Arnox.5128 Posted June 18 Share Posted June 18 (edited) We've been wanting it for years and years ever since launch. WvW is not a replacement for GvG. EotM is far from being enough. ANet, I know you can do the thing! EDIT: By the way, I don't think anyone here on the forums is gonna be excited for GvG or even interested in any additions to sPvP. This is because most people on GW2 now are PvE players. But if you build it, they will come! Edited June 18 by Arnox.5128 5 1 1 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cronospere.8143 Posted June 18 Share Posted June 18 Its funny how you say "we've been wanting" and then "i don't think anyone is interested" to debunk your first statement. Haha 3 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arnox.5128 Posted June 18 Author Share Posted June 18 Just now, Cronospere.8143 said: Its funny how you say "we've been wanting" and then "i don't think anyone is interested" to debunk your first statement. Haha "We" as in the very general PvP community. "Anyone" as in anyone here on the forums as I already said, although I admit that statement is kinda false. I apologize. What I was trying to say with that is that it seems every time someone recommends an sPvP overhaul or GvG, they get shouted down by the community in favor of more PvE stuff or maybe even WvW stuff. As sPvP has languished for such a long time, most of the people who would care about sPvP additions and improvements have left either to just play PvE or leave GW2 entirely for another MMO. 1 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DanAlcedo.3281 Posted June 18 Share Posted June 18 Mhhh I have been fighting other guilds with my guild in Wvw for like 7-8 years. 🤔 3 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arnox.5128 Posted June 18 Author Share Posted June 18 Just now, DanAlcedo.3281 said: Mhhh I have been fighting other guilds with my guild in Wvw for like 7-8 years. 🤔 It's just not the same, both in experience and in raw objectives. If you've played GvG in GW1, then you know how different it is. It's also VERY nice to have actual leaderboard support native in the game, guild rankings, and matchmaking services to set a game up, or maybe even simply an easy way to setup a full GvG game using GW2's individual servers you can buy (I actually don't like how you have to pay for those, but that's another topic for another time.) 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quench.7091 Posted June 18 Share Posted June 18 (edited) They do have a WvW area big enough for GvG, but I do think that they should've probably made GvG more in the form of how the custom PvP matches work. It just seems practical for inviting people from across different match makings. However, I do wonder if Alliances are GvGish enough? ArenaNet might not bother such a feature if they think it will suffice. ArenaNet does drop the ball in PvP game modes a lot. Look at the PvP arenas inside of guild halls for example! For the longest time they balanced them with the PvE skill set by default. If you go to the PvP hub in the game, you'll see everyone using the free-for-all arena as a 1v1 dueling section. There's obviously a demand for things to behave certain ways, yet popularity and demand don't seem to guide the development of these features. Even if GvG were to become the most popluar thing in the world they'd still not lean into it. Edited June 18 by Quench.7091 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DeathPanel.8362 Posted June 18 Share Posted June 18 It would be way too niche to be a viable mode. It's already difficult enough at times to match when you're just randomly trying to queue in, to have to be part of a guild. Presumably, having sufficient numbers of your guild online and actively queuing simultaneously, and then having the other team do the same, means the vast majority of players will never interact with that feature. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
quake.9023 Posted June 18 Share Posted June 18 have wvw for that 2 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arnox.5128 Posted June 18 Author Share Posted June 18 (edited) 12 hours ago, Quench.7091 said: They do have a WvW area big enough for GvG GvG is much more than just team deathmatch. I'm talking about how it was in GW1. 12 hours ago, Quench.7091 said: For the longest time they balanced them with the PvE skill set by default. Yeah, that... Was really not the smartest decision. Honestly, it seems there was a lot of great ideas in Heart of Thorns that just simply had bad implementations, but they never really took the time to go back and fix many of the issues. 7 hours ago, DeathPanel.8362 said: It would be way too niche to be a viable mode. Go tell that to GW1 which is still going (relatively) strong despite being a supposedly niche mode in a VERY old game. 7 hours ago, DeathPanel.8362 said: It's already difficult enough at times to match when you're just randomly trying to queue in, to have to be part of a guild. They can have variable team amounts to make quick matches easier, though the full GvG player requirements should still be a thing for the actual tourneys. 6 hours ago, quake.9023 said: have wvw for that Again, not the same thing at all. WvW will never be a replacement for true GvG. Edited June 18 by Arnox.5128 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dean Calaway.9718 Posted June 18 Share Posted June 18 15 hours ago, Arnox.5128 said: But if you build it, they will come! You mean like the arena in Obsidian Sactum? Or the Guild Halls after that? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arnox.5128 Posted June 18 Author Share Posted June 18 (edited) 22 minutes ago, Dean Calaway.9718 said: You mean like the arena in Obsidian Sactum? No. 22 minutes ago, Dean Calaway.9718 said: Or the Guild Halls after that? Kind of. The Guild Halls were just a piece of what should have been a larger puzzle, but ANet never made the rest of the pieces, so the guild hall could, of course, never synergize with them, and the additions they did make for the guild halls were not that great by themselves if we're being honest. The guild hall arena for example, as just pointed out, has a PvE ruleset in place. This is VERY sub-optimal for literally any PvP play that isn't WvW. Or, hell, maybe even WvW play too somewhat. When people say, "If you build it, they will come," there's also usually an implied part of that saying which reads, "If you build it RIGHT, they will come." EDIT: And for the record, many guilds still do use the Obsidian Sanctum regardless, even if it's extremely poor for actual GvG. Edited June 18 by Arnox.5128 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dean Calaway.9718 Posted June 19 Share Posted June 19 13 hours ago, Arnox.5128 said: "If you build it RIGHT, they will come." There it is, and because no matter what a GvG mode will never attract a crowd, it's never gonna be "done right" so it's an exercise in futility and a waste of money. GW2 PvP has about the lowest barrier of entry of any MMO on the market and how many people play it... ? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DeathPanel.8362 Posted June 19 Share Posted June 19 15 hours ago, Arnox.5128 said: They can have variable team amounts to make quick matches easier, though the full GvG player requirements should still be a thing for the actual tourneys. Having variable team amounts just makes matches unbalanced. As I said, it's already hard enough to queue just for normal pvp matches. Now add on top of that a restriction that everyone on each side must be in the same guild, and you're going to be in the queue forever. Most people don't even have more than 5 players online in their guild nowadays at any one time and most of them are doing their own thing or don't prefer pvp. The math simply doesn't add up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stand The Wall.6987 Posted June 19 Share Posted June 19 pvp amulet system prevents any big team battles from being viable. maybe if we could assign our own attributes with the obvious restrictions to prevent degen stats like dire. as it stands now there is no way to be tanky enough to withstand even a 10v10. maybe if objectives forced ppl to split, but then its not really a 10v10 anymore just 2 5v5s or whatever 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arnox.5128 Posted June 19 Author Share Posted June 19 4 hours ago, Dean Calaway.9718 said: it's never gonna be "done right" so it's an exercise in futility and a waste of money. Yeah, that's what you guys said about mounts too. 4 hours ago, Dean Calaway.9718 said: GW2 PvP has about the lowest barrier of entry of any MMO LOL Have you played this game's PvP? Sure, you can "enter" PvP at any time, but unless you're playing the most beginner of beginner matches, you will be utterly crushed. And hell, you may STILL be crushed in those beginner matches anyway by any player who actually knows how to use metabattle.com even in a basic fashion. GW2 PvP is actually pretty kitten amazing and wonderful, but accessible to noobs, it is not. WvW is a small exception because at least with WvW, a new player can just join a zerg and at least kinda contribute, but that's about it. 2 hours ago, DeathPanel.8362 said: Having variable team amounts just makes matches unbalanced. I didn't mean 10v5... >_> You do 5v5 or the classic 8v8. Teams could be composed of a minimum of two members of the guild, at least one of which is an officer. The remaining players on the team may either be members of that guild, guests from another guild, or alliance members. Tourneys would enforce eight guild members or at least alliance members though. 3 hours ago, DeathPanel.8362 said: Now add on top of that a restriction that everyone on each side must be in the same guild, and you're going to be in the queue forever. Never was a problem for Guild Wars 1. 3 hours ago, DeathPanel.8362 said: Most people don't even have more than 5 players online in their guild nowadays at any one time and most of them are doing their own thing or don't prefer pvp. Most people don't play PvP, or don't play it anymore, PERIOD, because of how much it's stagnated and how overridden with cheaters and bots it is (though that is, again, a separate problem for a separate time). But if ANet actually gave it some love, we could start getting people way more interested in it. There are other small easy things they could implement as well to ease people into it such as making the guild hall arena actually useful with PvP settings instead of PvE, and not leaving noobs entirely at the mercy of anyone who peruses metabattle by showing noobs how to make good builds as well. I don't know. Those are just a few ideas. 2 hours ago, Stand The Wall.6987 said: maybe if we could assign our own attributes with the obvious restrictions to prevent degen stats like dire. as it stands now there is no way to be tanky enough to withstand even a 10v10. I'd be VERY open to customizable stats, though everyone who's bought those other PvP amulets are probably going to get mad when they go away. All that said, proper GvG is 8v8. 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DeathPanel.8362 Posted June 19 Share Posted June 19 7 minutes ago, Arnox.5128 said: I didn't mean 10v5... >_> You do 5v5 or the classic 8v8. Teams could be composed of a minimum of two members of the guild, at least one of which is an officer. The remaining players on the team may either be members of that guild, guests from another guild, or alliance members. Tourneys would enforce eight guild members or at least alliance members though If only 2 people on a side need to be in the same guild it ceases to be GvG. 9 minutes ago, Arnox.5128 said: Never was a problem for Guild Wars 1. GW2 isn't GW1. Different games, different types of player base, different mechanics. 10 minutes ago, Arnox.5128 said: Most people don't play PvP, or don't play it anymore, PERIOD, because of how much it's stagnated and how overridden with cheaters and bots it is And you think it would be better if you added additional restrictions on top of those problems you just listed like forcing each team to be in the same guild? Like I said before, your math doesn't add up. There's simply no demand for what you're talking about. Players who would be amenable to what you're saying are playing other games and not likely to jump back onto a 10+ year-old MMO. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arnox.5128 Posted June 19 Author Share Posted June 19 (edited) 23 minutes ago, DeathPanel.8362 said: If only 2 people on a side need to be in the same guild it ceases to be GvG. Don't know what to tell you. That was how it was in GW1. And apparently it worked. 23 minutes ago, DeathPanel.8362 said: GW2 isn't GW1. Yeah, I think ANet has made that very clear indeed by leaving PvP in the dust in favor of more and more PvE stuff. 23 minutes ago, DeathPanel.8362 said: And you think it would be better if you added additional restrictions on top of those problems you just listed like forcing each team to be in the same guild? For major tourneys, yeah, I do. 23 minutes ago, DeathPanel.8362 said: Like I said before, your math doesn't add up. I don't need math (which, by the way, you actually haven't even shown YOUR math besides just saying, "Players aren't going to do it."). I have historical proof. If GvG was really so kitten bad as you say, then GW1's PvP at least would have been freaking dead. But it still cut through WoW classic and survived. That's NOT a mean feat. It happened because ANet took a chance and made the game that they wanted to play, not because they were chasing trends and going with what was "safe" at the time. They had a product that nobody else had. STILL don't have. So now, here's Guild Wars 2, and after all those years of GW1 PvP being and still being played to this very day, are you really going to sit here and tell me that GUILD Wars 2 can't do guild wars??? Don't be absurd. I feel like I'm back in 2010 talking to some execs in the boardroom about space sims, but the execs are all saying, "Uhhhhhhhhhhhh, there's no market for it." I'm trying to be patient. I really am. But I can't believe I actually have to take this time to argue with people here, of all places, in favor of putting in one of the VERY gamemodes that made the original so famous and beloved. Hell, let's just toss out GvG for a second here. People are STILL playing GW2's PvP even though it's filled with cheaters and bots and hasn't been touched by ANet in YEARS. If PvP is really so unwanted as you say, then why is it still getting the traffic that it does? No players NEED to go into PvP. Besides, I guess, for legendaries, you can get everything you want in PvE. So why are they there? Because they like the scenery? Edited June 19 by Arnox.5128 1 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DeathPanel.8362 Posted June 19 Share Posted June 19 45 minutes ago, Arnox.5128 said: I don't need math (which, by the way, you actually haven't even shown YOUR math besides just saying, "Players aren't going to do it."). I have historical proof. If GvG was really so kitten bad as you say, then GW1's PvP at least would have been freaking dead. But it still cut through WoW classic and survived. That's NOT a mean feat. GW2 players don't play PvP much and that number's going down. Creating a new mode based on a declining game mode that puts further restrictions on entry is not going to make things better. Anyone with a shred of reason would realize it would make things worse. GW1 didn't have open world or WvW, so players had fewer options to engage in. It's a different game, with different mechanics. What you're saying isn't applicable no matter how much wishful thinking you pump into it. Since you keep citing GW1 as the example of how great GvG is, why not just go back to playing GW1? I'm opposed to ANET spending resources and time on creating a DOA game mode that most people won't even interact with. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arnox.5128 Posted June 19 Author Share Posted June 19 (edited) 33 minutes ago, DeathPanel.8362 said: GW2 players don't play PvP much and that number's going down. We've already discussed why that is. Also, who said the number is still going down? Not that it matters considering the very sorry state of sPvP, but what is your proof there? 33 minutes ago, DeathPanel.8362 said: Creating a new mode based on a declining game mode that puts further restrictions on entry is not going to make things better. Admittedly, ANet is probably gonna have to clean up its act first in regards to the PvP portion as well. Namely, cleaning up all the bots and rampant cheating at very least. But this would be true regardless of what the new game mode will be. 33 minutes ago, DeathPanel.8362 said: GW1 didn't have open world wut? Yes, it very much did. Have you even touched GW1? 33 minutes ago, DeathPanel.8362 said: so players had fewer options to engage in. Doesn't matter. GvG is a long-form objective-based game mode with 8v8 instead of the usual 5v5. It's not anything super exotic, even if it is pretty different from the usual sPvP affair. I can't think of any specific mechanics in GW2 that would inhibit this game mode from being successful. In fact, I might even argue that balancing GvG would be HARDER in GW1 due to all the skills in the game plus fully customizable stats. 33 minutes ago, DeathPanel.8362 said: Since you keep citing GW1 as the example of how great GvG is, why not just go back to playing GW1? Because the game is almost 20 years old and not really supported anymore. Most of all though, I simply want to play GvG with GW2 mechanics. And I want to use my pimp-looking Fashion Wars 2 characters. Gotta keep up appearances, you know. Edited June 19 by Arnox.5128 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
phixion.9428 Posted June 19 Share Posted June 19 (edited) If you want braindead blobb spam you can do GvG and WvW. A PvP mode should not be bigger than 5vs5 (maybe 6v6) imo. And i would vote for 1v1 after they had 2v2 and 3v3. Also fits the low population well and also helps the fun when you do not need to colab with toxic wannabes ruling the scene to get something done. Make it have seperate balance in a way that specific things are disabled for 1v1 (do the same for 2v2 at least when you are on it) so it does not become a noobcarry tank fiesta. Disable all amulets with toughness and all defensive core traitlines (death/blood for necro, alc/invent for engi, inspi/chaos for mesmer and so on) for example. Easy to implement that kind of split balance to specific gamemodes/ servers. And a lb as you had for 5v5 solo q during core days. Edited June 19 by phixion.9428 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arnox.5128 Posted June 19 Author Share Posted June 19 (edited) 25 minutes ago, phixion.9428 said: If you want braindead blobb spam Are we on the same page here? Do you guys even know what exactly I'm talking about? 25 minutes ago, phixion.9428 said: A PvP mode should not be bigger than 5vs5 8v8 has been used in MANY, MANY multiplayer games for a very long time. I don't think the addition of *gasp* 3 more players per team is going to turn it into a zerg. 25 minutes ago, phixion.9428 said: And i would vote for 1v1 ... Actually, I'd really like a proper Duel game mode, but still, I'd rather have GvG first. 25 minutes ago, phixion.9428 said: Also fits the low population well There it is again. "There's no market for it." 25 minutes ago, phixion.9428 said: Disable all amulets with toughness and all defensive core traitlines "Screw the hallmark of player choice that's been close to Guild Wars since its inception. We're going to cut out half of the gameplay options and make you play it OUR way." Hey, you know what, let's go even further. Everyone can now only use Berserker stats. And everyone has to play the same class. And use the same weapons. And they get 4 skills. There. Perfectly balanced. Don't complain or we'll cut it down to 2 skills. Edited June 19 by Arnox.5128 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dean Calaway.9718 Posted June 19 Share Posted June 19 2 hours ago, Arnox.5128 said: unless you're playing the most beginner of beginner matches, you will be utterly crushed That's a personal skill issue, not a game issue. You can put a top player in a brand new account and he'll perform at top level immediately, ergo, low barrier of entry. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arnox.5128 Posted June 19 Author Share Posted June 19 (edited) 4 minutes ago, Dean Calaway.9718 said: That's a personal skill issue, not a game issue. And I'd say this is semantics. But you are right in that GW2's PvP being brutal isn't necessarily a condemning of PvP as a whole at all. Honestly, PvP in most games can quite easily be brutal to some extent. That's just how PvP is. You're fighting against the most dangerous game. Edited June 19 by Arnox.5128 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lincolnbeard.1735 Posted June 19 Share Posted June 19 Even if they implemented gvg, gw2 lacks tactical depth for it to be sucessful. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arnox.5128 Posted June 19 Author Share Posted June 19 (edited) 4 minutes ago, Lincolnbeard.1735 said: gw2 lacks tactical depth for it to be sucessful. ... You guys have gotta be trolling me. That's what this is, right? If so, I admit it, you got me! Edited June 19 by Arnox.5128 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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