condi mesmer with confusion damage getting more and more out of hand recently

[Kyraios.8954]

Flip confusion the same way they flipped torment. Take x amount of damage for not using a skill in y amount of time. That way they will be rewarded for landing a good cc. Rather than taking 20k damage just for trying to activate/get to your condi cleanse. 

[Axl.8924]

On 6/1/2024 at 6:07 PM, Waffles.5632 said:

Proof none of you even play Mes, nor attempt to learn anything outside your class.

You can't just scream "nerf condi on Mes!" and leave it at that.

Which skills are you referring to? And which parts of those skills feel too much for you?

Instead of coming here to blanket rage on the forums, I suggest going towards the wiki and finding out exactly which skills on Mes are making you feel this way. You might just learn something that will improve your pvp experience.

 

Here, for you all;

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Mesmer

They are frustrated with stacks of confusion, which tells me that whatever skill virtuoso does that stacks confusions by the boatload, that is the one.

[Terrorhuz.4695]

On 6/1/2024 at 9:09 PM, arazoth.7290 said:

0,35 secs cast time on these skills while it stays floating 0,7 seconds in the air before they hit. That's what I meant, you prep ez multipbles at once that at the same time hit and give this spike condi damage big stacks.

Then... dodge? So you prevent both F2 and whatever was stacked from landing?

[arazoth.7290]

12 minutes ago, Terrorhuz.4695 said:

Then... dodge? So you prevent both F2 and whatever was stacked from landing?

maybe I am cc'd by others or I used dodge already for others?

The difference here is compared with others there high damage skills, it can still countered by some way. Once this on you in these too high amount of stacks, it shuts down.

Confusion stacks should be enough in damage that you use press abilties lesser but atm with 4,7k you have to press noting. It's like standing on a cliff, behind you is a bear to kill you or you jump to ur dead, either choice is getting you killed. Against other kind you have atleast some choice to counter it. But in these absurd high amount it becomes too punishing for what it is supposed to accomplish

If a lot of you can complain about some power damage hitting too hard of different classes, so is the same for condition abilities. When the amount of confusion stacks that are applied is too high like currently it becomes a problem too.

 And if you would have read other comments, which you didn't, I am all for compensating it to the other conditions like next patch is an example how it can be done already. I am not like nerf this and that I like it to be weak, compensation should be there and they should know too. Gameplay should be more healthy and not being good by such gimmick

[Terrorhuz.4695]

9 minutes ago, arazoth.7290 said:

maybe I am cc'd by others or I used dodge already for others?

Let me sum up your hypothetical situation real fast: you spent all your cooldowns, then you facetanked a 1.15s telegraph with 20s cd (neither stealth nor quickness will cover that), then you didn't cleanse, then you spammed kitten with confusion, then you died.

Virtuoso has problems, don't get me wrong (distort spam, PLEASE REWORK SIGNET OF ILLUSIONS ALREADY), but just how many times do you think you should be allowed to kitten up before a mesmer can convert that into a kill?

Edited June 3 by Terrorhuz.4695

[arazoth.7290]

40 minutes ago, Terrorhuz.4695 said:

Let me sum up your hypothetical situation real fast: you spent all your cooldowns, then you facetanked a 1.15s telegraph with 20s cd (neither stealth nor quickness will cover that), then you didn't cleanse, then you spammed kitten with confusion, then you died.

Virtuoso has problems, don't get me wrong (distort spam, PLEASE REWORK SIGNET OF ILLUSIONS ALREADY), but just how many times do you think you should be allowed to kitten up before a mesmer can convert that into a kill?

I can sum up more of these situations bc that isn't the only one.

 

But you're here dodging the thing here 4,7k damage on confusion stacks isn't healthy anymore.

I remember few months ago seeing 3k max and now suddenly I see more using this and reachinv 4,7k. the mechanic behind how confusion condi works becomes too much.

It shuts down then instead of slowing playstyle down like it should work when it's lower. Atm too many stacks can be applied at once. And you keep dodging this like some others here too. If some power damage skill already hits too much it gets nerfed too.

The difference now is these high power damage skills have more counterplay then this. Because I will say it again and again if must so it gets through, at too high amount of stacks to reach that amount it shuts down instead if slowing playstylee down. This mechanic becomes too toxic then and lot harder to counter once applied.

 

[Terrorhuz.4695]

32 minutes ago, arazoth.7290 said:

It shuts down then instead of slowing playstyle down like it should work when it's lower.

I'm not applying 20 stacks of any condition to "lower your apm", there's dazes for that.
I'm applying 20 stacks of a condition because I want you to die right kittening now.

It's the one and only kill condition on condi virtuoso; you facetank F2, then panic and start killing yourself pressing 16 buttons. If you can't deal with one death condition once every 20s, with the proper telegraph, it is entirely your problem. If even spamming kitten with 20 stacks of confusion doesn't kill you, what are we left with? Is there even a way for you to die?

Edited June 3 by Terrorhuz.4695

[arazoth.7290]

12 minutes ago, Terrorhuz.4695 said:

I'm not applying 20 stacks of any condition to "lower your apm", there's dazes for that.
I'm applying 20 stacks of a condition because I'm sending you back to spawn

It's the one and only kill condition on condi virtuoso, if you can't deal with one death condition once every 20s, with the proper telegraph, it is entirely your problem. If even spamming kitten with 20 stacks of confusion doesn't kill you, what are we left with? Is there even a way for you to die?

Glad you said it yourself that it is carried by a gimmick with too much damage now.

That's why I also said to compensate it with same time some more buffs to these others conditions if they nerf the amount of confusion stacks can be applied.

Confusion condi if triggered does quite some damage compared to the others. When I tried relic of akeem that applies 5 stacks, it did already 1 k.

And I have seen mesmers after that burst, apply regularly stacks of 10 that stays on the enemy. This is already some good amount of sustained damage like 2k on average. and meanwhile you still have other conditions ticking for more sustain. So you saying that besides that you have noting is little weird

 

Overall lower the amount of if confusion stacks that can be applied on mesmer and compensate it with the other damaging conditions little bit. It will be less gimmick toxic playstyle then, simple.

 

 

[Terrorhuz.4695]

5 minutes ago, arazoth.7290 said:

Stuff

I can't figure out why an entire spec should be reworked for your inability to cope with one skill. L2P, it's easier.

Edited June 3 by Terrorhuz.4695

[Sahne.6950]

meh.....  As much as i hate everything about virtuoso.... the Confu burst is not the problem.   Its not instant.... infact its crazy telegraphed.  And you absolutely need to be out of Endurance to get hit by it...   And even if you get hit by it....Just dont press anything.   You will melt yourself, trying to access your cleanse (atleast on ele). But waiting it out and then healing right after, usually does the trick.

IMO the main problem is the ridicilous ammount of sustain virtuosos get out of -> Signet of illusions <- !

Edited June 3 by Sahne.6950

[Terrorhuz.4695]

12 minutes ago, Sahne.6950 said:

someone with the most basic understanding of the game reading the flow of combat instead of shitposting

thank god

[arazoth.7290]

41 minutes ago, Terrorhuz.4695 said:

I can't figure out why an entire spec should be reworked for your inability to cope with one skill. L2P, it's easier.

It's more then 1 skill mate. You get confusion from lot of other sources aswell. Otherwise this all wouldn't be possible what I summed up. 

 

[Sahne.6950]

30 minutes ago, arazoth.7290 said:

It's more then 1 skill mate. You get confusion from lot of other sources aswell. Otherwise this all wouldn't be possible what I summed up. 

 

uhm.. i could be totally wrong, cuz i avoid mesmer like a plague...   But They have exactly 2 things that apply confu....

Bladesong sorrow, and the Sceptre 3 Confusing images.... you know... that beam....   But thats about it.

----->   Evade big flashy daggers yeeting your way.....  block the beam.   <-----    Outside of that... virtuoso has VERY VERY little damage.

Or am i missing something?

Edited June 3 by Sahne.6950

[Terrorhuz.4695]

2 hours ago, arazoth.7290 said:

It's more then 1 skill mate. You get confusion from lot of other sources aswell. Otherwise this all wouldn't be possible what I summed up. 

Listing all the confusion sources on mesmer

- f2, 5 stacks of confusion with full blades, can be buffed to up to 20 stacks if running dueling\illusions < THIS IS THE BIG ONE, AND IS EXTREMELY TELEGRAPHED
- scepter 3, 2.25s channel, 7 stacks < THIS IS BIG TOO, BUT IT ALSO HAS 2.25s CHANNEL TIME
- Staff AA, second bounce, 1 stack
- Staff4, 3 stacks PBAoE on cast
- Pistol5, 3 stacks
- Axe 3, 3 stacks (more if the mesmer has blades)
- Torch5, the super telegraphed phantasm you can walk out of will deal 3 stacks
IF YOU RUN DUELING
Interrupts and blinds will inflict confusion with the GM trait. This adds
- 2 stacks on every CC that interrupts (so it can be procced by f3, pistol5, mantra of distraction, torch5, staff5)
- 2 stacks on signet of midnight, torch4, staff4, F2 (dueling has a trait to make it blind) < this is how you reach your 20 stacks
We're talking about a GM trait dealing 2 stacks of confusion for 2s; it's not the end of the world.

I think that's all, without counting combo finishers because they're harder to proc (mesmer -as a class- can't really rely on combo finishers and there's reasons for that).
It's not a small amount of confusion, but most of what happens is in the realm of 3 stacks and you can't use all of them together (staff\torch\pistol exclude each other, you don't have 3 weaponsets; the 20 stacks build prevents you from running staff too, and all the tanky bs from chaos as a whole).

The bulk of what matters happens with f2, scepter3, and pistol5 with dueling; all stuff you should dodge regardless of the build. Everything else is padding.

Edited June 3 by Terrorhuz.4695

[Waffles.5632]

33 minutes ago, Sahne.6950 said:

Or am i missing something?

They just want to complain. I mean 3 pages and they still don't even know what skills are hitting them to cause so much confusion. These aren't the actions of someone wanting to get better and learn, rather the actions of someone who wants others dragged down to their level. The proof is in the posts.

It's literally a case of  "I don't understand what's going on! NERF IT!!!!"

Edited June 3 by Waffles.5632

[arazoth.7290]

25 minutes ago, Waffles.5632 said:

They just want to complain. I mean 3 pages and they still don't even know what skills are hitting them to cause so much confusion. These aren't the actions of someone wanting to get better and learn, rather the actions of someone who wants others dragged down to their level. The proof is in the posts.

It's literally a case of  "I don't understand what's going on! NERF IT!!!!"

 

58 minutes ago, Terrorhuz.4695 said:

Listing all the confusion sources on mesmer

- f2, up to 20 stacks when running illusions\dueling < THIS IS THE BIG ONE, AND IS EXTREMELY TELEGRAPHED
- scepter 3, 2.25s channel, 7 stacks < THIS IS BIG TOO, BUT IT ALSO HAS 2.25s CHANNEL TIME
- Staff AA, second bounce, 1 stack
- Staff4, 3 stacks PBAoE on cast
- Pistol5, 3 stacks
- Axe 3, 3 stacks (more if the mesmer has blades)
- Torch5, the super telegraphed phantasm you can walk out of will deal 3 stacks
IF YOU RUN DUELING
Interrupts and blinds will inflict confusion with the GM trait. This adds
- 2 stacks on every CC that interrupts (so it can be procced by f3, pistol5, mantra of distraction, torch5, staff5)
- 2 stacks on signet of midnight, torch4, staff4
We're talking about a GM trait dealing 2 stacks of confusion for 2s; it's not the end of the world.

I think that's all, without counting combo finishers because they're harder to proc (mesmer doesn't have these many fields to combo with anyway).
It's not a small amount of confusion, but most of what happens is in the realm of 3 stacks and you can't use all of them together (staff\torch\pistol exclude each other, you don't have 3 weaponsets).

The bulk of what matters happens with f2, scepter3, and pistol5 with dueling; all stuff you should dodge regardless of the build. Everything else is padding.

 

59 minutes ago, Sahne.6950 said:

uhm.. i could be totally wrong, cuz i avoid mesmer like a plague...   But They have exactly 2 things that apply confu....

Bladesong sorrow, and the Sceptre 3 Confusing images.... you know... that beam....   But thats about it.

----->   Evade big flashy daggers yeeting your way.....  block the beam.   <-----    Outside of that... virtuoso has VERY VERY little damage.

Or am i missing something?

I am saying what I see on my condi bar how much it keeps getting and that's still this. So somehow it adds up like that many times like I said. 

Since 2 of you seem to play mesmer and 1 mains it that I know of, you seem to not paying attention that this apparantly happens.

It may be short duration yes, but if applied fast enough after each other, they stack up enough till these amounts.

Imagine thinking 4,7k condition damage on confusion is healthy for the game lmfao. And you can't compare to normal condition ticks at that amount. Because that's not how confusion mechanically works, you know that too

 

 

[Waffles.5632]

I love how you quote the effort others put into educating you, ty for proving my point. 😂

[Terrorhuz.4695]

1 minute ago, arazoth.7290 said:

And you can't compare to normal condition ticks at that amount. Because that's not how confusion mechanically works, you know that too

Yeah, they are better because you don't get to basically ignore them -unlike what happens with confusion-. If you get hit by a burning burst on guardian, or a purple beam of death from specter, or a sb machinegun from soulbeast... kitten, even a condi burst from a core thief. You can't just "stop casting". You cleanse or you die. Confusion even offers you a free out of jail card if you just stop pressing your buttons, you need to kitten up TWICE before it matters

[Waffles.5632]

1 minute ago, Terrorhuz.4695 said:

Yeah, they are better because you don't get to basically ignore them -unlike what happens with confusion-. If you get hit by a burning burst on guardian, or a purple beam of death from specter, or a sb machinegun from soulbeast... kitten, even a condi burst from a core thief. You can't just "stop casting". You cleanse or you die. Confusion even offers you a free out of jail card if you just stop pressing your buttons, you need to kitten up TWICE before it matters

You don't understand, he wants to be able to mess up infinitely, face tank, and still win. That is the point of this thread.

Even if an entire enemy team gangs up on him, he thinks he should be able to survive that via face tanking. Everyone but him should only be doing 1 damage only. Then the game would be perfectly balanced.

Edited June 3 by Waffles.5632

[arazoth.7290]

14 minutes ago, Waffles.5632 said:

I love how you quote the effort others put into educating you, ty for proving my point. 😂

Ty for missing what I wrote and seeing how "healthy" this is atm, proves my point how people are defending something broken on mesmer 😂

[Terrorhuz.4695]

8 minutes ago, arazoth.7290 said:

Ty for missing what I wrote and seeing how "healthy" this is atm, proves my point how people are defending something broken on mesmer 😂

No, that's the thing. What you're pointing at is NOT the broken things. Those are actually the most counterplayable and fair aspects of virtuoso, a strong skill always showing a proper telegraph.
The unfair mechanics you can't counter are the actual problem. Talking about the endless defensive spam with shield 4 => sword 2 => shield 4 => distortion => signet of the ether => signet of illusions => blade renewal => distortion => sword2 => shield4 => dodge => shield4 => mass invis

Edited June 3 by Terrorhuz.4695

[arazoth.7290]

15 minutes ago, Waffles.5632 said:

You don't understand, he wants to be able to mess up infinitely, face tank, and still win. That is the point of this thread.

Even if an entire enemy team gangs up on him, he thinks he should be able to survive that via face tanking. Everyone but him should only be doing 1 damage only. Then the game would be perfectly balanced.

If you read what I also said, recompensating for the damage lose in the other conditions, the ones where it easier to balance in non toxic. So if you read in many other posts here, I am 100% for making condi still work on it if they would do that.

So little bit of reading and not misinterpreting what I said would be nice

[arazoth.7290]

Just now, Terrorhuz.4695 said:

No, that's the thing. What you're pointing at is NOT the broken things. Those are actually the most counterplayable and fair things; the ones you can't counter are the actual problem. Talking about the endless defensive spam with shield 4 => sword 2 => shield 4 => distortion => signet of the ether => signet of illusions => distortion => blade renewal => sword2 => shield4 => mass invis

The way confusion mechanic works is fine untill a certain amount of stacks is reached for the damage in pvp. It shuts down the player instead of slowing down the amount of abilties you press while getting damage.

 

I am not talking about the defensive side here currently, you may make your own thread about that specifically if you like. 

 

[Vinny.7260]

I'm curious on what all the sources of Confusion are.

Could you list them off to us @arazoth.7290?

I do know the F2 for Mesmer is the Confusion button. But what are the other sources?

 

Can you list off all these confusion sources we have? I just wanna know what I'm looking at.

[Sahne.6950]

46 minutes ago, arazoth.7290 said:

The way confusion mechanic works is fine untill a certain amount of stacks is reached for the damage in pvp. It shuts down the player instead of slowing down the amount of abilties you press while getting damage.

 

I am not talking about the defensive side here currently, you may make your own thread about that specifically if you like. 

 

Read closely^^

What Terrorhuz is trying to tell you is, that the confu burst is good damage, but at the same time its very highly telegraphed and thus leaves good room to counter it.

The thing you cant counter is, that virtuoso can reset the phantasm skills with Signet of illusion. This lets them have crazy staying power, by simply chaining evadeframes and block, thus getting off the burst a lot of times with VERY little risk.

At some point you cant keep up with your dodgerolls, and will inevitably eat a burst and THEN you instantly explode.  When you die, it happens almost instantly. I know what you are talking about.  But you dont die on the first burst attempts.  

You loose the attrition fight, cant dodge the burst, AND THEN YOU EXPLODE.

Take away the staying power, aka nerfing signet of illusions, and the burst is alot more justified. Cuz there is actual risk when you interact with your opponent.... right now.... you just chain evades and wait for the next burst.  Which is PEAK uninteractive gameplay.  And nerfing the burst wont change this one bit.

I hope that makes it a bit clearer.

 

Virt isnt overloaded with dmg...  Its completly overloaded with defenses.... and has always been.

if you REEEEALLY think about it.... The dmg isnt the problem! Its the nonstop chaining of defenses, that lets them get off this dmg a bajillion times.

Edited June 3 by Sahne.6950