WvW World Restructuring Beta Feedback and Future

[apharma.3741]

1 hour ago, Ignavia.7420 said:

How about having Edge of the Mists give the normal WvW rewards once the regular maps fill up (plus some buffer)?

I'd like to second this, let people who want rewards karma train around edge of the mists like they once did. Also let event rewards be earned there too otherwise you get the same queue problem during these half kittened events that only serve to draw in people who care about rewards over gameplay.

[Arewn.2368]

Regarding the EU communication issues:
Try looking at what games such as FFXIV have done to offer tools for multi-lingual communication.

It can as simple as a list of pre-set, auto-translated words/phrases that are common to the WvW environment. This would not resolve the issue, but it can go a long way in alleviating it.

A simple example:

Typing "Bluebriar needs defenders", when using the auto-translate feature, would appear as "Bruyazur a besoin de défenseurs" for French clients. And would like-wise be translated to other supported languages based on the what language the players has their client set to.

[XenesisII.1540]

21 minutes ago, Arewn.2368 said:

Regarding the EU communication issues:
Try looking at what games such as FFXIV have done to offer tools for multi-lingual communication.

It can as simple as a list of pre-set, auto-translated words/phrases that are common to the WvW environment. This would not resolve the issue, but it can go a long way in alleviating it.

A simple example:

Typing "Bluebriar needs defenders", when using the auto-translate feature, would appear as "Bruyazur a besoin de défenseurs" for French clients. And would like-wise be translated to other supported languages based on the what language the players has their client set to.

Was thinking about this the other day when someone brought up chat shorts from the blish mod. You can type shortcuts for sentences, dunno how customable it is but maybe you guys can give it a shot and see. Although I expect to start seeing spam if you need to spit out scout calls in like 3-4 different languages.

https://blishhud.com/modules/?module=Nekres.Chat_Shorts

I would also recommend people use shorter precise calls, as I mentioned in my scout thread. Saying "bluebriar needs defenders" doesn't say much in the first place, stating something more universal like "swt" "blue/green/red" "numbers" (in whatever language as long as you keep repeating it as such for others to get use to it), would be easier for everyone to pick up on. People tend to use too many other descriptions in their calls that are not needed or are too vague. Same thing goes for commanding over there I'm sure, some of them use the same commands over and over for everyone to pick up on it.

Anyways that's all I will say since EU doesn't like me being up in their business.

[HotDelirium.7984]

On 3/22/2024 at 10:49 AM, Gehenna.3625 said:

To be honest, I have lost all faith in this World Restructing process. I get that it's tricky but I'm starting to feel this is a big waste of time now. I mean how long have we had those betas? You announced WR in 2018 and I think the betas started in 2021. And it still feels like we're at ground zero pretty much. 

And yeah, because of the queue issues that you rightfully do point out, I get why you don't want to put a date on the next beta, but that's kinda underlines point. My feeling is that WvW is so complex and there's so much that can go wrong in this mode, that you'll keep finding issues upon issues and just going around in circles till you finally have to admit that it's not going to work.

It's amazing how a mode that has just 4 maps can be so difficult to adapt and in the meantime there are many other things in WvW that need to be addressed that stay ignored. Now, don't get me wrong, I do appreciate the intent behind all of this but to me it feels like you're spending an inordinate amount of time on something that isn't even the biggest issue.

 

 

Cut them some slack they have one person working on it. :3

[Cameirus.8407]

that casual dismissal of player concerns about loss of community was a slap in the face

Community is important, its an MMO, people like their servers, they know commanders and guilds, they have discords, they know people to run with even if not in a guild.

this whole thing, which seemed to have universal negative reaction in game, (and open celebration in map chat when servers were restored) and a negative forum reaction, is a very bad idea for the game. its catering to a very small number of wvw players who want the game to be some sort of uber competitive environment, which its not, and which most more casual players dont want.
Those hardcore players are a minority and will whinge no matter what Anet does. they have whinged since launch.

provide a parallel guild v guild battle system, and make edge of the mists worth playing.

thats all you needed to do...

 

oh and if you want to at least TRY to preserve communities...then ditch the 6th guild slot and assign everyone on their current servers to a "server guild" in that slot..

Edited March 23 by Cameirus.8407

[Lion.6590]

On 3/23/2024 at 12:54 AM, joneirikb.7506 said:

From what I've read, transferring from Eu <-> Na requires actually moving files from one server to another. It's been a while since the last time I did this, but iirc it took some time before you got moved over (I want to say about an hour, but I don't remember any longer). Since they have to move the database of your account from the hard-drive to the other server-clusters hard-drive. I don't know if there's any actual manual work to this or if it's entirely automated though.

Still, this means that guesting won't work, since that's within the same server-cluster (the way all worlds within say EU works).

It depends, some stuff are on EU and others are on NA, I was even told once that NA servers are "closer" to EU avoid increasing latency for EU players on certain services, trading post is an example of that, it is completely hosted on NA. 

But in general, transfers already are quite fast, the client tells you that you might need to wait sometime before you can login after a transfer but I have never seen or experienced any delay, transfers always happened in less than 30 seconds for me. Probably with guesting feature and the possible income of players moving more frequently, some delay could show up which is why I said to set a cooldown before you can move back again.

I really hope the devs think about that because it would allow a lot of flexibility for players to play with their friends in another region, I understand with fees need to exist and even restrictions for WvW and cooldowns to not stress the servers, but I really hope this can become a thing. Games like FFXIV are going to test a guesting for cross region and if things goes alright this will become a permanent feature, from what I heard it will be possible to guest from NA to Oceania servers which is crazy given how famous Square Enix is for having a terrible servers infrastructure, so I really believe that GW2 servers and Anet can achieve something like this without much problem.

 

Edited March 24 by Lion.6590

[RisingDawn.5796]

The queue bug reoccurs multiple tines, when there are multiple queues, which are all real queues, unless less it's visually bugged.

So they should be able to figure out, why it is occurring. 

Edited March 25 by RisingDawn.5796

[ascii.1369]

On 3/24/2024 at 12:09 AM, Cameirus.8407 said:

 

oh and if you want to at least TRY to preserve communities...then ditch the 6th guild slot and assign everyone on their current servers to a "server guild" in that slot..

Seems to me if you can’t get your server to join a WvW guild voluntarily and instead need ANet to force them into one, maybe the number of people who will miss their server isn’t that great.

[Mabi black.1824]

''Several players have expressed a feeling of loss of community with the World Restructuring system. While we understand that this departure from the longstanding WvW server system will have some negative impacts, World Restructuring provides a regular redistribution of players that is critical to the long-term health and balance of the game mode. We are aiming to provide tools and options for you to create and maintain robust communities within the new structure.''

Dear Rubi, this is the only real big problem with WR. You're underestimating it, and you're putting it off with future 'options' to help build community. This issue definitely deserves a more in-depth discussion.

Edited March 25 by Mabi black.1824

[ascii.1369]

2 hours ago, Mabi black.1824 said:

Dear Rubi, this is the only real big problem with WR. You're underestimating it, and you're putting it off with future 'options' to help build community. This issue definitely deserves a more in-depth discussion.

I know that this was addressed to Rubi, but I’ll just get the discussion started in the mean time.

I genuinely don’t understand the issue. If there really is a community of players who want to play together it’s easy enough to use the additional guild slot to make a community guild. And if you can’t get people to join your community guild, maybe it’s not really a community. Maybe it’s just random people who’s name or guild tag you recognize but don’t actually know.

Not trying to be a kitten, I just genuinely don’t understand what these communities are that supposedly exist right know but somehow can’t be  transferred into a community guild.

[Dawdler.8521]

On 3/24/2024 at 12:09 AM, Cameirus.8407 said:

that casual dismissal of player concerns about loss of community was a slap in the face

Community is important, its an MMO, people like their servers, they know commanders and guilds, they have discords, they know people to run with even if not in a guild.

this whole thing, which seemed to have universal negative reaction in game, (and open celebration in map chat when servers were restored) and a negative forum reaction, is a very bad idea for the game. its catering to a very small number of wvw players who want the game to be some sort of uber competitive environment, which its not, and which most more casual players dont want.
Those hardcore players are a minority and will whinge no matter what Anet does. they have whinged since launch.

provide a parallel guild v guild battle system, and make edge of the mists worth playing.

thats all you needed to do...

 

oh and if you want to at least TRY to preserve communities...then ditch the 6th guild slot and assign everyone on their current servers to a "server guild" in that slot..

Of course the self proclaimed “casuals” will complain, a major reason we are in this mess is because of stacked worlds with certain favoured commanders/“communities” and their fans going wherever they are.

[Mabi black.1824]

1 hour ago, ascii.1369 said:

I genuinely don’t understand the issue. If there really is a community of players who want to play together it’s easy enough to use the additional guild slot to make a community guild

The first key part of this problem that you don't understand is that WVW is a team-based PvP game. The scoring and ranking (with all the issues we know well) is based on teams/servers. If every 4 weeks we remake the teams, what is the point in the medium/long term?

The other key aspect is that the server or the team is an environment/container guaranteed by Anet (or at least it should be) while the umbrella guild is run by a normal player, and all the drama that goes with it 

And finally, not to mention all that part of ''invisible'' players, those who don't go on forums to complain, those who don't join the team and follow closely, those who don't stand out but who make a difference. That's a lot of players and we act like they don't exist.And if you're expecting their gratitude because you're going to use them as filler, well what can I tell you.... wishes.

The day you turn off the switch on our teams, it will be a very sad day for this game mode. It's not a matter of understanding, it's more a matter of feeling.

Edited March 25 by Mabi black.1824

[Dawdler.8521]

47 minutes ago, Mabi black.1824 said:

If every 4 weeks we remake the teams, what is the point in the medium/long term?

Well what’s the point of any balance at all long term if WvW is just about any communities you want?

Current WvW would still be WvW if 95% of the EU population was on WSR and 5% was scattered on the rest, wouldn’t it? They can still fight. Just one bad matchup for the 2 meeting WSR but I mean come on… that just one of the matchups. No problems. The rest is fine. 

[Fifth.8169]

Why do we need 6 guild slots? I’m in 5 guilds now and they are all dead with no one speaking. What community???, seems like more fragmentation. MMOs now are just full of  really old single adults and no one bothers with map chat unless they have something bitter or demoralizing to say… at least that’s the case in pve and pvp

Edited March 25 by Fifth.8169

[Dawdler.8521]

27 minutes ago, Fifth.8169 said:

Why do we need 6 guild slots? I’m in 5 guilds now and they are all dead with no one speaking. What community???, seems like more fragmentation. MMOs now are just full of  really old single adults and no one bothers with map chat unless they have something bitter or demoralizing to say… at least that’s the case in pve and pvp

The 6th slot is a quick and easy solution for those who doesn’t want to use one of the 5 for their “alliance” guild because it’s all filled with PvE and bank guilds or whatnot. It has no negative impact for people that doesn’t use it. Bitter indeed.

[RisingDawn.5796]

On 3/25/2024 at 12:32 PM, Mabi black.1824 said:

The first key part of this problem that you don't understand is that WVW is a team-based PvP game. The scoring and ranking (with all the issues we know well) is based on teams/servers. If every 4 weeks we remake the teams, what is the point in the medium/long term?

The other key aspect is that the server or the team is an environment/container guaranteed by Anet (or at least it should be) while the umbrella guild is run by a normal player, and all the drama that goes with it 

And finally, not to mention all that part of ''invisible'' players, those who don't go on forums to complain, those who don't join the team and follow closely, those who don't stand out but who make a difference. That's a lot of players and we act like they don't exist.And if you're expecting their gratitude because you're going to use them as filler, well what can I tell you.... wishes.

The day you turn off the switch on our teams, it will be a very sad day for this game mode. It's not a matter of understanding, it's more a matter of feeling.

Deso has alot of players, who just cloud around, join chatmanders on EBG and they just cause queues. Although, I can understand to a degree, some will feel left out, but those players shouldn't have a problem being shuffled around.

In the end, they have to make an effort, to join their community, while they can still play as a Random pug. It's just not run around on their own, with any open tag clouding, which they can do anywhere, under no server.

The problem is communities, completely closed off and doing their own thing, but they are free to play how they want to play, in an more organized way, if they don't  neglect the rest of the player population. 

Edited March 26 by RisingDawn.5796

[Leger.3724]

Call of War needs to be removed when testing or it needs to be made permanent and advertised to bring an influx of players.

I'm not a fan of announcing restructuring testing, giving massive increases in rewards to people who probably won't stick around and then using information from the inflated populations playing rewards to inform how you will create alliances or megaservers or whatever.

[DobyCool.3701]

On 3/22/2024 at 2:52 PM, TheGrimm.5624 said:

This one has come up and did alot when EotM was added and players were throwing around ideas on how it could be included in scoring. The issue was with maps that open to just take in populations encourages servers and rewards them to not only stack, but stack a time zone.  An overpopulated server or time zone could just open more maps then others making the matches worse for the sides that didn't have as many for that time zone. The queues are partially meant to control this as well. Want to stack a time zone, you can but that will mean people waiting in line to get in.

Now granted a lot of the queue issues are our various queue bugs. The WR itself if it ends up working as stated should in the end create enough worlds to also keep a group from over stacking a given world.

1 thing to note tho is that making a match between 2 different time zone is a bad idea in the first place.  Each team in their own time zone will have no good fight since their enemies are all in bed.  Altho it might be good if you only care about wvw exp and rewards. An overpopulated server is unhealthy in any means, they need the WR, but maybe they can do a bit more than that, or maybe it is just too much work.

[DobyCool.3701]

On 3/22/2024 at 3:04 PM, XenesisII.1540 said:

They already have it, it's called EOTM, they just need to bother updating it to current wvw standards, no one goes there because queues aren't a major problem as they only last an hour or two every night if at all for some servers, and it has no skirmish rewards which is the main reason many play wvw in the first place these days.

Maybe they will after WR and if queues become a regular thing for more than a hour a day.

I dont know how other people think, but the current queue system for wvw just sucks. If I am in pve zone waiting, I will be probably doing some meta events, or maybe golem training, but I can't change character otherwise I had to queue again.  same issue if i am in wvw zone, I am playing some roaming class in some un-queue map, since most likely there isn't a big group to fellow alone.  and when I get in to the queued map, there will be no chance for me to change to a team fight or support class.  

Edited March 25 by DobyCool.3701

[TheGrimm.5624]

24 minutes ago, DobyCool.3701 said:

I dont know how other people think, but the current queue system for wvw just sucks. If I am in pve zone waiting, I will be probably doing some meta events, or maybe golem training, but I can't change character otherwise I had to queue again.  same issue if i am in wvw zone, I am playing some roaming class in some un-queue map, since most likely there isn't a big group to fellow alone.  and when I get in to the queued map, there will be no chance for me to change to a team fight or support class.  

This is another of those I go back and fourth on. Waiting in line just to find out you need another toon or class for the current map state. On one side it moves the line along so if a player makes a bad call its on them and someone else gets to head in. On the other, I could see a new function that allows you to swap one toon for another in a limited window state, lets say 60 seconds. That would require a new function and UI, which adds a complication on to it as well as means potentially longer lines until they get the AFK issue addressed. I think the AFK issue would need to be addressed first and see how much that helps with queue sizes first and then consider a function that allows players to swap. 

[XenesisII.1540]

2 minutes ago, DobyCool.3701 said:

I dont know how other people think, but the current queue system for wvw just sucks. If I am in pve zoom waiting, I will be probably doing some meta events, or maybe golem training, but I can't change character otherwise I had to queue again.  same issue if i am in wvw zoom, I am playing some roaming class in some un-queue map, since most likely there isn't a big group to fellow alone.  and when I get in to the queued map, there will be no chance for me to change to a team fight or support class.  

That's why you preplan your trip into wvw if you're going in at prime time/reset when queues are present.

If you have a guild raid, or expect to pug zerg coming up then get on your usual class, most classes have roam/support/zerg specs to use now and we have templates so it's really easy to switch roles.

If you're only there to screw around on whatever solo then log in whatever.

[TheGrimm.5624]

1 hour ago, Leger.3724 said:

Call of War needs to be removed when testing or it needs to be made permanent and advertised to bring an influx of players.

I'm not a fan of announcing restructuring testing, giving massive increases in rewards to people who probably won't stick around and then using information from the inflated populations playing rewards to inform how you will create alliances or megaservers or whatever.

I will try and play the half-full cup poster since its a virtual world and why not, its a Monday, and no one really likes Mondays IRL. We can hope that part of these rush weeks is to gather info to separate the bonus from the WR pop gains. 

As far as the bonus, I think the funniest comment last week was someone saying wow the rewards out here are terrible, another asked are you new to WvW and they said yes. That brought a lot of laughs. 

[Mabi black.1824]

16 hours ago, RisingDawn.5796 said:

Deso has alot of players, who just cloud around, join chatmanders mostly on EBG and just cause queues.

Don't have a limited view of the desolation and there's no point in judging others. Are you having fun? Yes? Then we're good to go. I'm not interested in judging others. How they participate, how they form a group, how they propose their content etc etc. I really take a step back, because I don't care.

 

16 hours ago, RisingDawn.5796 said:

In the end, they have to make an effort, to join their community, while they can still play as a Random player.

I'm interested in this. Because we know what happens in the end. You'll lose them eventually. Just the fact that you have to force them to do something they don't want to do is the answer to the same question. And I don't understand why we have to make an update of this mode that inevitably ''excludes'' a part of players. It shouldn't make sense to invest in development to talk about 'exclusion'' as opposed to a large-scale PvP game, and a team-based one at that. It should include teams and should be as inclusive as possible. If you don't give me the opportunity to identify myself and choose my team, it doesn't work.

How is it possible that a football team of 11 players has the power to fill a stadium of 80,000 fans? Rubi, that's the right question. Don't ever forget it. The keywords here are. Choice - Team spirit - Participation - Suffering when you lose together with your teammates - Joy when you win together with your teammates. And again: differences - character - pride.  That's the fertile ground where you've built this game mode. This is why you've been dragging such a large number of players across 4 measly maps for over 10 years.

if you don't understand this. if you don't consider all of this valuable. There's no hope for WVW's future. And it's so hard for me to say it because you know how much of a fan I am of this game mode.

Edited March 26 by Mabi black.1824

[Zok.4956]

20 hours ago, Mabi black.1824 said:

The first key part of this problem that you don't understand is that WVW is a team-based PvP game. The scoring and ranking (with all the issues we know well) is based on teams/servers. If every 4 weeks we remake the teams, what is the point in the medium/long term?

The server communities will be replaced by (alliance) guild communities. Players who already belong to a (large) guild that regularly switches between servers/teams will probably hardly notice any difference. But players who are still part of a large server community will lose part of their identity. Part of this loss can be offset if they join a large "server community guild".

But about scoring: It hardly matters who wins or loses. Even now. Because on many servers “day capping” and “night capping” is completely normal. Because the number of players differs so much at different times of the day/night.

 

[RisingDawn.5796]

4 hours ago, Zok.4956 said:

The server communities will be replaced by (alliance) guild communities. Players who already belong to a (large) guild that regularly switches between servers/teams will probably hardly notice any difference. But players who are still part of a large server community will lose part of their identity. Part of this loss can be offset if they join a large "server community guild".

But about scoring: It hardly matters who wins or loses. Even now. Because on many servers “day capping” and “night capping” is completely normal. Because the number of players differs so much at different times of the day/night.

 

He just thinks random players, not in the servers community guild or main guilds, who just join squads that aren't organized on voice etc, will feel out is they would get shuffled around.

So that adds to the meaningfulness of winning too, as alot of those players, don't  interact with the community that much too.

They might contribute, if it doesn't effect the amount of kills and points generated, but generally between this system and WR, winning won't matter, unless the rewards are better than they are, rather than server pride like 10 years ago.

At least 10 years ago  there was the last wvw tournament,  which mattered as there were bigger core server communities.

Edited March 26 by RisingDawn.5796