Wait wait wait; Firebrands get auto recharging mantras in PvE now but not Mesmers?

[Ravenwulfe.5360]

Ok I just read the patch notes. Firebrands are now getting auto recharging mantras in PvE. Ok, what about Mesmers? Am I reading into this wrong or something?

[Levetty.1279]

One of the most blatant examples of class bias this game has seen.

[frazazel.7501]

Blue boy has had it rough for a few patch cycles. Chrono was treading on his turf.

[Gesbo.6420]

Guys the skills are different. Our mantras have a strong effects on charge. We are comparing apples and oranges.

[Levetty.1279]

2 minutes ago, Gesbo.6420 said:

Guys the skills are different. Our mantras have a strong effects on charge. We are comparing apples and oranges.

I'd rather just not have a massive cast time for mediocre effects.

[Ravenwulfe.5360]

4 minutes ago, Gesbo.6420 said:

Guys the skills are different. Our mantras have a strong effects on charge. We are comparing apples and oranges.

Yea, not going to agree with that. Especially since they just got the area of effect widened no less, and it's still going to be a net improvement since they don't have to waste time recasting a mantra after they used their charges. Not to mention mesmer mantras only have two charges. Also a lot of effects for the mantras are only benefited after we use up all charges so sitting on our mantras tends to be a downside. So not seeing this being an apples and oranges situation more of red apple versus green apple.

Edited June 25 by Ravenwulfe.5360

[ZephidelGRS.9520]

Their Mantras literally do nothing on the 1st cast. Imagine a 2s cast skill that does virtually nothing; even with Quickness that's still bad. Another important difference is ours work in 360 radius, while theirs have.......a peculiar shape. 

I do hate Guardians as much as the next guy, but this is honestly not a reason to dislike them.

[Gesbo.6420]

3 minutes ago, Ravenwulfe.5360 said:

Yea, not going to agree with that. Especially since they just got the area of effect widened no less, and it's still going to be a net improvement since they don't have to waste time recasting a mantra after they used their charges. Not to mention mesmer mantras only have two charges. Also a lot of effects for the mantras are only benefited after we use up all charges so sitting on our mantras tends to be a downside. So not seeing this being an apples and oranges situation more of red apple versus green apple.

I see your point but our range is not a cone. It's a 360 aoe around us, one of them is even 600 range. Their strongest charge is their last, our strongest charge is the first. 

What is the gameplay loop playing a mesmer when you have mantras equipped?

You charge your mantra, your mantra you get a strong effect (burst heal, agies, 12 condition cleansed) you use the "mediocre" charges, you wait for your cooldowns.

And what is the guardian loop? 

You charge your mantra and get nothing our of it, you use your mediocre effects and avoid using your strongest charge and risk waiting a cooldown+cast time.

What the designers are Trying to introduce is the same mechanics us, however the strong effect is the last charge and then wait for cooldown... 

[Teknomancer.4895]

34 minutes ago, frazazel.7501 said:

Blue boy has had it rough for a few patch cycles. Chrono was treading on his turf.

In this case, someone finally realized that making Guardians prepare to do a thing instead of just doing it was actually stepping on Mesmer's toes. That's our class mechanic, they simply can't allow other classes to be inconvenienced like that, especially not The Favored One.

[draxynnic.3719]

7 hours ago, Teknomancer.4895 said:

In this case, someone finally realized that making Guardians prepare to do a thing instead of just doing it was actually stepping on Mesmer's toes. That's our class mechanic, they simply can't allow other classes to be inconvenienced like that, especially not The Favored One.

That's the distinction, though - mesmers do get something immediately on charging their mantras. Of course, in most cases the mantra is intended to be used reactively so the benefit gained on charging the mantra is not always useful, but hey, if an attack is really telegraphed in advance maybe you can get the Aegis on Mantra of Concentration to block it!

[DanAlcedo.3281]

Looking at the playrate of mesmer right now, buffing mesmer is maybe something they want to avoid. 

Ohh wait, it's Anet. Not buffing the most played class is out of character. 

[Trejgon.9367]

Mesmer mantras: cast time for big effect, 2 charges of smaller affect, applies in one nice uniform radius around the mesmer.

Firebrand mantras: charging cast time does nothing outside of refreshing the ammo count, first 2 charges is weaker effect, final charge is the strong effect. Applies in longer distance in a frontal cone, and very tiny radius outside of that cone.

They were designed like that specifically to make them "different" so that people do not complain how guardian is getting copy-paste of mesmer skills, but that come with an issue, where doing the important "big" skill is effective punishment, because you don't just put whole thing on cooldown, but you also then have to spend time in combat doing literally nothing, just to regain your changes.

Mesmer mantras are meant to be used for big effect first, then have some additional instant cast charges of utility, firebrands are meant to have some utility first and the bug effect at the last charge, should they choose to put whole thing on cd. Also on side note, this is not the first time they made firebrand mantras instant recharge in pve, it is a "rework" they did some time ago, then backed off of, and now they are partially getting back to it.

if you think mesmer mantras are not where they should be, feel free to ask for charge time reduction, or improvement of the big initial effect.

[Levetty.1279]

21 hours ago, ZephidelGRS.9520 said:

Imagine a 2s cast skill that does virtually nothing; even with Quickness that's still bad.

We don't have to imagine, that is literally what mantras are.

[Passerbye.6291]

While I'd very much like to have a 3rd charge on mesmer mantras to make mantra of pain cooldown management less punishing since you want to use it as soon as it hits 2 charges most of the time to optimize damage and never the last charge, I don't think removing the prep time is the answer considering the fact that mantras are already some of the stronger skills in mesmer toolkit, evidenced by the fact that they are in all of the non-condi builds out there.

Heal mantra is the single best healing skill for heal chrono, easily outperforming every other mesmer heal by a wide margin even after the recent nerf to double mantra healing proc.
Stab mantra is an incredible on demand group stab and self stun break, also doubling as a potential source of group aegis upon channeling (granted this requires good encounter knowledge as you'll have to use it preemptively due to the long channel time for the aegis). 
Cleanse mantra does exactly what you'd expect it to, on demand condi cleanse, it isn't a must pick, but it works incredibly well where it's needed.
Mantra of pain isn't all that impressive in terms of what it does, and yet it still finds its way in all power-based dps and boon dps builds for mesmer due to essentially being a free damage skill with no cast time opportunity cost.

All these things considered, I can see their reluctance to make mesmer mantras even more powerful than their current state, and tbh, from a gameplay standpoint, I feel like we need more skills that function in a different way than "press button, gain effect" to keep things interesting, not fewer. Before they readded channeling to mantras, their only opportunity cost was the skill slot they occupied, everything else they did came free, making them the clear choice for any given purpose they served. As they are now, at least they potentially offer interesting gameplay loops where you need to make a decision on whether you wish to use the last charge of a mantra in any given situation, like using the last mantra of pain charge right before a boss phases, dump stab mantra charges to have an extra source of aegis ready 10 seconds later etc.

Edited June 27 by Passerbye.6291

[draxynnic.3719]

12 hours ago, Levetty.1279 said:

We don't have to imagine, that is literally what mantras are.

All mesmer mantras generate some sort of effect when you charge them. One could question the value of this in practice, since they're often charged out of combat and can't exactly be used reactively, but they DO trigger something on charging, unlike firebrand mantras.

[Levetty.1279]

6 hours ago, Passerbye.6291 said:

Heal mantra is the single best healing skill for heal chrono, easily outperforming every other mesmer heal by a wide margin even after the recent nerf to double mantra healing proc.
Stab mantra is an incredible on demand group stab and self stun break, also doubling as a potential source of group aegis upon channeling (granted this requires good encounter knowledge as you'll have to use it preemptively due to the long channel time for the aegis). 
Cleanse mantra does exactly what you'd expect it to, on demand condi cleanse, it isn't a must pick, but it works incredibly well where it's needed.
Mantra of pain isn't all that impressive in terms of what it does, and yet it still finds its way in all power-based dps and boon dps builds for mesmer due to essentially being a free damage skill with no cast time opportunity cost.

Most of those are the only options Mesmer has to do the effect they are doing and aren't that different form other classes equivalents.

 

47 minutes ago, draxynnic.3719 said:

All mesmer mantras generate some sort of effect when you charge them. One could question the value of this in practice, since they're often charged out of combat and can't exactly be used reactively, but they DO trigger something on charging, unlike firebrand mantras.

Kind of just brushing past a major design flaw there.

[draxynnic.3719]

1 minute ago, Levetty.1279 said:

Kind of just brushing past a major design flaw there.

Nah, pointing out that your claim is wrong. A "2s cast skill that does virtually nothing" is not "literally what mantras are" because mantra charges do do something.

What you refer to as "brushing past" is in fact my acknowledgement that your claim can be false while it can also be true that there is an underlying problem (as I commented earlier, how often is an aegis on a 2s skill actually useful?). But any effort to resolve that underlying problem is more likely to be taken seriously if you target it directly rather than misrepresenting the situation in a way that can be falsified through the wiki or a quick check in-game, let alone by people who actually use the skills in question.

[Passerbye.6291]

55 minutes ago, Levetty.1279 said:

Most of those are the only options Mesmer has to do the effect they are doing and aren't that different form other classes equivalents.

Well of eternity does aoe healing, condi cleanses, provides a light field for even more condi cleansing and then heal even more at the end due to a trait interacting with wells and yet the healing mantra is objectively the better option. Now imagine how much better it would be if it also had no channel time. Saying healing mantra is the best choice due to a lack of any other good option is straight up false. Healing mantra is used because it is overloaded, evidenced by the fact that they nerfed the heal on it by roughly half by removing the trait mantra interaction and it still remains the best choice.

Stab mantra is a 600 radius instant cast stab access with low cooldown and 2 charges, it can also double up as an aegis source depending on how you use it. It is one of the best on demand skills in the game, requiring 0 skill to use due to its massive radius and instant cast, and has a cooldown of 15 seconds after consuming the charges, accounting for chrono alac and the channel time to get the charges back, you're looking at about 11.5 seconds of cooldown before you can use them again, making it the most frequently available stab access without forcing you into something like dwarf stance on revenant.

For cleanse mantra, while this really isn't how cleanse output should be measured, but just to display the maximum output, you're looking at a 12-second cooldown after spending both charges, assume 1 second to spend both charges and 1.5 seconds to channel it, factoring in chrono alac, you're looking at 9 cleanses on allies and 16 cleanses on yourself every 10.5 or so seconds, very few skills reach this level of cleanse output in the game, saying that it is the best choice due to a lack of better options is, again, strictly disingenuous.

For mantra of pain, boon chrono can use phantasmal disenchanter in its stead, dps chrono can use another well, and yet they don't, clearly proving that it isn't the only skill choice that does damage, and yet mantra of pain remains the better output, proving your claim false.

That's literally 4 out of the 5 mantras on mesmer, and to be honest I could make the same point on mantra of distraction as well, but I think my point is made by now.

[Levetty.1279]

13 hours ago, draxynnic.3719 said:

Nah, pointing out that your claim is wrong. A "2s cast skill that does virtually nothing" is not "literally what mantras are" because mantra charges do do something.

What you refer to as "brushing past" is in fact my acknowledgement that your claim can be false while it can also be true that there is an underlying problem (as I commented earlier, how often is an aegis on a 2s skill actually useful?). But any effort to resolve that underlying problem is more likely to be taken seriously if you target it directly rather than misrepresenting the situation in a way that can be falsified through the wiki or a quick check in-game, let alone by people who actually use the skills in question.

No you yourself stated a major flaw in the design and then just acted like it was nothing because it goes against your narrative that Anet can do no wrong.

It is simple, if slapping an unnecessarily long cast time on Mantras wasn't a bad thing they wouldn't have just taken it off Guardian.

[draxynnic.3719]

9 hours ago, Levetty.1279 said:

No you yourself stated a major flaw in the design and then just acted like it was nothing because it goes against your narrative that Anet can do no wrong.

It is simple, if slapping an unnecessarily long cast time on Mantras wasn't a bad thing they wouldn't have just taken it off Guardian.

Hahahah.

Dude, I have no narrative here. It's just that what you claimed was factually incorrect.

If anything, my underlying narrative is that there absolutely is a problem. You yourself just stated that I stated a major flaw in the design, and that wasn't by accident. But we'd be better off if we said things like "aegis on a 2s cast time is not something you can use reactively, especially when you also need that 2s charge time to have your reactive stability+stunbreak and if you start that channel just a little late it might get interrupted thereby leaving you without the stunbreak you need, so it's almost always more valuable to charge that mantra well in advance meaning that in practice you usually don't actually get the benefit of that aegis"...

...than if we did what you were doing and insist that the aegis doesn't exist at all, thereby destroying any credibility we might have.

[frazazel.7501]

Don't feed the trolls, man.

[Levetty.1279]

13 hours ago, draxynnic.3719 said:

Hahahah.

Dude, I have no narrative here. It's just that what you claimed was factually incorrect.

If anything, my underlying narrative is that there absolutely is a problem. You yourself just stated that I stated a major flaw in the design, and that wasn't by accident. But we'd be better off if we said things like "aegis on a 2s cast time is not something you can use reactively, especially when you also need that 2s charge time to have your reactive stability+stunbreak and if you start that channel just a little late it might get interrupted thereby leaving you without the stunbreak you need, so it's almost always more valuable to charge that mantra well in advance meaning that in practice you usually don't actually get the benefit of that aegis"...

...than if we did what you were doing and insist that the aegis doesn't exist at all, thereby destroying any credibility we might have.

I am literally asking for the cast time to be removed. I have been doing since it got added it back. You are agreeing with me but just want to argue?

[draxynnic.3719]

20 hours ago, Levetty.1279 said:

I am literally asking for the cast time to be removed. I have been doing since it got added it back. You are agreeing with me but just want to argue?

If, hypothetically, the cast time was to be removed - and I'm not saying I'm for or against that - all of the mantras would also need to be rebalanced to account for not having the on-charge effect or the refresh of all the charges when the mantra is prepared.

Mesmer mantras were terrible when the charging mechanic was removed without considering how mesmer mantras had been designed differently to firebrand - having it restored was a net buff. 

[Levetty.1279]

I don't know how you could possibly think slapping a long cast time on a skill is a buff.

[draxynnic.3719]

13 hours ago, Levetty.1279 said:

I don't know how you could possibly think slapping a long cast time on a skill is a buff.

Because the alternative at the time was that you had the same charge time recovery with no opportunity to refresh it.

The count refresh rate was the same as it is now. But that meant that for, say, Mantra of Concentration, that stunbreak and 3s duration of stability was effectively on a 30s cooldown. If you had to blow it twice in quick succession, it could be up to 30s before you can use it again, and up to a full minute of no use before you again have the ability to use it in quick succession. And you can mostly replicate this behaviour now by just not using the second charge. But it was absolutely terrible compared to basically every other stability skill in the game (compare and contrast to the old guardian standby Stand Your Ground, for instance). I pretty much stopped using mantras entirely apart from Mantra of Pain (free damage on a 10s count refresh is still free damage) as a result.

Now, let's consider this with the meditation. When you use the final charge, you have (without quickness/alacrity) a 15s cooldown and then, if you can get a window for a 2s cooldown, you get both counts back in less time than it would normally take to get one back. Furthermore, the aegis and stability you get just from charging means you have a 5-10s window, depending on boon duration, where you probably won't need to use either of those charges. Your overall stability coverage for your group is much greater.

Similar observations, with minor alterations, apply to all of the other mesmer mantras. The only time when the system without the meditation channel was better was when you needed both charges but simply had no opportunity to channel over the time that it took to recharge the charge counts.

The reason why the removal of the channel works for firebrand and not for mesmer is that firebrand and mesmer mantras were always intended to be different. Firebrand has short count refresh rates but a long wait until they can channel again - this was aimed towards a playstyle whereby they'd only want to expend the final charge in critical moments and then have a long period before they could use the mantra again. Mesmer mantras, by contrast, were the opposite - the intention was that the mesmer would blow their charges quickly and then channel for more charges, even if still in combat. That the counts refresh on their own without a channel was primarily a QoL change: if you use one charge but don't need the other, you don't feel forced to blow the second charge just so you can rechannel, the first charge will (eventually) come back on its own.

The problem was that they didn't take this into account when they removed the channel - they left the long count recharges with no means to speed them up, making them severely underpowered for their effect relative to their cooldown (with Pain surviving because mesmer has few DPS utilities and instant damage is instant damage).

For channel-free mesmer mantras to work, they would need to make mesmer mantras behave the same as firebrand in terms of count recharge as well. Cut the count recharge time in half, and it might work. Leaving the count recharges as they are, which is what they did because the balance lead at the time was a firebrand main who didn't care about mesmers apart from staff alacmirage, left them severely underpowered.