Janthir Wilds - skyscales zergs will kill the immersion

[kharmin.7683]

25 minutes ago, LichOverlord.6329 said:

I don't think that's a good idea 

I'd rather them just have snipers set up like in HoT/PoF, forcing you to be creative, and maybe roaming storms with a unique mechanic like the brandstorm in vabbi

If they want to ground us, make it skill-based or something interesting that requires creative flying to avoid, not just a debuff that blocks flight like in jumping puzzles

The snipers, at least, made lore sense.  I'd rather not have anti-aircraft guns set up all over the place just to appease some players who don't like skyscales. 

[LichOverlord.6329]

1 hour ago, kharmin.7683 said:

The snipers, at least, made lore sense.  I'd rather not have anti-aircraft guns set up all over the place just to appease some players who don't like skyscales. 

Oh, of course not!

I just think some well-placed snipers, and maybe a roaming storm or two like we had in Jahai Bluffs would be enough - combine that with more modes of convenient traversal like sand portals, large gaps for raptors, etc.

I think if the devs should be encouraging players to use a variety of mounts, not forcing them to

There should 100% be places where the warclaw is more effective than the skyscale at traversing a map, and in those places players will feel rewarded for having unlocked the mount and trained the mastery and practiced riding with it

But it shouldn't be forced - players should want to use the new Warclaw because they're awesome and they're really great at doing a specific thing, not because they have to use the warclaw

Bad game design is forcing your players into a behavior, good game design is encouraging the behavior in creative ways that feel good to your players

[Therac.6431]

1 hour ago, kharmin.7683 said:

The snipers, at least, made lore sense.  I'd rather not have anti-aircraft guns set up all over the place just to appease some players who don't like skyscales. 

We need a CRAM, an air defense system, defending the game.
Skyscale should be treated  like rockets

 

Edited June 11 by Therac.6431

[Eloc Freidon.5692]

8 hours ago, spooky.9853 said:

Honestly, a Warclaw only PVE map would be cool.

This would be cool to have maps that are specific in their travel, like the JPs in Bjora Marches are.

I thought Cantha would have such dense city structure that it would limit the usefulness of mounts for more personal content.

[Sweetbread.3678]

I wouldn't be surprised if Skyscale use has to be unlocked on new maps at some point. It must be almost impossible to design any sort of interesting pathfinding when the players can just fly over everything. I also won't be surprised when at least half of the game's playerbase loses their minds over it. God forbid their isekai power fantasies are interrupted by something like level design/exploration that occasionally requires basic problem solving skills instead of just holding space bar forever.

[Vayne.8563]

On 6/9/2024 at 6:44 AM, StraightPath.3972 said:

I'm saying that if we're to explore wild new regions they should feel as such not only with looks and sounds, but also by putting extra pressure on the player.
I can already see day 1 first map with 400 players, 300 of which are skyscale mounted plowing through everything, possibly even without dismounting their skyscale - just throwing fireball.

I would very much like to see cohesion between trailers, lore and gameplay.
If the trailers suggest wild, tough lands that command respect and learning their ways to survive,
I sure don't want to see a full battalion of skyscales plowing through everything 2s into the game..

So play it on day 50 and let us enjoy ourselves. 

[quake.9023]

land only mount would be cool for once haha....cnt believe im saying this

[Vayne.8563]

1 hour ago, quake.9023 said:

land only mount would be cool for once haha....cnt believe im saying this

By my count we already have five land only mounts if you include the Warclaw.  Three flying mounts of you include the turtle. Two underwater mounts if you include the turtle. There are more land only mounts than any other type of mount.

Land only. Raptor, spring, jackal, beetle, warclaw.

Flying Mount: Skyscale, griffon, maybe turtle.

Underwater mount: Skimmer, turtle.

Surface of the water: Skimmer.

Seems like we don't need another land only mount.

 

[Manpag.6421]

33 minutes ago, Vayne.8563 said:

By my count we already have five land only mounts if you include the Warclaw.  Three flying mounts of you include the turtle. Two underwater mounts if you include the turtle. There are more land only mounts than any other type of mount.

Land only. Raptor, spring, jackal, beetle, warclaw.

Flying Mount: Skyscale, griffon, maybe turtle.

Underwater mount: Skimmer, turtle.

Surface of the water: Skimmer.

Seems like we don't need another land only mount.

 

I think what they were implying was not that there is a shortage of land-only mounts, but rather that it'd be nice to have a land-based mount that felt like a similar QoL upgrade to skyscale without actually needing to fly.

The original PoF mounts are all exceptionally well-designed for their respective niches, but because of that, you have to switch mounts to get over different terrains. That's by design, of course, but skyscale shows that people mostly prefer a single mount they can use to navigate most obstacles in open world. In a post-skyscale world, I can agree it would be nice to have a ground mount that still lets players take a fairly straight line from A to B, so that we have a bit more diversity and new players don't feel they have to rush skyscale specifically to keep up with groups.

[Vayne.8563]

23 minutes ago, Manpag.6421 said:

I think what they were implying was not that there is a shortage of land-only mounts, but rather that it'd be nice to have a land-based mount that felt like a similar QoL upgrade to skyscale without actually needing to fly.

The original PoF mounts are all exceptionally well-designed for their respective niches, but because of that, you have to switch mounts to get over different terrains. That's by design, of course, but skyscale shows that people mostly prefer a single mount they can use to navigate most obstacles in open world. In a post-skyscale world, I can agree it would be nice to have a ground mount that still lets players take a fairly straight line from A to B, so that we have a bit more diversity and new players don't feel they have to rush skyscale specifically to keep up with groups.

WE're supposed to be getting a jackal masetry I thought and warclaw is getting something too.

Edit: I may have imagined the jackal part. lol

 

Edited June 12 by Vayne.8563

[Quench.7091]

I do think it's a problem that the more basic mounts aren't competing against the skyscales. The other mounts are a ton more exciting and fast paced, albeit underpowered in many cases. Skyscales are supposed to be the slow and steady option, not the go-to mount for nearly every situation except for roller beetle favored cases. Kind of wish that the springer, jackal, and raptor could perform even faster and more powerfully to make up for the difference in the ease of movement that the skyscale provides.

[Gehenna.3625]

21 hours ago, LichOverlord.6329 said:

I've long entertained the notion that skyscales were a mistake, and that griffon should have been the only "flying" mount, as it requires you to be really smart with where you launch from and requires skill to get around, and doesn't nullify any of the ground mounts

That's a plus for some and a minus for others. The fact that it requires skill is something that not everybody is interested in. But it does nullify ground mounts a lot still because you can gain a lot of ground moving very quickly. So as soon as there's a height somewhere that's easily reached with jumping mushrooms for example. And that's the case in Dragon's Fall and Drizzlewood forest where, if you use ground mounts you'll miss all of the bonus bosses. Even with a skyscale youreally have to bolt and be lucky to keep up with the griffons.

[Manpag.6421]

8 hours ago, Vayne.8563 said:

WE're supposed to be getting a jackal masetry I thought and warclaw is getting something too.

Edit: I may have imagined the jackal part. lol

I haven't heard anything about a new jackal mastery, but I wouldn't rule it out. I think it's more likely that a warclaw mastery (or masteries) get shared with other mounts, though. 

8 hours ago, Gehenna.3625 said:

That's a plus for some and a minus for others. The fact that it requires skill is something that not everybody is interested in.

I agree that a high skill ceiling can intimidate people, but in my experience, high skill mounts also have much deeper, more interesting mechanics. Skyscale is the most popular mount in the game, and people like the aesthetic, but I've never come across a skyscale guild like Wing, RACE, or TAXI. It's pure utility, rather than something people will ride for hours just for fun. I suppose the ideal is for something to have a low enough skill floor to feel accessible and convenient, while still having a high enough skill ceiling to reward practice.

I'm really eager to see what they do with warclaw, and whether it's just new masteries or an actual rework of its core mechanics. 

[DeathPanel.8362]

On 6/8/2024 at 11:30 AM, StraightPath.3972 said:

9.06.2024 - Changed title and streamlined the content of first post to make it less clickbaity and more to the point

Janthir Wilds trailer promises us wild, untamed and dangerous land.
The norse music, the wild scenery, the new enemies and weapon to tackle it's challenges..

Cue elevator music as zergs if not blobs of skyscale mounted players will just roll over the map,
leaving scorched air and smell of dragon farts behind them..

If trailer promises a wild, rugged, untamed and challenging land, then I hope a-net will translate this into gameplay,
with mechanics or/and restrictions preventing just zerging/flying over the content.

The thing about MMOs is that there are other players.  What you're proposing is that other players have to be restricted in their actions to cater to your specific sensibilities.  That's not fair to them and their sensibilities.  It's also not immersive when you have a flying mount and keep flying into invisible walls because the game forces you to go on foot for certain areas.  I understand that for Jumping Puzzles this is a compromise that must be made to maintain integrity of the JP, but for general zone movement, it would damage the immersion far more.

[Mistwraithe.3106]

I would be totally fine with Skyscales, Griffons and the Turtle being unusable in one or all of the Janthir Wilds maps.

It is more fun exploring new maps when you can't fly. Even the Springer trivializes some stuff.

Don't get me wrong - the mounts are great and I love the QoL when I just want to get around and do stuff. But I think doing new content without some of them is in many ways more fun.

A map where you start being unable to use any mount except Warclaw but then unlock all or some of the other mounts at the end of a later mastery track could actually be perfect and provide the best of both worlds. More exciting exploration with more constraints but then more QoL freedom once you're past the exploration stage and are just wanting to get things done.

Edited June 13 by Mistwraithe.3106

[Linken.6345]

I would think after pathfinder in games like wow people would not advocate for smiliar things like it in other games.

Sadly I am wrong about that.

[Mistwraithe.3106]

I had to read up on the Pathfinder WoW mechanic as I hadn't heard of it. I saw people complaining about it but don't know nearly enough to know how it is implemented, how effective it is or overall player opinion of it.

Anyway, I only wrote my opinion. I enjoy exploring on foot more than when flying. In fact I'm prepared to go further and say that this isn't just my opinion, exploring by flying is a completely different and, for most people, a weaker experience than doing it on foot. I've seen this in multiple games.

But I know there will be people who think otherwise because people are diverse. There are GW2 players who would rather there wasn't a story at all, which blows my mind as I would never have played GW2 if it didn't have one (even tho story, while still important, is not the main thing which keeps me playing now).

There is an Ark Survival map called Aberration where all fliers are disabled except for Cave Drakes which are very hard to obtain (so are mid-late game unless you really know what you are doing), can't fly but glide well and have ways of gaining height which let them get close to flying. I loved that map and think it's the best Ark map I've played because it made it more interesting and challenging. It also makes the achievement of managing to get Cave Drakes really feel like something. But I'm sure there are others who hate that map. C'est la vie.

Edited June 13 by Mistwraithe.3106

[Sweetbread.3678]

2 minutes ago, Mistwraithe.3106 said:

I had to read up on the Pathfinder WoW mechanic as I hadn't heard of it. I saw people complaining about it but don't know nearly enough to know how it is implemented, how effective it is or overall player opinion of it.

Basically they let people fly from the start during the Cataclysm expansion and it made for incredibly boring zones where everything was just quest objectives with miles of unused dead space between them, and nobody ever interacted with the world or even really saw one another besides when they air dropped in, killed a quest mob/picked up a magic pinecone, and then immediately took flight again. Like imagine GW2 having to design all of their zones around players having a Skyscale that doesn't even have altitude decay and goes Gryphon speed, and you'll get the picture. Their solution was to make meta achievements for the open world where you had to more-or-less finish/explore the zones on the ground before you could unlock flying on that continent. Suddenly they could design zones with secrets and nooks and crannies to find, unlocking flightpaths and shortcuts mattered, and players would actually encounter each other out in the wild! Most of the time the achieves weren't ever that hard to complete, so it seemed like a perfect compromise. Naturally, gamers being gamers, a bunch of morons had a total meltdown over the fact that they couldn't ignore 99% of the game anymore by just infinitely swimming through the air at 800 mph. 

[Zok.4956]

10 hours ago, DeathPanel.8362 said:

The thing about MMOs is that there are other players.  What you're proposing is that other players have to be restricted in their actions to cater to your specific sensibilities.  That's not fair to them and their sensibilities.

It is not a question of fair or unfair. Players simply have different opinions about what would be good for the game and what they like in the game. Every opinion is legitimate.

Every game mechanic restricts players in some way.  Otherwise we would all play in "god mode" and it would be totally boring and there would be no progression.

I also think that in order to make Warclaw more relevant, other mounts have to be restricted in some way. The trick is to do it in a way that players have fun and don't see it as a step backwards. That's why I'm excited to see if and how Anet will manage this balancing act. 

 

BTW:  Each no-fly/no-mount zone in JPs represents a restriction on players' actions. Because otherwise the content would be trivialized even more.

Edited June 13 by Zok.4956

[Zok.4956]

On 6/12/2024 at 4:07 AM, Eloc Freidon.5692 said:

This would be cool to have maps that are specific in their travel, like the JPs in Bjora Marches are.

I think the Hot/S3 maps (for map travel without mounts) and PoF/S4 maps (for mounts) are a perfect example of this. In this respect, PoF maps represent the best map design that GW2 has (had) for mounts. All mounts in PoF have different functions that you need for different places in PoF. And as you explore the story and the maps, you earn the mounts.

But since the existence of the Skyscale, it's hardly possible to improve mounts and map travel any further. In EoD, the attempt with the Tutle as a two-player war mount didn't work well. It remained a niche mount. That's why they didn't introduce a new mount in SotO (but instead built in a simpler alternative way to get it) and added a few skills. That's why the next attempt is with the Warclaw in JW. Let's see how well that would work.

[Manpag.6421]

2 hours ago, Zok.4956 said:

BTW:  Each no-fly/no-mount zone in JPs represents a restriction on players' actions. Because otherwise the content would be trivialized even more.

The funny thing about those no-fly/no-mount zones is that often they don't completely prevent you using mounts to skip the intended JP (you can find skips for almost all except ones that have some sort of checkpoint system), and yet the process of getting around the prevention measures becomes a puzzle in itself. E.g. back when Weyandt's Revenge was a pretty frequent daily, I enjoyed the challenge of flying to it and using Bond of Faith from just the right height/distance to skip it without landing out of bounds or clipping terrain so that I fell to my death. I don't think the devs necessarily planned you to be able to circumvent the restrictions like that, but it's actually a pretty good way to allow for different approaches to the same content.

As long as potential restrictions are reasonable and not too draconian, we should see more diversity in how players approach the maps.

[Azinoth.1902]

I saw multiple mentions of WoW pathfinder, I've been there when they were content. Here is an example.

Battle for Azeroth Pathfinder, Part One

"Complete the Kul Tiras and Zandalar achievements listed below."

Criteria
- Battle for Azeroth Explorer (obviously it's about exploring all maps of the new xpac)
- Azerothian Diplomat (raise your reputation to revered with all new factions - no GW2 equivalent, but probably the Drizzlewood commendation system is somewhat similar - it was heavily timegated and forced you to play regularly)
- Wide World of Quests (complete 100 unique world quests - it's like complete 100 unique dynamic events - a lot of them wouldn't appear every day, you had snipe for them for many weeks or months)
- War Campaign (complete the main story - they were divided to chapters being added by patches, just like in SoTO, so this part was timegated for several months as well)
- Complete Zone Questlines (complete all side storylines - no GW2 equivalent, but instead it could be the "Inner Nayos Mastery I-II-III etc.)

And when you finally completed all of this (took almost a year iirc), then congratulations, you have unlocked flying, only to realize that it is was an illusion, because you already completed everything in the new zones so now you have nothing to do.
 

[Batalix.2873]

How about we just delete SotO, yes?

[Gehenna.3625]

7 hours ago, Batalix.2873 said:

How about we just delete SotO, yes?

No. As much as I don't care for the content, there are people who like it and I'm not for taking their fun and Obsidian armor away.

[quake.9023]

because of the terrible optimization, my char quality n limit is always at lowest, or else fps goes to kitten. so i cant see more thn 4-5 skyscale.....