PVP Damage is...

[Meizu.1846]

getting nuts. 

Lately I've been trying to make herald work in pvp and tried to take advantage of its tanky nature. 

So went rabid amu, 900 toughness, so 3100+ armor, basically perma prot with additional perma 10% reduction from unyielding spirit + perma 9% reduction from hardening persistance if I keep 6 points upkeep. 

So 3100 armor, and if the stacking strike reduction is additive (not sure), another 33+10+9 =  52% damage reduction on top of that armor. 

Power burst classes can still delete me in 20 miliseconds. 

Disclaimer: I know that not dodging and blocking and using such utilities won't guarantee me sustain but still, when you invest into damage reduction so heavily, isn't it a bit ridiculous that you still get deleted so hard? What's the point of having this damage reduction mechanic then, would be much better if I would spec into something else, like damage for example and shiro stance for unblockables but then - why? 

Why does a meta have to be so defining that basically nothing else comes even close to it? It's also a bit immersion breaking, getting deleted in heavy armor with so much reduction like it's nothing. I'm not expecting to win just because I specced into protection but kitten man, at least give me 4 seconds to live through the burst not punish me immediately if I am out of stun breaks and a single dps class deals so much damage nontheless. For the RP's sake (not that I'm an avid RPer but still), I'd rather deal lower damage in favor of higher protection, to fit the armor type fantasy better. 

Yeah, reactive gameplay and blah blah. I get it. It's a bit kitten though, IMHO, when a single block beats a whole skill tree investment, I dunno. Maybe it's just me. 

What are your thoughts? 

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

Damage reduction is all multiplicative now. There were cases where some were additive, and 100% reduction was possible in some modes on some classes some of the time (100% if you were a rev though in PvE).

[Meizu.1846]

Thanks for that info.

The only problem is that the main thing a rev has for sustaining is precisely damage reduction, and I'm basically getting deleted like I'm made of paper. Speaking for pvp specifically of course, it's quite a bit better in WvW but man, it's kinda depressing, not gonna lie. Like, not getting anything in return for going DR basically makes whole Jalis obsolete, if it were not for the stab it can give. But why waste a whole legend slot just for stab when ventari can now do it even better IMHO on top of providing condi cleanses for the whole team and healing. 

So, apart from playing the same old boring vindi in pvp, what else have we revs got? 😪

[Myror.7521]

I don't know what you mean. I found it realy normal to get half lifed on a heavy class by an engi just cause his passive hits you for about 5k alone while also ccing and blinding xD

[Sereath.1428]

3 hours ago, Meizu.1846 said:

Lately I've been trying to make herald work in pvp and tried to take advantage of its tanky nature. 

So went rabid amu, 900 toughness, so 3100+ armor, basically perma prot with additional perma 10% reduction from unyielding spirit + perma 9% reduction from hardening persistance if I keep 6 points upkeep. 

So 3100 armor, and if the stacking strike reduction is additive (not sure), another 33+10+9 =  52% damage reduction on top of that armor. 

Power burst classes can still delete me in 20 miliseconds. 

Why does a meta have to be so defining that basically nothing else comes even close to it? It's also a bit immersion breaking, getting deleted in heavy armor with so much reduction like it's nothing. For the RP's sake (not that I'm an avid RPer but still), I'd rather deal lower damage in favor of higher protection, to fit the armor type fantasy better. 

Conquest fanatics decided that anything remotely tanky had no place in their game mode:
Removed and nerfed most amulets, trash sigils, etc.
So of course high damage and active defences are everything.

This pvp is so kittened up thanks to the hyper-focus on a single mode ever since they wanted to become a pseudo-esports game.
 

2 hours ago, Meizu.1846 said:

So, apart from playing the same old boring vindi in pvp, what else have we revs got? 😪

Absolutely nothing. That is why Devastation, Death Drop Vindicator is the only remotely competitive spec. High Damage + active defences.
It's the only gameplay CMC/whoever allows for revenant. Kill everything within the first 5 seconds otherwise tough luck with your kitten 2.8k and 3.5k heals with 30s cd.
Power Herald, the same philosophy actually. You better kill things within the first 3 seconds, otherwise good luck with your 2 seconds of Infuse Light every 30s.

Edited April 24 by Sereath.1428

[arazoth.7290]

2 hours ago, Meizu.1846 said:

getting nuts. 

Lately I've been trying to make herald work in pvp and tried to take advantage of its tanky nature. 

So went rabid amu, 900 toughness, so 3100+ armor, basically perma prot with additional perma 10% reduction from unyielding spirit + perma 9% reduction from hardening persistance if I keep 6 points upkeep. 

So 3100 armor, and if the stacking strike reduction is additive (not sure), another 33+10+9 =  52% damage reduction on top of that armor. 

Power burst classes can still delete me in 20 miliseconds. 

Disclaimer: I know that not dodging and blocking and using such utilities won't guarantee me sustain but still, when you invest into damage reduction so heavily, isn't it a bit ridiculous that you still get deleted so hard? What's the point of having this damage reduction mechanic then, would be much better if I would spec into something else, like damage for example and shiro stance for unblockables but then - why? 

Why does a meta have to be so defining that basically nothing else comes even close to it? It's also a bit immersion breaking, getting deleted in heavy armor with so much reduction like it's nothing. I'm not expecting to win just because I specced into protection but kitten man, at least give me 4 seconds to live through the burst not punish me immediately if I am out of stun breaks and a single dps class deals so much damage nontheless. For the RP's sake (not that I'm an avid RPer but still), I'd rather deal lower damage in favor of higher protection, to fit the armor type fantasy better. 

Yeah, reactive gameplay and blah blah. I get it. It's a bit kitten though, IMHO, when a single block beats a whole skill tree investment, I dunno. Maybe it's just me. 

What are your thoughts? 

 

2 hours ago, Meizu.1846 said:

Thanks for that info.

The only problem is that the main thing a rev has for sustaining is precisely damage reduction, and I'm basically getting deleted like I'm made of paper. Speaking for pvp specifically of course, it's quite a bit better in WvW but man, it's kinda depressing, not gonna lie. Like, not getting anything in return for going DR basically makes whole Jalis obsolete, if it were not for the stab it can give. But why waste a whole legend slot just for stab when ventari can now do it even better IMHO on top of providing condi cleanses for the whole team and healing. 

So, apart from playing the same old boring vindi in pvp, what else have we revs got? 😪

Try this for herald in pvp if you want to try a mix of condi/support same time but more orientated little bit selfish and not fully support but it helps team in teamfights. So more orientated around dealing damage in teamfight same time and being able to duel if you like.=>

•glint stance/ centaur stance :

-Retribution traitline: 1-2-1

-Salvation traitline: 3-2-1

-Herald traitline: 3-3-2

Sage amulet/rune of the druid/relic of durability.

mace/shield + shortbow (or staff instead of SB for even mote sustain but less damage ofc)

Sigils of transference / Sigils of energy

__________________________________

You have centaur cc + shortbow cc and herald elite knockback to lock ppl in your aoe for consistant aoe on them.

Mace skill 3 leaps can be used also for kiting if yours chilled/criplled and you move slow, the leaps can help then escape.

Start fights with Herald glint heal-, swiftness-, fury facet passives on. This way you always can use in need stunbreak or heal if cc'd. It also provides important boons during fight. At start of fights put herald facet passive protection on for unexpected damage on you/team.

Use nature facet in centaur only for the consume conditions part

The rest you can figure out I think

 

[Sahne.6950]

Long story short:

Herald bad.

passive defenses bad.

 

blocks and invulns good.

Damage good.

[Meizu.1846]

I'm sad. 😅

Herald feels so nice to play in PVE and while I absolutely understand why the built in quickness share had to be tamed and swapped to vigor instead, I would at least like to see the herald doing what it does well - share defences and be survivable on its own. While condi Herald I do actually feel has some nice damage pressure potential, there's really not much utility available to have a somewhat consistent way of applying those conditions, so most of the time I just happen to observe a bunch of "evade" and "block" statuses in pvp unless going shiro stance, as mentioned above. 

@arazoth.7290 

Thank you for the suggested build, will try that. I have of course already experimented with ventari stance with a hybrid condi/heal vindi build, to a pretty solid success, mainly thanks to the massive condi cleanse I could pull off (really sweet for trolling scourges lmao). Actually in fact, if you manage to attract a scourge to lock on such vindi build you've already won without defeating it because you're making him waste skills. I hope it feels at least somewhat useful on Herald too. 

And then there's renegade... Still probably locked into playing power jalis/shiro stance with no personal identity at all hehe. 

 

 

 

Edited April 24 by Meizu.1846

[arazoth.7290]

2 hours ago, Meizu.1846 said:

I'm sad. 😅

Herald feels so nice to play in PVE and while I absolutely understand why the built in quickness share had to be tamed and swapped to vigor instead, I would at least like to see the herald doing what it does well - share defences and be survivable on its own. While condi Herald I do actually feel has some nice damage pressure potential, there's really not much utility available to have a somewhat consistent way of applying those conditions, so most of the time I just happen to observe a bunch of "evade" and "block" statuses in pvp unless going shiro stance, as mentioned above. 

@arazoth.7290 

Thank you for the suggested build, will try that. I have of course already experimented with ventari stance with a hybrid condi/heal vindi build, to a pretty solid success, mainly thanks to the massive condi cleanse I could pull off (really sweet for trolling scourges lmao). Actually in fact, if you manage to attract a scourge to lock on such vindi build you've already won without defeating it because you're making him waste skills. I hope it feels at least somewhat useful on Herald too. 

And then there's renegade... Still probably locked into playing power jalis/shiro stance with no personal identity at all hehe. 

 

 

 

On that for Power Renegade*

You can try using =>

Shiro stance/ Kalla stance:

•Salvation traitline: 1-2-2 OR Devastation traitline: 1-2-2 ( more offense if you can judge how to stay away from condi better, salvation is little safer though ).

•Invocation traitline: 3-2-1

•Kalla traitline: 1-3-1

Berserker amulet / rune of the eagle / relic of the sunless

Hammer => Sigil of intelligence + Sigil of energy

Greatsword => Sigil of cleansing + Sigil of purging if devastation traited otherwise Sigil of energy

[Eddbopkins.2630]

Me and my buddy always thought this game to be kinda chess like with all the skills and counters such as dodge and very few invulnerables. But after POF it's just a burst game and classes with to many dodge abilities. To many classes have to much burst now and it's been like this for years.

 

Every day I pray to every God that exists for a core game mode to happen. Those days were the best.

Edited April 24 by Eddbopkins.2630

[Yerlock.4678]

18 hours ago, Meizu.1846 said:

getting nuts. 

Lately I've been trying to make herald work in pvp and tried to take advantage of its tanky nature. 

So went rabid amu, 900 toughness, so 3100+ armor, basically perma prot with additional perma 10% reduction from unyielding spirit + perma 9% reduction from hardening persistance if I keep 6 points upkeep. 

So 3100 armor, and if the stacking strike reduction is additive (not sure), another 33+10+9 =  52% damage reduction on top of that armor. 

Power burst classes can still delete me in 20 miliseconds. 

Disclaimer: I know that not dodging and blocking and using such utilities won't guarantee me sustain but still, when you invest into damage reduction so heavily, isn't it a bit ridiculous that you still get deleted so hard? What's the point of having this damage reduction mechanic then, would be much better if I would spec into something else, like damage for example and shiro stance for unblockables but then - why? 

Why does a meta have to be so defining that basically nothing else comes even close to it? It's also a bit immersion breaking, getting deleted in heavy armor with so much reduction like it's nothing. I'm not expecting to win just because I specced into protection but kitten man, at least give me 4 seconds to live through the burst not punish me immediately if I am out of stun breaks and a single dps class deals so much damage nontheless. For the RP's sake (not that I'm an avid RPer but still), I'd rather deal lower damage in favor of higher protection, to fit the armor type fantasy better. 

Yeah, reactive gameplay and blah blah. I get it. It's a bit kitten though, IMHO, when a single block beats a whole skill tree investment, I dunno. Maybe it's just me. 

What are your thoughts? 

I mostly agree with this. Although I wouldn't say everything does too much damage, it's a number of particular specs. Glass mes shatters hit too hard considering their levels of distortion, thief axe burst (while kind of are a one trick pony) can basically one shot if set up properly, willy or power herald even if they get the jump on you can almost instantly bring you to half health. 

I think the devs have a fear of things getting too sluggish and tanky in the meta. It's a justified fear because with everyone having dodge rolls (invul frames against strike damage) combat can quickly get too defensive if damage is on the lower end. The problem is it's now going a bit too far in the opposite direction, and we're only a few steps away from a twitchy insta kill meta. I think they should lower the damage on some spiky burst damage builds, not even by a lot but just to keep power levels in check, so this lets the glassier classes feel a bit more survivable without also one shotting people like it's nothing.

Some other specs btw are still very tanky. Vindicator hammer can dodge spam and is basically broken atm lol. A good tempest or spb can take quite a beating, as can many of the supports (especially chrono sup, plz nerf). There's a problem with extremes I'd say in the meta and keeping things with some classes killable (the tankier types) and other classes not able to kill in less than a second would be what I wish they'd do.

Edited April 24 by gmmg.9210

[Yerlock.4678]

39 minutes ago, Eddbopkins.2630 said:

Me and my buddy always thought this game to be kinda chess like with all the skills and counters such as dodge and very few invulnerables. But after POF it's just a burst game and classes with to many dodge abilities. To many classes have to much burst now and it's been like this for years.

 

Every day I pray to every God that exists for a core game mode to happen. Those days were the best.

They can start by making more core builds viable. F2p players should have more fun in this mode.

[Eddbopkins.2630]

6 hours ago, gmmg.9210 said:

They can start by making more core builds viable. F2p players should have more fun in this mode.

Free to play players shouldn't be able to play ranked.

[Kyraios.8954]

Everyone casually dropping 5-10k crits when as an ele I usually have 18k hp on the tankier side.

You have to rely on your abilities to keep you alive rather than raw stats. Even with the tankiest amulet+runes I still die in 2-3 hits from some classes. Earlier a ranger used longbow 4 into longbow 2 while I was at full hp and was able to kill me in the knockback animation(single stun break was on cd). 18.7k hp with the dolyak rune. 

 

[Meizu.1846]

Well I got deleted yesterday by a virtuoso, failed to see him spamming the blades in my back (he was behind me so out of screen) - got deleted in literally half a second, with 17k HP and the level of protection I desribed in my thread opener. 

And I fully agree, you have to rely on the abilities to keep you alive and that is fine, i don't mind that, in fact I think it makes for a very skill based gameplay. But despite that, I still just find it too much when you dedicate all your resources, relics, runes, skill tree passives, amulets etc. into damage mitigation and all you're given is half a second? Man you gotta have formula 1 level reflexes to get out of this one alive lol.

My honest and humble opinion, at the current state, a vast majority of these passives are simply wasted because investing in all that still hasn't gotten me a realistic chance of being able to rely on that mitigation, if only for a little while. Probably for 99% of players dying in 0.25 or 0.5 seconds makes a negligible difference in terms of being able to react on it, which effectively makes a large portion of mitigation skills obsolete. Therefore you see a big advantage in classes of lower grades of physical armor, such as light and medium where the sole archetype of that armor trades physical protection from the armor for protective skills. 

So then you have examples where a good mesmer can block/invul for days and get away with massive mitigation where all I have as a rev is a shield 5 where I can't even move, or staff 5 with staff 3 but that takes away a whole weapon slot when mesmers have that built in right in their class. 

IMHO there should be a more notable difference between armor types in terms of raw protection. Also, there would probably be more room for diversity and different meta plays because in my mind, as soon as damage meta prevails and damage mitigation cannot successfully counter dps, you have a one-side-of-the-coin type of play. 

[porkchopMCgee.6193]

On 4/24/2024 at 10:54 PM, Eddbopkins.2630 said:

Free to play players shouldn't be able to play ranked.

Alot of regular people shouldn't be able to play ranked either 

[arazoth.7290]

1 minute ago, porkchopMCgee.6193 said:

Alot of regular people shouldn't be able to play ranked either 

Nice entitlement, what's the highest rating you have ever got without duo?

[DanAlcedo.3281]

On 4/24/2024 at 3:26 AM, Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

Damage reduction is all multiplicative now. There were cases where some were additive, and 100% reduction was possible in some modes on some classes some of the time (100% if you were a rev though in PvE).

Tempest on release was 100% dmg immun and immun to conditions thanks to old diamond skin in Wvw. 

That was fun. Didn't last long though. 😔

 

[ccccc.4963]

36 minutes ago, porkchopMCgee.6193 said:

Alot of regular people shouldn't be able to play ranked either 

Alot of posters in this very thread shouldn't be able to play ranked either 

[porkchopMCgee.6193]

22 hours ago, arazoth.7290 said:

Nice entitlement, what's the highest rating you have ever got without duo?

Must have struck a nerve with what I said huh.  Nice deflection.  I've been high plat many of times solo buddy.  Good try though.

 

Tell me, are you one of those regular people, you seem to easily get offended by a comment 

[porkchopMCgee.6193]

22 hours ago, ccccc.4963 said:

Alot of posters in this very thread shouldn't be able to play ranked either 

Ah yeah that's true. Half if not the majority of you all are bad at the game anyways 

[porkchopMCgee.6193]

On 4/23/2024 at 9:18 PM, Meizu.1846 said:

getting nuts. 

Lately I've been trying to make herald work in pvp and tried to take advantage of its tanky nature. 

So went rabid amu, 900 toughness, so 3100+ armor, basically perma prot with additional perma 10% reduction from unyielding spirit + perma 9% reduction from hardening persistance if I keep 6 points upkeep. 

So 3100 armor, and if the stacking strike reduction is additive (not sure), another 33+10+9 =  52% damage reduction on top of that armor. 

Power burst classes can still delete me in 20 miliseconds. 

Disclaimer: I know that not dodging and blocking and using such utilities won't guarantee me sustain but still, when you invest into damage reduction so heavily, isn't it a bit ridiculous that you still get deleted so hard? What's the point of having this damage reduction mechanic then, would be much better if I would spec into something else, like damage for example and shiro stance for unblockables but then - why? 

Why does a meta have to be so defining that basically nothing else comes even close to it? It's also a bit immersion breaking, getting deleted in heavy armor with so much reduction like it's nothing. I'm not expecting to win just because I specced into protection but kitten man, at least give me 4 seconds to live through the burst not punish me immediately if I am out of stun breaks and a single dps class deals so much damage nontheless. For the RP's sake (not that I'm an avid RPer but still), I'd rather deal lower damage in favor of higher protection, to fit the armor type fantasy better. 

Yeah, reactive gameplay and blah blah. I get it. It's a bit kitten though, IMHO, when a single block beats a whole skill tree investment, I dunno. Maybe it's just me. 

What are your thoughts? 

Powercreep is real

[arazoth.7290]

53 minutes ago, porkchopMCgee.6193 said:

Must have struck a nerve with what I said huh.  Nice deflection.  I've been high plat many of times solo buddy.  Good try though.

 

Tell me, are you one of those regular people, you seem to easily get offended by a comment 

ah I see you're an ego elitist who thinks anything below plat isn't good enough and shouldn't be able to enter.

And dw I have been there too in rating, no nerf struck. Except the ego arrogance you got out of it apparantly to not give lower people a chance.

So selfish your suggestion is😂, I am happy arena net doesn't listens to such bold suggestions for pvp mode ☺️

[Spellhunter.9675]

29 minutes ago, arazoth.7290 said:

ah I see you're an ego elitist who thinks anything below plat isn't good enough and shouldn't be able to enter.

And dw I have been there too in rating, no nerf struck. Except the ego arrogance you got out of it apparantly to not give lower people a chance.

So selfish your suggestion is😂, I am happy arena net doesn't listens to such bold suggestions for pvp mode ☺️

Anet is actually listening to elitists (not forum "elitists"). And trust me, some of their suggestions are even worse than what we have on the forum. 
 

[maxwelgm.4315]

On 5/1/2024 at 3:52 PM, ccccc.4963 said:

Alot of posters in this very thread shouldn't be able to play ranked either 

Anet really should implement a queue that's only for platinum players, I wouldn't mind not getting any in my matches as soon as I land 120 matches or so and finally fall back to gold, and the map chat in HotM would get 10x more active and funny with none of them finding matches all day long.