Bleed + Burning Rune

[ZephyrusSpring.5728]

The build crafting space is somewhat stagnant with the majority of condition builds using full vipers gear and trappers runes.  After reviewing many of these builds I noticed a trend of primarily using bleeding and burning.

I believe adding a mixed rune for bleeding and burning (similar to the afflicted rune) would add a new dynamic to the build crafting process.  In terms of stat resource allocation, some builds are already on the cusp of leaving vipers gear, and this rune would likely push them over the edge into a more hybrid damage profile using sinister or grieving gear.

I understand concerns about power creep, as adding new options always allows builds to more accurately focus their stat resources towards their strength.  However in this case, consider how much condition damage would be lost by dropping the trapper runes.  I do not believe a hybrid rune would be an automatic upgrade over trapper runes.  It would depend on how well a build is able to scale strike damage.  See for example how druids opt to use trapper runes over krait or afflicted runes.

Afflicted runes offer an uneven amount of bleed and poison duration, favouring bleed.  So the question is: should this bleed/burning rune follow suit and be uneven? And if so, should it favour bleed or burning?  I’m in favour of burning purely for variety’s sake.

[Parasite.5389]

Poison does 33.5 damage per stack per second
Bleeding does 22 damage per stack per second
burning does 131 damage per stack per second

I think we're fine without combining Burning with anything else

[ZephyrusSpring.5728]

42 minutes ago, Parasite.5389 said:

Poison does 33.5 damage per stack per second
Bleeding does 22 damage per stack per second
burning does 131 damage per stack per second

I think we're fine without combining Burning with anything else

Can you explain how that information led you to that conclusion?  I’m struggling to connect the dots.  It’s not like condi willbender does 6x the damage of condi reaper.

There are plenty of dials and levers that the devs pull on to balance builds.  I’m simply suggesting to add another notch on a dial.

[Parasite.5389]

1 hour ago, ZephyrusSpring.5728 said:

Can you explain how that information led you to that conclusion?  I’m struggling to connect the dots.  It’s not like condi willbender does 6x the damage of condi reaper.

There are plenty of dials and levers that the devs pull on to balance builds.  I’m simply suggesting to add another notch on a dial.

Burning is the most powerful condition (per stack) in the game, with ample rune and trait support as is.
in comparsion, even when combined, Bleeding and Poison doesn't even approach the kind of damage numbers a player can acheive with burning alone, runes like Afflicted almost seem like they're there just to bring that damage in line,.

your suggestions, ignoring all the fancy posturing of "Build craft", is simply "I want to see bigger numbers"

[ZephyrusSpring.5728]

2 hours ago, Parasite.5389 said:

Burning is the most powerful condition (per stack) in the game, with ample rune and trait support as is.
in comparsion, even when combined, Bleeding and Poison doesn't even approach the kind of damage numbers a player can acheive with burning alone, runes like Afflicted almost seem like they're there just to bring that damage in line,.

your suggestions, ignoring all the fancy posturing of "Build craft", is simply "I want to see bigger numbers"

I’m offended that you would make that assumption of me.  That came off as very childish.  On that note, where are you getting your data from?  You say that burning-based builds are the strongest, but offer nothing to back that up.  Let me help you with that.

• Condi willbender: 44k bench, 70% burning

• Condi firebrand: 42k bench, 70% burning

• Condi reaper: 42k bench, 64% bleeding

• Condi Druid: 44k bench, 48% bleed, 20% poison, 16% burning

• Condi daredevil: 43k bench, 49% bleeding, 36% poison

• Condi holosmith: 43k bench: 48% burning, 20% bleeding

• Condi berserker: 42k bench: 42% burning, 25% bleeding

• Condi weaver (perfect accuracy isn’t available): 44k bench, 55-60% burning, 20-30% bleeding

I could go on and on.  All of this data can be observed through arcdps, and the discretize guild’s gear optimiser has a convenient breakdown which anyone can view for themselves.  Based on what you’ve said so far, I suspect you don’t have any involvement in the crafting of builds that appear on snowcrows and the like.  It is clear as day that different builds inflict varying amounts of each condition, and the individual strength of any given condition has ZERO bearing on the total dps of a build or the proportion which that condition makes up.

My goal with adding a new rune is to break up the monotonous dominance that vipers+trappers+fractal currently holds over condition builds.

Edited May 17 by ZephyrusSpring.5728

[Sobx.1758]

35 minutes ago, ZephyrusSpring.5728 said:

My goal with adding a new rune is to break up the monotonous dominance that vipers+trappers+fractal currently holds over condition builds.

And the only way it will be pushed out for burning builds is if the burning runes you want to see will make those builds stronger. Which seems to make this...

3 hours ago, Parasite.5389 said:

your suggestions, ignoring all the fancy posturing of "Build craft", is simply "I want to see bigger numbers"

...correct, doesn't it?

 

Also I'd say that if you want to "break the monotony", stop netscraping meta builds.

[Dadnir.5038]

Strange... I'm pretty sure some build focus heavily on torment... It feel like the OP is giving data that only serve his argument leaving aside a broader picture.

[ZephyrusSpring.5728]

56 minutes ago, Sobx.1758 said:

And the only way it will be pushed out for burning builds is if the burning runes you want to see will make those builds stronger. Which seems to make this correct, doesn't it?

Not necessarily no.  The grieving weaver build is currently a few thousand dps weaker than the vipers build.  Adding a rune to fill its needs would push it up into meta status.  That’s why I said in the OP that it wouldn’t be an automatic upgrade.

Surely you can agree that increasing the number of meta builds is good for the game.

[Parasite.5389]

1 hour ago, ZephyrusSpring.5728 said:

You say that burning-based builds are the strongest, but offer nothing to back that up.

never said burning based builds were the strongest; I said Burning (The effect) is the strongest condition by damage when compared to Bleed and Posion.

but thanks for getting that data and proving my point

[ZephyrusSpring.5728]

Just now, Dadnir.5038 said:

Strange... I'm pretty sure some build focus heavily on torment... It feel like the OP is giving data that only serve his argument leaving aside a broader picture.

It’s not relevant to the discussion and I already spent an hour collecting all of that other data that’s why.  You are welcome to explain how the breakdown of the rest of the builds in the game is relevant. 

[ZephyrusSpring.5728]

4 minutes ago, Parasite.5389 said:

never said burning based builds were the strongest; I said Burning (The effect) is the strongest condition by damage when compared to Bleed and Posion.

but thanks for getting that data and proving my point

You said the burning effect is the strongest and therefore doesn’t need any more support from runes and traits.  You are welcome to explain why condi Druid and condi weaver both use the same gear but put out wildly different proportions of bleeding and burning, and how that all fits into your claims.

[Dadnir.5038]

Just now, ZephyrusSpring.5728 said:

It’s not relevant to the discussion and I already spent an hour collecting all of that other data that’s why.  You are welcome to explain how the breakdown of the rest of the builds in the game is relevant. 

How is it irrelevant? You're basically suggesting the introduction of a piece of equipement that would give an edge to the builds that focus on burning and bleed. It mean that build that focus on different combination of condition would lag behind afterward.

Now, odds are high that even if the devs were to introduce what you suggest people would still stick to trapper runes. There is more value in increasing the duration of all conditions than there is in increasing 1 or 2 specific conditions.

[ZephyrusSpring.5728]

8 minutes ago, Dadnir.5038 said:

How is it irrelevant? You're basically suggesting the introduction of a piece of equipement that would give an edge to the builds that focus on burning and bleed. It mean that build that focus on different combination of condition would lag behind afterward.

Now, odds are high that even if the devs were to introduce what you suggest people would still stick to trapper runes. There is more value in increasing the duration of all conditions than there is in increasing 1 or 2 specific conditions.

Other builds would not lag behind, because as you’ve said in your second paragraph, there would be no great leap in power.

Builds are designed with the understanding that you only have certain pieces to play around with and connect with each other.  One rune, a few sigils, a relic, gear stats, weapons, utilities, and traits.  Builds that currently use vipers+trappers will not be able to plug in a new burning+bleeding rune and do more damage out of the gate.  The excess condition duration will necessitate swapping some vipers gear into sinister or grieving.  That will cause a change in the strike vs condi damage proportions, which may lead to trait, sigil or relic changes.  That whole chain reaction may not lead to a stronger build, but it will lead to something different, and certainly something within the same ballpark strength-wise.

I have identified a burning+bleeding rune to be the missing piece in a variety of hybrid builds which are currently not advertised anywhere,  because they do not match up to the power of existing builds.

[Sobx.1758]

2 hours ago, ZephyrusSpring.5728 said:

Not necessarily no.  The grieving weaver build is currently a few thousand dps weaker than the vipers build.  Adding a rune to fill its needs would push it up into meta status.  That’s why I said in the OP that it wouldn’t be an automatic upgrade.

What "grieving weaver build" are you talking about exactly? "few thousand dps" meaning how much exactly?

2 hours ago, ZephyrusSpring.5728 said:

Surely you can agree that increasing the number of meta builds is good for the game.

You seem to care a bit much about that "meta" word, considering you just wanted to "break monotony" a moment ago. Just because somehow isn't on snowcrows benchmark doesn't mean it's not good enough to play and easly complete the content.

Edited May 17 by Sobx.1758

[Panda.1967]

A Burning + Bleeding rune will never happen. Interactions with Burning are deliberately limited due to how strong burning actually is. There is a reason why Burning has the shortest base duration of all conditions, there is a reason why solo stacking Burning is harder than solo stacking any other condition, there is a reason why most abilities that apply burn do so in small amounts.

Burning was designed to be effectively the equivalent of burst damage but for conditions. It does significantly more damage in shorter bursts. It may not work entirely like that anymore since 100% uptime on burning is possible, but maintaining high stacks is still significantly harder than with any other condi. What you are proposing would offset the delecate balance Anet has been maintaining on Burning.

[Panda.1967]

3 hours ago, ZephyrusSpring.5728 said:

Surely you can agree that increasing the number of meta builds is good for the game.

No, actually it’s not… meta builds in general are NOT good for the game… they dictate balance and design decisions in ways that they never should have. Something becoming meta poses a major challenge for balance. Balancing has to either break the meta or work around the meta. This in turn leads to design decisions that either enforce the meta or subvert it in a way that punishes everyone. Even worse is that any attempt to bring non-meta builds up to par with meta builds will always result in further increasing the power of the meta builds in one way or another. Even a non-meta build becoming the new meta creates the same problems.

Meta is bad, but unfortunately it’s impossible to get rid of so long as we have choices.

Edited May 17 by Panda.1967

[mirage.8046]

this sounds like the fractal relic but if it were like a rune. just no. burning hits very hard but doesn't last long unlike bleeding or poison. when you look at the condi builds on sites, their DPS is more or less similar. favoring one condition over the other or going for different condition durations that condi builds apply will not change the overall DPS; maybe burst damage changes and sustained DPS too but that's that. increasing burning durations also break any remaining delicate balance anet has done to it. they were careful with this for scourge's burning the times they rebalanced it, in particular the May 2021 patch and patches from last summer.

[Panda.1967]

5 hours ago, ZephyrusSpring.5728 said:

You said the burning effect is the strongest and therefore doesn’t need any more support from runes and traits.  You are welcome to explain why condi Druid and condi weaver both use the same gear but put out wildly different proportions of bleeding and burning, and how that all fits into your claims.

That’s quite simple actually.

1) they are completely different classes and as such have different access to abilities and conditions. In general Rangers have greater access to Bleed and Poison than any other conditions and Elementalists have greater access to Burning and Bleed than other conditions. The two professions are going to use different amounts of each condition in their condi builds by the very nature of how they work.

2) Condi Druid has a lot of traits that build towards Bleed and increase their access to Bleed leading to a very bleed heavy build (this is true of all condi Ranger builds, not just Druid). Condi Weaver has a few bleed focused traits but much greater access to Burn focused traits, as a result it has a greater focus on Burning (This is also true of all condi Elementalists builds, not just Weaver).

it doesn’t take a rocket scientist to spot these obvious differences.

[Kyon.4810]

Just woundering how ppl talks about dps in pve content like it does matter rofl.

Just run anything you want, you could even roleplay as beggar without equip in pve and still able to play pve content, because gw2 is to much casual.

Never understood ppl who blaming meta builds - it is so stupid, because meta builds were provided by good players to make gameplay easier, also meta builds were approved by even more good players who actually plays the game. If u dont like meta builds - it is really fine, just play whatever you want but do not complain when you being kicked or die in game, it is actually only your choice how to roleplay in mmorpg and if you want to spent 5-6h for high end content instead of 10-15 mins no one would even try to blame you - just do not join parties/squads which wants to finish content fast and have fun.

[Jedrik.3109]

Stagnet build craft? I do not understand the problem that you are trying to solve. More variety, another notch in the dial. With anet, who has always been panned as slow to update and balance.

I dont understand how what you are propsing would change much of anything. It would be back to stagnet after a week or so. Most times the numbers crunchers are within 1-2k after reading the patch notes. And then the meta shows itself.

Honestly, change whatever you like but you will never stop the reality that people will mathematically compare things. The monotony you hate will just be replace with a different "monotony". Something will always be better or we just have class homogeneity. 

And let's also make this clear. If you are not speed running; the Meta does not matter in any way, shape or form.

I don't understand.  React with confused emoji if you don't understand as well.

[ZephyrusSpring.5728]

5 hours ago, Panda.1967 said:

Burning was designed to be effectively the equivalent of burst damage but for conditions. It does significantly more damage in shorter bursts. It may not work entirely like that anymore since 100% uptime on burning is possible, but maintaining high stacks is still significantly harder than with any other condi.

This point that people keep bringing up is completely divorced from reality.  When anet want conditions to burst harder they make skills inflict multiple stacks at once.  As you can clearly see from the build profiles I posted earlier, condi reaper reaches the same overall damage and proportion with bleeding as firebrand does with burning.  As I said, there are many dials and levers that anet can pull on when balancing things, the dps inflicted by each condition has no bearing on the final outcome.  Any talks of conditions bursting harder have also completely laid bare their lack of knowledge on the topic of increasing condition durations through runes.

I challenge anyone to explain what would happen if you were to swap a burning+bleeding rune into an existing build.  Demonstrate your knowledge of build crafting by describing the chain reaction, the numbers, and the tradeoffs.  Anyone capable of this will already know that such a rune would push builds into dealing more strike damage and less condition damage.

[Leo G.4501]

16 minutes ago, ZephyrusSpring.5728 said:

This point that people keep bringing up is completely divorced from reality.  When anet want conditions to burst harder they make skills inflict multiple stacks at once.  As you can clearly see from the build profiles I posted earlier, condi reaper reaches the same overall damage and proportion with bleeding as firebrand does with burning.  As I said, there are many dials and levers that anet can pull on when balancing things, the dps inflicted by each condition has no bearing on the final outcome.  Any talks of conditions bursting harder have also completely laid bare their lack of knowledge on the topic of increasing condition durations through runes.

You're correct and wrong. You're right in that when the condi build is intended to burst, traits/gear/abilities will stack more of a condi faster.  You're wrong in the scope of how that occurs with different conditions. A burst of bleed might throw down 15 stacks every couple seconds  for a 8sec window using a combo of long cooldowns and icds of traits whereas a burst of burning might be 18-28stacks immediately that lasts for 8sec.  One will peak up around 40+ stacks that lingers while the other will max in the 20s and taper off quickly. Of course, these are just hypothetical numbers but the point is, burning will likely not have the numerical stacks as other condis.  Bursting with bleed/poison vs bursting with burn are supposed have different feels.

That said, I wouldn't turn my nose up to the idea of making some combo condi runes...I just wish they did more with the concept vs just straight duration improvements. Like an effect when applying burn will apply 1 stack of bleed for 4sec and burning on a bleeding target has longer duration.  The concept of "burning blood" or "acid blood" or something could be played around with in interesting ways. Whether that changes up the meta I don't really care tho, lol. 

[Cyninja.2954]

4 hours ago, ZephyrusSpring.5728 said:

I challenge anyone to explain what would happen if you were to swap a burning+bleeding rune into an existing build.  Demonstrate your knowledge of build crafting by describing the chain reaction, the numbers, and the tradeoffs.  Anyone capable of this will already know that such a rune would push builds into dealing more strike damage and less condition damage.

If the burning+bleeding rune improves the builds performance, it will become the new meta pick for builds which produce significant amount of burning+bleeding to take advantage of it.

It would have to be superior to the current options, otherwise it becomes another unused rune in the see of unsused runes, essentially leading to power creep.

The new rune has now becone de facto the only rune used for burning+bleed builds. The effect of opening up more build options or increasing build diversity is as such not given (for meta builds, which you are focusing on).

TL;DR:

Your idea does not solve the issue you want to have solved while at the same time introducing new issues which might cause problems.

Edited May 18 by Cyninja.2954

[Panda.1967]

5 hours ago, ZephyrusSpring.5728 said:

This point that people keep bringing up is completely divorced from reality.  When anet want conditions to burst harder they make skills inflict multiple stacks at once.  As you can clearly see from the build profiles I posted earlier, condi reaper reaches the same overall damage and proportion with bleeding as firebrand does with burning.  As I said, there are many dials and levers that anet can pull on when balancing things, the dps inflicted by each condition has no bearing on the final outcome.  Any talks of conditions bursting harder have also completely laid bare their lack of knowledge on the topic of increasing condition durations through runes.

I challenge anyone to explain what would happen if you were to swap a burning+bleeding rune into an existing build.  Demonstrate your knowledge of build crafting by describing the chain reaction, the numbers, and the tradeoffs.  Anyone capable of this will already know that such a rune would push builds into dealing more strike damage and less condition damage.

You seem to have a problem grasping the fundamentals.

Condi Reaper DPS is sustained DPS with its bleeds, a good Condi Reaper can maintain a relatively consistent number of bleed stacks indefinitely and when they do get a damage burst it is either strike damage or a small additional amount of bleed for about 10-15 seconds.

Condi Firebrand has a constant fluctuation in damage as they cycle between high stack burst phases and low stack sustain. During their sustain phases their damage is actually much lower than a Condi Reapers, but they can burst for significantly higher damage over about a 3-6 second period.

Before you go reading more benchmarks off snowcrows meta builds to use as a basis for your argument you should perhaps actually familiarize yourself with how the builds and professions actually work. I regularly play every profession I have seen first hand how they function. I actually run a Condi Reaper and a Condi Firebrand even. The difference in their sustainable DPS is like night and day, and when the firebrand can burst most enemies just melt immediately.

[ZephyrusSpring.5728]

I’m still waiting for you to describe what would happen to a build when one such mixed rune similar to afflicted runes was used instead of trappers.  Surely you understand that it would lead to less condition damage and more strike damage.  Surely you can describe to me the simple trade off of expertise vs ferocity that would occur.