Ranger Spear Description

[Fenris.8563]

On 6/8/2024 at 12:54 AM, draxynnic.3719 said:

Rangers aren't wizards, but some rangers absolutely are druids, shamans, and other practitioners of nature magic. The precedent has been set there.

The desire for non-projectile range is mostly driven by WvW concerns. WvW tends to have a lot of projectile hate, but closing to melee is also often problematic due to how much incoming damage you can suddenly end up taking from doing so outside of a planned and well-supported push. Ranger tends not to do well in zergfights due to lacking a good option to use during phases of the battle where the two sides are still throwing ranged attacks at each other.

Staff is already a pretty strong precedent, and something that's similar to staff but is balanced more as an offensive weapon would help out in WvW. 

Right but we already have druid and you can use a staff.  

 

With that being said, WvW issues can be addressed differently.  We don't need a "non projectile ranged weapon" for WvW.  Just need more balance, which can be done in many ways.  

With that being said, I was kind of hoping for at least 1 ranged attack similar to Diablo 2 where the Amazon throws a bolt of lightning as the spear throw lol.   That would have been cool.  (...still could be...)

[Fenris.8563]

8 hours ago, Lazze.9870 said:

Smokescale is needed to maximise stealth which this weapon clearly benefits from.

Like, seriously? What's more likely? That I allude to maximising weapon performance, or that I think smokescale is literally needed for the weapon to function at all?

Think for a moment before you reply to someone.

 

Again this makes no sense.  They literally provide you with the stealth you need WITH a weapon skill lmao.   "Think for a moment before you reply to someone"

Maybe take your own advice.  You have no idea how this is even going to work yet.  None of us do.  It is very possible that having the smokescale stealth could help benefit.  Sure.  It's also possible that it CAN NOT do that, as you may specifically need to use the stealth skill equipped w/ the spear for the spear to function in this way.   It also is possible that technically you could use the stealth spear skills with the smokescale stealth, BUT it could be redundant to have because you probably get cool downs on those abilities that will align with the stealth of the weapon skill of the spear.  

So, calm down.  No need to get all aggressive telling people to think when I clearly have thought plenty here.  Until we know exactly how this works, the recast times on everything, etc. we don't know that we will NEED a smokescale for it to fuction at a high level.

Right now every indication is it will do that on it's own. 

[frazazel.7501]

I think they said that the flipover skills will share cooldowns with the skills that they replace, not with the other stealth-enabled flipover skills. So more access to stealth sure sounds like it will just allow us to hit more of those flipover skills.

And technically, one of the flipover skills is the one that provides stealth. How are we supposed to activate that one at all, if we don't bring an additional source of stealth?

[Trejgon.9367]

4 minutes ago, frazazel.7501 said:

I think they said that the flipover skills will share cooldowns with the skills that they replace, not with the other stealth-enabled flipover skills. So more access to stealth sure sounds like it will just allow us to hit more of those flipover skills.

And technically, one of the flipover skills is the one that provides stealth. How are we supposed to activate that one at all, if we don't bring an additional source of stealth?

Yes technically more sources of stealth means more chances to use ambush skills, but using ambush skill applies revealed, so I am unsure about feasibility of not using normal 2-4 skills at all during these revealed periods.

[Levetty.1279]

On 6/7/2024 at 7:12 PM, Fenris.8563 said:

What kind of ranged attack for a Ranger would not be projectile based?

Literally anything they want, it is a game.

[frazazel.7501]

6 minutes ago, Trejgon.9367 said:

Yes technically more sources of stealth means more chances to use ambush skills, but using ambush skill applies revealed, so I am unsure about feasibility of not using normal 2-4 skills at all during these revealed periods.

That's a good point. But so long as the revealed duration is considerably shorter than the cooldown of the weapon skill that provides stealth, there will be opportunity to find a rotation that allows additional skills to benefit from additional sources of stealth.

[Levetty.1279]

1 hour ago, Fenris.8563 said:

Would make no sense for it to be used as a "ranged magic" weapon since that just doesn't make any sense to begin with on top of the fact we have the staff already.

They've already said some classes are going to use Spear as a ranged magic weapon.

[Beddo.1907]

2 hours ago, Fenris.8563 said:

I meant for Spear specifically lol We're talking about the Spear weapon being used as a projectile. 

Would make no sense for it to be used as a "ranged magic" weapon since that just doesn't make any sense to begin with on top of the fact we have the staff already.

I thought it was overall options for non projectile range, my bad.

We could argue that throwing the spear up to fall at enemies would work, but that's a stretch.

[draxynnic.3719]

7 hours ago, Fenris.8563 said:

Right but we already have druid and you can use a staff.  

 

With that being said, WvW issues can be addressed differently.  We don't need a "non projectile ranged weapon" for WvW.  Just need more balance, which can be done in many ways.  

With that being said, I was kind of hoping for at least 1 ranged attack similar to Diablo 2 where the Amazon throws a bolt of lightning as the spear throw lol.   That would have been cool.  (...still could be...)

Staff is balanced as a healing weapon. While a projectile-less ranged weapons would need to have downsides compared to one with projectiles, I think there's space for something with a bit more damage. And, more generally, to fit the nature magic theme without being pigeonholed into support.

I don't think it would be practical to balance around the problem in other ways in WvW - you'd need to pretty much nerf the area projectile hate skills into uselessness.

I suspect the lightning javazon theme is going to go onto elementalist instead. It'd be nice for elementalist to get a ranged lightning* weapon that actually feels like you're throwing lightning around.

*When in air attunement, naturally, although it also does carry an assumption that the weapon as a whole is power-based.

[Ehecatl.9172]

Conceptualizing ranged non-projectile attacks for Ranger is extremely easy. The core class has an entire trait line called Nature Magic and all three elite specializations are distinctly magical in nature, unless you visualize your ranger as unhinging their jaw and swallowing their pet whole as a Soulbeast. Just give Ranger access to scepters and let them use it to conjure the power of local nature spirits to aid them in battle. Summoning angry wisps to swarm enemies in an AoE, growing a tangle of thrashing vines beneath the opponent's feet, calling down a beam of concentrated sunlight to smite your foe, and conjuring various animal spirits to lash out at your prey are all options for a ranger to attack using Nature Magic that doesn't step on the Elementalist's toes.

[Isopod.4156]

Lack of ranged aoe is my biggest problem with ranger (well other than the fickle nature of pet ai and my desire to use non meta ones because cute) playing guardian was a power trip with its multiple aoe options. However the stealth skill will probably trip me up forever, just like the longbow stealth. The stealth stops your auto attack and you have to restart it and I auto use it without realizing and then notice I'm no longer attacking. I'm not a pvp player though so my experience with stealth is different.

[draxynnic.3719]

6 hours ago, Ehecatl.9172 said:

Conceptualizing ranged non-projectile attacks for Ranger is extremely easy. The core class has an entire trait line called Nature Magic and all three elite specializations are distinctly magical in nature, unless you visualize your ranger as unhinging their jaw and swallowing their pet whole as a Soulbeast. Just give Ranger access to scepters and let them use it to conjure the power of local nature spirits to aid them in battle. Summoning angry wisps to swarm enemies in an AoE, growing a tangle of thrashing vines beneath the opponent's feet, calling down a beam of concentrated sunlight to smite your foe, and conjuring various animal spirits to lash out at your prey are all options for a ranger to attack using Nature Magic that doesn't step on the Elementalist's toes.

Yeah, sceptre is the easiest way to imagine a ranger projectile-less ranged weapon. Combine with warhorn and you'd probably have a decent WvW set.

[frazazel.7501]

I'm a little bit worried that ranger spear is going to be a sPvP / WvW roaming weapon, and that it won't have much application in PvE. I also feel like it's going to fill the same niche as Greatsword with a more packed kit.

How do you guys think this weapon is going to fit into the existing builds?

[Beddo.1907]

2 hours ago, frazazel.7501 said:

I'm a little bit worried that ranger spear is going to be a sPvP / WvW roaming weapon, and that it won't have much application in PvE. I also feel like it's going to fill the same niche as Greatsword with a more packed kit.

How do you guys think this weapon is going to fit into the existing builds?

Stealth mechanic implies it's PvP/WvW weapon. It's probably gonna be usable in PvE but nowhere near Hammer and Axes (but let's be honest, nothing can match hammer in pdps easily).

I'm guessing it's gonna be less defensive greatsword in return for def/offensive flexible utility and hybrid range in terms of use.

[Fenris.8563]

On 6/10/2024 at 5:19 PM, Levetty.1279 said:

They've already said some classes are going to use Spear as a ranged magic weapon.

uh yeah. Not Ranger. And we already have confirmation that this is not the use for a spear for Ranger.

It is a physical melee/Ranged DPS.

[Fenris.8563]

On 6/13/2024 at 8:48 PM, Ehecatl.9172 said:

Conceptualizing ranged non-projectile attacks for Ranger is extremely easy. The core class has an entire trait line called Nature Magic and all three elite specializations are distinctly magical in nature, unless you visualize your ranger as unhinging their jaw and swallowing their pet whole as a Soulbeast. Just give Ranger access to scepters and let them use it to conjure the power of local nature spirits to aid them in battle. Summoning angry wisps to swarm enemies in an AoE, growing a tangle of thrashing vines beneath the opponent's feet, calling down a beam of concentrated sunlight to smite your foe, and conjuring various animal spirits to lash out at your prey are all options for a ranger to attack using Nature Magic that doesn't step on the Elementalist's toes.

There's a lot of "magical" going on in the game in general.  But when you're talking about making all classes have 100% all the capabilities of each other, then the classes turn into a skin (which...I'm NOT opposed to. I am FOR this), meaning every class can just do anything and you pick your class based on style.   But then in this case we are just making Ranger like some of the other classes. Of course the concept can easily be applied. You can do anything you want with video game characters/classes.  But I think they have specific ideas in mind on what they want these classes to be, and it seems as if they give Ranger strength in different areas and don't care to give them what you're saying here.  

[Gotejjeken.1267]

On 6/10/2024 at 4:28 PM, Fenris.8563 said:

You have no idea how this is even going to work yet.  None of us do.  It is very possible that having the smokescale stealth could help benefit.  Sure.  It's also possible that it CAN NOT do that, as you may specifically need to use the stealth skill equipped w/ the spear for the spear to function in this way. 

Just saw this but there is no way not to have Untamed be able to use spear AND combo with the smoke field (while holding the spear) unless they nerf the pet unleashed skills.  I seriously hope they don't do that.  

That said, I don't know how they'd differentiate stealth unless they make the spear mechanic work like Stalk used to.  I don't think they would as Stalk bypassed reveals (the pet could attack in stealth with no reveal), but who knows.  

[Fenris.8563]

41 minutes ago, Gotejjeken.1267 said:

Just saw this but there is no way not to have Untamed be able to use spear AND combo with the smoke field (while holding the spear) unless they nerf the pet unleashed skills.  I seriously hope they don't do that.  

That said, I don't know how they'd differentiate stealth unless they make the spear mechanic work like Stalk used to.  I don't think they would as Stalk bypassed reveals (the pet could attack in stealth with no reveal), but who knows.  

I think the answer is simple.  And while I'm speculating it makes perfect sense IMO. The ranger abilities do not swap over when you are simply in 'stealth'.  They ONLY swap over when you specifically use the spear ability that also grants you stealth. I think this is going to work more of how untamed currently works with swapping the abilities when you're untamed or not.  I forget what the wording is exactly, but I feel like this is how it is going to work.

[Gotejjeken.1267]

2 hours ago, Fenris.8563 said:

I think the answer is simple.  And while I'm speculating it makes perfect sense IMO. The ranger abilities do not swap over when you are simply in 'stealth'.  They ONLY swap over when you specifically use the spear ability that also grants you stealth. I think this is going to work more of how untamed currently works with swapping the abilities when you're untamed or not.  I forget what the wording is exactly, but I feel like this is how it is going to work.

Which is great, but probably broken in competitive anyway.  As can just blast the stealth field to reposition or something, then use spear stealth to get a stealth attack.  People hate chaining stealth (i.e. thieves) so wouldn't be surprised if that tracks to ranger spear.

I mean either way I don't mind.  

[Fenris.8563]

9 minutes ago, Gotejjeken.1267 said:

Which is great, but probably broken in competitive anyway.  As can just blast the stealth field to reposition or something, then use spear stealth to get a stealth attack.  People hate chaining stealth (i.e. thieves) so wouldn't be surprised if that tracks to ranger spear.

I mean either way I don't mind.  

Yeah but would it really be that bad?  Seems like Thieves can basically just be stealth the majority of the time (I don't play it myself).  Whereas,  a Rangers stealth is so limited.  You have to use an ability and THEN use an ability to gain stealth through a smokescale and that only lasts a few seconds.  Then you HAVE to land a projectile shot to get it for just a few seconds with a bow if you use a long bow.

And at the end of the day people will complain about anything.  Honestly I feel Ranger gets shafted a lot in PVP in general.  Quite a few of our abilities buff, but at a cost, meaning we 'sacrifice' something in return (vulnerability for example), whereas other jobs have abilities where they just get a bunch of buffs out of 1 ability with no sacrifice.  Maybe I'm biased because I love playing Untamed Ranger, but at this point I'll welcome a little bit of OP in my favor lol.  I don't need it, and I prefer balance.  But, maybe if it is that strong it'll make us more balanced in general.  IDK either way I'm excited for this.  I'd rather it be OP than suck.  

[Gotejjeken.1267]

1 hour ago, Fenris.8563 said:

. I'd rather it be OP than suck.  

Meee too

[Lazze.9870]

On 6/10/2024 at 10:20 PM, Fenris.8563 said:

Right but we already have druid and you can use a staff.  

 

With that being said, WvW issues can be addressed differently.  We don't need a "non projectile ranged weapon" for WvW.  Just need more balance, which can be done in many ways.  

With that being said, I was kind of hoping for at least 1 ranged attack similar to Diablo 2 where the Amazon throws a bolt of lightning as the spear throw lol.   That would have been cool.  (...still could be...)

Yeah. If you're playing support you can play druid and staff. It took Anet a while to bump druid up a notch to be able to perform that role on par with other specs, but it's there.

But no, it can't be adressed differently. There has been a few constants in WvW ever since launch, and one of them is that pure projectile damage will never be good. But for some reason, people like you are hung up on solving it in a different matter.

[Lazze.9870]

On 6/10/2024 at 10:28 PM, Fenris.8563 said:

 

Again this makes no sense.  They literally provide you with the stealth you need WITH a weapon skill lmao.   "Think for a moment before you reply to someone"

Maybe take your own advice.  You have no idea how this is even going to work yet.  None of us do.  It is very possible that having the smokescale stealth could help benefit.  Sure.  It's also possible that it CAN NOT do that, as you may specifically need to use the stealth skill equipped w/ the spear for the spear to function in this way.   It also is possible that technically you could use the stealth spear skills with the smokescale stealth, BUT it could be redundant to have because you probably get cool downs on those abilities that will align with the stealth of the weapon skill of the spear.  

So, calm down.  No need to get all aggressive telling people to think when I clearly have thought plenty here.  Until we know exactly how this works, the recast times on everything, etc. we don't know that we will NEED a smokescale for it to fuction at a high level.

Right now every indication is it will do that on it's own. 

It makes no sense that leaping/blasting the smoke field from the smokescale before swapping to spear which immediately gives you the option to use a stealth attack without spending your spear stealth CD skill is a way of maximising the effectiveness of a weapon that is designed around stealth attacks? Really? It makes no sense to you?

Yeah. No. I said what I said. You're entire argument hinges on this being some kind of special stealth. Because, like I said, I NEVER claimed that it needs the smokescale to function (of course is kittening doesn't). I said it is probably a must, eluding to maxmising the efficency of the weapon. You're somehow getting this ridiculous idea that I think the spear doesn't come with its own source of stealth.

That's why I'm asking you to kittening think for a second.

This is a pvp/wvw perspective btw. That should have been obvious, but even the most obvious thing can't be taken granted on these forums, soo.. In PvE they will just adjust numbers in a way so you don't have to use stealth fields to maximise dps. They're not gonna ask PvE players to use the smokescale. Just imagine the uproar.

But fine. It doesn't make any sense to you that ranger needs non-projectile weapons, and it doesn't make any sense to you that smokescale is likely "needed" to maxmimise the effectiveness of spear itself. Heh. lmao right back at you, bud.

Edit 1 week later: after the spear preview the fact that they just changed the Stalk skill on Jaguar to give the ranger stealth as well I will consider this a "told you so". The spear definetely benefit from addition stealth sources.

Edited Wednesday at 09:26 AM by Lazze.9870

[Levetty.1279]

On 6/17/2024 at 10:33 PM, Fenris.8563 said:

uh yeah. Not Ranger. And we already have confirmation that this is not the use for a spear for Ranger.

It is a physical melee/Ranged DPS.

Thanks Captain Obvious.

[Bastrii.3047]

What Ranger actually needs is a Condi 2h with a Block and Movement potential, so we have parity with Power Greatsword. If Spear has Stealth and Stealth Attacks, it might have a block on its 4 or 5 key. But this is a big "maybe", and the blog never mentioned a block added to our toolkit.