Ranger and wvw

[anduriell.6280]

On 3/9/2024 at 9:27 AM, Dawdler.8521 said:

Yeah I assumed he meant more about how one build rather than weapons and skills. Because it's quite noticable. I've seen rangers facetank pretty much anything with insane sustain. 

Then when I'm on my hunters call downright abusive condi puker even if it's in condi bunker gear... it's like wearing bloody berserkers. 3200+ armor is literally not doing anything, enemies cut through you like it's butter because your traits and skills are all aimed at that bomb. You make up for it with a slight smile when you see enemy hp bars drop like a rock (extra laughs for them approaching on mount) and I think the highest I've seen so far in terms of PvE damage is about 18000 poison tick and 10000 bleed tick on a tower lord, but still.

Well that sustain is coming from celestial set and still very far from sustain you can get  in other cele builds in other classes. Nothing to do with the ranger class i am afraid. Still those ranger builds hit like a wet noodle compared to other classes in similar cele builds. 

You are judging a class because of something external instead of the mechanics. This reminds me to the trapper ranger build wich worked because of the stealth on trapper runes. Now that effect is gone i wonder how many people still uses traps offensively. The issue with the ranger as a hole is the class mechanics which needs to be revisited in almost every single skill. 

The comment from @Dadnir.5038 just sounded like anet devs sure  think about the ranger. I won't go into details but every single point he brought is wrong as the skills, and i feel i am repeating myself a lot latelty with this point, may look decent or even good in the wiki description but everysingle one of them are simply broken in a bad way at some point which makes the skill or weapon clunky at best.   

As i have said many times: Ranger needs somebody who  plays with the class to take over the fixes. Ideally a main so that person understands what is actually going on with it because by reading the wiki descriptions you won't go anywhere. 

Edited March 12 by anduriell.6280

[Gotejjeken.1267]

On 3/9/2024 at 3:43 AM, Dadnir.5038 said:

I won't comment on everything because I do think this single quote most of the things you easily dismiss for other skills/weapon.

I'm confused--are you basing your argument around Hammer? Do you think hammer is a good defensive weapon? If so, where, and who is using it?

And then...

On 3/9/2024 at 3:43 AM, Dadnir.5038 said:

So here we go: "Necromancer's whole defensive system revolve around those few things that you dismiss in this single weaponset and yet the playerbase tend to find them to meaty."

Are you saying hammer is equal to say Reaper? As Reaper is the most potent melee necro spec. 

In general, how does a ranger actually go on the defensive? I will tell you any top ones I've played do it two ways, either stealth, or a bunker build using healing spring like this:

On 3/9/2024 at 1:59 AM, Oahkahmewolf.6210 said:

Anyways thought I share this with you guys, I know some people have fought me previously in WvW or dueled me or came across me in Spvp, people who have fought me can tell you how much I abuse the crap of healing spring... its also because most of my builds are pure melee which tend to have a lot of leaps and blasts, so Ranged Rangers might not necessarily see the value of it. 

But they are nerfing healing spring (condi cleanse amount, water field duration, etc.), getting rid of the Druid trait that enables builds like this, and getting rid of any stability outside elites and Dolyak.  

So again, we're left with bursts from stealth and also using stealth as escape mechanism.  The problem with that is the hit and run nature--doing damage becomes very difficult against any competent team, as are finding openings.  

Literally fought against Rom this evening and let me tell you, the "defenses" of hammer are nothing compared to what can be pulled off with stealth and Sw/Wh + GS.  Besides Eura, Rom is probably the best ranger player on NA--I would think they would balance around that (or Boyce over on EU).  Fighting against them though, hammer was a strict liability--for the reasons I mention in the quote above, it's too easy to kite and then just get destroyed.   

Anyway, at present they seem to balance around the bunkers which can and do get outplayed at very high levels (via CC); problem is the class mechanics aren't meant to bunker.  We're like ele with a half working pet and no aura spam and slightly more HP if you actually want to kill anything.  It's pretty rough out there.  

[Dadnir.5038]

1 hour ago, anduriell.6280 said:

The comment from @Dadnir.5038 just sounded like anet devs sure  think about the ranger. I won't go into details but every single point he brought is wrong as the skills, and i feel i am repeating myself a lot latelty with this point, may look decent or even good in the wiki description but everysingle one of them are simply broken in a bad way at some point which makes the skill or weapon clunky at best. 

My comment put into light the fact that the devs balance around budgets (something they clearly stated). The sustain budget is built around many active and passive effects that actually healp the character survive a fight. If one want to be unkillable as a ranger in WvW, all the tools are there to use. In fact it's been done by players many time since game release.

• Protection and weakness reduce incoming damage, you can't possibly deny this simple fact.
• Block, strike damage immunity and evade nullify incoming damage, again you can't deny such simple fact.
• Barrier and self-heal are sustain tools that do help you survive and ranger do have those in it's toolkit.
• Stealth is the main survival tool of the thief and yet you seem reject the idea that ranger can actually use it to survive as well.
• Hard CC prevent your foes from hitting you.
• Gap opener prevent a foes from spanking you at melee range.
• The pet can take damage for you either through shout or simply by body blocking.
• ... etc.

15 minutes ago, Gotejjeken.1267 said:

I'm confused--are you basing your argument around Hammer? Do you think hammer is a good defensive weapon? If so, where, and who is using it?

Are you saying hammer is equal to say Reaper? As Reaper is the most potent melee necro spec. 

In general, how does a ranger actually go on the defensive? I will tell you any top ones I've played do it two ways, either stealth, or a bunker build using healing spring

I am no basing my argument around Hammer specifically.

Hammer is indeed a good defensive weapon when used with survivability in mind.

I'm not saying that hammer is equal to reaper. I'm saying that necromancer only rely on health points, weakness and protection to survive and that the majority of the playerbase still find them hard to kill. The ranger have access to all those tools and more.

As to "how ranger go on the defensive?", that actually requiert a conscious effort from the player that control the character. Something you seldom find nowaday, which might be why you haven't seen anyone doing it. Long time ago, we called people doing such a thing "skilled players".

Edited March 12 by Dadnir.5038

[Mell.4873]

Atleast my Reaver (Carrion poison build) and Untamed Arrow Cart are not being nerfed and are amazing in WvW. 

[Beddo.1907]

53 minutes ago, Mell.4873 said:

Atleast my Reaver (Carrion poison build) and Untamed Arrow Cart are not being nerfed and are amazing in WvW. 

"Untamed Arrow Cart" and "amazing" are such a weird combo. Amazing at what? Tagging players as you do nothing of worth?

[Kazze.8405]

4 hours ago, Dadnir.5038 said:

My comment put into light the fact that the devs balance around budgets (something they clearly stated). The sustain budget is built around many active and passive effects that actually healp the character survive a fight. If one want to be unkillable as a ranger in WvW, all the tools are there to use. In fact it's been done by players many time since game release.

• Protection and weakness reduce incoming damage, you can't possibly deny this simple fact.
• Block, strike damage immunity and evade nullify incoming damage, again you can't deny such simple fact.
• Barrier and self-heal are sustain tools that do help you survive and ranger do have those in it's toolkit.
• Stealth is the main survival tool of the thief and yet you seem reject the idea that ranger can actually use it to survive as well.
• Hard CC prevent your foes from hitting you.
• Gap opener prevent a foes from spanking you at melee range.
• The pet can take damage for you either through shout or simply by body blocking.
• ... etc.

I am no basing my argument around Hammer specifically.

Hammer is indeed a good defensive weapon when used with survivability in mind.

I'm not saying that hammer is equal to reaper. I'm saying that necromancer only rely on health points, weakness and protection to survive and that the majority of the playerbase still find them hard to kill. The ranger have access to all those tools and more.

As to "how ranger go on the defensive?", that actually requiert a conscious effort from the player that control the character. Something you seldom find nowaday, which might be why you haven't seen anyone doing it. Long time ago, we called people doing such a thing "skilled players".

I understand, you say that the bow ranger is self-sufficient to survive in close combat against the rest of the classes? If you say this you have no idea. Take a revenant with a bow, shoot with a bow while you have hammers, tell me who is approaching you?take a thief with permanent stealth, as they said in another message. Prove what you say and record a video in world vs world of more than an hour without cuts and show that without groups, you fight alone against others, show that the ranger with a bow survives in combat when they attack you in melee. Don't read the wiki or what the skill says, it shows that the ranger with a bow survives.

It's a reality, ranger with a bow needs to get it checked

Edited March 12 by Kazze.8405

[Mell.4873]

5 hours ago, Beddo.1907 said:

"Untamed Arrow Cart" and "amazing" are such a weird combo. Amazing at what? Tagging players as you do nothing of worth?

I chain Ambush with Signet of the Hunt to boon strip Zergs so I wouldnt call that tagging. 

[Oahkahmewolf.6210]

6 hours ago, Beddo.1907 said:

"Untamed Arrow Cart" and "amazing" are such a weird combo. Amazing at what? Tagging players as you do nothing of worth?

 

5 minutes ago, Mell.4873 said:

I chain Ambush with Signet of the Hunt to boon strip Zergs so I wouldnt call that tagging. 

What mellz said, I litterally was about to post this. ^

Just to add Quickdraw on top of that and you can just barrage consistently.

[Mell.4873]

35 minutes ago, Oahkahmewolf.6210 said:

 

What mellz said, I litterally was about to post this. ^

Just to add Quickdraw on top of that and you can just barrage consistently.

Pretty much, seems to the better of the two types of arrow cart. Soulbeast might have more damage output but you are able to chain more things together with Untamed. You also have much better escapes on Untamed with super speed while Soulbeast has a one direction movement merge skill. 

[anduriell.6280]

10 hours ago, Dadnir.5038 said:

My comment put into light the fact that the devs balance around budgets (something they clearly stated)

Sure Dadnir I am convinced they use those. But my point is those budgets are usually defined in base of the wiki descriptions which do not match how the skills actually work in combat. 
So using the wiki descriptions to account for those budgets do not work at least for the ranger. 

[Gotejjeken.1267]

11 hours ago, Dadnir.5038 said:

As to "how ranger go on the defensive?", that actually requiert a conscious effort from the player that control the character. Something you seldom find nowaday, which might be why you haven't seen anyone doing it. Long time ago, we called people doing such a thing "skilled players".

Reaper requires you to have conscious effort? Are we playing the same game here? I'm unsure if you are aware, but the power creep for necro is through the roof atm.  

8 hours ago, Kazze.8405 said:

It's a reality, ranger with a bow needs to get it checked

Agreed, but in this very topic we have arrow cart ranger cope going on--need a united front against that frankly dumb idea the devs created.  

[Mell.4873]

On 3/13/2024 at 10:18 AM, Gotejjeken.1267 said:

Agreed, but in this very topic we have arrow cart ranger cope going on--need a united front against that frankly dumb idea the devs created.  

Hey what's wrong with the Arrow Cart build. I have even had a few successful Duels with it since you stealth and reposition like a Deadeye. 

Edited March 14 by Mell.4873

[Widebody.5071]

On 3/12/2024 at 4:00 AM, Mell.4873 said:

Atleast my Reaver (Carrion poison build) and Untamed Arrow Cart are not being nerfed and are amazing in WvW. 

Make them standup and notice you right? 😉

[jahaan.1405]

I'm just extremely disappointed at how slow the longbow is to take down an opponent. Yes I know longbow is not effective in close and I switch to close in weapons like mace and horn. What I don't like is it takes so long to reduce an enemies health with a longbow compared to say a Revenant with a short bow. Stacked guild boons negate the effectiveness of a longbow. I've actually fired at enemies and not reduced their health at all. I thought a longbow was supposed to be a deadly long distance weapon, not in WvW. I haven't had the chance to see how well longbows work in a group of them because teamwork is always lacking on my server. (That's another subject.) I guess I'm making the mistake of wishing longbow was based off the historic longbow. I have seen some good suggestions in this thread and I will try them out.

[Bastrii.3047]

On 3/9/2024 at 3:43 AM, Dadnir.5038 said:

The point is that ranger is packed full with defensive tools

"Packed full of defensive tools"

Oh no, please, go on. Compare our defensive tools to any other profession. I'm waiting.

[Dadnir.5038]

Just now, Bastrii.3047 said:

"Packed full of defensive tools"

Oh no, please, go on. Compare our defensive tools to any other profession. I'm waiting.

I already did, you just had to read a few more lines.

[CETheLucid.3964]

You either build ranger to be incredibly offensive or incredibly defensive and they'll do well enough in that niche. Building between is just being a free bag for other classes that build one way or the other (or a never ending stalemate until the lesser offense guy screws up; IE you) and do it easier and with more nonsense than ranger ever has.

This is an issue of extremes in general however and what a learned population does. People that (still) play these game modes are veterans of the game, meta maxed, no fun allowed, and the new guy dipping his toe in the water is just going to get shredded. That's how competitive game modes are. Before you can get good, you will be bad.

No one gets a curated competitive experience.

No amount of balancing will fix a skill issue. WvW still has a decent population so maybe the server end will work out well enough to match guilds of similar skill levels since worlds are being done away with. And even within that framework players will be looking for a way to influence and abuse the system to get it to match them with weaker players.

As they did before with the world system. As they will always do. People like winning and hate losing.

Anyway, if you want to 'fix' PvP, just add copious amounts of boon hate to everyone except for guardian and rev. Grab some popcorn. Wait. Forever. Because it won't happen, but it would be hilarious.

'guise this game is so bad now its just boon apply and boon rip i hate it so boring pls bring back boon ball that was the best ;(((('

😏