Willbender Need NERF in Pvp

[Codename T.2847]

On 8/2/2024 at 3:35 AM, Zekent.3652 said:

WvW*

PvP willy is fine.

I agree, in WvW it is super AIDS compared to PvP, where DH is still superior imo

Edited August 5 by Codename T.2847

[Flowki.7194]

15 hours ago, Kuya.6495 said:

And there are builds that are represented in both ranked and MATs such as spellbreaker, DD/Specter/Deadeye and harb/reaper. 

So why complain about a build that only matters in ranked when you have builds that are better in every scenario?

Becuase I play ranked, so I speak from that perspective? Which is aparently not allowed coz MATs. By your logic, a spec could be completely broken/toxic in the setting of sPVP <where a lot of people play>, and it wouldnt matter becuase it wasnt on a MAT winning team. All I can say, is that MAT support meta NEVER EVER reflected support representation/performance in sPVP, which demonstrates the absurdity of applying MAT balance to sPVP.

 

13 hours ago, Saiyan.1704 said:

Have you looked up the players making these QQ posts? Gold 2, Gold 3, and certainly anything above Plat 1, are not making forum posts about "OP Willbenders" in pvp.

Why are we entertaining this and every other thread that was made by a low-skilled player, who can't even win unranked games?

Becuase sPVP is a mode that alot of people play, and the wide MMR ontop of specs that very clearly have an easier time in that setting, creates an aweful environment. What is the solotion, everybody just stops playing sPVP? Since when I made a post about reducing the MMR range it was blown out of the water.. and when you mention the problems of all these lower effort/risk specs having higher impact within the current sPVP system, that gets blown out the water too?

 

So maybe all the plats should just admit it. They want the plat badge, and don't care what low risk/effort spec they need to play, and farm low golds to get it? At-least I would have more respect for the average plat if they would admit what they are, shameless.

 

10 hours ago, Myror.7521 said:

Huh? Willbender is not even close a problem. It is only a problem when you do not know how to play against it .... which is a (gues what) player skill issue and not a "this is OP" issue. 

Also to answer @Flowki.7194 u know why necr/warr/guard are played by worse Players (well most of the time). Simply cause they are easy to learn how to get played. This does not mean that they are easy to master tho (since they are pretty telegraphed and skill Limited *cough* warr is melee only *cough* they are fairly easy to counter play at least when you know how)

 

I can apply that exact same argument to vindi, and you would refute it becuase it is meta. As soon as vindi gets nerfed in damage, and out of meta, suddenly the complaints will stop and it will be "just dodge hammer 2 man its so easy.. vindi doesn't even have good stab just CC it man, so easy, hammer/gs 5 are so broadcast man.. just dodge, so easy man". The problem is this playerbase is obssesed with conflating meta status with healthy game mechanics.. and their is NOTHING healthy about multiple WBs f3 jumping, where nion every spec has no ability to counter pressure it what so ever.. unless they have unblockables (and likely still needing their own block-attacks to win that dps race). When I say every spec, Im also refering to the 30+ specs that don't ever see the light of day, thats not just WB/DH's fault, but they play their part.. their mechanics are oppressive af. Front loaded specs are toxic by design, becuase there is simply less reliance on dodge while applying the damage.

 

There is more mechanical counter play involved with fighting vindi, there is next to no counter play in fighting WB.. it is given the front foot 100% of the time just for existing, unless you have unblockables. Any spec that is reliably given the front foot with next to no ability to counter pressure is an aweful spec.. it eliminates the function of having to dodge while laying down damage.

 

Ele also took this path now with double arcane shields, which allows it to hold W and smash DPS keys just like a WB/Virt and other specs laced with block-invuln while attacks. Part of the reason I liked to play power scepter/dagger ele was that you had to get up close to finish with firebrab>FA expolsion, that mean timing dodges between this burst sequence. Now, with double arcane shield that is much easier, no real need to look out for what to dodge, just incorperate double arcane into your rotation and keep nuking. Obviously ele is not meta, but it doesnt make that chaining of arcane shield any less kitten. Im talking mechanics here, while it seems you are only talking meta.

 

Edited August 5 by Flowki.7194

[Saiyan.1704]

1 hour ago, Flowki.7194 said:

Becuase sPVP is a mode that alot of people play, and the wide MMR ontop of specs that very clearly have an easier time in that setting, creates an aweful environment. What is the solotion, everybody just stops playing sPVP? Since when I made a post about reducing the MMR range it was blown out of the water..

If I had to choose whether or not to add an additional 30 minute queue timer for everyone that is Gold2 through Plat2+, OR to invest resources on a new game mode that attempts to teach these newbie players how to use a mouse and keyboard, I'd pick the latter.

 

[jdawgie.1835]

On 8/1/2024 at 8:41 AM, Saiyan.1704 said:

I can't help but wonder if these unranked pro gamers ran into me and think WB is OP lol.

These posts are from our ques this weekend LMFAO. 

[Flowki.7194]

44 minutes ago, Saiyan.1704 said:

If I had to choose whether or not to add an additional 30 minute queue timer for everyone that is Gold2 through Plat2+, OR to invest resources on a new game mode that attempts to teach these newbie players how to use a mouse and keyboard, I'd pick the latter.

 

Yet you are still placing p2s in the same game as g1s, and that is no uncommon at all, ive been in g1, g2, and g3 for long enough periods to see the shocking state of the MMR. The new game mode will not adress the skill gap, not at all, it is relative to time spent practicing, which not everybody has AKA, plats will continually farm golds. How long do you think an aspiring new player in this game can tolerate being farmed by p1/2s? knowing they will never spend enough time in the game to reach that skill level, but will always be put in games with players of that skill level.

 

There is no justification for it, and quite frankly, reducing the MMR range will be benefitial for the retention of players, although it might see some initial increased q times until the sPVP base incrases (on account of it not being a duo plat farm fest nymore). Everybody suggesting a tighter MMR will lead to 20+ minutes Ques are talking out of their kitten, they don't know that at all.. and I would firmly bet that across silver/gold, it would be <5 min ques on peak, there are plenty of silver/golds, and newer players will join those brackets also.

 

When games are seen as more fair by nature, then you have to consider how many people from pve/WvW might start venturing over to sPVP again. Plats are the only ones not wanting this, becuase I think they know their will be an initial increase in plat Q time.. but more to the real side of it, they know they can't off peak farm golds any more, and they might not actually sit in plat once put in games surrounded by other plats. I firmly beleive that, the average person against reduced MMR range are only concerned about their plat rating, fk everybody else.

Edited August 5 by Flowki.7194

[arazoth.7290]

5 minutes ago, Flowki.7194 said:

Yet you are still placing p2s in the same game as g1s, and that is no uncommon at all, ive been in g1, g2, and g3 for long enough periods to see the shocking state of the MMR. The new game mode will not adress the skill gap, not at all, it is relative to time spent practicing, which not everybody has AKA, plats will continually farm golds. How long do you think an aspiring new player in this game can tolerate being farmed by p1/2s? knowing they will never spend enough time in the game to reach that skill level, but will always be put in games with players of that skill level.

 

There is no justification for it, and quite frankly, reducing the MMR range will be benefitial for the retention of players, although it might see some initial increased q times until the sPVP base incrases (on account of it not being a duo plat farm fest nymore). Everybody suggesting a tighter MMR will lead to 20+ minutes Ques are talking out of their kitten, they don't know that at all.. and I would firmly bet that across silver/gold, it would be <5 min ques on peak, there are plenty of silver/golds, and newer players will join those brackets also.

 

When games are seen as more fair by nature, then you have to consider how many people from pve/WvW might start venturing over to sPVP again. Plats are the only ones not wanting this, becuase I think they know their will be an initial increase in plat Q time.. but more to the real side of it, they know they can't off peak farm golds any more, and they might not actually sit in plat once put in games surrounded by other plats. I firmly beleive that, the average person against reduced MMR range are only concerned about their plat rating, fk everybody else.

read my message in game...

[Flowki.7194]

3 minutes ago, arazoth.7290 said:

read my message in game...

You were dueling, like an off peak scrub 😜 

[Endo.1652]

18 hours ago, Flowki.7194 said:

The actual <realistic> sPVP meta is very clearly reaper-wb/dh-SPB-DDthief.. and golds are like 3/4 of the playerbase, so ignore those players at the perel of the games survival. High level mat representation reflects sPVP in no way what so ever, completely different settings. Skill floor matters more in sPVP, skill ceiling matters more in MATs, in terms of balance/true meta. WB-thief are harder than reaper sure, but they are crutched on lower risk mechanics than other roamers, which effectively lowers the skill floor. If any WB/thief wants to contest that, go and play herald for a month.

Okay why would you play herald when you can play vindi? How does this prove your point?

I think balance needs to consider both levels of play. Mid tier and high tier. Structured is just as important as ranked is. If anything structured gameplay like ATs is what influences a lot of the meta. After you see certain classes pop off youll see a flood of those specs in ranked. 

You saying to 100% ignore the high end meta because you are annoyed some random golds are getting cheap kills on willbender (then probably dying 20 secs later) is kind of funny.

[Flowki.7194]

3 hours ago, Endo.1652 said:

Okay why would you play herald when you can play vindi? How does this prove your point?

I think balance needs to consider both levels of play. Mid tier and high tier. Structured is just as important as ranked is. If anything structured gameplay like ATs is what influences a lot of the meta. After you see certain classes pop off youll see a flood of those specs in ranked. 

You saying to 100% ignore the high end meta because you are annoyed some random golds are getting cheap kills on willbender (then probably dying 20 secs later) is kind of funny.

 

Why would you play WB when you could play herald? They are both the exact same role, so why is WB 100>1 herald?

 

Why would you play WB when you could play vindi? They are both VERY similar roles, and vindi is better right? yet WB 20> 1 vindi?

 

 

I too think that balance needs to consider mid level play, and the type of representations above are exactly why. You see the thing you are missing is that not everybody who plays vindi/herald are good, and at silver/low gold, it is ABSOLUTELY clear that both of those specs are very punishing, which directly explains there low representation, despite one of them being meta. So, if you are an average level player who wants to play herald?... prepare to get farmed, over, and over, and over, and over, and over. What you fail to see, is that the average gold level herald dies 20 seconds BEFORE he was going to get a kill 😜 

 

All specs should have a high enough skill floor/risk element so that there are no vastly over perfoming crutch specs, which dominate the representation.

Edited August 5 by Flowki.7194

[Myror.7521]

@Flowki.7194 well vindi is not easy to play. You need to time your dodges pretty good to make it good sustaining. Where it indeed is too good is its dmg with nearly every single weapon skill striking for 6k+ ^^ plus every Dodge 3k+ ...,.. the dmg is too good rn an need a look at

[Gotejjeken.1267]

On 8/4/2024 at 10:23 PM, Saiyan.1704 said:

Have you looked up the players making these QQ posts? Gold 2, Gold 3, and certainly anything above Plat 1, are not making forum posts about "OP Willbenders" in pvp.

True, past g2 it's the matchmaker that becomes OP.  

But for WB, I feel it's because people cannot handle front loaded burst specs.  Ranger has had a few of them, and each time nerfed because no one wants to wait and counter, they want to facetank and counter, which you can't do against a heavy hitting burst spec.  

I dislike nerfing WB because that means buffing DH and DH just has degen mechanics, which isn't fun to play against.  Then you have the hipsters that play core DPS or FB, which is like 4 people. 

People need to understand a burst DPS spec needs to exist or you are going to just buff the degen specs.  Again, as example with ranger, they nerf burst untamed and soulbeast only to buff bunny thumper untamed and the 4 condi druids left.  So what do they do? Introduce spear, which is going to circle back around to burst specs, but probably more degen now because they added addtional stealth mechanics to it.  

Same probably holds true for the other specs, it's a cycle...players complain about burst, so they buff degen mechanics to allow people to survive longer, then people complain about that, because if you were getting wrecked by a good player with a burst spec you are going to be slaughtered by same player on a degen one.  And it cycles on and on...

[Flowki.7194]

11 hours ago, Myror.7521 said:

vindi is not easy to play. You need to time your dodges pretty good to make it good sustaining.

Which is why any nerfs need to be very modest, so that the spec remains vaible at mid play. It is already very rare to see a vindi at all, and even more rare to see a decent vindi, which is normally some off peak duo. At this point, it misght aswell be accepted that WB is sPVP meta, not vindi. I say that fully serious, since it is dominantly more likely the average sPVP game will have WBs in them, who are having a larger impact on your overall games/ratings, than that rare time you see a good vindi.

 

10 hours ago, Gotejjeken.1267 said:

no one wants to wait and counter

Why would anybody enjoy fighting a spec that can kill you in <5 seconds, while that very spec is mechanically exempt (in most cases) from being a <10 second kill? Front loaded jump specs are a crutch.

Edited August 6 by Flowki.7194

[Gotejjeken.1267]

2 hours ago, Flowki.7194 said:

Why would anybody enjoy fighting a spec that can kill you in <5 seconds, while that very spec is mechanically exempt (in most cases) from being a <10 second kill? Front loaded jump specs are a crutch.

To me, a 10s kill is better than a good player on a degen spec which is practically unkillable.  As in, I personally would rather fight Sayian on WB then grim on a reaper.  

Again though, a lot of times it isn't about the kill--it's forcing a roamer/burst spec to constantly roam and get nothing done.  If you nerf the roamer so they can't maybe kill a stray player running out of spawn or do a +1, then you are buffing the degen where they just stand on or near a node perma contesting it because it takes 2+ people to bring them down.  

[Flowki.7194]

2 minutes ago, Gotejjeken.1267 said:

To me, a 10s kill is better than a good player on a degen spec which is practically unkillable.  As in, I personally would rather fight Sayian on WB then grim on a reaper.  

Again though, a lot of times it isn't about the kill--it's forcing a roamer/burst spec to constantly roam and get nothing done.  If you nerf the roamer so they can't maybe kill a stray player running out of spawn or do a +1, then you are buffing the degen where they just stand on or near a node perma contesting it because it takes 2+ people to bring them down.  

Only full support should require a 2v1, as compensation for not being able to defend itself with dps. Any other specs should not be requiring a 2v1 I completely agree. However, that does not justify front loaded specs. Both herald and vindi are good examples of decent dps that has counter pressure options from start to finish of the engagement (lets put aside vindi deathdrop). Specs don't have to be front loaded to do there thing, but Anet seems to push this across multiple specs. The problem is that to "attempt" to balance these specs, they are made weak af on the back end, which higher level players can exploit "just kite the WB" for example.

 

That is why front loaded specs are an unhealthy crutch for all involved. A crutch spec will give person A an unfair advantedge over person B at lower/mid skill levels. However, spec B will farm spec A at high skill level. The issue is that not all "player B's" will reach high skill level, so are continuosly subjected to player A crutch spec advantedge. Further than that, player A's who just love the spec, and do get to higher level, then don't get rewarded properly for their dedication, becuase now they get mechanically exposed, and become the farmed.

 

Down with the crutch specs 😜 

[Myror.7521]

@Flowki.7194 nah thats not true i have at least 2 up to 4 vindis each matchup ^^ even spellbreaker is rn more rare than vindicators ....... well at least in my matchups xD

[WingSwipe.3084]

15 hours ago, Gotejjeken.1267 said:

True, past g2 it's the matchmaker that becomes OP.  

But for WB, I feel it's because people cannot handle front loaded burst specs.  Ranger has had a few of them, and each time nerfed because no one wants to wait and counter, they want to facetank and counter, which you can't do against a heavy hitting burst spec.  

I dislike nerfing WB because that means buffing DH and DH just has degen mechanics, which isn't fun to play against.  Then you have the hipsters that play core DPS or FB, which is like 4 people. 

People need to understand a burst DPS spec needs to exist or you are going to just buff the degen specs.  Again, as example with ranger, they nerf burst untamed and soulbeast only to buff bunny thumper untamed and the 4 condi druids left.  So what do they do? Introduce spear, which is going to circle back around to burst specs, but probably more degen now because they added addtional stealth mechanics to it.  

Same probably holds true for the other specs, it's a cycle...players complain about burst, so they buff degen mechanics to allow people to survive longer, then people complain about that, because if you were getting wrecked by a good player with a burst spec you are going to be slaughtered by same player on a degen one.  And it cycles on and on...

In this situation though, a WB can jump on you from out of LOS will full boons and you have to pray your "You cant touch me for 5 seconds" skill is ready to go.

The fact that you have to kite a WB for the duration of its burst where you really cant do anything to avoid it is an issue. You should be able to fight back when someone jumps on you. 

Id be fine with just reducing the boon generation that WB can achive, being able to stun someone when they hard engage means there is counterplay exists. Same issue exists with theif and the degenerate system that is stealth.

[Flowki.7194]

1 hour ago, Myror.7521 said:

@Flowki.7194 nah thats not true i have at least 2 up to 4 vindis each matchup ^^ even spellbreaker is rn more rare than vindicators ....... well at least in my matchups xD

Ive played almost 400 games this season, from g1 to g3 on and off peak, so plenty of plats in games, and thats not what I have seen. Maybe if you are p1 you see more p2+ so more vindis? sure I can accept that, but that is such a small % of the population, and 100% not representitve of the mass majority of spec rep.

 

Last game; 4x DHs.. give me 4 p1 vindis any day.

Edited August 6 by Flowki.7194

[arazoth.7290]

11 hours ago, Myror.7521 said:

@Flowki.7194 nah thats not true i have at least 2 up to 4 vindis each matchup ^^ even spellbreaker is rn more rare than vindicators ....... well at least in my matchups xD

The other way still for me too, more spb's😅. And the once that are matched up 9/10, litarly keep fighting inside my aoe's 🤦

[arazoth.7290]

10 hours ago, Flowki.7194 said:

Maybe if you are p1 you see more p2+ so more vindis? 

1 minute ago, arazoth.7290 said:

The other way still for me too, more spb's😅. And the once that are matched up 9/10, litarly keep fighting inside my aoe's 🤦

 

nope 

[arazoth.7290]

Imo, the meta very likely is going to shift with minimal class patch changes with these new weapons anyway

[Flowki.7194]

19 hours ago, WingSwipe.3084 said:

In this situation though, a WB can jump on you from out of LOS will full boons and you have to pray your "You cant touch me for 5 seconds" skill is ready to go.

The fact that you have to kite a WB for the duration of its burst where you really cant do anything to avoid it is an issue. You should be able to fight back when someone jumps on you. 

Id be fine with just reducing the boon generation that WB can achive, being able to stun someone when they hard engage means there is counterplay exists. Same issue exists with theif and the degenerate system that is stealth.

 

There are so many times I have fully jumped an oblivious player on a front loaded spec, like virt/wb, but they press 1 button, and INSTATNLY get off the back foot, and onto the front foot, garunteed. Takes a special kind of cookie to defend that type of gameplay.. becuase when they jump you? Youre on the backfoot garunteed.. for >10 seconds.

Edited August 7 by Flowki.7194

[Arken.3725]

Flowki is most definitely heavily biased here.  It's written in every post.  I'm all for opinions but actually basing them upon fact is what moves a conversation forward and yet....I don't see it from him.  

Bring actual facts to this, not your made-up experiences.  I gave multiple examples from the highest form of play (mAT) that ACTUALLY happened with video evidence and you've proved nothing.

If something is heavily utilized in the mAT, it'll absolutely stomp in ranked, this is why It's taken.  

[WingSwipe.3084]

It wont get nerfed.

Anet employees also clearly play the profession more then others and have passionate devs for it so im calling a bit of bias here.

Guardian players are used to their profession having training wheels that if we removed said wheels they'd probably abandon the profession in protest of "unfair nerfs".

That being said, im also biased because I like Warrior as a profession and everything other then Spellbreaker (which needs to be giga nerfed, especially for upcoming warrior spear) is just left to languish perpetually.

[Ferus.3165]

18 minutes ago, WingSwipe.3084 said:

It wont get nerfed.

obv lol. Wb is far from being meta and the only thing it's really good at is bashing noobs. That's why there are so many complains about it. This thread is a testimony of that. Just look at your comment, it's just circlejerk complaining about something that you cannot even put to words. Why is wb or guardian op in your opinion? If you want to discuss something then bring some real arguments.

[WingSwipe.3084]

20 minutes ago, Ferus.3165 said:

obv lol. Wb is far from being meta and the only thing it's really good at is bashing noobs. That's why there are so many complains about it. This thread is a testimony of that. Just look at your comment, it's just circlejerk complaining about something that you cannot even put to words. Why is wb or guardian op in your opinion? If you want to discuss something then bring some real arguments.

We've gone through this so many times I found repeating it quite superfluous, but ill do it again since you appear to be new here. 

The reasoning as to why Willbender and guardian in general is disgusting to fight is the disturbingly overturned boon generation the profession has.

In the case of Willbender, it can engage via blink from outside LOS into a combo you have to just try to survive. There is very little counterplay when you get engaged on and your opponent has every boon on them so you cant blind, stun, apply weakness or disengage due to the opponent having perma swiftness.

It has the engage potential and damage of theif with the defense potential of core guardian, there is no balance between offence and defence. The only way to reliably kill it is via unblockable attacks, which you usually have to sacrifice into a signet for, drastically reducing your combat effectiveness against anything else, or via boon rip/boon corrupt which have both gotten nerfed.

Its the bottom of the barrel skillfloor elite spec you can just take into PvP without much effort and see great results, results that just get better the better you get at the profession.

I see more Willbender then Vindis at a scale of 10/1, which should say something for itself.

I have stated my bias from the start, yours seems pretty obvious even if you dont state it out loud.