Loss Of Community Under WR System

[RlyOsim.2497]

Hi,

This post is regarding the loss of community and how that loss is manifesting in an unhappy playerbase. Community here is taken to mean the wider communities that existed on the old individual servers. Primarily, this post is meant to highlight and explain the issue, I don't have solutions but that's not the purpose, it's more a topic for discussion/improvement as it's likely something the community can progress without reliance on the developers. At the onset I want to point out that there are positives about the new system and that the purpose of this post is not to offer criticism of the new system.

So, as above, the loss of communities is causing a subsection of the playerbase to be unhappy under the new WR setup. It is my view that a large part of this unhappiness stems from the how the loss of communities has functionally impacted moment-to-moment gameplay in WvW. Under the old system all sorts of players were lumped together into a team/server. This team could be altered somewhat by transfers but generally the teams that existed on servers persisted for months/years at a time. This is an important aspect to WvW as a somewhat stable environment adds to the richness of the game greatly by adding a knowledge vector regarding the people around you.

Take some examples: 
- Johnny is a decent roamer but doesn't really care about defending stuff. Sally calls in /m that a tower needs help being defended. Johnny doesn't really care about defending stuff, however, Johnny knows Sally is really active on the server discord and /t, always being warm and welcoming to new people. Johnny really values Sally as a member of the community and decides they will help defend the tower. Under the new system there is no Sally, it's just random clown usually so what's the point. Johnny and Sally have less of a game to play.
- Frank is a guild leader and main commander of their guild. They are guild raiding on home bl. Frank and their guild are having enjoyable fights, there's loads to fight around bay. Susan, one of the best roamers and scouts on the server, calls that there are 10 people attacking hills and they cannot hold without help. Frank has 30 people in squad and knows it would be a waste of time/content for them to travel all the way to hills, however, Frank knows Susan and her gang can usually hold that whole side of the map which allows Frank and squad to chill and just focus on the fights. Frank and gang go to hills to help. Under the new system there is no Susan, it's just random clown usually so what's the point in Frank going. Susan, and ultimately Frank and his squad, have less of a game to play.
- Mary is a hardcore zerg player but it's their day off and they are clowning EB at lunch. Under the old system Mary understood what to expect from the names/guild tags around them, 'Oh there's Teddy, he's always on some roaming heal thing and tends to support people pushing a bit, great I can push a bit!'. Under the new system Mary doesn't know any of these people, the fights have to be passive now, that richness is lost and it's less game for all involved.
- Deirdre lives outside EU but plays on an EU server at around 2pm most days. Deirdre used to be a hardcore player but now just chills and does a chat tag for an hour or two in the afternoons. The squads aren't the best as it's a chat tag but it's generally pretty fun and they do ok. Deirdre usually gets 30+ people in their squad. Johnny, Frank and Mary all join usually because it's nice to see others and flex a bit on arcdps. None of them are in the same guild as they all have very different playstyles but most days they jump on and shoot the breeze. Deirdre still exists under the new system but noone joins them as noone knows who they are so Deirdre has stopped tagging up, indeed, stopped doing the thing they logged in for. There is considerably less content for all as a result.

These are just some examples but you can multiply this out a large amount as under the old server system people had a lot of passive knowledge about those around them. To note here, I know there are a lot of counter-arguments to what I have outlined but, again, the purpose is to highlight an issue, the examples above are meant to provide direct insight as to the problem itself not offer arguments against the new system.

The above examples don't even begin to address all the other social infrastructures/interactions that were essentially wiped out under the new system. Like, sure, we all play WvW more than we probably should but the discords were always there 24/7 and it extended out way beyond the game into peoples personal life's. People posting good mornings, or happy bdays, or nice cat, that was everyone from everywhere, their playstyle or guild ingame mattered very little in the context of interactions in the wider community. Beyond that, more complicated discussions or events led to the development of specific server cultures over years and this is really important as different people could catch cozy vibes from specific communities and they invested more ingame because of those communities. While this still exists to some degree under the new system it has been heavily altered, and is considerably less diverse.

Servers too offered guilds/players a level of (for want of a better word) prestige that cannot exist under the new system. Even the worst player in a gvg guild will (generally) be viewed as a good player by the rest of the community, now they are just the worst player in their guild. That roamer doing low dps in squad is ok because that same person saved your kitten from getting ganked 5 times last night and the night before, in fact, give that party a healer! Prestige too in the sense of access to niche knowledge, like Mary that hardcore zerg player whispering someone they know to be skilled roamer to ask for a roaming build, or the roamer asking Mary for help with their zerg build.

Guilds are also an issue in this 'loss of community' context. Guilds are almost all the same hierarchical structure. This is different to the old server system, sure, some of the discords and stuff had 'leaders', but ingame, there was no leader of a server. This is fundamentally different now. The issue here, in my eyes, is that guilds have to have standards, whether that be gameplay standards or social standards or some other metric. These standards result in guild specific cultures but ultimately they represent a bar to entry. This shift is a fundamental one for the gamemode and I would argue that it's not one that can work without support as no guild can be a place for all players and whether GvG Penny, or Carebear Andy likes it or not, all players and playstyles inherently have a place in WvW. There are many other issues here specifically related to guilds, like new players, drama/conflict/differences of playstyles but I'm running low on coffee.

I really view this as something that's actually fixable, at least in part, by the community. If I was to offer one solution for Anet it would be to introduce some stable elements beyond the guilds themselves, somewhere diverse communities can come together and grow around. That said, it's way beyond Anet to try and 'patch' the social fabric of a gamemode community, but that is the core issue in my view, the social fabric of WvW has been impacted greatly with this new system.

Edited July 28 by RlyOsim.2497

[Dawdler.8521]

TL;DR I guess we vastly underestimated how lazy players really are when they can just go into their already winning world and win some more by joining the popular commanders. 

I also think it's fixable but it would require everyone to join guilds and pull their own weight regardless of being in a small or large group. So maybe a lost cause then, lol 🤷‍♂️

[Sheff.4851]

Quote

- Johnny is a decent roamer but doesn't really care about defending stuff. Sally calls in /m that a tower needs help being defended. Johnny doesn't really care about defending stuff, however, Johnny knows Sally is really active on the server discord and /t, always being warm and welcoming to new people. Johnny really values Sally as a member of the community and decides they will help defend the tower. Under the new system there is no Sally, it's just random clown usually so what's the point. Johnny and Sally have less of a game to play.
- Frank is a guild leader and main commander of their guild. They are guild raiding on home bl. Frank and their guild are having enjoyable fights, there's loads to fight around bay. Susan, one of the best roamers and scouts on the server, calls that there are 10 people attacking hills and they cannot hold without help. Frank has 30 people in squad and knows it would be a waste of time/content for them to travel all the way to hills, however, Frank knows Susan and her gang can usually hold that whole side of the map which allows Frank and squad to chill and just focus on the fights. Frank and gang go to hills to help. Under the new system there is no Susan, it's just random clown usually so what's the point in Frank going. Susan, and ultimately Frank and his squad, have less of a game to play.
- Mary is a hardcore zerg player but it's their day off and they are clowning EB at lunch. Under the old system Mary understood what to expect from the names/guild tags around them, 'Oh there's Teddy, he's always on some roaming heal thing and tends to support people pushing a bit, great I can push a bit!'. Under the new system Mary doesn't know any of these people, the fights have to be passive now, that richness is lost and it's less game for all involved.
- Deirdre lives outside EU but plays on an EU server at around 2pm most days. Deirdre used to be a hardcore player but now just chills and does a chat tag for an hour or two in the afternoons. The squads aren't the best as it's a chat tag but it's generally pretty fun and they do ok. Deirdre usually gets 30+ people in their squad. Johnny, Frank and Mary all join usually because it's nice to see others and flex a bit on arcdps. None of them are in the same guild as they all have very different playstyles but most days they jump on and shoot the breeze. Deirdre still exists under the new system but noone joins them as noone knows who they are so Deirdre has stopped tagging up, indeed, stopped doing the thing they logged in for. There is considerably less content for all as a result.

These are good examples, and they show that you have a good understanding of the different playstyles that players have in World vs. World, and how they interact with one another. But they are also contrived to fit the point you're trying to make, and opposite examples are also things that I've observed. For example:

- Frank is a guild leader and main commander. While commanding over the weekend, Frank sees a good scout call in map chat to help Hills from somebody that he doesn't recognize. Because Frank is between fights, he comes to Hills and finds that the scout call was very accurate. Frank now remembers the name of this scout, and pays more attention to them when they make calls in the future. The scout that made the call, we'll call them Susan, now knows that Frank will respond to calls when there's good fights there.

- Mary is a hardcore zerg player, but it's their day off and they're clowning on EB at lunch. Under the old system they already knew all the EB tags. This time, for lunch, they see a tag that they haven't seen before, and join squad. It turns out that it's a commander that they know from a rival guild, and they've gotten linked! Now Mary gets to see how that enemy commander runs their squads, and gets some more experience in different commanding styles and approaches.

The thing about community building is it takes community buy-in. You can't make new friends if you don't go out and try to make new friends, and a lot of existing World vs. World communities, while being positive for the people in them, were extremely insular for the people who were outside of them. Imagine a new player experience with the five stories that you've given -- a new player doesn't know any of these five people. To the new player, they all have their cliques and in-groups, and it's intimidating to break into them. At least under Restructuring, players are incentivized to talk to one another to get to know them, and build new communities that span across links and team shuffles.

[Chaba.5410]

Here's an old story about loss of community to compare with "the old system":

The common theme to me in this story is that players were no longer "winning" as easily as they had been, what they were used to.  Kodash started as a Full T1 server before server links started.  It was considered the EU version of YB with their love of arrow carts.  I played briefly a few times on that server too before server links.  After some time with server links and not getting a link because (imho) of restrictions on language linking back then and being an already Full server, a large part of that community bandwagoned to another German server.  Think of it like as if BG in NA had dropped from T1 to last place while remaining Full and no link.  Everybody decided to leave and Kodash never became a host server ever again.


 

 

Edited July 28 by Chaba.5410

[Ashen.2907]

1 hour ago, Sheff.4851 said:

These are good examples, and they show that you have a good understanding of the different playstyles that players have in World vs. World, and how they interact with one another. But they are also contrived to fit the point you're trying to make, and opposite examples are also things that I've observed. For example:

- Frank is a guild leader and main commander. While commanding over the weekend, Frank sees a good scout call in map chat to help Hills from somebody that he doesn't recognize. Because Frank is between fights, he comes to Hills and finds that the scout call was very accurate. Frank now remembers the name of this scout, and pays more attention to them when they make calls in the future. The scout that made the call, we'll call them Susan, now knows that Frank will respond to calls when there's good fights there.

- Mary is a hardcore zerg player, but it's their day off and they're clowning on EB at lunch. Under the old system they already knew all the EB tags. This time, for lunch, they see a tag that they haven't seen before, and join squad. It turns out that it's a commander that they know from a rival guild, and they've gotten linked! Now Mary gets to see how that enemy commander runs their squads, and gets some more experience in different commanding styles and approaches.

The thing about community building is it takes community buy-in. You can't make new friends if you don't go out and try to make new friends, and a lot of existing World vs. World communities, while being positive for the people in them, were extremely insular for the people who were outside of them. Imagine a new player experience with the five stories that you've given -- a new player doesn't know any of these five people. To the new player, they all have their cliques and in-groups, and it's intimidating to break into them. At least under Restructuring, players are incentivized to talk to one another to get to know them, and build new communities that span across links and team shuffles.

And then, as people are getting to recognize the names in your examples, they get reshuffle and don't see them again for months so that even if relinked later the process has to start all over again.

[Sheff.4851]

1 minute ago, Ashen.2907 said:

And then, as people are getting to recognize the names in your examples, they get reshuffle and don't see them again for months so that even if relinked later the process has to start all over again.

Right, and then you do it again. You build a community up every month, meeting new players, and then later those players turn out to be your enemies on other teams, or allies again in subsequent relinks. It makes the whole World vs. World community more connected, rather than isolating people inside of insular servers that don't have a chance to talk to anyone else outside of transfers.

[Ashen.2907]

9 minutes ago, Sheff.4851 said:

Right, and then you do it again. You build a community up every month, meeting new players, and then later those players turn out to be your enemies on other teams, or allies again in subsequent relinks. It makes the whole World vs. World community more connected, rather than isolating people inside of insular servers that don't have a chance to talk to anyone else outside of transfers.

Gonna have to agree to disagree. Having to start from scratch every month, or whenever, rather than having long standing relationships where I know the people in the OP's examples is not a community to me. I don't get to see the names of my enemies so who they are, relative to past experiences with them on my team, does not contribute to a sense of community in the way that knowing the allies that I had been playing with for years does.

[Chaba.5410]

16 minutes ago, Sheff.4851 said:

Right, and then you do it again. You build a community up every month, meeting new players, and then later those players turn out to be your enemies on other teams, or allies again in subsequent relinks. It makes the whole World vs. World community more connected, rather than isolating people inside of insular servers that don't have a chance to talk to anyone else outside of transfers.

You gotta admit though that one month is kind of short.  They doing one month periods because of no transfers though, as I understand it.

Ultimately, the longer one plays and gets reshuffled, the more new people one meets, results in everyone becoming familiar with everyone.  It's a larger community than just teams for sure.

[RlyOsim.2497]

Just now, Chaba.5410 said:

You gotta admit though that one month is kind of short.  They doing one month periods because of no transfers though, as I understand it.

Ultimately, the longer one plays and gets reshuffled, the more new people one meets, results in everyone becoming familiar with everyone.  It's a larger community than just teams for sure.

 

I agree with this sentiment and I do think in like 2 years this system is likely a more sustainable option than the old system. However, right now people are unhappy and from social media/this forum/ingame it seems that unhappiness is somewhat widespread. My purpose here is to discuss the (as I see it) problem that is impacting the gamemode right now with a view to helping those that are helpable because, as you say, it's a larger community than just teams for sure!

Part of my hope with this post also is that it resonates with some people and gives some shape to their frustrations so that they can try and resolve them, haha or get flamed, either or ^-^

[RisingDawn.5796]

Guilds were a core part of the WvW server community I was in, even though many guilds ended up transferring away over the years.

Because Guilds had the most influence on a server, even over server community leaders, teamspeak and discord admins and coordinators, to having trained most commanders and filling maps with organised squads and scouts during the early years, from their own guilds, other guilds + pugs.

It looks like many guilds on their old servers ended up splitting up, rather than joining a large server community guild together, which might be better for the game mode, in the current direction it is being developed towards, pairing guilds into different worlds together, with no transfers besides, between the matching period eventually.

So there was a bit more community, at least after the initial guild exodus from my original server.back in 2013, before world linkings became a permanent thing, after it's own beta.

I don't think 4 weeks is long, to get used to people, after a reshuffle. Also current large community guilds, will have to be open minded to players with different play styles and try to include other guilds and players, who at least want to communicate and coordinate things.

There are always going to be people in this game mode, who will not get along obviously, but some of the drama I've seen is so silly, between different players.

 

 

Edited July 29 by RisingDawn.5796

[Mabi black.1824]

1 hour ago, Sheff.4851 said:

Right, and then you do it again. You build a community up every month, meeting new players, and then later those players turn out to be your enemies on other teams, or allies again in subsequent relinks. It makes the whole World vs. World community more connected, rather than isolating people inside of insular servers that don't have a chance to talk to anyone else outside of transfers.

Factions - Diversity - Friends - Foes - Belonging - Team Spirit . they are all different things and must remain different things. How many times have we seen a friendly guild jump your server, then become your number 1 enemy and that thing kept you glued to WVW for 4 more hours because you found them on the opposite side. This is a team/server game and everything I have listed needs to be amplified. Making it flat is not the same thing. and it won't get you far.

[Gop.8713]

If only there was some in-game way for all those crazy kids to hook up and play together. Oh well . . .

I do agree that two months is too short tho, so valid point there . . .

EDIT: Wow, sry, conflated my ideas there. I meant to say that I agree one month is too short, would rather see two ; p

Edited July 28 by Gop.8713

[Symbiosis.8729]

2 hours ago, Sheff.4851 said:

rather than isolating people inside of insular servers that don't have a chance to talk to anyone else outside of transfers.

seems like this guy never heard of server links, or discord conversations, or in game chat, in the EU MOST of the active commanders knew of others outside the server and sometimes played with them. He is not acting in good faith in his reponses and deliberately winding up the forums; avoid..

[Sheff.4851]

8 hours ago, Chaba.5410 said:

You gotta admit though that one month is kind of short.  They doing one month periods because of no transfers though, as I understand it.

Ultimately, the longer one plays and gets reshuffled, the more new people one meets, results in everyone becoming familiar with everyone.  It's a larger community than just teams for sure.

I do think one month is too short for meaningful community building, but two months is too long for the 1U1D system, because then high performing and low performing servers get stuck in stale matchups at the top and bottom of the tiers. Just speculating, but if part of the competitive rewards rework includes canning 1U1D as a system, I'd expect the reshuffle period to go back to two months, and then include some (limited) means of transferring. Both the 1 month and 2 month periods have positives and negatives.

[Chaba.5410]

9 hours ago, Symbiosis.8729 said:

seems like this guy never heard of server links, or discord conversations, or in game chat, in the EU MOST of the active commanders knew of others outside the server and sometimes played with them. He is not acting in good faith in his reponses and deliberately winding up the forums; avoid..

And then there's the aspect of server links that you purposely ignored like the fact that they became nothing more than the server that players who were locked out from playing with their guild due to the Full status of the host server transferred to every relink period.  The same Full status that caused a lot of guilds to simply bandwagon to link servers or lower pop host servers to push them up tiers.

Yea, it wasn't completely insular, but it was also not lending itself to a true reshuffling either.  Not a really great example of what it's like to play on a completely new team.

Edited July 29 by Chaba.5410

[Reztek.7805]

18 hours ago, Chaba.5410 said:

Here's an old story about loss of community to compare with "the old system":

The common theme to me in this story is that players were no longer "winning" as easily as they had been, what they were used to.  Kodash started as a Full T1 server before server links started.  It was considered the EU version of YB with their love of arrow carts.  I played briefly a few times on that server too before server links.  After some time with server links and not getting a link because (imho) of restrictions on language linking back then and being an already Full server, a large part of that community bandwagoned to another German server.  Think of it like as if BG in NA had dropped from T1 to last place while remaining Full and no link.  Everybody decided to leave and Kodash never became a host server ever again

Umm? No? As you can see by the first answer in your link, that's not what really happened. At that time Kodash had all the german bandwagoners there are, calling themself fight-guilds ofc. Btw. this also included a lot of drama with Riverside (They "stole" the Riverside community guild before they transferred. For those who understand german and want to read some drama: https://de-forum.guildwars2.com/topic/3989-kodash-mein-beileid/ 😄). When (edit: the next) server links came, Kodash was way too overstacked to get a linking partner. And the first ones to leave were the bandwagoners. Who could have known? 😉

So both communities at that time were destroyed by "fight-guilds", not by "the old system".

Edited July 29 by Reztek.7805

[Mabi black.1824]

13 minutes ago, Reztek.7805 said:

Umm? No? As you can see by the first answer in your link, that's not what really happened. At that time Kodash had all the german bandwagoners there are, calling themself fight-guilds ofc. Btw. this also included a lot of drama with riverside (they "stole" the riverside community guild before they transfered, for those who understand german and want to read some drama: https://de-forum.guildwars2.com/topic/3989-kodash-mein-beileid/ 😄). When server links came, Kodash was way too overstacked to become a linking partner. And the first ones to leave were the bandwagoners. Who could have known? 😉

So both communities at that time were destroyed by "fight-guilds", not by "the old system".

This explanation seems to me more consistent with what was, which is, and I don't know if it will be, WVW EU

[Skub.8240]

18 hours ago, Sheff.4851 said:

Right, and then you do it again. You build a community up every month, meeting new players, and then later those players turn out to be your enemies on other teams, or allies again in subsequent relinks. It makes the whole World vs. World community more connected, rather than isolating people inside of insular servers that don't have a chance to talk to anyone else outside of transfers.

I don't think you can call it a community if it gets wiped back to 0 every month.

[Chaba.5410]

7 hours ago, Reztek.7805 said:

Umm? No? As you can see by the first answer in your link, that's not what really happened. At that time Kodash had all the german bandwagoners there are, calling themself fight-guilds ofc. Btw. this also included a lot of drama with Riverside (They "stole" the Riverside community guild before they transferred. For those who understand german and want to read some drama: https://de-forum.guildwars2.com/topic/3989-kodash-mein-beileid/ 😄). When (edit: the next) server links came, Kodash was way too overstacked to get a linking partner. And the first ones to leave were the bandwagoners. Who could have known? 😉

So both communities at that time were destroyed by "fight-guilds", not by "the old system".

As I can see by the first answer in my link, Kodash was top 3 EU server before those bandwagoners.  You know it was top 3 in EU before server links, right?  That's the Kodash I started with in my story, the one I played on briefly.  And that host remained without a link for over a year after linking was introduced.

Edited July 29 by Chaba.5410

[Reztek.7805]

Yeah i know what you claimed, it just doesn't add up. Server linking was introduced in April 2016. The mass immigration was at the end of 2018 and the post you linked is from ~2019.

So if you want to prove your point that server-linkings killed communities, find a post from 2016. And btw. at some point in time almost every server was top 3 EU.

[Chaba.5410]

8 hours ago, Reztek.7805 said:

So if you want to prove your point that server-linkings killed communities, find a post from 2016. And btw. at some point in time almost every server was top 3 EU.

What you are asking for is proof of a community getting killed when server linking was introduced?  Because what I offered was a story about what happened to a server that started in T1 before server links and then fell to T5 after never getting a server link, which shows the long term impact of server linking.  It's splitting hairs to ignore the long term impact in favor of the immediate impact.  Other EU servers got links and that allowed them to step over Kodash.

Edited July 30 by Chaba.5410

[Cameirus.8407]

On 7/28/2024 at 4:01 PM, Sheff.4851 said:

Right, and then you do it again. You build a community up every month, meeting new players, and then later those players turn out to be your enemies on other teams, or allies again in subsequent relinks. It makes the whole World vs. World community more connected, rather than isolating people inside of insular servers that don't have a chance to talk to anyone else outside of transfers.

No you dont build a community every month.

we had a community, that built up over years, the better part of a decade at least.

you dont build a community in a month, what an absolutely absurd suggestion.

[Playmate.8521]

25 minutes ago, Cameirus.8407 said:

 

we had a community, that built up over years, the better part of a decade at least.

 

Thats it! I moved end 2012 to my server and stayed there until the end. My server wasnt the best - a lot of slackers, trolls and a lot of pugs - but on the other side so many great people, we knew each other and like an example if i called in tc for help they came, because they knew when i write we have trouble. I was years ago one of the top scouts on my server - people sent me gold or items for scouting. I didnt expected anything because i helped my "mates". We had funny chats, karaoke nights etc... People from different guilds with different play styles but all on the same server and only the trolls were complaing about how bad we are^^. 

Now i join the map and 99% strangers and i dont even want to know all this new people because they are soon gone too. Joining my (server)alliance Guild isnt possible because im not active enough anymore to get invited. As a casual player/scout/commander i dont know why i should continue without my stable community i had the last 12 years....

Yes bandwaggoners were a problem but why not just changing how often people can move servers? Like once a year or anything like that? Why not alliances like we had in GW1 - collecting kurzick/luxon points to hold cities. An Alliance in GW1 was 8 guilds with an alliance chat. I really dont get what this has to do with allys. Its just one big guild - not more not less. Servers have now different names - wow... not. 

[RisingDawn.5796]

9 minutes ago, Playmate.8521 said:

Thats it! I moved end 2012 to my server and stayed there until the end. My server wasnt the best - a lot of slackers, trolls and a lot of pugs - but on the other side so many great people, we knew each other and like an example if i called in tc for help they came, because they knew when i write we have trouble. I was years ago one of the top scouts on my server - people sent me gold or items for scouting. I didnt expected anything because i helped my "mates". We had funny chats, karaoke nights etc... People from different guilds with different play styles but all on the same server and only the trolls were complaing about how bad we are^^. 

Now i join the map and 99% strangers and i dont even want to know all this new people because they are soon gone too. Joining my (server)alliance Guild isnt possible because im not active enough anymore to get invited. As a casual player/scout/commander i dont know why i should continue without my stable community i had the last 12 years....

Yes bandwaggoners were a problem but why not just changing how often people can move servers? Like once a year or anything like that? Why not alliances like we had in GW1 - collecting kurzick/luxon points to hold cities. An Alliance in GW1 was 8 guilds with an alliance chat. I really dont get what this has to do with allys. Its just one big guild - not more not less. Servers have now different names - wow... not. 

I was there 10 years ago when they had fun events, guilds coordinating, organising things, scouting maps before the team chat feature and the second WvW Tournament.

Sadly drama happened quite often, so players and guilds, transferred off quite often leaving an unrecognisable community having to rebuild constantly, even before players in numbers could transfer so easily to a link server and start or join another wvw server community.

[Cherazade.4170]

Communities broke apart even before WR. Like my server. I loved my server and the community, had fun times in chat, etc. Drama was what broke it all apart after 2-3 years, and bandwagoners. At least now, there will be less bandwagoners. But drama will always exist, in any community.