Could we get an unblockable sigil?

[Azure The Heartless.3261]

12 minutes ago, JusticeRetroHunter.7684 said:

Question: would you use or not use this relic if it existed

question is for anyone to answer.

No, and I'll be upset when people take it to troll people on their team by removing defensive skills and half their mitigation rating from them.

Rule one of mmos is don't allow randos on a team to have direct control over how their teammates play if  the control they have can be leveraged in a negative way.  People can and will be jerkasses.

Edited August 14 by Azure The Heartless.3261

[Flowki.7194]

57 minutes ago, Azure The Heartless.3261 said:

Relic of the Flame Ram: when your attack is blocked, gain one token.  At 3 tokens, your attacks become unblockable for 5 seconds, then this relic goes on cd for 15 seconds. 

 

 

So now you can die to newbs spewing attacks into your blocks? 😜 

 

55 minutes ago, JusticeRetroHunter.7684 said:

Question: would you use or not use this relic if it existed

question is for anyone to answer.

 

I would not use it, even as a person who is decent at support roles. If one enemy has a lot of blocks, and the other three dont, and I give my team this kitten.. they now take double the damage from the other 3 dps, just to do damage to 1 person <guess whos group instantly wipes to cleave>

 

Next, are players who are not so good at group fighting, or selfishly going in for their own kill, basically debuffing any team mates from the ability to stealth, using their blocks, and then making them take double dmg.

 

Next, griefers/traders.. sure fine way to wipe teams, over and over and over and over.

 

If I had team mates using this relic, I'd keep well away from them, which is not exactly a good plan when I play mostly group fight/support type roles. They don't get to decide when I can block, and when I can take 2x damage?.. that right there requires full premade and vocal communication, far from what sPVP is.

 

Edited August 14 by Flowki.7194

[Azure The Heartless.3261]

56 minutes ago, Flowki.7194 said:

So now you can die to newbs spewing attacks into your blocks? 😜 

I think I can block 3 attacks then avoid a few for 5 seconds by kiting, especially if the the person about to become unblockable is telegraphed through the tokens on hotbar.

Players spew blocks already, a vibe check to make sure their brain isn't cabbage every so often seems fine to me 🤷‍♀️

[JusticeRetroHunter.7684]

8 hours ago, Flowki.7194 said:

I would not use it, even as a person who is decent at support roles. If one enemy has a lot of blocks, and the other three dont, and I give my team this kitten.. they now take double the damage from the other 3 dps, just to do damage to 1 person <guess whos group instantly wipes to cleave>

doesn't this make it...balanced then? the more the other team has people who block, the more reasonable it is to take this relic to negate their block, at the cost of receiving damage...which therefor incentivizes enemy team to not play builds that have blocks but damage builds (therefor giving you less incentive to bring the relic...argument continues in infinitum...)

the griefing part i understand though and i figured that. i just wanted to see what the response would be. 

single player varient?

Edited August 14 by JusticeRetroHunter.7684

[Flowki.7194]

22 hours ago, Azure The Heartless.3261 said:

I think I can block 3 attacks then avoid a few for 5 seconds by kiting, especially if the the person about to become unblockable is telegraphed through the tokens on hotbar.

Players spew blocks already, a vibe check to make sure their brain isn't cabbage every so often seems fine to me 🤷‍♀️

The answer for too many blocks is to reduce block access/duration on the specific specs that have too much, not to spam more unblockables so that specs with a healthy amount of blocks are now redundent becuase of a single relic. Adding more unblockables is short sighted.

 

The game is getting too black and white as it is. Take this exemple, I was dueling a ranger, and I was not using demonqueen. I could not break his tank at all, not even getting him below 80%. So at that point, no amount of skill on my part mattered. I swapped to demon queen, exact same build, exact same duel playsyle... and now broke his tank and won every duel. No amount of skill on his part could now change that. So who is the most skilled here? me or him? I can't call it... when it litterally comes down to a fking single relic. That is how you know there are too many brainded elements in the game.. brainded sustain, brainded amounts of CC, etc etc etc etc. Adding more brainded spam of unblockables? cmon man. I can't beat an SPB becuase of blocks, equip a single relic, now he can't beat me ever? Its fking kitten to be trying to balance games like this.

 

I can tell you hevent even thought it out. A cata could equip relentless unblockable, use that during first fire nuke +arcane shield=blcoks/stab, then celerity back into full fire burst, another arcane shield=blocks/stab and more unblockables? Name any spec that relys on blocks that is not going to be hard oppressed by that.. if it isnt, bingo.. those are the specs that have too much blocking, which is more likely in combination with immune/0 0 0

 

14 hours ago, JusticeRetroHunter.7684 said:

doesn't this make it...balanced then? the more the other team has people who block, the more reasonable it is to take this relic to negate their block, at the cost of receiving damage...which therefor incentivizes enemy team to not play builds that have blocks but damage builds (therefor giving you less incentive to bring the relic...argument continues in infinitum...)

the griefing part i understand though and i figured that. i just wanted to see what the response would be. 

single player varient?

Why on earth should you get to choose when to make my blocks redundent, while at the same time making me take 2x damage? If you cannot see how this will get so many team mates killed through its noob use, accidental missuse, or griefing use.. then I cannot help you.

 

There is a relic in the game (search it I forget), that allows you to share 50% of the damage from a recently healed team mate, something like that. Take that relic, apply it while in a group fight, make sure you are near team mate/cleave, and see how fast you die from the direct/indirect cleave. Ive used that relic, I know. That is not even scratching the surface of how fast you and your team will die with your proposed relic, multiple specs already do 8-12k aoe crits.. either of those values at double damage will 1 shot multiple people at the same time.

 

Now if you say "they shouldnt stand so close" then wtf is the point of your relic? when it needs <240? to be used. If you widen the range, it just makes it even easier to debuff team mates, and make them 1 shots. Some random thief/wb team mate steals/f3s into a group fight, then when taking massive cleave damage, they panic and smash renew/spinny theif ability... and now any surrounding team mates take double damage and can't block? Youre having a giggle arent you? 😜 

Edited August 15 by Flowki.7194

[Azure The Heartless.3261]

58 minutes ago, Flowki.7194 said:

The answer for too many blocks is to reduce block access/duration on the specific specs that have too much, not to spam more unblockables so that specs with a healthy amount of blocks are now redundent becuase of a single relic. Adding more unblockables is short sighted.

The game is getting too black and white as it is. Take this exemple, I was dueling a ranger, and I was not using demonqueen. I could not break his tank at all, not even getting him below 80%. So at that point, no amount of skill on my part mattered. I swapped to demon queen, exact same build, exact same duel playsyle... and now broke his tank and won every duel. No amount of skill on his part could now change that. So who is the most skilled here? me or him? I can't call it... when it litterally comes down to a fking single relic. That is how you know there are too many brainded elements in the game.. brainded sustain, brainded amounts of CC, etc etc etc etc. Adding more brainded spam of unblockables? cmon man. I can't beat an SPB becuase of blocks, equip a single relic, now he can't beat me ever? Its fking kitten to be trying to balance games like this.

I can tell you hevent even thought it out. A cata could equip relentless unblockable, use that during first fire nuke +arcane shield=blcoks/stab, then celerity back into full fire burst, another arcane shield=blocks/stab and more unblockables? Name any spec that relys on blocks that is not going to be hard oppressed by that.. if it isnt, bingo.. those are the specs that have too much blocking, which is more likely in combination with immune/0 0 0

You're correct in assuming I didnt think it out. 

My sole focus was thinking of a way unblockable could be packaged in a relic that makes the relic worth taking without being unavoidable or unmitigatable, not whether the relic's addition would be healthy for the game generally. 😗

Edited August 15 by Azure The Heartless.3261

[Flowki.7194]

33 minutes ago, Azure The Heartless.3261 said:

You're correct in assuming I didnt think it out. 

My sole focus was thinking of a way unblockable could be packaged in a relic that makes the relic worth taking without being unavoidable or unmitigatable, not whether the relic's addition would be healthy for the game generally. 😗

Your idea is better than that other relic, but it would still just reward people for spewing attacks into blocks, and there are quite a few single abilitys that already have the unblockable mechanic, which would make some of those specs even worse against specs that need blocks.

 

You know, when I fight other revs using shiro, they only have 2 stack of unblockables, but that is more than enough for them to fk me over if they save it for when I shield 5. Not all do, but decent ones definately, if on CD. Thats just a 2 stack that is not straight forward to use given CD/energy costs. Now you give them same players an unblockable proc, when I use shield for GS5, they get unblockables, im dead.. or I can no longer use shield on anything that ticks/multi hits. Other specs like SLB already destroy me if running unblockables, if they save it for shield. I littearlly have to just run away from a good SLB as is, track damage is high, stealth jumps are hard to play around, and unblockables as soon as you go into shield. Lets not give them unblockable procs from track damage, becuase then they may be able to afford an extra utility slot, like unblockable traps 😜

Edited August 15 by Flowki.7194

[bq pd.2148]

1 hour ago, Flowki.7194 said:

You know, when I fight other revs using shiro, they only have 2 stack of unblockables, but that is more than enough for them to fk me over if they save it for when I shield 5. Not all do, but decent ones definately, if on CD. Thats just a 2 stack that is not straight forward to use given CD/energy costs. Now you give them same players an unblockable proc, when I use shield for GS5, they get unblockables, im dead.. or I can no longer use shield on anything that ticks/multi hits. Other specs like SLB already destroy me if running unblockables, if they save it for shield. I littearlly have to just run away from a good SLB as is, track damage is high, stealth jumps are hard to play around, and unblockables as soon as you go into shield. Lets not give them unblockable procs from track damage, becuase then they may be able to afford an extra utility slot, like unblockable traps 😜

i do find it interesting that this thread is mostly about actual blocks and barely anything about projectile denials.

full blocks like in your rev build really feel bad when unblockables are abundant as your blocks are rare, on the other side we have some builds with very abundant projectile denial to the point where projectiles basically dont matter and here more frequent unblockables would be welcome.

personally i think unblockable being the mode to bypass projectile denial is the problem here to balance its availability. IMO it would be better if unblockables were only to bypass full blocks and balanced in availability accordingly, while reducing the effectiveness of projectile hate on a base level.
for example have projectile absorbs only reduce projectile damage/condition duration + negate hard CC from them and reduce the availability or reflects like magnet aura: reflect 1 projectile and then act as an absorb skill.

Edited August 15 by bq pd.2148
deleted wrong part of the quote

[Zekent.3652]

If OP is a warrior: unblockable dagger burst is not enough, bro wants to have signet of might without signet of might

If OP is a necro: unblockable chill, fear and marks are not enough for them

if OP is a thief: bro just miss the old steal

if OP is a guard: spamming aegis is fun, except when others do

[arazoth.7290]

6 minutes ago, Zekent.3652 said:

If OP is a warrior: unblockable dagger burst is not enough, bro wants to have signet of might without signet of might

If OP is a necro: unblockable chill, fear and marks are not enough for them

if OP is a thief: bro just miss the old steal

if OP is a guard: spamming aegis is fun, except when others do

I thought OP was a ranger, untamed

[JusticeRetroHunter.7684]

5 hours ago, Flowki.7194 said:

The answer for too many blocks is to reduce block access/duration on the specific specs that have too much, not to spam more unblockables so that specs with a healthy amount of blocks are now redundent becuase of a single relic.

You missed the point though. You can’t just spam unblockables, because then you’d also be spamming taking double damage (and not being able to block yourself) someone who isn’t a build based on blocks (a damage build) is going to take advantage of that, therefor reducing the number of players taking block based builds in the metagame.

having this sort of tradeoff reduces spam because one now has to think about when they should be using their skills (for this relic example the elite skill)

About Lhyr relic: that is also the point of this relic. It’s a self regulating balanced relic…where in order to take it requires you to be a tanky boy and able to heal yourself, otherwise you’ll probably die from redirected damage. If it didn’t have this tradeoff effect it would be way overpowered (near perms 50% damage reduction for the whole team)

I’ve played Lhyr’s builds effectively. Often times it means you have to make smarter decisions about how many players you engage with and picking more self defense skills and attributes in your build. over others…like say damage. effects like these lead to higher specialization.

 

 

Edited August 15 by JusticeRetroHunter.7684

[Kuya.6495]

On 8/14/2024 at 7:03 AM, CafPow.1542 said:

This would hard counter guardians and that’s a big NoNo. 

As long as it comes with an HP increase, I'm game

[CafPow.1542]

Just now, Kuya.6495 said:

As long as it comes with an HP increase, I'm game

Block > HP tho. But okay.

[Kuya.6495]

8 minutes ago, CafPow.1542 said:

Block > HP tho. But okay.

Obviously but what I'm saying is if everyone is so butt blasted about guardians breathing, then I'm sure guardian mains can tolerate either a reduction to blocks or an increase in availability of unblockables if they got higher hp in return.

Guards love their blocks but they probably hate having low HP even more.

[Flowki.7194]

4 hours ago, bq pd.2148 said:

i do find it interesting that this thread is mostly about actual blocks and barely anything about projectile denials.

full blocks like in your rev build really feel bad when unblockables are abundant as your blocks are rare, on the other side we have some builds with very abundant projectile denial to the point where projectiles basically dont matter and here more frequent unblockables would be welcome.

personally i think unblockable being the mode to bypass projectile denial is the problem here to balance its availability. IMO it would be better if unblockables were only to bypass full blocks and balanced in availability accordingly, while reducing the effectiveness of projectile hate on a base level.
for example have projectile absorbs only reduce projectile damage/condition duration + negate hard CC from them and reduce the availability or reflects like magnet aura: reflect 1 projectile and then act as an absorb skill.

I use to play a lot of support tempest and hated the team wide mag auras, they are too casual, but you litterally had to use them, and mostly as a function of giving the heal/protection to team mates. That said, things like ranger LB are kinde toxic with 1500-1900? range.. so if they were to reduce the amount of projectile hate, then LB needs to take a range cap nerf, becuase 1500 is more than enough. That is in anticipation for if LB ever became viable.. could you imagine 2 or 3x LB rangers on a team, sitting at 1700 most of the time, with next to no counter coz they also have unblockables?

 

I have also played rev shortbow for a long time, and tbh I don't find projectile hate to be near as much a problem as block-immune-000 spam. The difference with projectile hate is that most specs can basically swap weapons now, negating its effect. I see a tempest overloading earth, I spam all my shortbow dps while he's overloading, then swap to mace just before it lands. Similarly I can swap to mace when a vindi is on hammer 4, but obviosuly thats a lot more of a risk for hammer 2, but these are still options to pressure when they thought they were good. If a WB F3 jumps, and I don't have unblockables, I can't do kitten.. just run or block.

Edited August 15 by Flowki.7194

[CafPow.1542]

8 hours ago, Kuya.6495 said:

Obviously but what I'm saying is if everyone is so butt blasted about guardians breathing, then I'm sure guardian mains can tolerate either a reduction to blocks or an increase in availability of unblockables if they got higher hp in return.

Guards love their blocks but they probably hate having low HP even more.

Sure yeah. They also should have blocks. I just don’t know if it has to be so much but yeah.

[maxwelgm.4315]

TL;DR of thread: offloading all kinds of skill effects into relics is probably not the best way to balance classes, in comparison to...balancing the classes

[Trevor Boyer.6524]

14 hours ago, JusticeRetroHunter.7684 said:

I’ve played Lhyr’s builds effectively.

It was actually a good balanced option before they changed it.

The new patching they tossed at it made Lyhr useless.

Absolutely no idea what they were thinking.

[bq pd.2148]

11 hours ago, Flowki.7194 said:

I use to play a lot of support tempest and hated the team wide mag auras, they are too casual, but you litterally had to use them, and mostly as a function of giving the heal/protection to team mates. That said, things like ranger LB are kinde toxic with 1500-1900? range.. so if they were to reduce the amount of projectile hate, then LB needs to take a range cap nerf, becuase 1500 is more than enough. That is in anticipation for if LB ever became viable.. could you imagine 2 or 3x LB rangers on a team, sitting at 1700 most of the time, with next to no counter coz they also have unblockables?

i mean right now those 3 LB rangers can hit you through projectile hate from all that range and they are not really viable because of map design and mobility creep.  the further the range, the more likely one can easily break LoS with something in between and with mobility creep many builds will still be almost instantly in your face from that max distance.
with my example change they would always do reduced damage into projectile denial, while right now they can ignore that with their unblockables.

the main point is that unblockable is a counter for 2 things that makes it difficult to properly assess how much is appropriate.

12 hours ago, Flowki.7194 said:

I have also played rev shortbow for a long time, and tbh I don't find projectile hate to be near as much a problem as block-immune-000 spam. The difference with projectile hate is that most specs can basically swap weapons now, negating its effect. I see a tempest overloading earth, I spam all my shortbow dps while he's overloading, then swap to mace just before it lands. Similarly I can swap to mace when a vindi is on hammer 4, but obviosuly thats a lot more of a risk for hammer 2, but these are still options to pressure when they thought they were good.

projectile hate is often manageable in 1 vs 1, even with the classes that have IMO a bit too much of it like tempest or ventari revs.  however i see them as problematic the larger the scale of the fight. which is why in WvW where groups are even larger projectiles usually have no effect at group size of 10+ even if not particularly organized. that is why i would rather see projectile denial mostly just reduce projectile damage and on the other side unblockable no longer having an effect on projectile denial so it can be tuned to specifically countering full blocks.

12 hours ago, Flowki.7194 said:

If a WB F3 jumps, and I don't have unblockables, I can't do kitten.. just run or block.

they only gain aegis on every X hits.  evading attacks are just as good as unblockables here or being able kite them while the f3 is up - granted not many can do that but stealth helps a lot, ranger should have an even easier time with spear there i guess.  but there are already several WB threads up atm, not much point going through all of that here again i suppose.
if everyone is supposed to have an unblockable access to deal with willbenders, you can forget your shield or GS block on your rev.

[Flowki.7194]

7 hours ago, bq pd.2148 said:

i mean right now those 3 LB rangers can hit you through projectile hate from all that range and they are not really viable because of map design and mobility creep.  the further the range, the more likely one can easily break LoS with something in between and with mobility creep many builds will still be almost instantly in your face from that max distance.
with my example change they would always do reduced damage into projectile denial, while right now they can ignore that with their unblockables.

the main point is that unblockable is a counter for 2 things that makes it difficult to properly assess how much is appropriate.

What is viable and what is toxic to fight is not really the same thing. Although with this community, if it is viable, it is toxic. The issue with LB is that it is just another example of a badly designed item/mechanics that is only a buff/new game mode away from rising its ugly face. For example, thief condi has been toxic all along, so much condi on 1 or 2 buttons on ANY thief spec. Those are the types of specs that litterally give condi a bad name, and should.

 

7 hours ago, bq pd.2148 said:

projectile hate is often manageable in 1 vs 1, even with the classes that have IMO a bit too much of it like tempest or ventari revs.  however i see them as problematic the larger the scale of the fight. which is why in WvW where groups are even larger projectiles usually have no effect at group size of 10+ even if not particularly organized. that is why i would rather see projectile denial mostly just reduce projectile damage and on the other side unblockable no longer having an effect on projectile denial so it can be tuned to specifically countering full blocks.

Again I play shortbow a lot, and I don't recall thinking "way too much projectile hate". Like I said, almost all specs have a weapon they can swap too now, which basically deals with projectile utility. Not all specs have, or can run unblockables, which is why blocks are more problematic, especially since the few specs spamming blocks, also have immunes, and even projectile utility. They have too much of everything, thats the problem.

 

Now you may call me bias here, but rev ventari dome has serious downsides. The energy upkeep forces you to make some real choices (and you lose stab on explode), you can't do everything at once, so have to prioritise what is more important. There is then still ample counter play in 1v1, and very much so in sPVP group fights. Tempest mag aura was way more casual, I always said it should have been single target.. so you have to choose who you want to support, which also leaves it prone to target switching, which has pro's and cons ofc.

 

7 hours ago, bq pd.2148 said:

they only gain aegis on every X hits.  evading attacks are just as good as unblockables here or being able kite them while the f3 is up - granted not many can do that but stealth helps a lot, ranger should have an even easier time with spear there i guess.  but there are already several WB threads up atm, not much point going through all of that here again i suppose.
if everyone is supposed to have an unblockable access to deal with willbenders, you can forget your shield or GS block on your rev.

Its not that WB has too many blocks, it is how and when it gets them. If the block was more like ele arcane shield, so they had to actually slot it, and conciously use it, I would not have as much to say about WB being a low risk, low effort dps, given the front foot just for pressing 1 button.

 

Edited August 16 by Flowki.7194

[bq pd.2148]

4 minutes ago, Flowki.7194 said:

What is viable and what is toxic to fight is not really the same thing. Although with this community, if it is viable, it is toxic. The issue with LB is that it is just another example of a badly designed item/mechanics that is only a buff/new game mode away from rising its ugly face. For example, thief condi has been toxic all along, so much condi on 1 or 2 buttons on ANY thief spec. Those are the types of specs that litterally give condi a bad name, and should.

i find what people consider toxic is very subjective, because of that things that are not viable are usually not seen as toxic for they are a non issue. i further do not see why your idea that LB ranger is toxic has any bearing on how projectile hate should work, for changes to LB ranger and changes to how projectile denial works are not mutually exclusive. 

8 minutes ago, Flowki.7194 said:

Again I play shortbow a lot, and I don't recall thinking "way too much projectile hate". Like I said, almost all specs have a weapon they can swap too now, which basically deals with projectile utility.

right 'projectile hate doesn't matter if you just dont use projectiles'.  which is exactly my problem with it, you forced to run a viable setup before adding the 'bonus' projectile options that you might be able to use, or not. 

14 minutes ago, Flowki.7194 said:

Now you may call me bias here, but rev ventari dome has serious downsides. The energy upkeep forces you to make some real choices (and you lose stab on explode), you can't do everything at once, so have to prioritise what is more important. There is then still ample counter play in 1v1, and very much so in sPVP group fights. Tempest mag aura was way more casual, I always said it should have been single target.. so you have to choose who you want to support, which also leaves it prone to target switching, which has pro's and cons ofc.

as said in 1 vs 1 there are usually options to deal with them, especially as per the above any currently viable build can kill people without using projectiles.  and yes there are downsides to ventari like lacking a stunbreak, yet especially at the extremes it becomes apparent why it is problematic  in a 50 vs 50 fight, a single ventari rev an block all (blockable) projectiles from the other 50 players pretty much all the time.   if instead projectile absorb where to reduce projectile damage by 33-50% in addition to protection etc. that would still grant massive value, but it would IMO be more in line. sure in sPvP at the smaller scales the issue might not be as big.

19 minutes ago, Flowki.7194 said:

Its not that WB has too many blocks, it is how and when it gets them. If the block was more like ele arcane shield, so they had to actually slot it, and conciously use it, I would not have as much to say about WB being a low risk, low effort dps, given the front foot just for pressing 1 button.

personally i dont really mind what button my opponent presses to get X effect, but against a thief for example the ele gets its 3 blocks, the willbender only if the thief likes to get hit, so from that perspective ele block is more problematic the the thief being instant and letting you continue with your offensive without giving the opponent the option to prevent the blocks from appearing, putting them on the front foot just for pressing 1 button.

[arazoth.7290]

7 minutes ago, bq pd.2148 said:

i find what people consider toxic is very subjective, because of that things that are not viable are usually not seen as toxic for they are a non issue. i further do not see why your idea that LB ranger is toxic has any bearing on how projectile hate should work, for changes to LB ranger and changes to how projectile denial works are not mutually exclusive. 

right 'projectile hate doesn't matter if you just dont use projectiles'.  which is exactly my problem with it, you forced to run a viable setup before adding the 'bonus' projectile options that you might be able to use, or not. 

as said in 1 vs 1 there are usually options to deal with them, especially as per the above any currently viable build can kill people without using projectiles.  and yes there are downsides to ventari like lacking a stunbreak, yet especially at the extremes it becomes apparent why it is problematic  in a 50 vs 50 fight, a single ventari rev an block all (blockable) projectiles from the other 50 players pretty much all the time.   if instead projectile absorb where to reduce projectile damage by 33-50% in addition to protection etc. that would still grant massive value, but it would IMO be more in line. sure in sPvP at the smaller scales the issue might not be as big.

personally i dont really mind what button my opponent presses to get X effect, but against a thief for example the ele gets its 3 blocks, the willbender only if the thief likes to get hit, so from that perspective ele block is more problematic the the thief being instant and letting you continue with your offensive without giving the opponent the option to prevent the blocks from appearing, putting them on the front foot just for pressing 1 button.

It doesn't need a stunbreak in that stance..., litarly 0% needed

[Flowki.7194]

2 hours ago, bq pd.2148 said:

I find what people consider toxic is very subjective, because of that things that are not viable are usually not seen as toxic for they are a non issue. i further do not see why your idea that LB ranger is toxic has any bearing on how projectile hate should work, for changes to LB ranger and changes to how projectile denial works are not mutually exclusive.

LB outranges everything in the game, including gap closer/tps. The damage atm is not "bad" but there are other issues that you touched on. If a new mode comes along, open map, 3x lb rangers could delete/deny area for a lot of things at the safety of 1600 for barrage, or 1900? force firing. They are also not push overs in melee, and have a few good escape options, along with thief reveal.

 

2 hours ago, bq pd.2148 said:

'projectile hate doesn't matter if you just dont use projectiles'.  which is exactly my problem with it, you forced to run a viable setup before adding the 'bonus' projectile options that you might be able to use, or not. 

There are a number of specs that suffered a lot more to projectile counters before the all weapon patch. That problem is nion none existant now, I don't know what else to say, look at reaper.. not struggling at all, I also don't see axe/de thieves complaining.. in-fact the opposite, in regard to axe theif.

 

2 hours ago, bq pd.2148 said:

as said in 1 vs 1 there are usually options to deal with them, especially as per the above any currently viable build can kill people without using projectiles.  and yes there are downsides to ventari like lacking a stunbreak, yet especially at the extremes it becomes apparent why it is problematic  in a 50 vs 50 fight, a single ventari rev an block all (blockable) projectiles from the other 50 players pretty much all the time.   if instead projectile absorb where to reduce projectile damage by 33-50% in addition to protection etc. that would still grant massive value, but it would IMO be more in line. sure in sPvP at the smaller scales the issue might not be as big.

This is about sPVP, and vent is in not oppressive at all there, In-fact I often get mocked for using it. 

 

2 hours ago, bq pd.2148 said:

personally i dont really mind what button my opponent presses to get X effect, but against a thief for example the ele gets its 3 blocks, the willbender only if the thief likes to get hit, so from that perspective ele block is more problematic the the thief being instant and letting you continue with your offensive without giving the opponent the option to prevent the blocks from appearing, putting them on the front foot just for pressing 1 button.

 

WB and ele are a little similar now with the arcane changes, and more eles seem to be running double arcane, thats not good, and I said that in the past. Both styles of play, regardless of differences in foolproofness, encourage face tanking, or holding down W while spewing out block covered burst. Its brainded.

 

I still think the game would have been better if they gave out more dodges, and less blocks-immunes. These durational block-immunes just let people spew out damage with very little counter pressure, and counter pressure is one of the key ways to really test skill, how do they handle the counter pressure? I can't tell, they are just spamming blocks-immunes... and the answer to that is not just spamming unblockables, just as braidned.

 

Block spam is not the only thing. Daze spam from rangers, target drop/stealth spam from multiple specs, all of this reduces the real ability to counter pressure, so players on these specs are not really being tested fully on game knowledge etc, they are crutch mechanics if overused, which they are. It will really let you know where the lines are. Its not about skill, its about risk/punishment, and youll see that on herald.

 

Edited August 16 by Flowki.7194