State of weaver (feedback)

[Mevelios.4809]

14 hours ago, rotten.9753 said:

By Rebound you probably meant Elemental Celerity? The HealCata is atm a meme build, no one uses it seriously. It's pretty much a core ele with quickness, you have 0 catalyst utilities because it's not been designed for support and for PvE where it actually matters. Staff has stability but it's super slow to get energy so you need to use IceBow to compensate. On the other hand you may use D/Wh or even S/Wh which both have superior energy generation but then you lose your stability. You can get it from RockSolid but you have to lose Arcane. It's way too limiting compared to other classes.

My point was comparing heal cata to heal tempest; you don't play either of them because you want performance, otherwise you'd go druid/scourge/chrono/herald. You play either of them because you like what elementalist offers; I don't consider Qheal cata a mere "meme build" , it's a lot more reliant on combos that've been forgotten by "performers", and takes a lot more dedication (on theory AND in practice) to make it work.

All encounters can be done without arcane spec, unless running encounters with players in learning (or plain careless). The extra concentration and boons on attunement change are welcome, but cata spheres already do a decent job at providing boons. Besides, the free geyser on ress supposedly isn't your job at first, while the healing dodge is more of a filler freebie than anything else - and we're getting standardized group barrier on earth spec in a few weeks seemingly (now, if they could fix the lame varying ranges accross all e-specs, earth stab on 240 radius is very small and could definitely go up to 360, then let's not talk about the many different tempest overload ranges - could definitely be standardized to 360 as well).

Staff on cata heal is indeed disastrous, something I've related earlier (or was it in a different ele topic?). That thing also needs adressing, badly - in stab encounters I'd indeed never bother playing Qheal cata, it simply is disastrous with that weapon. I already did bother before, my support at the time was disastrous; forget it!

12 hours ago, rotten.9753 said:

It wouldn't solve everything because you still wouldn't be able to have a healer weaver. Neither Weaver nor Cata were designed as support-ish classes but Cata at least pumps up boons, Weaver is absolutely a selfish class.

Might be my interpretation but I think you're too focused on e-spec utilities; there are already a few worthwhile choices in base ele utilities (not all focused on direct healing and I'd welcome a base group condi cleanse or even light field, but oh well).

Weaver has interesting dual attacks, especially on staff which I rely on when going HK. Well, maybe minus Monsoon (water/air attack, on phone so can't link wiki entry) because the thing doesn't buff its caster when it could prove to be a cleansing tool with the right water trait. The short attunement cooldowns could trigger often the arcane boon trait, and a small rework on the two useless PvE traits Elemental pursuit/Woven stride (can't tell for other modes if they're useful) could prove fun by either of them making Primordial stance pulse boons instead of conditions (why not proximity healing pulsations as well, rather than damages). Invigorating strikes could be made a group tool as well to make it interesting!

There are possibilities, some I find interesting, but no way to tell whether it'd interest the team or not, and by presupposing a third e-spec would have access to either quickness either alacrity... too many ifs!

Edited May 31 by Mevelios.4809

[rotten.9753]

9 hours ago, Mevelios.4809 said:

Might be my interpretation but I think you're too focused on e-spec utilities; there are already a few worthwhile choices in base ele utilities (not all focused on direct healing and I'd welcome a base group condi cleanse or even light field, but oh well).

That's the thing, core utilities are also atrocious when it comes to support, except very few exceptions, all of them are selfish. The only exceptions I can see are:

• Signet of Water
• Glyph of Renewal (for some reason it was nerfed to 90s CD in PvE based on its PvP "performance" and was never unnerfed like Signet of Mercy was.
• Ice Bow for heals on auto attacks but it takes too long

Some utilities which are strictly selfish defensive tools could be made AoE for PvE - Arcane Shield, Armor of Earth, Cleansing Fire. There's absolutely no reason why Armor of Earth gives 10 stacks of stability for 6 seconds when there's no way to lose them (unless stripped) as one stack of stability can be removed every 0.75 seconds.

Instead, we're getting CD reductions which won't help Elementalist in high-end PvE at all.

[asket.5674]

On 5/29/2024 at 8:06 AM, Zhaid Zhem.6508 said:

You forget the insane 250 barrier for 5 players on dual attacks, best support trait of GW2.

But this actually could be the right lever, drastically increasing the barrier value and probably balancing it with a cooldown could bring some sustain to weaver and the squad. It could also bring some identity to the spec if other traits that provide or manipulate barrier get adjusted too.

[Zhaid Zhem.6508]

If they want to give barriers in divers weaver's utilities -traits, skills, weapon skills, runes(before relics)- but barriers are low, at least they should push the mechanic a litlle further :
Give a modifier if you have barrier, grant quickness/might when you apply barrier, etc.

Same with Bolstered Elements; stab was insane back in the days, I get why they changed it for Barriers; but they changed it again for protection ? Why ?  While catalyst spam stab with auras ?  It makes no sense.

[draxynnic.3719]

15 hours ago, Mevelios.4809 said:

Besides, the free geyser on ress supposedly isn't your job at first

I think the important part of that trait isn't that healers want to be spending any significant time rubbing, it's that you can spend half a second to trigger the geyser and then go back to regular healing or, better yet, if you're running staff, you can contribute to resses as part of your normal healing rotation.

[Mevelios.4809]

9 hours ago, draxynnic.3719 said:

I think the important part of that trait isn't that healers want to be spending any significant time rubbing, it's that you can spend half a second to trigger the geyser and then go back to regular healing or, better yet, if you're running staff, you can contribute to resses as part of your normal healing rotation.

Indeed, that's how I use it; what I had in mind is, it's a decent help on the side but not a focal point. When a single person goes down, several people ressing bring them back up in a moment, whereas should several fall Renewal of earth from the glyph can get three of them up; Arcane resurrection is a good trait, sure, and so are Evasive arcana/Elemental enchantment (could expand it to Elemental attunement although we got again the range issue, harmonizing all such AoEs to 360 radius like most healers would go a long way towards bringing any healer elementalist in line with competitors) yet all of those perks are far from mandatory, they're a convenient help at most filling a small gap on occasions. The small supportive boost from the 06/25 preview about diamond skin offering a group cleanse on any blast finisher is likely to make me disregard arcane spec in the near future, removing the near mandatory reliance on Cleansing water I felt on high condi pressure encounters, giving room for using more often Soothing power or even Powerful aura (the latter tied to earth's Elemental shielding).

On the opposite though I misread Earth's embrace merging into Earthen blast - the barrier will be personal, not a group tool. Bit of a shame, could've been interesting!

17 hours ago, rotten.9753 said:

That's the thing, core utilities are also atrocious when it comes to support, except very few exceptions, all of them are selfish. The only exceptions I can see are: [Signet of water/Glyph of renewal/Ice bow]

Don't discard Arcane wave; while it was more convenient before as an instant blast finisher at a distance (now a jump locking you into an animation), it can find plenty of uses from combos. CC on its own, Karakosa interaction, extra healing if blasted into a water field, 3 might stacks into a fire field for 40s (if 100% boon duration), area ice aura into an ice field (if you have any interaction with armors), 20s swiftness into a lightning field (not much but makes the difference in few occasions - think of Q2 CM) and I'll ignore the soft CCs, since in group play you shouldn't run out of it. That sort of interaction is one of the strong points of arcane spec's Evasive arcana - on top of water's healing+condi removal, the earth dodge is a blast finisher; that trait IMO is the most interesting of the entire spec. It's also the reason why I run Arcane brilliance on Qheal cata, although it could definitely see its extra healing from a successful blast finisher be made a group tool, so there's a real benefit beyond a few boons in ensuring a proper combo finisher.

The Lightning hammer can also have surprising interactions on Qheal cata, since its autoattack chain ends with a blast finisher with the added value of providing two good CC skills (and some built-in self quickness if you need a quick burst to restart your energy generation). You provide the spheres for quickness & combo fields, then you just blast 'em all away for a while. It won't hold up to encounters with high damage pressure obviously, but otherwise is a very simplistic yet working method to produce effortless boons & healing (although restricted obviously to the conjured weapon's duration and whether allies pick up the weapon on the ground or not), healing being definitely noticeable in water sphere fields. You more or less play the way an Aheal willbender does doing that with the accompanying restrictions (proximity healing only); energy's a bit of a pain to manage in that case, however a single Firestorm does roughly work as good as hammer's Invoke lightning does (albeit much slower at taking effect, so you should anticipate Firestorm's cast). The method can be used on tempest, however only the fire & air overloads produce fields so it's not as reliable!

Arcane power used to be a possibility even if having a very small impact, but no more, which is kind of a shame.

18 hours ago, rotten.9753 said:

Some utilities which are strictly selfish defensive tools could be made AoE for PvE - Arcane Shield, Armor of Earth, Cleansing Fire. There's absolutely no reason why Armor of Earth gives 10 stacks of stability for 6 seconds when there's no way to lose them (unless stripped) as one stack of stability can be removed every 0.75 seconds.

That's something I 120% agree with, the question being the implementation. Without thinking it through, I'd associate it with Soothing disruption (catalyst having trouble providing regen) so the trait also alters cantrip skills effects: Cleansing fire is thus turned into a group condi cleanse where the might stacks would be based on caster's (ele) removed conditions, while Armor of earth could be made into a group stab tool primarily with three stacks instead of the actual ten (then either barrier, either protection boon - likely not both so it doesn't become excessive, barrier being what would interest me the most out of these two). Can't tell yet what I'd think of the changes associated with remaining cantrip skills, but I'd already be afraid of making it too powerful a trait against its competitors; then there are arcane skills which are harder to approach, with the current effets of Arcane lightning. A source of aegis in the lot would be definitely welcome as a solution to either keeping Aftershock on the side for that very purpose, either saving 10 energy and earth attunement CD at all times for the earth sphere.

Still I must admit I'm not fond of tying such skill behaviour changes to a target spec, it turns these specs into must-haves. Some ground to think over!

[soulknight.9620]

@Mevelios.4809 Yeap, or you can just play chrono/FB/etc and have all of this in 1 simple button with low cd 😆

Edited June 2 by soulknight.9620

[Arheundel.6451]

17 hours ago, Mevelios.4809 said:

Indeed, that's how I use it; what I had in mind is, it's a decent help on the side but not a focal point. When a single person goes down, several people ressing bring them back up in a moment, whereas should several fall Renewal of earth from the glyph can get three of them up; Arcane resurrection is a good trait, sure, and so are Evasive arcana/Elemental enchantment (could expand it to Elemental attunement although we got again the range issue, harmonizing all such AoEs to 360 radius like most healers would go a long way towards bringing any healer elementalist in line with competitors) yet all of those perks are far from mandatory, they're a convenient help at most filling a small gap on occasions. The small supportive boost from the 06/25 preview about diamond skin offering a group cleanse on any blast finisher is likely to make me disregard arcane spec in the near future, removing the near mandatory reliance on Cleansing water I felt on high condi pressure encounters, giving room for using more often Soothing power or even Powerful aura (the latter tied to earth's Elemental shielding).

On the opposite though I misread Earth's embrace merging into Earthen blast - the barrier will be personal, not a group tool. Bit of a shame, could've been interesting!

Don't discard Arcane wave; while it was more convenient before as an instant blast finisher at a distance (now a jump locking you into an animation), it can find plenty of uses from combos. CC on its own, Karakosa interaction, extra healing if blasted into a water field, 3 might stacks into a fire field for 40s (if 100% boon duration), area ice aura into an ice field (if you have any interaction with armors), 20s swiftness into a lightning field (not much but makes the difference in few occasions - think of Q2 CM) and I'll ignore the soft CCs, since in group play you shouldn't run out of it. That sort of interaction is one of the strong points of arcane spec's Evasive arcana - on top of water's healing+condi removal, the earth dodge is a blast finisher; that trait IMO is the most interesting of the entire spec. It's also the reason why I run Arcane brilliance on Qheal cata, although it could definitely see its extra healing from a successful blast finisher be made a group tool, so there's a real benefit beyond a few boons in ensuring a proper combo finisher.

The Lightning hammer can also have surprising interactions on Qheal cata, since its autoattack chain ends with a blast finisher with the added value of providing two good CC skills (and some built-in self quickness if you need a quick burst to restart your energy generation). You provide the spheres for quickness & combo fields, then you just blast 'em all away for a while. It won't hold up to encounters with high damage pressure obviously, but otherwise is a very simplistic yet working method to produce effortless boons & healing (although restricted obviously to the conjured weapon's duration and whether allies pick up the weapon on the ground or not), healing being definitely noticeable in water sphere fields. You more or less play the way an Aheal willbender does doing that with the accompanying restrictions (proximity healing only); energy's a bit of a pain to manage in that case, however a single Firestorm does roughly work as good as hammer's Invoke lightning does (albeit much slower at taking effect, so you should anticipate Firestorm's cast). The method can be used on tempest, however only the fire & air overloads produce fields so it's not as reliable!

Arcane power used to be a possibility even if having a very small impact, but no more, which is kind of a shame.

That's something I 120% agree with, the question being the implementation. Without thinking it through, I'd associate it with Soothing disruption (catalyst having trouble providing regen) so the trait also alters cantrip skills effects: Cleansing fire is thus turned into a group condi cleanse where the might stacks would be based on caster's (ele) removed conditions, while Armor of earth could be made into a group stab tool primarily with three stacks instead of the actual ten (then either barrier, either protection boon - likely not both so it doesn't become excessive, barrier being what would interest me the most out of these two). Can't tell yet what I'd think of the changes associated with remaining cantrip skills, but I'd already be afraid of making it too powerful a trait against its competitors; then there are arcane skills which are harder to approach, with the current effets of Arcane lightning. A source of aegis in the lot would be definitely welcome as a solution to either keeping Aftershock on the side for that very purpose, either saving 10 energy and earth attunement CD at all times for the earth sphere.

Still I must admit I'm not fond of tying such skill behaviour changes to a target spec, it turns these specs into must-haves. Some ground to think over!

Stay away from cantrips...changing  armor of earth from personal stacks to 3 for all team? What are you even smoking? There are other game modes than PvE, this is a MMO and we are not about to turn ele in a free kill so that pvers can roleplay as guardian in pve

[Arheundel.6451]

On 6/1/2024 at 8:07 AM, rotten.9753 said:

That's the thing, core utilities are also atrocious when it comes to support, except very few exceptions, all of them are selfish. The only exceptions I can see are:

• Signet of Water
• Glyph of Renewal (for some reason it was nerfed to 90s CD in PvE based on its PvP "performance" and was never unnerfed like Signet of Mercy was.
• Ice Bow for heals on auto attacks but it takes too long

Some utilities which are strictly selfish defensive tools could be made AoE for PvE - Arcane Shield, Armor of Earth, Cleansing Fire. There's absolutely no reason why Armor of Earth gives 10 stacks of stability for 6 seconds when there's no way to lose them (unless stripped) as one stack of stability can be removed every 0.75 seconds.

Instead, we're getting CD reductions which won't help Elementalist in high-end PvE at all.

...NO? There is absolutely no reason why the best defensive utility on ele should be touched gor pve. Have a go with all the worthless glyphs, conjure, arcane ...plenty to suggest there and make pvers happy. Cantrips are defensive tools for ele , they have been carrying ele since launch and it will stay like that! There is plenty else to go around and change for your pve content 

[vardeleanu.8972]

That's a great Idea,  but i'd rather they just give us self quickness on weave skills without taking out survivability or damage. It's hardly any durability to take away from anyway, and it would fit right in on the trait that gives you swiftness on weave skills, or a minor trait. While at it they could also make one of the minor tempest traits give you self quickness when you start an overload, since tempest and willbender are the only 2 alac builds whose alac uptime depends on quickness uptime, which feels bad. Chrono already has that so it shouldn't be an issue.

Alternatively, here's another idea : they rework conjures (like they should have for 5 years) and make lightning hammer give good self quickness uptime in PvE. The hammer already does it with skill 2, just very badly, and that would also give tempest and core elementalist self quickness in Open World.

 

Edited June 2 by vardeleanu.8972

[Purple Effects.2503]

On 5/29/2024 at 1:20 PM, soulknight.9620 said:

Im advocating for options, not obligations. I would like to get some self quick with no cost, but im ready to negotiate with anet -_- (thats how desperate i am)

I'm Not going to lie, I am new to the game so my opinions Likely aren't the most informed ones, However Elementalist seems like the only one who actually has to trade off for things, And should come with no cost.

but your character is already Balanced around these boons being 100% uptime. so the trade offs are already in place. to further go ahead with a Inbuilt trade off for this would be salt to the wound, I'd honestly go further then this also, Balance is never perfect in any game and I don't think anyone honestly expects it to be 100% Achieved, However the idea is to reduce the disparity as much as possible while making exciting changes to each classes to encourage players to play these classes, that's how u achieve a Diverse Player base Instead of 60% of the players playing 2 classes.

If Elementalist Goes OP for a 3 month Patch cycle to Add some Much needed changes, to get people playing the class to potentially pull more players maining the class, It has to happen. 

I reliese i say this as a Necromancer, I generally have always chosen the darker themed caster compared to the Mage Fantasy, but im NGL Anyone who spends more then 30 minutes reading information and players Feedback on Ele would back out of the decision anyway, People generally look at the most played and least played classes, As its a very good Measurement of Where Balancing and Also the most exciting changes are. as naturally players Will bulk play the Most powerful classes and the Recently buffed classes as a majority.

Walking into a game where u see A LARGE majority in 2-3 Classes SPeaks volumes as a New Player, In all honesty I'd just give Weaver 100% Self Quickness Uptime free to it, Put it on its Element Swapping, and make it last long enough to flow with its rotation, Go Further get People wanting to play this Class while ur at it Buff staff, Even if it ends up OP. I am willing to bet theres a Large portion of players who pick a Elementalist as their first char expecting to be a Mage, the Melee mage style is cool. Swords on Casters is cool as a whole, however It needs Ranged Options, Wizard is the Most popular Class across the board in MMORPGS. Not having one is madness 

 

[rotten.9753]

9 hours ago, Arheundel.6451 said:

...NO? There is absolutely no reason why the best defensive utility on ele should be touched gor pve. Have a go with all the worthless glyphs, conjure, arcane ...plenty to suggest there and make pvers happy. Cantrips are defensive tools for ele , they have been carrying ele since launch and it will stay like that! There is plenty else to go around and change for your pve content 

There's a split between PvP and PvE, you know that? Also, Who cares about PvP, it's a dead mode.

Edited June 3 by rotten.9753

[Arheundel.6451]

1 hour ago, rotten.9753 said:

There's a split between PvP and PvE, you know that? Also, Who cares about PvP, it's a dead mode.

It's not about what you or me like to play ele with and where. It's about keeping consistency across all game modes and that's the purpose in a MMO! Every single spec should be viable and fun to use everywhere, ofc with differences in traits and skills but viable everywhere regardless. Several sets of utilities and traits can be used to accommodate requests for alacrity and quickness: conjures-glyphs-arcane, several GM traits nobody ever use...but you expect Anet to nerf those few GM and that single line of utilities: cantrips, all pvp eles have been using since launch because.....

But this is a MMO, with pve-pvp-wvw and people get to enjoy it in whichever way they like. You have conjures, glyphs and arcane skills to change and give you all the alacrity you need...but out of selfishness you want Anet to change the single type of utility eles need to survive in PvP and all because you don't like pvp..hum ok?!

[Dreamonology.8362]

good ol unhinged pve vs pvp divide, where people always call the mode they hate "Dead" lol if you want to go on pure statistics, there is more people doing Spvp, than those that are involved in raiding. Raiding/strikes prob the smallest participation out of everything in gw2....

[zeyeti.8347]

7 minutes ago, DivineDreaming.7206 said:

good ol unhinged pve vs pvp divide, where people always call the mode they hate "Dead" lol if you want to go on pure statistics, there is more people doing Spvp, than those that are involved in raiding. Raiding/strikes prob the smallest participation out of everything in gw2....

Dunno where you find that data but here is mine , looked up on achiev stats from efficiency and the rarest achiev are by far pvp related (not only cunting the 20 step achiev.) when you see raiding strikes etc , people have way more done those , but that doesn't imply i am correct , it doesn't prove 100% endgame pve beat pvp in term of success.

But i would gladly know where you find these numbers.

I think we all agree that the mainstream is open world pve , while i question myself why does anet make then new strikes , fractals and may probably make a new raid wing ? on the other side pvp updates : 0 ! that's reall notr very marketing wise if pvp has a bigger playrate than endgame pve. And a pvp update really shouldn't be that hard to do , making 50% of a map , then copypaste this on the other half , or make a capture the flag mode ...

[rotten.9753]

45 minutes ago, Arheundel.6451 said:

Every single spec should be viable and fun to use everywhere, ofc with differences in traits and skills but viable everywhere regardless.

Agreed, the problem is ele is not viable everywhere.

46 minutes ago, Arheundel.6451 said:

Several sets of utilities and traits can be used to accommodate requests for alacrity and quickness:

Not sure where have you read that, definitely not from me.

 

[rotten.9753]

23 minutes ago, DivineDreaming.7206 said:

good ol unhinged pve vs pvp divide, where people always call the mode they hate "Dead" lol if you want to go on pure statistics, there is more people doing Spvp, than those that are involved in raiding. Raiding/strikes prob the smallest participation out of everything in gw2....

Pure statistics is that you can play casually and be top250 while there are like 5000 people with voidwalker title alone.

[AliamRationem.5172]

2 hours ago, DivineDreaming.7206 said:

good ol unhinged pve vs pvp divide, where people always call the mode they hate "Dead" lol if you want to go on pure statistics, there is more people doing Spvp, than those that are involved in raiding. Raiding/strikes prob the smallest participation out of everything in gw2....

I agree that they should not ignore PvP, but if there's a dead mode in this game PvP is it.  I've been playing since HoT released and even then top 250 consisted of upper plat 1 through legendary rank and I was within 1 win of making the cut in my first season playing.  That was 8 years ago we didn't even have a healthy population, but it's far worse now with the top 250 starting at upper gold 2!  And of course we all know that a significant portion of that leaderboard is clogged with alts of the same players.  We can't know how many players participate in raiding, but I think it's a stretch to assume there are less than participate in PvP at this point.

[Mevelios.4809]

On 6/2/2024 at 12:51 PM, soulknight.9620 said:

@Mevelios.4809 Yeap, or you can just play chrono/FB/etc and have all of this in 1 simple button with low cd 😆

That's why I replied earlier in this topic to @rotten.9753 that something like Qheal cata was not a "meme build" IMO, but something that takes a lot more dedication than builds deemed performing as "best" currently. I'm also an oddball running an Aheal mirage (still consider myself a mesmer main before anything else) and for all the laughter directed at my gameplay, at least I make my weekly CM raids & strikes without needing a "meta" build to succeed 😉

21 hours ago, Arheundel.6451 said:

Stay away from cantrips...changing  armor of earth from personal stacks to 3 for all team? What are you even smoking? There are other game modes than PvE, this is a MMO and we are not about to turn ele in a free kill so that pvers can roleplay as guardian in pve

That's what competitive splits are here for. 10 stacks of stab in PvE are utterly meaningless and don't bring anything to the player in any situation, when turning it into a group tool could make it find use the way many similar stab-providing abilities work. Again, a group tool <in PvE only>.

20 hours ago, Arheundel.6451 said:

...NO? There is absolutely no reason why the best defensive utility on ele should be touched gor pve. Have a go with all the worthless glyphs, conjure, arcane ...plenty to suggest there and make pvers happy. Cantrips are defensive tools for ele , they have been carrying ele since launch and it will stay like that! There is plenty else to go around and change for your pve content 

Conjured weapons can't make it because of their CDs and how they vanish as soon as you let go of them, not to say when allies pick it up on your stead; the very system upon which they work is flawed IMO. I'd take engi kits instead anytime and even hope for such a change to happen, with possibly a downtime between each reactivation the way holo's forge does for whatever lore considerations if it must be. The only two current weapons somewhat working would be the hammer in catalyst's hands I described above, and the bow again in catalyst's hands when struggling with energy, both of which can easily be disregarded as soon as you've learned to handle situations with your ordinary weapon set instead. The only exception would be the elite greatsword to use a single skill on power damage dealers before discarding it, a shame for a 180s CD "elite" skill.

Glyphs have already PvE uses. Renewal for resses, storms or lesser elementals for damage dealers (although you only want the fire one for the latter), finally elemental power that could honestly change since it's only used for... golem testing. Only one option there, possibly two through elemental harmony but healing skills aren't really targeted so far at other functionalities besides healing/cleansing, the only exception coming to my mind right now being the firebrand.

Arcane skills also have their uses. The wave (AoE daze) has plenty of uses as long as you remember the concept of combos, which eles are very capable at producing with their many fields - similar thing about brilliance, for which I made a suggestion earlier. Power was denied as a group utility for PvP/WvW considerations if I'm not mistaken (might be wrong, lost track of several of such changes). Blast is a pure damage utility, then shield is our only aegis-like tool that enables several peculiar roles such as Deimos or Q1 encounters. I mentioned earlier possibilities for Arcane lightning, but right now it's largely an offensive, selfish trait on a hybrid spec that doesn't fit into pure damage builds, neither into support builds.

See, things you deem useless out of a PvP view have use for PvE, the reverse being true as well. Again, that's where competitive splits could help because those game modes will NEVER play the same way where targets vastly differ, and trying to keep the same functionalities accross all game modes already proved impossible obviously - otherwise there wouldn't be splits existing! At release it was possible with simpler and much slower mechanics, today no more; that extra layer of complexity is now necessary to bring ele to the level of other classes. So long as that step isn't taken, the entire ele archetype will remain stuck between PvE & PvP tools not only distinguished by their utility type, but also merged into their build specs, always leaving more traits useless in one content or the other, ever reducing the range of possibilities!

Edited June 3 by Mevelios.4809

[Tuco.2419]

On 5/29/2024 at 12:24 AM, AliamRationem.5172 said:

It was supposed to be fine.  Why not have a selfish DPS?  It was only later that they decided it wasn't good to take that into account in the power budget.  No boons even for yourself?  No problem!  Until they decided every class should be able to play support and almost every single spec except weaver now has quickness or alacrity along with other boons.  It just doesn't make sense anymore.

I checked into these forums just now to see if you were still posting and what you had to say about the weaver's balance. You always seemed to be a proponent that the weaver, when played well, was extremely effective, so to see you say the weaver is in a bad state is depressing!

I last played when EoD came out and because of the state of the weaver I rolled a Mechanist and disliked everything about it and quit as soon as I finished the last quest without bothering to do any end-game stuff.

 

If ArenaNet ever balances the Weaver to be a solid specialization again, I'd be happy to return to GW2 and gladly pay $$$ for all the new content and whatever other toys. I'm sure I'm not alone!

[AliamRationem.5172]

24 minutes ago, Tuco.2419 said:

I checked into these forums just now to see if you were still posting and what you had to say about the weaver's balance. You always seemed to be a proponent that the weaver, when played well, was extremely effective, so to see you say the weaver is in a bad state is depressing!

I last played when EoD came out and because of the state of the weaver I rolled a Mechanist and disliked everything about it and quit as soon as I finished the last quest without bothering to do any end-game stuff.

 

If ArenaNet ever balances the Weaver to be a solid specialization again, I'd be happy to return to GW2 and gladly pay $$$ for all the new content and whatever other toys. I'm sure I'm not alone!

It just can't keep up with other classes like untamed and reaper that have free boons and sustain while dealing better damage than weaver can.  It's a somewhat better situation in groups where these advantages don't matter so much, but let's face it.  There's a reason all elementalist specs are near the bottom in representation.  

As I said the issue is the design hasn't changed since 2017 while most other specs have.  At that time they wanted specs to have tradeoffs and it was okay for a class to have no viable support options.  That's all changed since then,  but weaver hasn't. 

[Mevelios.4809]

13 minutes ago, AliamRationem.5172 said:

It just can't keep up with other classes like untamed and reaper that have free boons and sustain while dealing better damage than weaver can.  It's a somewhat better situation in groups where these advantages don't matter so much, but let's face it.  There's a reason all elementalist specs are near the bottom in representation.

You're referring to some of the best power burst dps though, many competitors pale in comparison - but I get where it's coming from, just opposing how sudden their damage spikes are when our sword skills like Flame uprising or Pyro vortex need a few seconds to do their full effect. The representation I'd attribute more to the accessibility of the class (I mean, it's no mechanist or herald) and how unforgiving it is to mess up your attunements though! And the expectation of a successful Weave self. Having a full 30s window to make full use of it then waiting on its CD to get back at pulling another similar performance isn't feasible on several occasions.

The character still performs well on many encounters, although I can only agree between those phasing often and the few promoting piercing attacks, weaver is rather low on the ladder.

Edited June 4 by Mevelios.4809

[soulknight.9620]

14 hours ago, Mevelios.4809 said:

You're referring to some of the best power burst dps though, many competitors pale in comparison - but I get where it's coming from, just opposing how sudden their damage spikes are when our sword skills like Flame uprising or Pyro vortex need a few seconds to do their full effect.

It has always been this way. Ele was always about stacking loads of pulsing fields/attacks to get a decent dps. Nothing changed here. 

The thing AliamRationem is refering to is that ele (weaver) does the same amount of dps (or slightly less in some fights) while being cripled by: 1) melee range (power sword build), 2) desperate dependance on boon uptime (if your boon support slacks you loose dps by a lot), 3) low survivability, 4) lack of "flex slots" on utility (you have to take all of the dps utilities if you want to compete). Other specs like reaper dont have this, they have ranged options (staff), selfsustainable quickness uptime (and might too), loads of HP and a "second health bar", a few flex slots to throw in more utility without loosing loads of dps in the process. And to be fair sword/wh weaver has good burst potential too if played correctly and in ideal situation (thanks to glyph of storms), so i see no problem with comparing the two. 

14 hours ago, Mevelios.4809 said:

The representation I'd attribute more to the accessibility of the class (I mean, it's no mechanist or herald) and how unforgiving it is to mess up your attunements though!

Nah, its not. When Catalyst came into play with EOD and was "a bit" overtuned, the play rate was pretty good even though there were only "a few people" who could manage the rotation on a decent level. Representation is all about "what you bring to the group". If weaver would do 20+% more dps than other specs you would actually see a lot more representation than now. Or if it had more utility like virtuoso for example. Atm the only thing you bring to a team is THE SAME amount of dps (or even lower) that every other spec can bring while having 0 utility and being cripled by the abovemntioned factors. The "hard to play" argument has been cripling every debate on ele forums for years now. A lot of aspects of ele were simplified in past few years. There are even "braindead" button mashing builds that do somewhat decent damage. But people still dont play it. The complexity is not the problem. The "kit" is. 

14 hours ago, Mevelios.4809 said:

The character still performs well on many encounters

It performs well only if you take into acount its dps and cross out all of the other aspects ive listed above. And the amount of encounters that weaver/cata can safely stay melee is getting less and less with every update. You literary have split phases in all of new content. And as soon as things go bad in your group (lets say lacking boon uptime or a healer dies etc) weaver can just die in a few secs or loose like 70% of his dps instantly, while said reaper could continue to do dps loosing a few % of his dps and/or survive long enough to ress people. 

So the question is simple: why take weaver over reaper or virtuoso? (ofc aestetics are not on the table, cause that would make this debate pointless by default). 

Edited June 5 by soulknight.9620

[draxynnic.3719]

On 6/4/2024 at 2:20 AM, Mevelios.4809 said:

Conjured weapons can't make it because of their CDs and how they vanish as soon as you let go of them, not to say when allies pick it up on your stead; the very system upon which they work is flawed IMO. I'd take engi kits instead anytime and even hope for such a change to happen, with possibly a downtime between each reactivation the way holo's forge does for whatever lore considerations if it must be. The only two current weapons somewhat working would be the hammer in catalyst's hands I described above, and the bow again in catalyst's hands when struggling with energy, both of which can easily be disregarded as soon as you've learned to handle situations with your ordinary weapon set instead. The only exception would be the elite greatsword to use a single skill on power damage dealers before discarding it, a shame for a 180s CD "elite" skill.

I've been advocating for conjures to lose the second weapon in exchange for cutting the cooldown in half for a while. Picking up someone else's conjure isn't something that's been done seriously for years, and that's due to deliberate balancing decisions by ArenaNet. If conjure sharing can't be allowed to be good, they should bite the bullet and remove it so that conjures can be balanced appropriately for the elementalist.

[Mevelios.4809]

4 hours ago, draxynnic.3719 said:

I've been advocating for conjures to lose the second weapon in exchange for cutting the cooldown in half for a while. Picking up someone else's conjure isn't something that's been done seriously for years, and that's due to deliberate balancing decisions by ArenaNet. If conjure sharing can't be allowed to be good, they should bite the bullet and remove it so that conjures can be balanced appropriately for the elementalist.

Could be a simple solution as well indeed; I tend to prefer a kit-like thingie even with a CD (like holo's forge) merely for ease of access and to oppose the "rigidity" in attunement switching on tempest/weaver, when some weapons such as the hammer can suddenly bring two CCs +one leap finisher on short CD to generate an aura, possibly to interact with related traits & aura share if it could restore interest in such a gameplay. But I'd definitely be fine as well with removing the grounded weapon and halving the CD in return, the very rare occasions on which I see a conjured weapon being picked up is because of using the interaction key when we're trying to get someone back up while on the opposite, sometimes I won't go get the grounded weapon because its location turned into an interdiction zone and/or movement during the fight makes it undesirable.

5 hours ago, soulknight.9620 said:

The thing AliamRationem is refering to is that ele (weaver) does the same amount of dps (or slightly less in some fights) while being cripled by: [shortening quote]. Other specs like reaper dont have this, they have ranged options (staff), selfsustainable quickness uptime (and might too), loads of HP and a "second health bar", a few flex slots to throw in more utility without loosing loads of dps in the process.

To be honest I never managed to enjoy or be interested in any necromancer gameplay, so I know nearly nothing about reaper other than some CCs are built into their dps rotation, resulting in somewhat random results when it's time to land CCs if you disregard the flesh golem. I'm primarily thinking of group play so might/quickness uptime & health shouldn't be an issue, although it is when playing solo; being stuck in the case of power dps with sword is indeed a bit of a pain, however the scepter will get some attention in that regard by the 25th so it's more of a "wait & see" in this case. The utility slots flexibility, though, is indeed an issue for weavers...

5 hours ago, soulknight.9620 said:

Representation is all about "what you bring to the group". If weaver would do 20+% more dps than other specs you would actually see a lot more representation than now. Or if it had more utility like virtuoso for example. Atm the only thing you bring to a team is THE SAME amount of dps (or even lower) that every other spec can bring while having 0 utility and being cripled by the abovemntioned factors. The "hard to play" argument has been cripling every debate on ele forums for years now. A lot of aspects of ele were simplified in past few years. There are even "braindead" button mashing builds that do somewhat decent damage. But people still dont play it. The complexity is not the problem. The "kit" is.

If weaver were performing that well, we'd get nerfed to the ground 🤣 Virtuoso can't really be compared IMO; it's badly over-efficient, and that's coming from the main mesmer I am. I'm not referring to the damages, neither do I mind much distortion & the many CCs available (even if you'd rather keep the signets passive for moar deeps, moar moar - here there's at least a tradeoff for resorting to the active version); what's more troubling is the amount of self-sustain & the ranged all-piercing attacks, the latter from which so many issues derive. We could mention the overall easier gameplay of virtuoso too, but honestly I'm fine with it: it enlarges the pool of players that can play harder content, instead of restricting it only to some sort of self-proclaimed "elite". Everyone gets to have fun the way they want to; if some use that to belittle or shunt out others, that's a player behaviour issue primarily. In our case, we don't reject players for a KO CM if they're playing something other than virtuoso simply because the timer allows it!

To get back to the topic of utilities and link it with the previous quote, what I see as the main difference is the CC access, however again I'm keeping in mind group play. It's indeed a pain on weaver,  I simply sum it up as "hard to play" because I tend to be prolix; it's easy to get sidetracked then get off topic - takes me a while to read myself over and remove several lines, even then the result isn't always there! 😉 I'm definitely not advocating for making weaver easier; the opposite, I play it because I enjoy its complexity that keeps me focused on a single screen minding everything happening there, instead of watching a movie on the side. However so far, comparisons have been made with characters relying on much shorter bursts over time than weaver's lengthy weave self; as indeed fewer fights encourage going melee or even allow a sustained dps, I'd locate the issue around that very elite skill when it takes a while to learn how to play an out-of-stance weaver, then the weave self version, then finding the confidence to adapt when something goes wrong with boons!

To try to clarify and keep it within this single paragraph, IMO the expectation around the weave self loop contradicts the way several fights take place, and that's where weaver's current lack of performance beyond golem testing is found. I won't argue about self-boons when going solo; they're indeed ridiculous against many competitors. But for harder PvE group content which I play the most, the lengthy weave self loop slightly under 30s which you literally need to achieve to compete with many others is where your burst if found; if the boss phases, it's wasted! If the boss moves a lot, forget melee tools and expect some struggling with pistol+warhorn, which relies on several lasting ground AoEs (Searing salvo, Frozen fusillade, Wildfire, Dust storm)! If there are adds around, single-target ranged skills may get intercepted except for signets or the scepter's fire autoattack! If you use weave self to access your CCs, good job, you're now competing with boondps players for damages! And all of this is expected to be fit into a nearly 30s-long period, during which you can't really afford to miss on boons since it would lower your burst while it takes at best 72s to pull off another - if you can tell the target won't be phasing during the next ~30s. The unexpected rigidity of having all attunements going on a 4s CD at any switch prevents us from accessing otherwise built-in CC skills, which is one of the weak points of weaver; at the same time, some damaging options are disregarded because their attunements produce a drop in damages (looking especially at Natural frenzy since we mentioned sword a lot, capable of hitting like a truck but being disregarded out of a weave self loop)! Hence the result: we pale in comparison to classes that do not resort to a bursting move (or over a much shorter duration), we do not bring much CC, we depend heavily on boons, we compensate as we can with utilities focused only on damages, and that's on a squishy archetype. Nevertheless, don't misunderstand: I like it!

Unlike my mesmer I haven't been playing that character for years - it's something I've wanted since PoF but only decided a few months ago to get around, so I sure won't claim to know it all about the class. All I can say is, from my observations I feel like the ordinary attunement switch of 4s is too long to fluently rotate on elements and find the right skill at the right time to carry my weight in any situation that, literally, catches me "off-stance". For the topic of CCs, I've been integrating Unravel (which is supposed to only help novices learn weaver, so I might actually still be at that level for this very profile 😋) on my power sword+dagger build instead of a damaging utility as I manage to achieve more satisfying results with matching cooldowns, on top of being overall funnier to my taste compared to the air autoattack spam; it has the added value of letting me instantly switch to full air in order to access my CCs. Air/earth on those weapons would be much better for that end, but it's a combination you (at least I) avoid and Unravel prevents it! Now for the topic of survivability, Unravel would let you access with ease any of your dodging skills in an "oh sh*t" moment as well, so I found it to be a decent solution in an emergency.

With at least my impression of the issue being thrown down, the few solutions I could think of all involve working around attunement CDs, which puts in question weave self - thus may drift off too far away from the original concept and its limitations to keep it balanced. TBH I'd love playing constantly under 2s attunement cooldowns, I'm not one to complain about piano play - there are low action per minute builds; I enjoy playing a high APM one, turning weave self exclusively into a source of extra stats during a short duration which takes away a lot of flavor from it (without mentioning the balance work required as there would likely be more skills in use). Another harsher solution could consist in simply removing weave self entirely so most of our performance isn't tied anymore to that ~30s long burst, slightly ramp up overall damages to compensate its removal and reduce again all attunement cooldowns while providing a new elite skill that could find some new use; however it's even more unfeasible than the previous suggestion with even more balance work required on top of the creation of a new elite skill, so I didn't delve much into that. One more solution from other topics I read in this section could involve an F5 Unravel skill, although I'd consider it without the 5-sec long status preventing you from using dual attacks. Or again from other topics, a middle ground from my first suggestion: lowering CDs on a different attunement (encouraging the use of dual attacks) to 2s while the current primary attunement would go on 4s, so some of the best damaging skills from full attunements do not become too easily accessible, thus easing the balance work. Bunch of possibilities!

Edited June 5 by Mevelios.4809