[SA] are exploiting to glitch inside ebg blue keep

[T G.7496]

There's an argument to say that using failures in map design in synergy with the skills and abilities made available in the game isn't cheating.

This is commonly called an exploit, and it's generally frowned upon.

But one might reasonably consider it to be the responsibility of the game designers to design-out exploits where they exist. In fact, they do this quite often when wonky skill synergies are discovered.

The fact that after years of some of these map 'exploits' existing Anet has yet to fix them, suggests either a next-level degree of negligence or that Anet doesn't consider them to be exploits.

I don't feel particularly strongly about this either way, to be honest.

What I do feel strongly about is the other, quite distinct thing being discussed here and which is being conflated with exploiting. And that's the use of third party software to deliberately hack the game to provide unfair advantage through cheating.

It's hard to overstate the contempt I have for those compelled to cheat in this way.

But the world is the way it is.

I'd have zero issue with the collective punishment of guilds who, beyond doubt, harbour or encourage cheaters.

Paint a cross on the door and burn the house down.

What's the worst that can happen? Some sweaty kid smashes his keyboard in pitious rage, or a basement dweller paws his neckbeard in anguish.

Make better choices.

Edited June 21 by T G.7496

[Zyreva.1078]

4 hours ago, T G.7496 said:

I'd have zero issue with the collective punishment of guilds who, beyond doubt, harbour or encourage cheaters.

But how do you figure out - beyond doubt - that every single member of a guild that has one or multiple hackers, is actively supporting those? Well, unless all of them are hacking ofc. But then you don't need to ban them based on guild membership, you simply ban them for hacking. There better be a lot of "checks" to make sure nobody innocent gets punished, and even then - i still don't like the idea of collective punishment.

[T G.7496]

12 minutes ago, Zyreva.1078 said:

But how do you figure out - beyond doubt - that every single member of a guild that has one or multiple hackers, is actively supporting those? Well, unless all of them are hacking ofc. But then you don't need to ban them based on guild membership, you simply ban them for hacking. There better be a lot of "checks" to make sure nobody innocent gets punished, and even then - i still don't like the idea of collective punishment.

I didn't say every single member.

I said beyond doubt harbouring or encouraging. That's grey, I know, but it implies a period of time, multiple instances, multiple members, chat logs, etc.

I'm neither a dev, an investigator nor a prosecutor. But burning them out of refuges is a legitimate approach for me. Maybe there would be some collateral damage, but nobody would die.

Perhaps that's too severe for some tastes.

I think it would be pretty clear where the nests were though. I don't think anyone would countenance nuking a community guild, for example.

Anyway, it was just a provocation from someone who despises cheats.

[ArchonWing.9480]

12 hours ago, T G.7496 said:

There's an argument to say that using failures in map design in synergy with the skills and abilities made available in the game isn't cheating.

This is commonly called an exploit, and it's generally frowned upon.

But one might reasonably consider it to be the responsibility of the game designers to design-out exploits where they exist. In fact, they do this quite often when wonky skill synergies are discovered.

The fact that after years of some of these map 'exploits' existing Anet has yet to fix them, suggests either a next-level degree of negligence or that Anet doesn't consider them to be exploits.

I don't feel particularly strongly about this either way, to be honest.

What I do feel strongly about is the other, quite distinct thing being discussed here and which is being conflated with exploiting. And that's the use of third party software to deliberately hack the game to provide unfair advantage through cheating.

It's hard to overstate the contempt I have for those compelled to cheat in this way.

But the world is the way it is.

I'd have zero issue with the collective punishment of guilds who, beyond doubt, harbour or encourage cheaters.

Paint a cross on the door and burn the house down.

What's the worst that can happen? Some sweaty kid smashes his keyboard in pitious rage, or a basement dweller paws his neckbeard in anguish.

Make better choices.

Well, no argument from me that there's been a great deal of negligence-- they literally do not fix bugs that have existed for years. However, Anet also makes no distinction between hacking and exploiting, so there's no argument-- they can and will ban people regardless.

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Exploit

ArenaNet defines an exploit as any deliberate action that provides an unfair advantage over other players or otherwise hurts the game, community, or economy; it does not matter whether the exploit is a hack or makes use of a mechanic (bugged or otherwise) within the game. Before taking punitive action on an account, ANet considers whether players made deliberate use of the exploit; use of hacks or bots is always assumed to be deliberate

So beyond the fact that hacks are automatically guilty of cheating, that's about that.

The other thing is this is not a court of law-- it's simply a business refusing to do business with certain unsightly people, so it won't be to the same standards.

  

12 hours ago, senftube.6081 said:

ArenaNet did that, they did ban and/or force renamed a whole guild in the past.

That's not really a punishment. Forcing people to rename characters and guilds is pretty common.

Edited June 21 by ArchonWing.9480

[joneirikb.7506]

5 hours ago, ArchonWing.9480 said:

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Exploit

Quote

Does it provide you with an unfair advantage over other players?

Ok, so I could make an argument that this means player skill = exploit ? 😇
 

[ArchonWing.9480]

2 hours ago, joneirikb.7506 said:

Ok, so I could make an argument that this means player skill = exploit ? 😇
 

I'm sure many people actually do this.  🤣

[Michailski.6352]

On 6/19/2024 at 8:05 PM, Riba.3271 said:

Wow, [SA] used to be respected ganker/1vs1 guild, but if they are actually cheating, they have fallen very far.

Now they are like an adult bribing to participate and win elementary school sports event.

HaHaHa.. ages ago a thief of them wasn't able to press one corect button. and since he decided to fail at my homeboarder i killed him hundreds of times. but then. over night. he turned into a gaming god. and i couldn't hit him anymore. and when he managed to kill me he was that proud that he had to whisper me. and in the wave of the usuall trashtalk he told me my gear. that way he told me at least that he used something like the forbidden version of dpsarc. when mirage was in gw2 he changed to that class and was the only unkillable one in the game. and of course he wasn't banned at the bannwave, which was not that long after that. he was a part of our opponents after that. but i wonder who got banned in that wave anyways. no one of the known cheaters disappeared. i don't think they all took a break in that time.^^

Your "respected ganker/1vs1 guild" started at eotm as far i know. at least i saw them there farming noobs which tried to reach the comander in a "fair" 5 vs 1. when they tried to farm players between our keep and sm we send them back to eotm. and then there must be a day when they decided to goole skill, bug, hack, cheat. maybe you have a strange humor or we have very different views on the things.^^

On 6/19/2024 at 8:59 PM, Zyreva.1078 said:

(Perma) banning players for bug abuse/exploits is problematic, because where to draw the line? Bug abusing can happen unintentionally and without knowledge (unlike hacking, no mercy there!). Sure, bugging into structures in WvW doesn't happen accidentially, especially when done repeatedly, but it still begs the question whether it is actual exploiting or simply creative use of game mechanics with anets blessing, especially when considering how long these issues has been in the game with the devs knowing and nothing being done about it. And there are many many more bugs in the game, that are much harder to judge regarding intention from both dev side (bug or not?) and player side (accident or not?).

If anet suddenly starts banning players for stuff that wasn't sanctioned for years despite their knowledge, and that has a high chance of eventually affecting players that weren't intentionally doing anything bad, it creates an atmosphere of fear, and players might start worrying they could be the next innocent victim. Which is probably much worse than players occasionally getting upset about witnessing exploiters.

This doesn't mean players should be free to do whatever they want. Anything that could be unintentional behaviour should be reported - and then it's on the devs to decide whether it needs actual fixing (and then take appropriate action to get it fixed - and personally i do think bugging into structures falls into this category) or whether it is deemed ok.

Also 100% agreement with @Tailbreaker.1540's post - banning entire guilds "just like that" is a no go.

there are gamerules and we all had to agree to them before we could start to play. so if anet suddenly start to force them it would simply be fair. but don't be afraid. i don't think that will happen before they realize they lost a big part of their players. but that will not happen since people in pve rarely care about bugusing or cheating. as far i realized anet did allready something. i can't find the phrase saying "to circumvent game mechanics is a violation of the gamerules" anymore. that solves a lot of problems 😄

Edited June 23 by Michailski.6352
forgot: the name anet ^^

[Aeolus.3615]

Just now, joneirikb.7506 said:

Ok, so I could make an argument that this means player skill = exploit ? 😇
 

working as intended xD besides i would put my hand on fire and bet that Anet does not sees it as a bad thing, since is removes the staleness of some maps and "creates content" to cap back stuff lol.. Anet would only fix if is somehitng more like  some invible wall that lost is colision effect like the one we had on red map garrison where players would just walk in from on sides of the pyramid zone.

I would even bet Anet secretly hopes that once in a while that happens to avoid staleness of the map.

Edited June 22 by Aeolus.3615