Suggestion to Improve Confusion (Condition) Consistency in PvE

[Micah.3789]

Confusion is a problematic condition to balance considering the incredible variability in trigger frequency depending on the content. My suggestion seeks to remove that inconsistency entirely while maintaining the theme of the condition.

I suggest replacing the flat damage on skill activation with an effect that instead consumes one stack of confusion and deals its remaining damage immediately. This way, there's no variable extra damage. You're just getting the same damage faster. The base damage scaling could then be improved to be more in line with other conditions (probably match poison). Confusion would keep its skill activation punishment theme while gaining reliability across the board, without risking the encounter-specific overperformance we've seen in the past.

The improved burst functionality of this design could even slightly improve the slow ramp time of builds like mirage, which is otherwise a serious pain point. It won't solve that problem completely, but it could help. 

[ShadowKatt.6740]

1 hour ago, Micah.3789 said:

Confusion is a problematic condition to balance considering the incredible variability in trigger frequency depending on the content. My suggestion seeks to remove that inconsistency entirely while maintaining the theme of the condition.

I suggest replacing the flat damage on skill activation with an effect that instead consumes one stack of confusion and deals its remaining damage immediately. This way, there's no variable extra damage. You're just getting the same damage faster. The base damage scaling could then be improved to be more in line with other conditions (probably match poison). Confusion would keep its skill activation punishment theme while gaining reliability across the board, without risking the encounter-specific overperformance we've seen in the past.

The improved burst functionality of this design could even slightly improve the slow ramp time of builds like mirage, which is otherwise a serious pain point. It won't solve that problem completely, but it could help. 

I had to read throgh that a couple times to really get what you meant. At first I thought you thought it wasn't a DoT skill, but I see what you mean now. You want it to just dump all its damage on skill activation rather than give bonus damage. It's...an interesting thought. I'm sure you're already well aware that Confusion is the GW2 equivilent of Empathy, which as a Punishment mesmer was one of my signature skills. it kinda sounds like you're looking for less Empathy and more of a Clumsiness or Frustration. And...I don't think so. I think Confusion works really well as it is BUT I also like where you're going. It might be a bit wishful thinking but I wouldn't mind seeing a new condition that did something similar to that, call it a Trigger or Delay or something where we put it on you and if you do something THEN you get hit with it, forcing them to either back off or eat it. I'm not sure it would matter because, and I mean I'm as guilty of this as everyone is, in GW2 getting hit's not really a big deal. Back in GW1 if I started taking damage I knew I was in trouble. In GW2 I can be standing in the death circle and I'm kinda just....eh, I'll be fine. So while I love the idea the way I see it it's either gonna be so pitiful that no one will care or so broken that it'll get nerfed into the afore mentioned anyway. But hey, maybe you have some further thoughts on how to implement it.

[Micah.3789]

1 hour ago, ShadowKatt.6740 said:

I had to read throgh that a couple times to really get what you meant. At first I thought you thought it wasn't a DoT skill, but I see what you mean now. You want it to just dump all its damage on skill activation rather than give bonus damage. It's...an interesting thought. I'm sure you're already well aware that Confusion is the GW2 equivilent of Empathy, which as a Punishment mesmer was one of my signature skills. it kinda sounds like you're looking for less Empathy and more of a Clumsiness or Frustration. And...I don't think so. I think Confusion works really well as it is BUT I also like where you're going. It might be a bit wishful thinking but I wouldn't mind seeing a new condition that did something similar to that, call it a Trigger or Delay or something where we put it on you and if you do something THEN you get hit with it, forcing them to either back off or eat it. I'm not sure it would matter because, and I mean I'm as guilty of this as everyone is, in GW2 getting hit's not really a big deal. Back in GW1 if I started taking damage I knew I was in trouble. In GW2 I can be standing in the death circle and I'm kinda just....eh, I'll be fine. So while I love the idea the way I see it it's either gonna be so pitiful that no one will care or so broken that it'll get nerfed into the afore mentioned anyway. But hey, maybe you have some further thoughts on how to implement it.

To be clear, my suggestion fully maintains confusion's function as a damage over time condition. In fact that damage should be buffed to be in line with bleed or poison. It's just the trigger that would change.

On skill activation it would still do flat damage, but instead of being a unique effect, it would just consume an already applied stack of confusion and do its remaining damage instantly. Another option would be to have the trigger consume 1 sec of each stack of confusion instantly. So basically, all confusion stack timers would roll forward an extra second and do all that damage immediately. 

Neither of these options could be broken/OP unless the base condition scaling was too high. The overall (benchmark) damage would be identical regardless of trigger frequency, while the potential burst would still be way worse than just being power dps. It would be a lot easier to balance as well.

[ShadowKatt.6740]

50 minutes ago, Micah.3789 said:

To be clear, my suggestion fully maintains confusion's function as a damage over time condition. In fact that damage should be buffed to be in line with bleed or poison. It's just the trigger that would change.

On skill activation it would still do flat damage, but instead of being a unique effect, it would just consume an already applied stack of confusion and do its remaining damage instantly. Another option would be to have the trigger consume 1 sec of each stack of confusion instantly. So basically, all confusion stack timers would roll forward an extra second and do all that damage immediately. 

Neither of these options could be broken/OP unless the base condition scaling was too high. The overall (benchmark) damage would be identical regardless of trigger frequency, while the potential burst would still be way worse than just being power dps. It would be a lot easier to balance as well.

So to put numbers to it, for example, if a 10 second Confusion would do 1000 damage DoT, if they attacked on the second tick it would do 100 DoT and then a 900 burst and the that stack of confusion ends. If there were three stacks of Confusion and they attacked in the next second, that stack would have done 200 DoT and then 800 Burst, and so on until if you caught it at the end of its timing it would be negligible.

I'll be honest, I don't like it, but that's my personal taste. It's functional, but I'd rather keep Confusion the way it is. As I said, Empathy and Backfire were the cornerstones of my mesmer way back when and I like the way confusion works now. But I do agree that the damage should be tuned way up. Mesmers, unless you're running Sword/Sword or Dagger/Sword with Sharper Images, primarily do our damage through Confusion and Torment, and right now the only reason that it works at all is the fact that enemies don't carry self heals. If they did, Confusion and Torment would be literally useless.

[ZephidelGRS.9520]

My problem is why Confusion being good at what it does is even a problem at all. From what I can see, even before nerf it was only extra effective in a very few specific Raid encounters while still being a subpar condition everywhere else. So why was that situation unacceptable to warrant the change in the first place?

 

[starlinvf.1358]

1 hour ago, ZephidelGRS.9520 said:

My problem is why Confusion being good at what it does is even a problem at all. From what I can see, even before nerf it was only extra effective in a very few specific Raid encounters while still being a subpar condition everywhere else. So why was that situation unacceptable to warrant the change in the first place?

 

Confusion is a pvp geared condition.  Its designed with an attentive players as its counter play, and punishes skill spamming.  AI doesn’t do that, so its stuck in pve limbo; as pve only cares about dps.  Overworld wants burst, raids want sustained.  And confusion fits neither thanks to the trigger requirement.

Its one of those “the encounter design is the root of the problem” situations. And it won’t change because players can’t handle even marginally smart AI behavior.   the alternative is    more flurry type mob attacks, but those freak out players as well. And raid meta tendency for glass canons would not help adoption. 

The OP idea is not terrible. But it trades confusions true damage potential easy damage, which is what makes the idea unreliable under the current dev approach to balance.  

[ShadowKatt.6740]

5 hours ago, starlinvf.1358 said:

Confusion is a pvp geared condition.  Its designed with an attentive players as its counter play, and punishes skill spamming.  AI doesn’t do that, so its stuck in pve limbo; as pve only cares about dps.  Overworld wants burst, raids want sustained.  And confusion fits neither thanks to the trigger requirement.

Its one of those “the encounter design is the root of the problem” situations. And it won’t change because players can’t handle even marginally smart AI behavior.   the alternative is    more flurry type mob attacks, but those freak out players as well. And raid meta tendency for glass canons would not help adoption. 

The OP idea is not terrible. But it trades confusions true damage potential easy damage, which is what makes the idea unreliable under the current dev approach to balance.  

Even in PvP though....as you said it was designed with an attentive player in mind, and they're not. And they're not because of what I said above: Even as a mesmer, a scholar profession, even I don't fear damage. Back in GW1 if you were a warrior and you got hit with Empathy or Spirit Shackles you backed off because there was a coin toss chance that you die before your target does and even IF you win, you'll be easy picking for the next. Now it really doesn't matter. You could slap Poison, Torment, Bleeding, and Confusion all on the same character and they'd still shrug it off, at least for a while before they even consider they might need to back off.

But the balance team would never let conditions be that devastating, and I think that's to our detriment. This game feels like we're playing with foam bats and silly string. Nothing is actually dangerous, confusion least of all. Confusion in Pokemon is more dangerous than here.

[Yasai.3549]

On 4/10/2024 at 3:12 AM, Micah.3789 said:

The improved burst functionality of this design could even slightly improve the slow ramp time of builds like mirage, which is otherwise a serious pain point. It won't solve that problem completely, but it could help. 

Why are condition players so obsessed with dealing Burst Damage. Just play Power then. 

If there are ramping issues, maybe the build has problems and needs more base duration from skills and traits. Besides, doesn't Mirage deal mainly in Torment anyway? Why the random Confusion change to "improve" it. 

[mirage.8046]

Reverting confusion's damage before that Oct 2022th balance patch would undo the already low confusion damage for condi mirage and condi mechanist. Of course this condition will always be encounter-specific, just like how torment was a few years ago. Condi mirage was great on twin largos, but more or less suboptimal elsewhere. I remember confusion holo was really good once upon a time before mechanist was a thought. I don't even enjoy condi mesmer as much in pve anymore, because they thought confusion was not relevant in pve. 
 

The OP's idea sounds interesting because it will remove confusion when people attack while under confusion, acting like a very detrimental cleanse. However, before any changes, I'd like to get that 50% damage increase when enemies activated skills. Undoing the nerfs would be a great first step.

[Micah.3789]

2 hours ago, Yasai.3549 said:

Why are condition players so obsessed with dealing Burst Damage. Just play Power then. 

If there are ramping issues, maybe the build has problems and needs more base duration from skills and traits. Besides, doesn't Mirage deal mainly in Torment anyway? Why the random Confusion change to "improve" it. 

That doesn't really seem like a fair response to my comment, but I'll answer anyway. Damage output is balanced around golem benchmark numbers which is especially inequitable for slow ramp builds. The disparity is seen in most wingman boss logs. To be clear, the goal of my change wasn't to add burst damage, that was just an agreeable benefit.

Mirage, especially with staff, actually applies a significant amount of confusion. It's just severely outclassed by torment and so does less of the overall damage. That's kind of the point.

You seem to be ignoring my actual stated intention and project instead that I'm trying to fix a build. Confusion was a highly variable condition that overperformed at its best and was almost inconsequential at its worst. The solution we got was uninspired and resulted in a significant potency loss across the board. I had a creative idea that I think would have been better: it maintains the theme and flavor of confusion while making it more consistent without being overly conservative with its potency. 

22 hours ago, ZephidelGRS.9520 said:

From what I can see, even before nerf it was only extra effective in a very few specific Raid encounters while still being a subpar condition everywhere else. So why was that situation unacceptable to warrant the change in the first place?

Unacceptable may be a bit strong, but massive variability in performance is unhealthy for balance. It's unfortunate that isn't applied to all builds equally. 🙃

[Cuks.8241]

I think it would be a really nice change to keep it's function in pvp and remove most of the variability in pve (which I guess is a wanted change although it makes it a bit less interesting).

The problem with both confusion and torment in pvp is that this game is just to spammy on both ends (both applications and cleansing of condies). Sure there are scenarios where you will actually stall using abilities in pvp because you have a bunch of stacks of confusion. But in many cases it's just another condi that you will cleanse with all the others when there's just too much of them. 

I like playing around different dots and debuffs in a game like wow which is slower and more methodical and only certain type of cleanses work against certain condies and you might need to take the lesser evil with dots like Unstable Affliction where you need to decide do I eat all the dots' dmg or I cleanse it and suffer the UE dmg and silence. In gw2 in many cases you just cleanse when there is a critical amount of condies on you.

[Zenith.7301]

Easiest way to balance in PvE is to just tune the stack to do the same DPS as a bleed and the extra proc is just that, free conditional damage. It will be good on active bosses, but balanced for most.

It's really dumb they keep nerfing confusion when the top condition specs all use burning or torment instead.