My proposal: how to make underwater content viable and feasible

[DarkK.7368]

1. Make literally ALL UNDERGROUND WEAPONS and ALL UNDERGROUND SKILLS work underwater, LITERALLY the same way as ground. Period. You don't have to care about "but fire can't work underwater, but, but". It's a magic world.

How can it work? My proposal.

2. If you are not targeting an enemy, underwater controls won't change. The INSTANT you target an enemy (hard lock on, or auto-target), your player will AUTOMATICALLY swim vertically to put itself at the same depth height as the enemy, at every second, even if the enemy moves away. Now, the combat works literally like in the ground. You can even "draw" a "magic" new ground to make it easier. Now, all ground weapons and skill can work 100% the same, what takes MINIMUM effort and should be 100% feasible to make.

At least myself won't care losing underwater weapons, and I think the ONLY way to make people like it, is allowing to use our underground set at 100%, including gameplay. There is still people that hates moving in a 3D environment? Sure, but at least they can use their normal gear and won't feel like wanting to die. And at least combat will be again 2D in a "floor", so that should solve it.

And this opens the gate for aerial fights for next expansion. Exactly SAME mechanic, just flying instead of diving.

EDITED to remove a bad point

Edited July 12 by DarkK.7368

[Randulf.7614]

No one is taking away my trident. I like my trident skills and whilst I am happy for some reworks, I can't support any changes that involve removing the three weapons

It's also not going to happen. There are collections tied to the actual weapons without worruing about converting skins. That alone will stop it from happening due to bugs and breakages, but to invalidate anyone who made a legendary UW weapon is a bad idea.

I have no issue necs with adapting the land weapons for UW use though. But taking away the three UW weapons is both a hard no from me and likely not even possible without causing significant bugs and breaks

[DarkK.7368]

14 minutes ago, Randulf.7614 said:

No one is taking away my trident. I like my trident skills and whilst I am happy for some reworks, I can't support any changes that involve removing the three weapons

It's also not going to happen. There are collections tied to the actual weapons without worruing about converting skins. That alone will stop it from happening due to bugs and breakages, but to invalidate anyone who made a legendary UW weapon is a bad idea.

I have no issue necs with adapting the land weapons for UW use though. But taking away the three UW weapons is both a hard no from me and likely not even possible without causing significant bugs and breaks

Well okay, I guess my proposal can still work maintaining current underwater weapons 🫠

[Donari.5237]

I happen to like the 3d combat and being able to shoot at things above and below me.  I can also see a big issue with being pulled up or down to be level with the target.  Sometimes the targeting system randomly grabs onto some bystander mob, which can even be on the other side of an obstacle from you.  Cue being mashed up into a cave ceiling or down into some coral, or at the very least being yanked away from your actual preferred target because the game decides you didn't want to hit the megalodon, that jellyfish 900 units above you needs punishing.

Side note, I think you don't mean "underground" weapons.  Just "land weapons" would be clear enough.  Only scourges do burrowing in combat.

[DeanBB.4268]

1 hour ago, DarkK.7368 said:

1. Make literally ALL UNDERGROUND WEAPONS and ALL UNDERGROUND SKILLS work underwater...

Underground? Are you saying use just the regular weapons (sword axe, etc)? Or did you mean underwater?

I have a simpler solution: Just eliminate all underwater enemies. Boom! Done!

[DarkK.7368]

51 minutes ago, DeanBB.4268 said:

Underground? Are you saying use just the regular weapons (sword axe, etc)? Or did you mean underwater?

I have a simpler solution: Just eliminate all underwater enemies. Boom! Done!

Brainlag hahaha All ground regular weapons into underwater

But I like fighting enemies underwater. I just want to use my ground weapons

[Shuzuru.3651]

I see no point in having underwater combat being simillar to ground combat (because that's basically your proposition, split in 2 point)

I would rather leave it as it is than that

[Gehenna.3625]

14 hours ago, DarkK.7368 said:

1. Make literally ALL UNDERGROUND WEAPONS and ALL UNDERGROUND SKILLS work underwater, LITERALLY the same way as ground. Period. You don't have to care about "but fire can't work underwater, but, but". It's a magic world.

How can it work? My proposal.

2. If you are not targeting an enemy, underwater controls won't change. The INSTANT you target an enemy (hard lock on, or auto-target), your player will AUTOMATICALLY swim vertically to put itself at the same depth height as the enemy, at every second, even if the enemy moves away. Now, the combat works literally like in the ground. You can even "draw" a "magic" new ground to make it easier. Now, all ground weapons and skill can work 100% the same, what takes MINIMUM effort and should be 100% feasible to make.

At least myself won't care losing underwater weapons, and I think the ONLY way to make people like it, is allowing to use our underground set at 100%, including gameplay. There is still people that hates moving in a 3D environment? Sure, but at least they can use their normal gear and won't feel like wanting to die. And at least combat will be again 2D in a "floor", so that should solve it.

And this opens the gate for aerial fights for next expansion. Exactly SAME mechanic, just flying instead of diving.

EDITED to remove a bad point

I doubt those changes would make underwater content viable. I think there are more reasons that underwater content is not that popular. As for the feasibility, I'm not convinced it is feasible. I feel you very much underestimate how much work it would be to make it like you propose and just saying that it takes minimum effort, well, I just don't buy that. You do understand that the 2D floor underwater you're talking about is not just one floor but many floors that change constantly? And that alone could make it very much not feasible.

And the business case,  with which I mean the cost vs benefit calculation, simply doesn't add up imo. 

[Zebulous.2934]

 I believe that the main reason that the devs stopped working on water combat was that the majority of the player population found the combat to be frustrating and not fun.
Looking at the different professions we can see that some are far superior in the water than others.  I don't know if it was a balance decision, but all it seemed to do was cause those professions to try to avoid water content.  If your play-group hates water combat, then you aren't going to have many opportunities to participate in water combat.

Personally I like the idea of fighting in three-ish dimensions.  I also realize that an additional plain would add more complexity to keep track of. 
The controls are deliberately "floaty," because of water resistance.  Outside of skill based movement, movement is sluggish.  Being downed moves you away from help as you automatically try to swim to the surface.  

I believe that removing the Y-axis to convert water combat to pseudo-ground combat defeats the purpose, and would remove many players' desire to fight underwater.

The mechanics that make aquatic combat appealing also make it annoying.  Activities can be interesting and not fun at the same time. 
Being not fun is a problem. 
If Anet is going to revitalize water combat then they are going to have to find a way to make it substantially more fun than it is frustrating.   I have vague ideas of what not to do, but I don't have any ideas about what needs to be done to make it fun.

[DarkK.7368]

It can be interesting to debate is 3D is or not is the problem, but coming from the ground, all your options, make your own build, to "come underwater, you have THIS weapon, and if you don't like it, then screw you". And if you are a privilleged class, you can choose between TWO! (2) weapons. You enjoy two weapons, one of each hand, like most people LOVE and it's their option in ground? GO TO HELL pick this large stick and use it with two hands.

That's why I think that underwater content won't work until all ground options work there too. After that, we could debate what's the best way to make it work, it's 3D, it's 2D... what's the least costly option...

[Zebulous.2934]

20 hours ago, DarkK.7368 said:

That's why I think that underwater content won't work until all ground options work there too. 

I disagree.  If they make all "ground" weapons available underwater, before anything else, it could be a costly failure.  They do have to know if Aoe skills will be circles on a 2D plain or if they will be spheres in a 3D area.   Do the weapons keep their land skills? Do they get new aquatic skills with new animations?  It could cost a lot of development time and money. 
If the aquatic combat still isn't fun after all of that effort, people will be fired, demoted, receive pay cuts.   If I were an Anet Dev I would not want to be assigned to that project, it would be too much of a risk.
Before Anet revamps water combat they need to figure out how to make it fun.  If they can figure that out, then they can feel safe enough to make major changes.

[Batalix.2873]

On 7/12/2024 at 12:57 PM, Randulf.7614 said:

No one is taking away my trident. I like my trident skills and whilst I am happy for some reworks, I can't support any changes that involve removing the three weapons

It's also not going to happen. There are collections tied to the actual weapons without worruing about converting skins. That alone will stop it from happening due to bugs and breakages, but to invalidate anyone who made a legendary UW weapon is a bad idea.

I have no issue necs with adapting the land weapons for UW use though. But taking away the three UW weapons is both a hard no from me and likely not even possible without causing significant bugs and breaks

I do like a lot of the underwater weapon skills, but I would sacrifice them for actual underwater development and content at this point.

On 7/14/2024 at 2:13 AM, Zebulous.2934 said:

I disagree.  If they make all "ground" weapons available underwater, before anything else, it could be a costly failure.  They do have to know if Aoe skills will be circles on a 2D plain or if they will be spheres in a 3D area.   Do the weapons keep their land skills? Do they get new aquatic skills with new animations?  It could cost a lot of development time and money. 
If the aquatic combat still isn't fun after all of that effort, people will be fired, demoted, receive pay cuts.   If I were an Anet Dev I would not want to be assigned to that project, it would be too much of a risk.
Before Anet revamps water combat they need to figure out how to make it fun.  If they can figure that out, then they can feel safe enough to make major changes.

It's not that bizarre.  A lot of 3D sphere and 2D AoEs have already been implemented. I don't think it's as daunting as people think, especially since underwater combat at the moment isn't particularly difficult, precise, or complicated.

[illuminati.8453]

Underwater exploration and combat are features they shouldn't have abandoned.   Anet is very good at not recognizing things that differentiate themselves from other MMOs. 

[Nash.2681]

To make underwater combat somewhat desireable, it only needs two words: consistent hitboxes.

The rest is fine tuning and l2p from playerside. But as long as there are enemies displayed somewhere totaly else than their hitbox actually is, everything else is moot.