WvW World Restructuring Beta Feedback and Future

[Mabi black.1824]

57 minutes ago, Zok.4956 said:

Part of this loss can be offset if they join a large "server community guild".

I wish I could believe it. But it won't be enough. Even if you group under an umbrella guild, you have to consider that every 4 weeks you will find yourself positioned in a different environment. with different people around you every time. It's not like when a beta version ends and you go back to your house. Your home no longer exists. A public container that you can enter or choose no longer exists. How can you build a spirit of belonging or shared participation of a team that keeps changing around you and your group of friends, rather than your server guild.

[Dawdler.8521]

3 hours ago, Mabi black.1824 said:

How is it possible that a football team of 11 players has the power to fill a stadium of 80,000 fans? Rubi, that's the right question. Don't ever forget it. The keywords here are. Choice - Team spirit - Participation - Suffering when you lose together with your teammates - Joy when you win together with your teammates. And again: differences - character - pride.  That's the fertile ground where you've built this game mode. This is why you've been dragging such a large number of players across 4 measly maps for over 10 years.

if you don't understand this. if you don't consider all of this valuable. There's no hope for WVW's future. And it's so hard for me to say it because you know how much of a fan I am of this game mode.

And what would the refs say when that team brings in 30 people instead of 11 and say “hey it’s all fair for us to play against 11 on the other team, we can still fit on this field!”? 

And the 80000 cheer them on.

Back in reality, there are actually very strict rules on sports team compositions and how the matches are played no matter what both the team and fans think.

So this remain a meh comparison. 

[Mabi black.1824]

15 minutes ago, Dawdler.8521 said:

And what would the refs say when that team brings in 30 people instead of 11 and say “hey it’s all fair for us to play against 11 on the other team, we can still fit on this field!”? 

And the 80000 cheer them on.

Back in reality, there are actually very strict rules on sports team compositions and how the matches are played no matter what both the team and fans think.

So this remain a meh comparison. 

This is exactly why some players have called WVW ''magical' the spirit of belonging, feeling represented and feeling that they represent a server/team is precisely that stuff that makes it ''special''. It works because it's special to you, on an individual level, it's the choice that you've made, and this thing is amplified enormously, when it's shared with everyone else, when you discover that others have also chosen like you. That's why the stadiums fill up.

[ascii.1369]

1 hour ago, Mabi black.1824 said:

I wish I could believe it. But it won't be enough. Even if you group under an umbrella guild, you have to consider that every 4 weeks you will find yourself positioned in a different environment. with different people around you every time. It's not like when a beta version ends and you go back to your house. Your home no longer exists. A public container that you can enter or choose no longer exists. How can you build a spirit of belonging or shared participation of a team that keeps changing around you and your group of friends, rather than your server guild.

As far as I can tell that already happens. Guilds and commanders switch server on a fairly regular basis and teams keep being reshuffled through server linking.

If anything the new system will give you more stability, assuming you join a large community guild. If I remember correctly, a full guild will make up the majority (or all?) of a team. So your environment will be more stable than the current server environment with guilds and commanders constantly switching around.

Edited March 26 by ascii.1369

[Zok.4956]

3 hours ago, Mabi black.1824 said:

I wish I could believe it. But it won't be enough.

I wrote “part of this loss” because it is obviously not an equivalent replacement for a “server identity”. But that's what's left. You can be sad about it, or angry, and complain. But it won't change the result because Anet will replace the WvW servers with the new system. So you should try to adapt as best you can. 

In the end, each player will answer the question for themselves as to whether they will still have fun (even if perhaps less than in the past) in WvW with the new system. And whether the remaining fun is still enough to keep playing.

Anet does the whole thing so that there is a more balanced population. In the short term there will be chaos (as in the betas), but it is not entirely impossible that the population balance will at some point be better than in the past. And so that the loss of server identities can perhaps be overcome a little better by these improvements.

 

2 hours ago, ascii.1369 said:

Guilds and commanders switch server on a fairly regular basis

Some do, some don't.

 

[Zok.4956]

4 hours ago, RisingDawn.5796 said:

At least 10 years ago  there was the last wvw tournament,  which mattered as there were bigger core server communities.

Anet ended this for at least two reasons and did not host any further WVW tournaments after that.

• Week-long matchups take way too long, many players felt burnt out trying to get enough coverage for a whole week - because the servers with better coverage had big advantages.
• Unfair rewards - players can try as hard as they want, but if they're on the wrong server, they'll only get the loser's rewards.

At that time Anet realized that WvW was not suitable for real competitions and tournaments.

 

[Mabi black.1824]

59 minutes ago, Zok.4956 said:

In the end, each player will answer the question for themselves as to whether they will still have fun

I completely agree with you Zok. it's just being frustrated to highlight something you should see easily. So you expect that we should avoid it, as we want to squeeze right in the middle.

[SlateSloan.3654]

looking into the future again^^

Dr. Emmett Brown seems to work in Seattle.

Edited March 26 by SlateSloan.3654

[TheGrimm.5624]

6 hours ago, ascii.1369 said:

As far as I can tell that already happens. Guilds and commanders switch server on a fairly regular basis and teams keep being reshuffled through server linking.

If anything the new system will give you more stability, assuming you join a large community guild. If I remember correctly, a full guild will make up the majority (or all?) of a team. So your environment will be more stable than the current server environment with guilds and commanders constantly switching around.

We might need a refresher from Anet after the statements of Alliances on hold, but actually the idea was an Alliance would be a fraction of a server and not a majority. Alliances would be sorted, then guild then individual players. Guilds and Alliances would both be capped at 500. 

[dexteerz.1753]

On 3/22/2024 at 1:00 PM, Rubi Bayer.8493 said:

Learn more about the feedback from the last WvW World Restructuring Beta and what's next!

 

I don't know if anyone from Anet will see this comment, but I'll leave it to reinforce an important point:
I would love to see these changes and improvements implemented, but I still believe they could focus on solving the Skill lag issues during big Zergs, or internet trace issues that only happen with Guilds Wars in WvW.

Edited March 27 by dexteerz.1753

[ascii.1369]

On 3/26/2024 at 6:47 PM, TheGrimm.5624 said:

We might need a refresher from Anet after the statements of Alliances on hold, but actually the idea was an Alliance would be a fraction of a server and not a majority. Alliances would be sorted, then guild then individual players. Guilds and Alliances would both be capped at 500. 

Right, what I remembered was the fact that a single guild can make up the majority of an alliance (or all of it, but in that case you wouldn't make an alliance i guess). But I think the general point still stands. I doubt anyone has a community larger that 500 people on there server right now. I would be surprized if anyone had even just 100 other WvW players they can reference by name.

Edited March 28 by ascii.1369

[Mabi black.1824]

1 hour ago, ascii.1369 said:

Right, what I remembered was the fact that a single guild can make up the majority of an alliance (or all of it, but in that case you wouldn't make an alliance i guess). But I think the general point still stands. I doubt anyone has a community larger that 500 people on there server right now. I would be surprized if anyone had even just 100 other WvW players they can reference by name.

The general point here on which we should try to build our reasoning/comparison of different opinions is that WVW is a team game.Each team must have a number and a 'functional' size which we are told revolves around 2000 players. That's the format of 'team' that goes up against other similar teams. Now if we choose that these teams are composed of single fragments, rather than fragments of 50 players  or 100 players or 200 players up to a limit of 500 players .Then add that every 4 weeks the fragment you are part of will be repositioned to constantly build different teams, can you explain to me how I can identify myself in a team? How can I feel that that's 'my team''? How can you think that the interest of all the fragments within that team will be able to build a common action? A shared action? How can they trust each other? When did they win and especially when did they lose? At best your team, will your server community be reduced to a community fragment of 100 players? 200? And at that point? How do we want to build the competitive comparison, if we're still talking about large-scale PvP between all these fragments? What is the long-term perspective? 4 weeks?

The player will be deprived of confrontation with his opponents. The player will be deprived of the opportunity to choose a team, participation, motivation, involvement, together with pride and team spirit will suffer yet another and very hard blow.

Now forget everything for a moment. Erase WR from your mind. And let's pretend that WVW's development says, you know what we set out to do? Keep WVW for what it is. A team game mode. And we want to actively ensure with all the changes that will be needed that all teams are of similar size, we will do a general reset ( WR )  change the transfer mechanics and the manipulation of the dishonest player will no longer be allowed. WVW will assume a 1-year seasonal format. Within each season we will offer a summer and a winter seasonal tournament. Two official competitive events, for a completely revamped large-scale PvP game mode.

Wouldn't you also be a little more intrigued and stimulated by this latest version?

Edited March 28 by Mabi black.1824

[XenesisII.1540]

1 hour ago, ascii.1369 said:

Right, what I remembered was the fact that a single guild can make up the majority of an alliance (or all of it, but in that case you wouldn't make an alliance i guess). But I think the general point still stands. I doubt anyone has a community larger that 500 people on there server right now. I would be surprized if anyone had even just 100 other WvW players they can reference by name.

Think VIP is like the only guild that has like 3 guilds for 1300-1500 players. No one else I've seen claim to have more than 500 players, doubt there's much that could claim they even have 100 active players.

Sometimes I think people think way too big when it comes the 500 cap. Probably because of the fact people keep throwing around 2k as the server size, they somehow forget that's for the amount of players that cover 24 hours, you really only get to interact with a small portion during your own time zone. Most players don't speak or play with 3/4 of their server, so why fret about having your entire server with you in alliances. 🤷‍♂️

[ascii.1369]

3 hours ago, Mabi black.1824 said:

Then add that every 4 weeks the fragment you are part of will be repositioned to constantly build different teams, can you explain to me how I can identify myself in a team? How can I feel that that's 'my team''? How can you think that the interest of all the fragments within that team will be able to build a common action? A shared action? How can they trust each other? When did they win and especially when did they lose? At best your team, will your server community be reduced to a community fragment of 100 players? 200? And at that point? How do we want to build the competitive comparison, if we're still talking about large-scale PvP between all these fragments? What is the long-term perspective? 4 weeks?

You would simply identify with your Guild/Alliance instead of your server. As I said, I would be very surprized if you could name even 100 players on your server. All the other nameless faces already don't matter. They're only part of your team in theory, in practice you never interact with them anyway.

Edited March 28 by ascii.1369

[hedix.1986]

Joy of yet another day of linking single-language servers with international ones. screen in link

[Bunny.9834]

They need to speed up the process of this world reconstructing because the last two match ups had been miserable for our server.

We constantly fight against servers with 24/7 coverage. 

[Mabi black.1824]

On 3/28/2024 at 7:21 PM, ascii.1369 said:

You would simply identify with your Guild/Alliance instead of your server.

At the moment the reason, the purpose, the why I should identify with my Guild/Alliance is missing, today you do it with your server because you build your comparison on a large scale compared to the other servers. Questionable comparison, and in fact we are here to leave our criticisms for this precise reason, so that the competition is more credible. If your reference is to be your guild, it's like giving up confrontation forever in a PvP game mode. it doesn't work. Because my guild is 50 players and your guild is 500 players. Every confrontation is broken even before it is a confrontation.

[ascii.1369]

1 hour ago, Mabi black.1824 said:

it's like giving up confrontation forever in a PvP game mode. it doesn't work

Actually that is exactly how every PvP game has worked ever. Matchmaking puts you on a team with other people, pitting you against another team that was created the same way. And for every match you play, you get new teammates/opponents. It's litteraly how all ranked PvP games work. And it's no accident that PvP ladders are being implemented like that to this day, because it works. The Server thing in WvW was an experiment that simple didn't work out long term. Matchups have been kitten for a long time and I would rather have them fix that, than give me some imaginary identification with a server name that doesn't impact my gameplay at all.

Edited April 15 by ascii.1369

[XenesisII.1540]

14 hours ago, ascii.1369 said:

Actually that is exactly how every PvP game has worked ever. Matchmaking puts you on a team with other people, pitting you against another team that was created the same way. And for every match you play, you get new teammates/opponents. It's litteraly how all ranked PvP games work. And it's no accident that PvP ladders are being implemented like that to this day, because it works.

The Server thing in WvW was an experiment that simple didn't work out long term. Matchups have been kitten for a long time and I would rather have them fix that, than give me some imaginary identification with a server name that doesn't impact my gameplay at all.

WvW isn't arena pvp, it isn't battlegrounds, it's RvR. Everyone seems to think you're suppose to have equal teams at all times like those, but RvR is massive in size and therefore it's hard to have equal teams at all times. The experimental part and mistake Anet made was thinking they could add a points system as the main reason for realms/servers to win, and you simply cannot run a competitive game with uneven teams, imagine trying that in real life sports, it would be a complete mess. No other RvR games uses a points system for good reason.

If you want to use a points system then you use arena or battlegrounds, if you want the massive scale siege battles that lasts for days then you use a different "scoring" system like objective capture or bonuses, like planetside or daoc, or you make the points to the individual levels like trying for Emperor in ESO.

Once WR comes in you wouldn't even need the points system, you just randomize all matches every week, they just need to add more interesting objective game play and bonuses. And no Anet, boon balling isn't the answer.

[Mabi black.1824]

20 hours ago, ascii.1369 said:

It's litteraly how all ranked PvP games work

You have already partially replied xen. WVW is not like everyone else. The matches are weekly and the teams revolve around a number of 2000 players (at least that's what Anet claims, although personally I suppose they are much less, almost half). A team game in competition with each other. This is literally how WVW was designed. This is why it is more beautiful than the others. Is it perfect? no.  It has proven to have a number of problems. Have they ever been seriously addressed? no. So what do we want to talk about? How to make a new game mode? Or how to improve this game mode? Help me understand.

Edited April 16 by Mabi black.1824