Inmersion feeling of cooldowns

[DarkK.7368]

I just wanted to share a (for me) interesting point of view of cooldowns inside the world building. I never liked cooldowns. Why I can't hold my blade/shield and block stuff two times in a row? Why I can't dash forwards a second time? Why I can't thrust my blade with power again? Why I can't summon a second magma pool? But hey, I can throw a magma pool, an explosion, a magma wall, a meteorites rain... all of that in a row (different skills), but two magma pools in a row, NO WAY, impossible! For magical skills we could try to figure out a wierd, random excuse, but for physical skills?...

With time, I just forced me to get used to it and like it, because the profession that partially avoids this (I love thief initiative) doesn't have weapons that I like to play.

But today, with Scrapper, my mind flipped. Each utility skill is a different gyro, so it has sense that, after using the healing gyro, it has to recharge until I can use it again. The machine is recharging! And same for my hammer. My hammer has 4 different small-cores (like 4 small gyros). One produces a projectile-reflection field, one is a rocket-triple-jump, one is a barrier-block-field and one is a lighting field. It makes sense that I just used the block and it has to recharge so I can use it again! MACHINE STUFF.

So Scrapper makes me feel good playing with cooldowns.

[Kalavier.1097]

You do understand a concept known as Gameplay =/= Lore?

[DarkK.7368]

24 minutes ago, Kalavier.1097 said:

You do understand a concept known as Gameplay =/= Lore?

A concept that happens and I can respect, but I don't always agree. Sometimes things can be done different so lore and gameplay matches beautifully.

[Randulf.7614]

Gameplay often has to trump lore or the game wouldn't work. In this case, spamming skills without cooldowns would be a balancing impossibility. If you could keep blocking over and over, what's the downside? We'd need a way to counter that and that means durability or positional attacks. And that would change GW2's combat completely

Also, a lot of it magic based. It's not too big a leap to imagine needing the time to focus the magic and energy into the skill if you need a reason for those type of skills

In this case, the gameplay over lore is an acceptable reason and it works better because of it. It would be a different game otherwise

[Kalavier.1097]

45 minutes ago, Randulf.7614 said:

Gameplay often has to trump lore or the game wouldn't work. In this case, spamming skills without cooldowns would be a balancing impossibility. If you could keep blocking over and over, what's the downside? We'd need a way to counter that and that means durability or positional attacks. And that would change GW2's combat completely

Also, a lot of it magic based. It's not too big a leap to imagine needing the time to focus the magic and energy into the skill if you need a reason for those type of skills

In this case, the gameplay over lore is an acceptable reason and it works better because of it. It would be a different game otherwise

Also we'd absolutely need to factor in racial strengths. A human can't block hits from a Norn for very long after all. An Asura would likely get smushed.

 

[Randulf.7614]

14 minutes ago, Kalavier.1097 said:

An Asura would likely get smushed.

 

I didn't really look at the advantages...

[AliamRationem.5172]

15 hours ago, DarkK.7368 said:

A concept that happens and I can respect, but I don't always agree. Sometimes things can be done different so lore and gameplay matches beautifully.

Sure.  And then you'd have some other arbitrary design serving a similar purpose.  It's pretty simple.  If you have a set of skills with overlapping functionality, you need some way to encourage the use of the weaker skill(s).  There are various ways to handle this. 

Initiative is one, but it's also why thief gameplay tends to be very spammy.  Just use this one best skill over and over until you run out of initiative. 

Another option is to add conditionals.   For example, an attack that deals more damage if the target is under the effect of CC.  This encourages combinations.  But relying too heavily on this can result in rotations that feel very locked in.

A variation on conditionals is to add resource management to them.  For example, one skill generates a resource that is required for two other skills with different effects.  The condition is the same: Use this skill before that skill.  But you now have a choice of which skill to use.  The down side here is that you have to make the skills different in function, which can lead to bloat if relied on too heavily.  It can also feel overly complicated if you start juggling too many resources and conditionals.

Cooldowns are a relatively simple solution with not a lot of downsides.  You can tune them to be appropriate for each skill.  They don't preclude the use of other conditionals and resources.  And they serve the basic function of preventing players from spamming the one best skill for the job over and over again.

[firedragon.8953]

Because in the world of Tyria everything has limitations, be is muscles, machines, or magic. 
Why can't you dash forward a second time. Because tired.
Why can't you throw two magma pools in a role? By the Eternal Alchemy?! How did they even let you out of magic school. You're gonna turn yourself into a fire elemental.

[DarkK.7368]

9 hours ago, AliamRationem.5172 said:

Sure.  And then you'd have some other arbitrary design serving a similar purpose.  It's pretty simple.  If you have a set of skills with overlapping functionality, you need some way to encourage the use of the weaker skill(s).  There are various ways to handle this. 

Initiative is one, but it's also why thief gameplay tends to be very spammy.  Just use this one best skill over and over until you run out of initiative. 

Another option is to add conditionals.   For example, an attack that deals more damage if the target is under the effect of CC.  This encourages combinations.  But relying too heavily on this can result in rotations that feel very locked in.

A variation on conditionals is to add resource management to them.  For example, one skill generates a resource that is required for two other skills with different effects.  The condition is the same: Use this skill before that skill.  But you now have a choice of which skill to use.  The down side here is that you have to make the skills different in function, which can lead to bloat if relied on too heavily.  It can also feel overly complicated if you start juggling too many resources and conditionals.

Cooldowns are a relatively simple solution with not a lot of downsides.  You can tune them to be appropriate for each skill.  They don't preclude the use of other conditionals and resources.  And they serve the basic function of preventing players from spamming the one best skill for the job over and over again.

Interesting, but the initiative one is not 100% accurate. For example, imagine PP thief. Yes, if in this current situation I require damage, I'll spam 3. But if the enemy has a breakbar, I'll spam 4 for daze! And if I need to be defensive for some reason, I'll spam 5 for blinds. And if I need to get distance with the enemy, I'll spam 2 for inmobilize. If the fight creates lots of different situations that require different tools to adapt or combine, then I won't always spam the same, but I'll spam one according to the situation. And if situations are diverse and can even overlap, it may be more efficient to not spam one, but to use different skills.

[AliamRationem.5172]

2 minutes ago, DarkK.7368 said:

Interesting, but the initiative one is not 100% accurate. For example, imagine PP thief. Yes, if in this current situation I require damage, I'll spam 3. But if the enemy has a breakbar, I'll spam 4 for daze! And if I need to be defensive for some reason, I'll spam 5 for blinds. And if I need to get distance with the enemy, I'll spam 2 for inmobilize. If the fight creates lots of different situations that require different tools to adapt or combine, then I won't always spam the same, but I'll spam one according to the situation. And if situations are diverse and can even overlap, it may be more efficient to not spam one, but to use different skills.

The point is you spam the one best skill for whatever purpose until you run out of initiative.  To me, gameplay is more important than nitpicky realism and P/P thief is a perfect example of why we shouldn't design classes this way. 

[Kalavier.1097]

The ultimate point is gameplay has to be balanced. Thus lore is set aside for purely that part.

[cloudsareyum.8120]

With my mages it's because magic spells can't be cast that fast and with melee it's fatigue

[DanAlcedo.3281]

Imagine us being able to play as the in universe commander. 

All Skills at the same time with no CD. 

All traits at the same time. 

All 3 elite specs at the same time. 

Hell, legendary gear should be able to switch stats mid battle too. 

Need to tank a massiv hit? Instantly switch to full minstrel gear. Only instantly switch back to berserker for the counter attack. 

Legendary Sigils + Relic must be Op AF in universe. Being  able to switch the effect at any time. Magically. 

And depending if we count legendary weapons ability to materialis out of thin air. Ala keyblades. We even could use all weapons at the same time. 

Kinda insane. 

[Kalavier.1097]

On 5/17/2024 at 7:02 AM, DanAlcedo.3281 said:

Imagine us being able to play as the in universe commander. 

All Skills at the same time with no CD. 

All traits at the same time. 

All 3 elite specs at the same time. 

Hell, legendary gear should be able to switch stats mid battle too. 

Need to tank a massiv hit? Instantly switch to full minstrel gear. Only instantly switch back to berserker for the counter attack. 

Legendary Sigils + Relic must be Op AF in universe. Being  able to switch the effect at any time. Magically. 

And depending if we count legendary weapons ability to materialis out of thin air. Ala keyblades. We even could use all weapons at the same time. 

Kinda insane. 

Not really sure where you get this viewpoint. The commander isn't some in universe god of warfare and killing.

[draxynnic.3719]

1 hour ago, Kalavier.1097 said:

Not really sure where you get this viewpoint. The commander isn't some in universe god of warfare and killing.

I think the point being made is that the PC has clearly learned all the traits and skills, so why are they limited to only having a handful at a time? They've got an inventory full of weapons, why does landing a hit on an enemy 1000 range away make it impossible to duck behind a rock and dig through your bags for another weapon?

In short, basically another 'at some point you have to acknowledge that game mechanics trump realism' argument. It's likely that a single character only has one set of traits rather than several they can switch between (the original release restricted trait respecs, but that was terrible gameplay-wise). It's also likely that characters don't actually haul around dozens of weapons and pieces of armour at a time.

Referring to the OP: Guild Wars 1 actually had something of an explanation for this: skills were stored in rings (part of the justification of why there was eight then), so presumably a cooldown was due to the ring needing to recover. That was pretty obscure even in GW1 though and has clearly been abandoned now. However, the justification may well be similar to how you justify it for engineer - different spells, even within the same school of magic, don't draw on quite the same pool of resources and therefore expending the resources for one doesn't necessarily mean you can't use another. Maybe summoning that lava pool too many times in quick succession risks melting your staff too. Meteor shower might involve condenscing dust in the upper atmosphere into falling rocks, but doing so depletes the available material directly above for a short period until the atmosphere remixes.

Or maybe it's just that different spells use different channels in your body and brain, and for magic more complex than autoattacks, they need to rest before being used again.

For physical skills, it's worth noting that canonically, even warriors use magic. However, it's performed in a more instinctual way that is primarily channeled inwards to perform otherwise superhuman feats rather than outwards in the form of spells. So the answer, in those cases, might be pretty much exactly the same as it is for spellcasters.

[Kalavier.1097]

1 hour ago, draxynnic.3719 said:

I think the point being made is that the PC has clearly learned all the traits and skills, so why are they limited to only having a handful at a time? They've got an inventory full of weapons, why does landing a hit on an enemy 1000 range away make it impossible to duck behind a rock and dig through your bags for another weapon?

In short, basically another 'at some point you have to acknowledge that game mechanics trump realism' argument. It's likely that a single character only has one set of traits rather than several they can switch between (the original release restricted trait respecs, but that was terrible gameplay-wise). It's also likely that characters don't actually haul around dozens of weapons and pieces of armour at a time.

I mean, that's a completely different line of thought then "And we can cast every spell in our book with no cooldowns and use all the elite spec skills at the same time and have legendary items that just magically change at whim in the middle of a swing of the sword." Even though we know from some examples in-universe Legendary weapons are powerful, but not incredibly powerful beyond anything else others have. 

One is just "Yeah, he's a highly experienced and well-traveled adventurer.", the other is much more of a "God walking among mere mortals of the battlefield"

2 hours ago, draxynnic.3719 said:

For physical skills, it's worth noting that canonically, even warriors use magic. However, it's performed in a more instinctual way that is primarily channeled inwards to perform otherwise superhuman feats rather than outwards in the form of spells. So the answer, in those cases, might be pretty much exactly the same as it is for spellcasters.

Should be noted that for a chunk of the skills, some of the classes can be described as using magic items, using magic, or just using their own gear/strength. Warriors, and Engineers are the two biggest examples of this. It is possible to have higher end warriors that don't actively use magic in any real active sense. Rytlock, before he became a Revenant, was a fine example of such.

 

[DanAlcedo.3281]

On 5/18/2024 at 6:09 PM, Kalavier.1097 said:

Not really sure where you get this viewpoint. The commander isn't some in universe god of warfare and killing.

There is no reason the commander magically forgets how to use full counter when having a Gunsaber equipped. 

Just like not having Gyros anymore because you have a mech. 

There is no reason why the commander forgets how certain traits works or forgets how to kick someone. 

The in universe commander has no game limitations. 

Thats also includes the ability of legendary gear to change stats mid combat. 

And more. 

The in universe commander would be crazy strong because of that. 

Not God like Ofcourse. 

A Warrior stacking Berserker Form with Juggernaut Form teleporting around via Flicker Step (no CD) is therefore possible in universe. The ingame time limit would also not count here.  Making the time depend on the Warriors experience. 

There is nothing saying otherwise that I would know of. 

And fighting that would be scary AF. 

Edited yesterday at 09:22 AM by DanAlcedo.3281

[DarkK.7368]

Interesting. In my mind, yeah, the commander know all of that, but knowing a technique doesn't make you good at it. I may have learned fullcounter, but if my train is poor, or if I'm a year not using it and using other stuff and I forgot, it will be so poor, that using it would gain no benefit. So, the only 3 traits equipped with chosen options, the weapon, etc, is the most recent stuff that we know, that we trained. All the other unequiped stuff, of course we know it, but it's almost forgotten and untrained, so in practice "we can't use it" because it would be like a wet noodle in a real fight. And when we change traits or weapons or skills, in-game we are "changing our"... ¿Memories? ¿Genetics? ¿Time line? ¿Reality? We are changing ourselves at a real level, to a version where the new skill has the experience, and the removed one is again untrained and forgotten.

I'm open for anyone that gets to a lorefriendly explanation for this, it was hard hahshhash and I'm not 100% happy with this

[Kalavier.1097]

6 hours ago, DanAlcedo.3281 said:

There is no reason the commander magically forgets how to use full counter when having a Gunsaber equipped. 

Just like not having Gyros anymore because you have a mech. 

There is no reason why the commander forgets how certain traits works or forgets how to kick someone. 

The in universe commander has no game limitations. 

Thats also includes the ability of legendary gear to change stats mid combat. 

And more. 

The in universe commander would be crazy strong because of that. 

Not God like Ofcourse. 

A Warrior stacking Berserker Form with Juggernaut Form teleporting around via Flicker Step (no CD) is therefore possible in universe. The ingame time limit would also not count here.  Making the time depend on the Warriors experience. 

There is nothing saying otherwise that I would know of. 

And fighting that would be scary AF. 

You seriously need to learn how to split gameplay and lore, is what I think.

Like, entirely. You are describing things that are purely gameplay.

5 hours ago, DarkK.7368 said:

Interesting. In my mind, yeah, the commander know all of that, but knowing a technique doesn't make you good at it. I may have learned fullcounter, but if my train is poor, or if I'm a year not using it and using other stuff and I forgot, it will be so poor, that using it would gain no benefit. So, the only 3 traits equipped with chosen options, the weapon, etc, is the most recent stuff that we know, that we trained. All the other unequiped stuff, of course we know it, but it's almost forgotten and untrained, so in practice "we can't use it" because it would be like a wet noodle in a real fight. And when we change traits or weapons or skills, in-game we are "changing our"... ¿Memories? ¿Genetics? ¿Time line? ¿Reality? We are changing ourselves at a real level, to a version where the new skill has the experience, and the removed one is again untrained and forgotten.

I'm open for anyone that gets to a lorefriendly explanation for this, it was hard hahshhash and I'm not 100% happy with this

You must understand there is a split between lore and gameplay. Raid boss characters of various races aren't massive individuals, etc. Hell, there is basically no real references to stats in the lore at all. Legendary weapons we get as players are copies, and some of them are very much just legendary by social status, not power. Claw of Khan Ur has great social status, but not some super-dagger. Shining Blade has special powers, but isn't ending armies. The one Orrian bow constantly teleports back to Orr, making the Priory mad because they can't study it.

Let's look at "traits" for example. My curses traitline on necro, the lower one. "Critical hits cause bleeding". What's a critical hit, lore-wise? Bleeding also doesn't just stop after 5 seconds. 

"Gain fury (increased critical chance) while entering shroud." What does that even mean, in lore? 

Most of the traits have no real lore reasoning behind them, and are purely gameplay related. As with stats, how many times do traits actually get referenced at all in the lore? I can't think of a single one really.

As for skills? I mean, sure we'd have a nice roster of abilities but that's the thing, you can't cast everything instantly and most importantly, you still have to move around. Having 300 spells doesn't mean anything if you don't get a chance to cast 290 of them. If you wanted a "Lore-friendly" explanation for having five skills? It's a person picking their favorite abilities and having them always be ready for use at a moments notice. You don't have an infinite backpack in reality, so you'd only have a few weapons. You wouldn't be hauling around every single weapon.

 

[DarkK.7368]

17 minutes ago, Kalavier.1097 said:

You seriously need to learn how to split gameplay and lore, is what I think.

 

Of course I know this. I just find fun to figure out / make up excuses / ideas to merge them. Of course 99% of time devs didn't care XD

[Kalavier.1097]

57 minutes ago, DarkK.7368 said:

Of course I know this. I just find fun to figure out / make up excuses / ideas to merge them. Of course 99% of time devs didn't care XD

Oh, entirely true. It's just some things would need a bit more.. flexibility to them compared to what's provided ingame lol.

Traits, if you wanted me to describe them, would be specific tricks/quirks of a class you learn. In some cases, a bit more literal in terms of like, what modifications you do to your gun. So could somebody have all the "traits" learned? probably, but it'd take a long time and require a wide range of studies. Not entirely feasible for most people.