WvW World Restructuring Beta Feedback and Future

[Dawdler.8521]

59 minutes ago, Korgov.7645 said:

Are you able to rollback the WR beta forever?

No I’m certain that if the WR algorithm is completely broken and randomly assign people Anet will go “Damn. We didn’t think of that. Oh well, let’s just delete WvW since we can’t revert. They’re really into PvE anyway, no one will notice”.

[paws.5369]

Not sure if already been asked. But is there any intention or mention anywhere about adding more ranks to the in-game guild panel?
My alliance is current at max limit in ranks and I prefer to keep organised rank per guild and should imagine others are having same issue.

[Korgov.7645]

7 hours ago, Dawdler.8521 said:

No I’m certain that if the WR algorithm is completely broken and randomly assign people Anet will go “Damn. We didn’t think of that. Oh well, let’s just delete WvW since we can’t revert. They’re really into PvE anyway, no one will notice”.

I keep thinking back the PvE megaservers beta they were not able to rollback and just decided to leave it on.

[Dawdler.8521]

8 minutes ago, Korgov.7645 said:

I keep thinking back the PvE megaservers beta they were not able to rollback and just decided to leave it on.

They ”just decided to leave it on” because the game was literally dying as the initial release rush of players had long died down. On my server we couldn’t even do world events. Too few players (with not comparable strength to classes buffed to the skies since).

This has been the death of so many other MMOs.

Roleplayers not being able to gather their little server clique in DR was… acceptable losses.

[asha.4159]

Before 14th June are we getting UI to show which guild members have set the WvW guild as their 'WvW guild' to stay with you at relink? That would REALLY HELP us WvW guild leaders to remind people and to purge member that dont follow you.

 

At the moment in our WvW guild they get a manually verified Rank that they had followed you after relink. Current communication on Discord and the message of the day are our ways to remind our guildies too.

[multiwickingerhabich.9867]

They should rather organize a expedition to stop it like in other games because it will just be boring and frustrating for everyone. I can well imagine that the guilds will start with kill checks like in PvE and new players will have no chance. Anet should backtrack and leave it as it is now, that the servers stay the same. Anet should rather move a lot more PvE achievements to the WVW like it was years ago, that people also have to take everything in WVW to explore the whole of Tyria and the WVW as it was back then. I cannot understand what Anet is planning by destroying the community.

[Nugatory.8920]

World restructuring is so dumb. It fixes none of the existing problems the game mode has. In my opinion it will probably cause the existing problems to get worse. The main reason servers end up outnumbered isn't because they lack players, it's because their players aren't playing because they don't want to get one pushed by stronger servers. World restructuring won't be able to balance skill. The best guilds will attract the most skilled players, only now it will be easier to recruit skilled players as they get shuffled around. On paper that sounds good, but in reality the same problems we have now will persist. It's rare to have even fights in WvW. Usually, one team dominates the other. Most players don't want to play when they know they are likely to get smashed. My prediction is that once the shine wears off and players figure out who the strong guilds are - and who they need to dodge - the fight content will continue to dry up. The players who like WvW for the action will continue to leave the game and WvW will end up as eotm 2.0.

 

Anet are wasting the little time and resources they dedicate to WvW to rearange the deck chairs on a sinking ship. If GW2 were released today an Alliance like system would be a fantastic idea. A system like it would encourage the player base to create their own content. But WvW is an old game mode, is there really the enthusiasm needed within the player base to drive the change? I don't think so.

 

There are much bigger problems that need urgent addressing. For instance, the balance sucks. Across the board - from small-scale to blobbing - the game is in the worst state it's ever been in. An absolute brain dead spamfest. And unfortunately, I think it's intentional. This World restructuring scheme reeks to me of doing something for somethings sake. A desperate attempt at fulfilling an overdue promise. Too little, too late.

[XenesisII.1540]

3 hours ago, Nugatory.8920 said:

My prediction is that once the shine wears off and players figure out who the strong guilds are - and who they need to dodge - the fight content will continue to dry up. The players who like WvW for the action will continue to leave the game and WvW will end up as eotm 2.0.

Actually we already know who the strong guilds are..... and people still feed them like lemmings....

[Dawdler.8521]

18 hours ago, Nugatory.8920 said:

The main reason servers end up outnumbered isn't because they lack players, it's because their players aren't playing because they don't want to get one pushed by stronger servers.

Hmmm… what could solve that.. hmmmmmmmm… maybe some kind of “autobalance” system that shuffles the players around to be a little more random instead of fixed and stacked monolithic servers that no one want to fight month after month, year after year?

I know, you could even add support for grouping up before shuffling!

We could call it… the Club System. 

[Nugatory.8920]

3 hours ago, Dawdler.8521 said:

Hmmm… what could solve that.. hmmmmmmmm… maybe some kind of “autobalance” system that shuffles the players around to be a little more random instead of fixed and stacked monolithic servers that no one want to fight month after month, year after year?

I know, you could even add support for grouping up before shuffling!

We could call it… the Club System. 

Perhaps reading the rest of what I had wrote would have helped you in understanding what my opinion was before you scurried to your keyboard to make a sarcastic reply.

It was a long comment so I can understand it may have been hard for your attention to stretch that far. My apologies for that, I can tend to ramble.

World restructuring doesn't fix the problem of players not wanting to fight overwhelming opposition. Whether players are grouped under a server based system or a guild based system, it will be the same players, and the best players will gravitate toward each other and become known. In fact, world restructuring will make it easier for the better players to group together. At the same time unaffiliated players will lose the structure of the communities - such as commanders and familiar playstyle (compositions, tactics, etc) - that the server based system has provided them. Whether the best players are grouped on servers or in guild based teams is irrelevant to how they will be regarded and players will avoid playing them if they know they are going to get stomped. I believe as the system progresses this will mean less fight content and the fight content we do have will actually end up being more imbalanced.

What is the point of world restructuring? Is it Balanced match-ups? My argument is that it cannot achieve that goal because of the free association of players. In fact my opinion is that a guild based system will accelerate the concentration of player talent leading to more imbalanced match-ups and less overall combat. 

I understand that the game mode has become stale and that some people want change regardless. But I believe change for changes sake in this scenario will actually make the target of this solution - imbalance- worse not better.

[Dawdler.8521]

9 minutes ago, Nugatory.8920 said:

What is the point of world restructuring?

The point was in the reply but maybe the sarcasm just hid it so kitten well, sorry.

If your argument is that there should be no guilds and only solo players all being randomly assigned instead in order for it to truly achieve its goal... I dont think many people would appriecate that for some reason. But maybe that's just me.

[Nugatory.8920]

32 minutes ago, Dawdler.8521 said:

The point was in the reply but maybe the sarcasm just hid it so kitten well, sorry.

If your argument is that there should be no guilds and only solo players all being randomly assigned instead in order for it to truly achieve its goal... I dont think many people would appriecate that for some reason. But maybe that's just me.

I don't often write on forums for many reasons, one of those being because I dislike interaction with forum dwellers. It's a futile experience akin to bashing ones head against a wall.

I do read the forums however and I've read many of your comments. There are so many that it makes them hard to avoid. They almost all follow the same bad faith template; pick a sentence to reply to, strawman the argument, frustrate your fellow interlocutor into walking away, win Internet points? It doesn't seem very productive to me. However it's a slow Sunday morning so here we are.

It is not my argument that match making should be comprised of solo players. Although that is a solution that would result in the most balanced teams, it is clearly a solution that nobody would want. Why would you represent my position as one nobody would want? 

My position is that world restructuring will result in further imbalance.

If we can attempt to have a discussion in good faith for a moment, I believe the difference of opinion between people who want WR and those who do not stems from what the perceived outcomes of the changes will be.

I believe WR advocates see a future where small to medium sized guilds make up the majority of the blocks to be considered and that these blocks will be easier to shuffle and find balance.

My position is that the problem with this solution is player behaviour. Players want to win and they will even degrade their own experience to achieve victory. I believe that over time what we will see is max capacity sized guilds as a proxy for servers. Except they will be hand picked by players. Where players join a mega guild to manipulate their match-ups as they see fit, but play in their regular guild on the day-to-day.

I also believe that WR will drive away unaffiliated players. If you haven't joined a guild by now you are probably not interested in doing so. These unaffiliated players are unlikely to want to play with a revolving door of fellow players because they will constantly have to be familiarising themselves with ever changing conditions and be at a bigger disadvantage than they are now. It will feel like they are being presented as food for the organised groups to eat.

[Dawdler.8521]

1 hour ago, Nugatory.8920 said:

If we can attempt to have a discussion in good faith for a moment

The good faith discussion evaporate the instant a reply turns into a rant/attack on the person instead of the argument/thread. So that ship already sailed.

[rwknoll.7824]

13 hours ago, Nugatory.8920 said:

I'm guessing you're going to try but fail.

You made an attempt, I guess. But you also added a bunch of fluff.

All I am saying is players want to win and they will abuse systems to do so, even if it makes their experience worse. In my opinion World Restructuring is open to abuse.

Saying I failed to reach a point, after just writing one of the points I made seems a little silly of you. But let's continue.

Ok. I suppose I did "throw verbal crap", when people "throw verbal crap" at me like misrepresenting what I have written or responding sarcastically, I respond in kind.

I never wrote that Anet should "fix WvW to perfection". That's a foolish thing to ask for. You're putting words in my mouth to make my position seem ridiculous. My position is that sometimes doing nothing is better than doing something. Especially when something will cause further problems.

You finish this paragraph with throwing some more of your own "verbal crap" and strawmanning. 

In this paragraph you manage to stop strawmanning and there's no "verbal crap". Impressive, you must be evolving. 

What you wrote here should be the meat of the discussion. This is where we disagree.

I never wrote anything about loss of identity. It is an argument made by other people who don't want WR, but not me. For me, it's not the identity I worry about but rather continuity. As it stands unaffiliated players get used to the way their servers play, how their commanders lead, what classes they usually need to bring, what times they are likely to find a squad, what discords they need to be on, etc. Even with relinks there is a foundation they become familiar with. My argument is that with WR unaffiliated players will lose that continuity and be less likely to play.

I don't know why you go on to make much importance of names. It's certainly not a concern of mine.

Tier 1,2,3 friendships? Not really sure what this is about. Perhaps you were running out of steam by this point?

The final paragraph. Hallelujah! It's where you will sum up my point and rebutt it, destroying me with facts and logic!

Oh, you fail from the very first sentence. How dissapointing.

My criticism isn't that "this won't change anything". My criticism is that these changes will make WvW worse.

I'm not saying there should never be changes. I'm saying in this case the changes shouldn't be made.

Then you go on to put words in my mouth and present my position as wanting perfection and saying I don't want any change. Again, not true. 

I'm not sure whether it's reading comprehension, or if I'm not making my point clearly enough that is the problem here. 

Regardless, it's no longer a lazy Sunday and I have better things to do with my time. 

Fortunately for you it seems Anet is intent on making these changes. Over the next months we will see how it plays out.

 

Posts like this are painful to read. Please critique ideas without resorting to critiquing other people. As a community, we need to do better than this. 

[Chaba.5410]

On 6/5/2024 at 7:08 AM, asha.4159 said:

Before 14th June are we getting UI to show which guild members have set the WvW guild as their 'WvW guild'

Unfortunately no.

They mentioned adding that feature back in the March post about WvW.  They said: "We don’t have a definite timeline on these yet, but we will share updates as we have them."  There have been no updates since about that feature.

https://www.guildwars2.com/en/news/wvw-world-restructuring-beta-feedback-and-future/

Edited June 12 by Chaba.5410

[Chaba.5410]

On 6/8/2024 at 4:07 AM, Nugatory.8920 said:

The main reason servers end up outnumbered isn't because they lack players, it's because their players aren't playing because they don't want to get one pushed by stronger servers.

Yea, no.  What makes you believe that there is only a singular reason behind why population fluctuates in an MMO over time?  Other MMOs don't have WvW yet still have server merges.

With this graph you can see the real main reason behind why Anet first implemented server links and are now finishing the job with WR.  This graph is not a result of players not wanting to get one pushed, but the natural fluctuations over time as players come and go or transfer for more activity.  We didn't even have today's current skill balancing back then when this disparity developed.

https://i.imgur.com/1uFZPf9.png

It comes from this dev post:

 

On 6/8/2024 at 4:07 AM, Nugatory.8920 said:

World restructuring won't be able to balance skill.

Where did you get the idea that WR is supposed to address skill balance.  This seems like a red herring.

 

On 6/8/2024 at 4:07 AM, Nugatory.8920 said:

There are much bigger problems that need urgent addressing.

Complete red herring.  Different development teams even.

 

Edited June 12 by Chaba.5410

[Lionwait.4815]

On 6/8/2024 at 4:07 AM, Nugatory.8920 said:

World restructuring is so dumb. It fixes none of the existing problems the game mode has.

It actually makes it harder for people that have more than one account to spy on enemy commander locations. So, I wouldn't say it doesn't fix any existing problems.  I'm quite excited for the changes. I've been stuck on a dead server forever. So, when I hear all this talk about community, I roll my eyes because one needs people to play with to have such a thing. Don't get me wrong I've tried the whole transfer server thing but just took me out of a dead server into another dead server. Because of these changes my guild mates are getting back into WvW because we can play together. Where before we were all on different servers. I just think you are confused on what is killing WvW. It's the boon ball meta that is killing WvW. And finally, I feel that GW2 is turning out to be true to its name. The game is called Guild Wars 2. Not server wars 2.

Edited June 13 by Lionwait.4815

[XenesisII.1540]

21 minutes ago, Lionwait.4815 said:

And finally, I feel that GW2 is turning out to be true to its name. The game is called Guild Wars 2. Not server wars 2.

But the mode is called World vs World vs World..... and guild wars already existed inside of it...

 

[TheGrimm.5624]

3 hours ago, Lionwait.4815 said:

It actually makes it harder for people that have more than one account to spy on enemy commander locations. So, I wouldn't say it doesn't fix any existing problems.  I'm quite excited for the changes. I've been stuck on a dead server forever. So, when I hear all this talk about community, I roll my eyes because one needs people to play with to have such a thing. Don't get me wrong I've tried the whole transfer server thing but just took me out of a dead server into another dead server. Because of these changes my guild mates are getting back into WvW because we can play together. Where before we were all on different servers. I just think you are confused on what is killing WvW. It's the boon ball meta that is killing WvW. And finally, I feel that GW2 is turning out to be true to its name. The game is called Guild Wars 2. Not server wars 2.

How were on a dead world and your guildmates were scattered across servers at the same time? Glad this will be fixing that for you. Did you join a guild that was already on a full server during links and the guild still recruited people on other links?

[Lionwait.4815]

50 minutes ago, TheGrimm.5624 said:

How were on a dead world and your guildmates were scattered across servers at the same time? Glad this will be fixing that for you. Did you join a guild that was already on a full server during links and the guild still recruited people on other links?

I started on the server Crystal Desert and had a friend that pulled me to Kaineng and then he changed his mind again about moving to another server, but I said let's just waiting for alliances to be released. Then one week later the world restructuring would announced to go live full time on the 14th of this month. So, in the end it all worked out.

[TheGrimm.5624]

8 hours ago, Lionwait.4815 said:

I started on the server Crystal Desert and had a friend that pulled me to Kaineng and then he changed his mind again about moving to another server, but I said let's just waiting for alliances to be released. Then one week later the world restructuring would announced to go live full time on the 14th of this month. So, in the end it all worked out.

TY for the reply.

 

[ninao.1208]

At first sight, I'm not liking this wvw restructuring... it's annoying, but maybe with time I'll change my mind.

[Anyula.7213]

Worst beta ever. 

[SolarWind.5693]

@#$#@ you Anet. This is just as stupid and terrible as I knew it was going to be. I really hoped I was wrong. I was not. Zero understanding of WvW. I may check in at another time but may not. Honestly do not know if I will come back. Ruined the one good thing in this game.

[Hermanblob.5739]

Queue Wars 2 world restructure