PvP Discussion: Matchmaking and Leagues

rwolf.9571 · January 2, 2018

That kinda disheartening to read if most matches are only 50 rating points off, and that 7/10 matches are blowouts.I wish you could do something about unranked mm also. Nothing worse than trying to learn a new class, Only to face the same 3-5 man premade of Legendary and Platinum players trolling, farming ppl there. (3 games in a row no less.)

If mm and balance aren't enough pushing players away, it's also a good portion of the player base actively pushing it further being toxic, and trolling.

My experience so far is basically blaming RNG aspect of MM now. I don't blame my teammates, I don't blame balance. 1 Team will be significantly better than the other.I don't know if you can fix matchmaking with such a low population. I've probably seen the same 2-4 people in the span of a half dozen matches.

Frozenblade.6039 · January 2, 2018

As Albert Eistein once said “Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results.”Correct or not, these are my honest, out of the box and constructive opinions.

Imbalanced matchmaking system can improved in the middle and long run, if corrective and out of the box steps taken.

In addition to resource races, capture the flag and warfare battlegrounds must be added to the PvP system.
These grounds can include 8vs8, 10vs10, 12vs12 or 15vs15.
With these battles, new rewards must be implemented. Battleground specific armor or weapon sets, achievement tags, a brand new leader calculating boards, etc..
This will result in a player base increase.
If we want to get a healty matchmaking system, we must first find a way to lure more players into the PvP system.
Don't need to mention, introduction of 10vs10 or 12vs12 battles will greatly reduce the imbalance issues caused by one or two below the average skill player in your team. Hence, it will also increase the chances, the other team also has similar number of below average skill PvP players.
The PvP has somewhat balance between melee and ranged fights, when we take out AoE and DoT damage of certain classes. AoE and DoT damages must come to a balance.
In addition to this, over healing and over blocking must also normalized. This is also creating quite a big imbalance issue.
It will make more sense if LoF lord HP scales with attacker numbers on it. In any given circumstance, only very exceptional skill players can solo him. This map scale can get a little bigger (with total 4 points) and convert into 8vs8 or 10vs10 play.
Most of the points in any given map, openly favoring the AoE classes. This must come to some balance, if you want to create some variety to the long-time ongoing tactics of these maps. In the end of the day, maps getting older and player got bored to do the same stuff all the time.

Link.1049 · January 5, 2018

This works until people jump on their alt's and gum up the system. Your highest end players complain about how long it takes to get in a match, because the only people in their league are them, and their other accounts.

@"Twyn.7320" said:As a Gold T2/T3 player, I'd totes like to think I'm the idea of an 'average player' in the PvP Matchmaking System, so I hope my throwback idea reflects a few people's opinions.
Basically, I've read every comment here, and yah, it took a while to understand everything in the technical aspects of 'algorithms' and things like that. However, a lot of the complaints seem to boil down to a very simple: 'Don't allow duplicate classes on the same team, match-making is too random, winning a game is a lottery'. So, a very controversial idea: Why not put Team Queue back into Ranked, with a lock to one person playing a single class per team, and you can only queue with team members that are within 250 rating of you? I can already hear the hissing and 'this didn't work before so we removed it!' but seriously, it'd actually solve quite a few of the issues mentioned above.
Originally, it was removed because people believed it was unfair for one team to have full voice comms and co-ordination, while the other team was made up of random people making the game unbalanced. However, isn't this the point of an MMO? Making friends, making groups, creating teams and talking to people to complete a similar objective? It's more of an issue and discussion of 'game identity'. Is GW2 a game where people will work together to achieve the same goal and make friends along the way? Or is it a game that's convenient but lacks the co-operation of other MMOs, causing systems to not work as intended?
Also, with the rating restriction, it'd encourage people to improve in PvP to play with friends that are higher rated. And maybe, they'll create more bonds with new people, and climb divisions with different people than they started with. There are so many instances where we have 3 people in a group, and we have to make the decision as to who drops out so the other two can have fun, leaving the one person alone to sit around and play with their thumbs. How is this actually helping the game's longevity? With this in mind, it's no wonder that some people are becoming disillusioned with PvP (along with the balance patch length), when they aren't allowed to play with their friends because the game promotes an anti-co-operation system.
And ofc, the typical thing will be: "Play Automated Tournaments." Unfortunately, they're so infrequent and often at silly times, so in a lot of cases, while I'd love to play them, I either have to play at 5pm or 11pm (UK), as they seem to happen every 6 hours, which isn't really convenient in any way for the average person that has to go to college/university, or work the next day.
Overall, I really do think that Team Queue needs to be added back in, just to keep the PvP Ranked 'scene' alive, with the restrictions I've mentioned above in bold. It incorporates a lot of ideas mentioned in the thread, but solves and assesses the very obvious 'drawback' that Team Queue possesses.

Link.1049 · January 5, 2018

This happens ALOT... soon as you cross into Gold 3 you're suddenly seeing the "God of PvP" tag, and the other top 250 ALL the time. Got to the point where if I saw only 1 of those tags on my team I'd expect 3-4 on the other.

@Cynz.9437 said:
@"Garrisyl.7402" said:A bit late, but I felt like chiming in on this.
This is the first season i really play pvp (look at my rank) and barely climbed to gold 3, when the matchmaker decided to put me into a match with Sindrener,
who at the time was
400 rating above me
.
To make up for this obscene difference, I actually got very good teammates and the match was a close one. To your matchmaker this probably looked like both a good match-up and a good result, but I disagree. This match probably wasn't very enjoyable for anyone in it.
1) Sindrener got placed with players way below his skill level who he was supposed to carry, with all the frustrations that entails.2) In order to balance out his high rating my teammates were better than his, and constantly walked all over them. (see kill feed)3) I quickly noticed that my teammates were way better than me and didn't feel like I could contribute much to the match. If I won it would be because I got carried, not because I did well. I also got absolutely rekked by him a few times without ever feeling I had a chance. Not fun at all.4) His teammates were up against better players, and only won because he carried them.
This was obviously an unusual match, but the fact that the matchmaker allows for a 400 SR difference between players in the same match is absolutely ridiculous - queue times be damned.
I want to add that gold 3 is a terrible pvp experience at the moment. Almost none of my matches are against people of the same skill level. Due to the system allowing you to be dragged into other people's queue (thus allowing bigger SR differences), I'm almost exclusively used to fill in or balance out plat games. Feels pretty bad to constantly be in matches filled with "X Legend" titles who rage at me in chat for every lost teamfight. I know I'm not as good as you, and I sure as hell didn't ask to be here.

If i recall correctly, Sind had even silver players in his matches kek. That is rather very very VERY generous rank range for MM.

Ithilwen.1529 · January 6, 2018

I just waited more than 6 minutes to lose by just under 500 points in ranked.

The funny part is that the skill levels were relatively equal. It was the class mix. The other team had 2 coordinated SCOURGES, Druid, Spellbreaker and Holosmith while our team had a much more random mix, one of whom DC'd when we had 400ish points deficit.

Matchmaking WILL NEVER work until the classes are brought to parity.

~edit~ I've said in the past that there needs to be a "beginner" class. I hold to that.. but maybe it needs to be a buff that goes away after, say, you qualify to go to ranked games? A couple of the classes are simply too outlandishly strong.

Ithilwen.1529 · January 6, 2018

deleted post

Ithilwen.1529 · January 8, 2018

A picture, so it is said, is worth 1000 words. I contend that the matchmaker is producing "sub optimal" matches.

Guizao.4167 · January 8, 2018

In my opinion, I think the matchmaking should exclude class stacking. But it won't be happening because of the meta. It's defining roles and that's not what Guild Wars 2 is about. Since 2012, every profession should be able to deal damage like any other. Every profession should be able to heal like any other. Balance issues, maybe?

Delweyn.1309 · January 8, 2018

@Ben Phongluangtham.1065 said:
@"maddoctor.2738" said:I didn't know on which of the PVP threads to ask but I'll do it here since it affects matchmaking:Can rating loss/gain depend on game performance and not just team ratings? I know it's something that is asked a LOT but since this is a feedback gathering thread it deserves the attention.

The problem is, measuring individual performance in a meaningful way is very difficult to do programatically. I know we have top stats, but they don't generally tell the whole story. Individual performance is a very situational thing. If we tried to adjust ratings based on stats, we'd have people chasing stats rather than the win. That's why we value the win over everything else.

Hi, I'm sorry to call you out but can you check this please ? Is it an account problem or something else ? With thoses stats it just can't be random.

Rodzynald.5897 · January 8, 2018

@"Ithilwen.1529" said:I just waited more than 6 minutes to lose by just under 500 points in ranked.
The funny part is that the skill levels were relatively equal. It was the class mix. The other team had 2 coordinated SCOURGES, Druid, Spellbreaker and Holosmith while our team had a much more random mix, one of whom DC'd when we had 400ish points deficit.
Matchmaking WILL NEVER work until the classes are brought to parity.
~edit~ I've said in the past that there needs to be a "beginner" class. I hold to that.. but maybe it needs to be a buff that goes away after, say, you qualify to go to ranked games? A couple of the classes are simply too outlandishly strong.

This is what we get for "creative" lack of dps/tank/heal trinity.

Guizao.4167 · January 8, 2018

@Rodzynald.5897 said:
@"Ithilwen.1529" said:I just waited more than 6 minutes to lose by just under 500 points in ranked.
The funny part is that the skill levels were relatively equal. It was the class mix.
The other team had 2 coordinated
SCOURGES
, Druid, Spellbreaker and Holosmith while our team had a much more random mix, one of whom DC'd when we had 400ish points deficit.
Matchmaking WILL NEVER work until the classes are brought to parity.
~edit~ I've said in the past that there needs to be a "beginner" class. I hold to that.. but maybe it needs to be a buff that goes away after, say, you qualify to go to ranked games? A couple of the classes are simply too outlandishly strong.

This is what we get for "creative" lack of dps/tank/heal trinity.

I say this is what we get for the lack of proper balance between classes. It's been proven already we don't need the "classic trinity".

Rodzynald.5897 · January 8, 2018

@Guizao.4167 said:
@Rodzynald.5897 said:
@"Ithilwen.1529" said:I just waited more than 6 minutes to lose by just under 500 points in ranked.
The funny part is that the skill levels were relatively equal. It was the class mix.
The other team had 2 coordinated
SCOURGES
, Druid, Spellbreaker and Holosmith while our team had a much more random mix, one of whom DC'd when we had 400ish points deficit.
Matchmaking WILL NEVER work until the classes are brought to parity.
~edit~ I've said in the past that there needs to be a "beginner" class. I hold to that.. but maybe it needs to be a buff that goes away after, say, you qualify to go to ranked games? A couple of the classes are simply too outlandishly strong.

This is what we get for "creative" lack of dps/tank/heal trinity.

I say this is what we get for the lack of proper balance between classes. It's been proven already we don't need the "classic trinity".

Mhmm... the first wave of power creep (HoT) made most classes do everything that can be done. The lack of trinity is what even further deepens this problem.Before HoT there was also no "trinity" on paper but in reality indeed there were borders between what one classes can and cannot do. This may not be exactly a trinity, but it works as one. The more defined a class is, the easier it is to balance it. Now that these borders are gone, the state of PvP says for itself.Besides, really makes you think why most games with trinity fare more or less better in terms of PvP than GW2. Perhaps the only exception is ArcheAge but they don't have tons of strong as nails passives and actually have to sacrifice stuff in favor of one of three class trees. You can't be good at multiple things at once, which is contrary to what we have here.

Dreams.3128 · January 8, 2018

@Guizao.4167 said:
@Rodzynald.5897 said:
@"Ithilwen.1529" said:I just waited more than 6 minutes to lose by just under 500 points in ranked.
The funny part is that the skill levels were relatively equal. It was the class mix.
The other team had 2 coordinated
SCOURGES
, Druid, Spellbreaker and Holosmith while our team had a much more random mix, one of whom DC'd when we had 400ish points deficit.
Matchmaking WILL NEVER work until the classes are brought to parity.
~edit~ I've said in the past that there needs to be a "beginner" class. I hold to that.. but maybe it needs to be a buff that goes away after, say, you qualify to go to ranked games? A couple of the classes are simply too outlandishly strong.

This is what we get for "creative" lack of dps/tank/heal trinity.

I say this is what we get for the lack of proper balance between classes. It's been proven already we don't need the "classic trinity".

Funny how this game's PVP is garbage tier without the Trinity but the PVE healthy.

Notice how games that have teams within their PvP that has a Trinity is more healthy than gw2 right now. This is literally the reason why MMOs have to have some sort of 2v2 or 1v1, because teams do not function without a semblance of a Trinity.

Guizao.4167 · January 8, 2018

@Lilyanna.9361 said:
@Guizao.4167 said:
@Rodzynald.5897 said:
@"Ithilwen.1529" said:I just waited more than 6 minutes to lose by just under 500 points in ranked.
The funny part is that the skill levels were relatively equal. It was the class mix.
The other team had 2 coordinated
SCOURGES
, Druid, Spellbreaker and Holosmith while our team had a much more random mix, one of whom DC'd when we had 400ish points deficit.
Matchmaking WILL NEVER work until the classes are brought to parity.
~edit~ I've said in the past that there needs to be a "beginner" class. I hold to that.. but maybe it needs to be a buff that goes away after, say, you qualify to go to ranked games? A couple of the classes are simply too outlandishly strong.

This is what we get for "creative" lack of dps/tank/heal trinity.

I say this is what we get for the lack of proper balance between classes. It's been proven already we don't need the "classic trinity".

Funny how this game's PVP is garbage tier without the Trinity but the PVE healthy.

Notice how games that have teams within their PvP that has a Trinity is more healthy than gw2 right now. This is literally the reason why MMOs have to have some sort of 2v2 or 1v1, because teams do not function without a semblance of a Trinity.

Not funny. Trinity must exist in all professions: necromancers should be able to heal just like an elementalist. All professions should be able to do everything because the game was advertised this way. What I've been seeing since 2012 is the lack of proper balance.

Guizao.4167 · January 8, 2018

@Rodzynald.5897 said:
@Guizao.4167 said:
@Rodzynald.5897 said:
@"Ithilwen.1529" said:I just waited more than 6 minutes to lose by just under 500 points in ranked.
The funny part is that the skill levels were relatively equal. It was the class mix.
The other team had 2 coordinated
SCOURGES
, Druid, Spellbreaker and Holosmith while our team had a much more random mix, one of whom DC'd when we had 400ish points deficit.
Matchmaking WILL NEVER work until the classes are brought to parity.
~edit~ I've said in the past that there needs to be a "beginner" class. I hold to that.. but maybe it needs to be a buff that goes away after, say, you qualify to go to ranked games? A couple of the classes are simply too outlandishly strong.

This is what we get for "creative" lack of dps/tank/heal trinity.

I say this is what we get for the lack of proper balance between classes. It's been proven already we don't need the "classic trinity".

Mhmm... the first wave of power creep (HoT) made most classes do everything that can be done. The lack of trinity is what even further deepens this problem.Before HoT there was also no "trinity" on paper but in reality indeed there were borders between what one classes can and cannot do. This may not be exactly a trinity, but it works as one. The more defined a class is, the easier it is to balance it. Now that these borders are gone, the state of PvP says for itself.Besides, really makes you think why most games with trinity fare more or less better in terms of PvP than GW2. Perhaps the only exception is ArcheAge but they don't have tons of strong as nails passives and actually have to sacrifice stuff in favor of one of three class trees. You can't be good at multiple things at once, which is contrary to what we have here.

It's still balance issues. If I trait an elementalist to deal damage, I shouldn't be able to heal. If I trait an engineer to heal, it should lose all other archetypes. But if I trait a profession to be hybrid, it should be hybrid.

Rodzynald.5897 · January 8, 2018

@Guizao.4167 said:
@Rodzynald.5897 said:
@Guizao.4167 said:
@Rodzynald.5897 said:
@"Ithilwen.1529" said:I just waited more than 6 minutes to lose by just under 500 points in ranked.
The funny part is that the skill levels were relatively equal. It was the class mix.
The other team had 2 coordinated
SCOURGES
, Druid, Spellbreaker and Holosmith while our team had a much more random mix, one of whom DC'd when we had 400ish points deficit.
Matchmaking WILL NEVER work until the classes are brought to parity.
~edit~ I've said in the past that there needs to be a "beginner" class. I hold to that.. but maybe it needs to be a buff that goes away after, say, you qualify to go to ranked games? A couple of the classes are simply too outlandishly strong.

This is what we get for "creative" lack of dps/tank/heal trinity.

I say this is what we get for the lack of proper balance between classes. It's been proven already we don't need the "classic trinity".

Mhmm... the first wave of power creep (HoT) made most classes do everything that can be done. The lack of trinity is what even further deepens this problem.Before HoT there was also no "trinity" on paper but in reality indeed there were borders between what one classes can and cannot do. This may not be exactly a trinity, but it works as one. The more defined a class is, the easier it is to balance it. Now that these borders are gone, the state of PvP says for itself.Besides, really makes you think why most games with trinity fare more or less better in terms of PvP than GW2. Perhaps the only exception is ArcheAge but they don't have tons of strong as nails passives and actually have to sacrifice stuff in favor of one of three class trees. You can't be good at multiple things at once, which is contrary to what we have here.

It's still balance issues. If I trait an elementalist to deal damage, I shouldn't be able to heal. If I trait an engineer to heal, it should lose all other archetypes. But if I trait a profession to be hybrid, it should be hybrid.

And the trick is that in GW2 hybrids are stronger than they should be. For example:Spellbreaker - damage, sustain, mobility, CCDruid - damage, healing (support), mobility, slight CCMirage - damage, mobility, CC, escape on demand, total damage mitigation. (be grateful it doesn't have sustain or tanky traits)All of the above allow rinse and repeat playstyle which is pretty much a faulty design. If you made a mistake, you should lose or at least feel a significant disadvantage, not run away and repeat (this is thief's job) or until you outsustain or force your enemy to make a mistake.EDIT:What I forgot to add is that due to right amulets and traits those things are boosted even further (thus the more you have the better you are). Perhaps if we got rid of hybrid amulets for a short period to test around, we could get some interesting results.

Now in top tier meta what is alright:Bunker firebrand - tons of healing and support, a backbone of a good team. However, they won't go gimmicky on you, turning invisible or teleporting on demand, also they won't even kill you. Even though name suggests "bunker" they are not that tanky as we might think. A well executed power burst goes through them like butter. It's the healing output that makes them appear tanky.D/P thief DD - mobility and damage but squishy. Has to sacrifice initative to either attack or escape.Holo - high burst damage but squishy.(^ This is the trinity right there, and this is good. There is no need to change anything with these three builds. ^)

An exception is scourge. It is masterful at one thing but doesn't have much mobility and can be taken down quickly with a well placed burst, but it is still widely used. Why is that so? People play it so much because current game modes roll around capping points and we know that this is what scourges like. Considering that most of PvP playerbase are PvE casuals then scourge is a perfect farming tool, thus seen as OP by most. I personaly have no issues with scourges (and it comes form a melee lover) save for too much condi application in short intervals, but this also can be countered one way or another. At least I am sure that after opening up a scourge they won't pull out an ancestral grace'y escape just to get back seconds later for an easy fight reset.

Besides, if this still doesn't seem convincing, we didn't have those power creeps before HoT and please recall how PvP flourished back then, how many people played every day.

Rufo.3716 · January 8, 2018

If this new matchmaker is so good why am I, a gold, continually getting matched up with bronze players on my team? Literally had a player ask why they only had half of their skill bar and when would they get the other skills for it. Gets very frustrating when I have a bunch of bronze players on my team playing against of people who know what they are doing. This is why most of the quality streamers quit. Nobody wants to feel like their skill is useless. I'm sure it doesn't help now that win traders who's skill doesn't match their rank, are actually playing now. But that's a whole other topic.

Guizao.4167 · January 8, 2018

@Rodzynald.5897 said:
@Guizao.4167 said:
@Rodzynald.5897 said:
@Guizao.4167 said:
@Rodzynald.5897 said:
@"Ithilwen.1529" said:I just waited more than 6 minutes to lose by just under 500 points in ranked.
The funny part is that the skill levels were relatively equal. It was the class mix.
The other team had 2 coordinated
SCOURGES
, Druid, Spellbreaker and Holosmith while our team had a much more random mix, one of whom DC'd when we had 400ish points deficit.
Matchmaking WILL NEVER work until the classes are brought to parity.
~edit~ I've said in the past that there needs to be a "beginner" class. I hold to that.. but maybe it needs to be a buff that goes away after, say, you qualify to go to ranked games? A couple of the classes are simply too outlandishly strong.