based on 'Power Budgets (TM)'
• Bladesworn remains in a state of FUBAR until they rework it.

First of all, I still have no idea why they decided to add an F5 to virtuoso. Among a lot of questionable changes made to the profession, they didn't need to add distortion on top.

Second of all, if you don't like Bladesworn, don't play it. I only say this because when enough people whine about something, they often change it to something bland. Let me keep my samurai fantasy with all it's foibles. Do what you can for rifle instead.

Thirdly, that addition sounds like a nightmare. What does Berserker do with 3 extra buttons while in berserk mode? Does he get primal versions? If not, how does that interact with the single zerk bar? And if it's not stronger than the primal bursts, why does it even exist?

Fourthly, I could potentially see adding an off-hand burst baseline but it seems overly complicated if it's all relying on the adrenaline bar to take advantage of. I could see that being used well on spellbreaker but I'd personally prefer unique spec skills instead...like wouldn't it be better if I could just toss around a 600 range magebane tether on my F2? I also proposed a unique effect for SB that causes a target that gains boons to also gain conditions for each boon they gain, having another effect to cause all boons gained in an area to be shared (so boons enemies give themselves, you gain but also boons you give yourself you grant to the foe) just to use your other skills to rip those boons as a complex synergy that could build on another build option and all placed on the potential F3 (if every spec is getting an F1-3, SB could be getting an F4 there).

Fifthly, if every spec is getting an F1-4, you can just make the F3/F4 specific to the spec while F1/F2 are the main and offhand weapon. What could core War get on an F3 or F4? Maybe something that can utilize their adrenaline if they don't need to burst (like at the end of combat), say a unique effect that speeds up all their cooldowns or a burst of movement speed. Berserker could have a different version of zerk mode or something.

Speaking on power budgets, which who knows is even relevant now a days for balance, this is taking in the current drawbacks and limitations of the profession's mechanics. If they started making FH baseline or stopping adrenaline decay, who knows what they might choose to ever add or subtract from the class. 

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

11 minutes ago, Leo G.4501 said:

First of all, I still have no idea why they decided to add an F5 to virtuoso. Among a lot of questionable changes made to the profession, they didn't need to add distortion on top.

Yeah, that was a bad decision

11 minutes ago, Leo G.4501 said:

Second of all, if you don't like Bladesworn, don't play it. I only say this because when enough people whine about something, they often change it to something bland. Let me keep my samurai fantasy with all it's foibles. Do what you can for rifle instead.

I don't play it unless I want to solo tank something. What I would do though is make Gunsaber an elite 'kit' skill and put all of Dragon Trigger on F1-F5, tap F1-F3 to begin charging the relevant slash, tap again to release it. That would roll into that dynamic easily.

11 minutes ago, Leo G.4501 said:

Thirdly, that addition sounds like a nightmare. What does Berserker do with 3 extra buttons while in berserk mode? Does he get primal versions? If not, how does that interact with the single zerk bar? And if it's not stronger than the primal bursts, why does it even exist?

It could get three new primal bursts while in the mode, but Adrenaline caps within the mode may need looking at then.

11 minutes ago, Leo G.4501 said:

Fourthly, I could potentially see adding an off-hand burst baseline but it seems overly complicated if it's all relying on the adrenaline bar to take advantage of. I could see that being used well on spellbreaker but I'd personally prefer unique spec skills instead...like wouldn't it be better if I could just toss around a 600 range magebane tether on my F2? I also proposed a unique effect for SB that causes a target that gains boons to also gain conditions for each boon they gain, having another effect to cause all boons gained in an area to be shared (so boons enemies give themselves, you gain but also boons you give yourself you grant to the foe) just to use your other skills to rip those boons as a complex synergy that could build on another build option and all placed on the potential F3 (if every spec is getting an F1-3, SB could be getting an F4 there).

Yeah, and OH and extra 2H bursts at minimal. Proposing F1-F5 was just inspired by the fact that clearly another spec that requires integer amounts of a resource can do it, then there is no reason why warrior can't. I've advocated for at least a core F2 for a while now, but a core F2 and F3 with one of them replaced by the espec mechanic is perfectly possible.

11 minutes ago, Leo G.4501 said:

Fifthly, if every spec is getting an F1-4, you can just make the F3/F4 specific to the spec while F1/F2 are the main and offhand weapon. What could core War get on an F3 or F4? Maybe something that can utilize their adrenaline if they don't need to burst (like at the end of combat), say a unique effect that speeds up all their cooldowns or a burst of movement speed. Berserker could have a different version of zerk mode or something.

Sure. There is so much open design space there for warrior's profession mechanic that any of that could be possible.

11 minutes ago, Leo G.4501 said:

Speaking on power budgets, which who knows is even relevant now a days for balance, this is taking in the current drawbacks and limitations of the profession's mechanics. If they started making FH baseline or stopping adrenaline decay, who knows what they might choose to ever add or subtract from the class. 

That are really two separate lines of conversation. If FH was made baseline and adrenaline no longer decayed, then there would be less onus to look at Bursts, but there would still be an onus I think.

IMHO in a perfectly balanced world:

• FH made baseline at 5s
• Adrenaline no longer decays
• A core F2 that is the burst for OH weapons, and a second burst for 2H weapons is added. These would shore up shortfalls of existing weapons, will not share CDs. Certain adrenaline gaining traits would need to be revisited to account for the increased demand for adrenaline.

[KryTiKaL.3125]

3 hours ago, Obtena.7952 said:

That's a weird take: I didn't say Anet shouldn't make FHands baseline just because it's a trait so the idea that Illusionary Persona should have been nerfed instead of making it baseline makes no sense to me. But you know what's interesting is that this is a GOOD example of what I said earlier; Anet historically makes things baseline that are related to the class mechanic. That's why people are arguing with me that Weapon Swapping SHOULD be ANOTHER warrior class mechanic. 

 

 

Except weapon swapping on a low cooldown for faster access to each weapons Burst skill, which the entire class is effectively built around, can be viewed as being a vitally important aspect to Warrior's gameplay. Especially considering Warrior has everything essentially backloaded into their Burst Skills.

Also there are instances of a "Core" class having two defining elements of their Profession Mechanic that they gain benefits from:

Revenant has Legend Swapping and Energy both of which have traits related to them ranging from swapping Legends granting benefits or effects, or spending energy or maintaining upkeep granting benefits and effects.

Mesmer has their Illusions/Phantasms/Clones, with traits relating to generating more of them, gaining effects when generating them or gaining benefits for when they are active, as well as Shatters which also have effects gained from using them as well as modifications to the Shatter skills.

Necromancer, probably the "closest" to Warrior in regards to the Profession Mechanic area (generating a resource in combat to activate something) has Life Force and Shroud. There are traits that relate to generating Life Force, generating more of it and gaining effects from having certain thresholds of Life Force. A limited number, but they are there. Even one that gives passive Life Force generation up to a limited threshold when you're not in Shroud. They also have effects that you gain, quite heavily, from just entering/exiting or using skills in Shroud.

 

Now if you look at Warrior...the mechanic is basically just Bursts. Everything relates to it. Technically, yes, it is "Adrenaline and Burst skills" but we gain no benefits from building Adrenaline or hitting thresholds with Adrenaline other than "can use Burst skill", the entire mechanic is centered around Burst skills which backloads the entire class into that one mechanic. The only other thing present consistently in the traits on Warrior is weapon swapping; Gain Might on weapon swap, remove conditions on weapon swap, they even reworked an existing trait in Arms, Furious Burst, from triggering on Burst hit to triggering when you swap weapons. At this point "weapon swapping" is a part of the Profession Mechanic so an argument can be made that having a 5 second weapon swap cooldown on Warrior, just by default, could be a part of the Profession Mechanic. That is unless they want to rework Adrenaline to have triggers for effects and other benefits when hitting thresholds, which could be another solution to the issue of Warrior feeling outdated and hamstrung.

Obtena I respect you voicing your opinions, but I vehemently disagree with your consistency in defending ANet when criticisms appear as to how they handle things. It genuinely feels like you think they shouldn't get feedback or heed feedback from the community despite the many instances of them very much needing that feedback and when they listen to it things generally improve. The banner rework tragedy, the initial time gating of the Skyscale on its release, the many reworks to Berserker, the reworks to Mesmer (Mirage finally getting its second dodge back and Mirage Cloak finally won't activate while CC'd needed to happen 6 years ago), the changes to Revenant before HoT even released because of player feedback during its beta testing (they had no weapon swapping), Full Counter no longer triggering burst effects without even hitting anything, additions to WvW that made it difficult/impossible for Mesmers to just perma stealth hide after a keep/garrison was flipped so they could just portal their zerg right back in afterwards, and the list honestly goes on and on. Without player feedback on these fronts, nothing would have been done.

Now I know what your response might be; "well clearly that feedback fell within their vision so that is why they did it" This has nothing to do with that. No one cares about their "vision". They are given metric tons of feedback from players experiencing this game on a daily basis, is all of it the right kind of feedback? No, of course not, but there is plenty of feedback from well informed players who have at this point probably a decades worth of experience on any given class that can provide a wealth of insight, and whenever you roll into these threads with your perspective you essentially tell them to just stop doing so because "its not in ANets vision". You're basically telling people to just not even have the conversation. Thats how it feels, at least.

Sorry about the wall...

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

Best wall of text I've read in a while.

[Obtena.7952]

4 hours ago, KryTiKaL.3125 said:

Except weapon swapping on a low cooldown for faster access to each weapons Burst skill, which the entire class is effectively built around, can be viewed as being a vitally important aspect to Warrior's gameplay. Especially considering Warrior has everything essentially backloaded into their Burst Skills.

Also there are instances of a "Core" class having two defining elements of their Profession Mechanic that they gain benefits from:

Revenant has Legend Swapping and Energy both of which have traits related to them ranging from swapping Legends granting benefits or effects, or spending energy or maintaining upkeep granting benefits and effects.

Mesmer has their Illusions/Phantasms/Clones, with traits relating to generating more of them, gaining effects when generating them or gaining benefits for when they are active, as well as Shatters which also have effects gained from using them as well as modifications to the Shatter skills.

Necromancer, probably the "closest" to Warrior in regards to the Profession Mechanic area (generating a resource in combat to activate something) has Life Force and Shroud. There are traits that relate to generating Life Force, generating more of it and gaining effects from having certain thresholds of Life Force. A limited number, but they are there. Even one that gives passive Life Force generation up to a limited threshold when you're not in Shroud. They also have effects that you gain, quite heavily, from just entering/exiting or using skills in Shroud.

 

Now if you look at Warrior...the mechanic is basically just Bursts. Everything relates to it. Technically, yes, it is "Adrenaline and Burst skills" but we gain no benefits from building Adrenaline or hitting thresholds with Adrenaline other than "can use Burst skill", the entire mechanic is centered around Burst skills which backloads the entire class into that one mechanic. The only other thing present consistently in the traits on Warrior is weapon swapping; Gain Might on weapon swap, remove conditions on weapon swap, they even reworked an existing trait in Arms, Furious Burst, from triggering on Burst hit to triggering when you swap weapons. At this point "weapon swapping" is a part of the Profession Mechanic so an argument can be made that having a 5 second weapon swap cooldown on Warrior, just by default, could be a part of the Profession Mechanic. That is unless they want to rework Adrenaline to have triggers for effects and other benefits when hitting thresholds, which could be another solution to the issue of Warrior feeling outdated and hamstrung.

Obtena I respect you voicing your opinions, but I vehemently disagree with your consistency in defending ANet when criticisms appear as to how they handle things. It genuinely feels like you think they shouldn't get feedback or heed feedback from the community despite the many instances of them very much needing that feedback and when they listen to it things generally improve. The banner rework tragedy, the initial time gating of the Skyscale on its release, the many reworks to Berserker, the reworks to Mesmer (Mirage finally getting its second dodge back and Mirage Cloak finally won't activate while CC'd needed to happen 6 years ago), the changes to Revenant before HoT even released because of player feedback during its beta testing (they had no weapon swapping), Full Counter no longer triggering burst effects without even hitting anything, additions to WvW that made it difficult/impossible for Mesmers to just perma stealth hide after a keep/garrison was flipped so they could just portal their zerg right back in afterwards, and the list honestly goes on and on. Without player feedback on these fronts, nothing would have been done.

Now I know what your response might be; "well clearly that feedback fell within their vision so that is why they did it" This has nothing to do with that. No one cares about their "vision". They are given metric tons of feedback from players experiencing this game on a daily basis, is all of it the right kind of feedback? No, of course not, but there is plenty of feedback from well informed players who have at this point probably a decades worth of experience on any given class that can provide a wealth of insight, and whenever you roll into these threads with your perspective you essentially tell them to just stop doing so because "its not in ANets vision". You're basically telling people to just not even have the conversation. Thats how it feels, at least.

Sorry about the wall...

Except this isn't feedback ... it's just people not thinking about the consequences of what they are saying. You can explain all the benefits of  Fast Hands being baseline all you like. That's not the problem I have. I'm not denying it would be an improvement; I agree with many of the things people say about how FH baseline would impact the class.

My problem is that there ain't no way people are going to sell FH being baseline as a must-have trait in a must-have traitline WITHOUT considering that it could be nerfed for the SAME reason. 

You people keep explaining to me things I already know and understand. What's happening is that people are NOT receptive to the idea that they are selling a NERF for FH. They just don't want to hear it. That's completely WEIRD considering how we KNOW Anet isn't adverse to nerfing OP'ed traits ... bur sure, everyone keep saying how OP'ed FH is ...  

Edited January 31 by Obtena.7952

[KryTiKaL.3125]

38 minutes ago, Obtena.7952 said:

Except this isn't feedback ... it's just people not thinking about the consequences of what they are saying. You can explain all the benefits of  Fast Hands being baseline all you like. That's not the problem I have. I'm not denying it would be an improvement; I agree with many of the things people say about how FH baseline would impact the class.

My problem is that there ain't no way people are going to sell FH being baseline as a must-have trait in a must-have traitline WITHOUT considering that it could be nerfed for the SAME reason. 

You people keep explaining to me things I already know and understand. What's happening is that people are NOT receptive to the idea that they are selling a NERF for FH. They just don't want to hear it. That's completely WEIRD considering how we KNOW Anet isn't adverse to nerfing OP'ed traits ... bur sure, everyone keep saying how OP'ed FH is ...  

This is not why people are being so resistant to what you're saying.

Again, you're not realizing that the way you frame your points essentially makes it look like you're telling people to not give the feedback, it isn't that they are not understanding that by the same token where they sing the virtues of FH being made baseline that it could equally be nerfed because of them, it seems as if they are not understanding why you're bringing this up in the first place because, again, all it looks like you're doing is telling people to just not have the conversation.

You can talk about FH being made baseline and the benefits of that while also being able to talk about any changes to Adrenaline as a Profession mechanic that could instead be made, which is exactly what is also happening in this thread and there are other threads present that are doing similar. People are trying to make points and provide explanations as to why this feels necessary for Warrior, much like what I elaborated on in my previous...very long post.

You cannot expect people to respond to you in a way that you may particularly like when it seems like every single time feedback hoping for positive change for Warrior is brought up you show up and seemingly try to slap it down with proclamations of ANet's vision, or philosophy, or ideas as reasons why it would never happen or should never happen. You're not promoting people giving productive feedback, the way things look to them is that you're telling them to just not give the feedback at all. That is quite literally all I ever see you do in this particular section of the forums, and only once have I ever seen you provide your own feedback in regards to the Warrior class in particular back in 2019 or so I believe, and I would say that thread actually proceeded as an actual conversation for once. Yet when it comes to those who frequent this section of the forums enough have seen Lan, or Cryorion, or Fueki, or Leo, or GamerToad, or gmmg, or Zef all post threads or post in threads giving tons, and tons of feedback for many, many years now you seem to almost always show up and want to stop the conversation.

You can disagree with the point of making FH baseline, that is entirely fine, but at the very least show you're listening to the people on the other side of the discussion. Which would be a very nice experience considering ANet themselves don't seem to be listening.

[cryorion.9532]

2 hours ago, Obtena.7952 said:

Except this isn't feedback ... it's just people not thinking about the consequences of what they are saying. You can explain all the benefits of  Fast Hands being baseline all you like. That's not the problem I have. I'm not denying it would be an improvement; I agree with many of the things people say about how FH baseline would impact the class.

My problem is that there ain't no way people are going to sell FH being baseline as a must-have trait in a must-have traitline WITHOUT considering that it could be nerfed for the SAME reason. 

You people keep explaining to me things I already know and understand. What's happening is that people are NOT receptive to the idea that they are selling a NERF for FH. They just don't want to hear it. That's completely WEIRD considering how we KNOW Anet isn't adverse to nerfing OP'ed traits ... bur sure, everyone keep saying how OP'ed FH is ...  

Ok, Anet nerfs FH, and so what? It isn't that lame things didn't happen in the past... it will take another year or two before they find out warrior is lacking something and then another few months to actually do something. And I am even being generous. Why are you so concerned about FH being nerfed? You are right, that Anet could interpret us wanting FH baseline (because warrior is just too good with it) as a reason to nerf it but given the state of the profession, they could also make it baseline instead. If they want to improve the profession, it is one of the options.

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

8 hours ago, cryorion.9532 said:

Ok, Anet nerfs FH, and so what? It isn't that lame things didn't happen in the past... it will take another year or two before they find out warrior is lacking something and then another few months to actually do something. And I am even being generous. Why are you so concerned about FH being nerfed? You are right, that Anet could interpret us wanting FH baseline (because warrior is just too good with it) as a reason to nerf it but given the state of the profession, they could also make it baseline instead. If they want to improve the profession, it is one of the options.

FWIW if they did nerf FH, then we would all just run Relic of the Warrior and still have a 5s weapon swap...