Spellbreaker is not healthy for PvP Scene

[cOf.7940]

As it says on the title, this spec and full counter shouldn't be in PvP. 

Full counter needs to be reworked or delete it for good.

Defence traitline + spellbreaker traitline need to be nerfed like they did into firebrand in the past so these 2 traitlines won't be viable anymore.

We have suffered for almost 3 years because of this disgusting class and now its even worse with spear. 

I swear double minionmancer + core guard team comps before EoD was healtier than current state of the game. 

[Myror.7521]

Can we then also nerf ........ stealth spam deadeyes? Or perma invuln mes? Or rangers? What about necr with all its ccs? Vindicator with all its dodges? Maybe also Guardian blinds plus Aegis Blocks? 

Oh wait i can simply Play around all this? Its skill issue you say? Hmmm okay 

[Hotride.2187]

Yeah, sure. A few months of sprinkled spb here and there, in last 2 years. And mostly bladesworn after eod drop.

Spb is around and sticking since the staff addition. Was kinda obnoxious too before the adrenal health nerf.

But 3 years? Lol.

[WingSwipe.3084]

7 hours ago, cOf.7940 said:

As it says on the title, this spec and full counter shouldn't be in PvP. 

Full counter needs to be reworked or delete it for good.

Defence traitline + spellbreaker traitline need to be nerfed like they did into firebrand in the past so these 2 traitlines won't be viable anymore.

We have suffered for almost 3 years because of this disgusting class and now its even worse with spear. 

I swear double minionmancer + core guard team comps before EoD was healtier than current state of the game. 

The devs are so unwilling to fix SPB because it would require them to make a deep dive on warrior and its issues to fix it.

Im not even joking or pity farming for warrior mains, the devs straight up wont touch warrior unless they get overwhelming feedback like they did on spear. 

[Brandon.8294]

I, personally, find SB among the most fair duelists. Their attacks are telegraphed, they’re almost entirely melee and require knowledge of other classes to time full counter well.

 

My best advice for dealing with a spell breaker is counting their full counter and be ready to sheeth your weapon. Cancelling your own animations is your best weapon. As a Weaver one trick, I time full counter with my attunements. 3 attunements = 1 full counter, so I know after my 3rd attunement I need to bait out their counter.

[Trevor Boyer.6524]

2 hours ago, Brandon.8294 said:

I, personally, find SB among the most fair duelists.

^ Right here.

Spellbreaker has been this game's one shining example of actual balance for nearly 10 years. Everything with playing as or playing against a Spellbreaker has always been the very definition of L2P. A bad Spellbreaker can get wrecked in seconds, but a good Spellbreaker can potentially win any 1v1 and you can't stop him from doing it if he's good enough.

It's like the perfect design and this is largely due to Full Counter mechanic. The skill floor is very low to enter learning on it, but the skill ceiling is massively high for potential counter-play strategies vs. anything. < This is how things should be.

The problems with Spellbreaker NOW in 2024, stepped into the scene with the implementation of Staff. This was the tipping point where Spellbreaker was given plainly too many defensive abilities. Now it's monstrously over tanked and there are indeed problems that need to be tended to. But I assure you, targeting Full Counter is NOT how to go about this. The prevalent issues with Spellbreaker now, lie within Staff and Defiant Stance.

Arenanet needs to be careful on this one, tampering with the golden design. If they target the Full Counter CD bug, it's going to make playing the fun version of Spellbreaker entirely obsolete. Like you won't be able to run D/SH/GS anymore if FC gets a worse CD than it's already on. Staff play with a bunch of tanky options will become mandatory, and that's kind of cringe imo. The most fun Spellbreaker builds that capture that idea of "the golden balance design" are the builds that run essentially full DPS that rely on FC as the primary defense.

Just my opinion.

[Myror.7521]

@Trevor Boyer.6524 yep exactly why i said they should nerf the healing without heal stats used even more ^^ the heal of staff in comb with adrenal health is too strong imo

[Azure The Heartless.3261]

While spelbreaker does need an adjustment to fc because of a long standing bug, I can't help but notice the irony of players that play buulds where they don't have full control over when they attack finding the problem in the mechanic that punishes them for playing that way, and further still finding it to be a problem of low effort. Like bro, its running off your button presses and subsequent landing of the counter. It got all the venom kicked out if it and it's still annoying you, but instead of stowing you want it removed now?

I'm not going to comment one way or the other balance wise, just putting that into the discussion. 

Edited August 23 by Azure The Heartless.3261

[Terrorhuz.4695]

Just now, Azure The Heartless.3261 said:

I can't help but notice the irony of players that play buulds where they don't have full control over when they attack finding the problem in the mechanic that punishes them for playing that way.

This is overly simplicistic. Spellbreaker does punish some builds harder than others, that I'll concede, but there isn't a build capable of threatening a spellbreaker in any way. It's not like once you respected full counter a warrior is magically out of everything else; you still have to get through a metric kittenton of blocks, evades, endure pain and various kitten.

[Azure The Heartless.3261]

@Terrorhuz.4695 i see you, you beat warriors by default don't start 💀

I thought you were gonna hit me with the mes clone auto scenario, I apologize 💀

Edited August 23 by Azure The Heartless.3261

[Terrorhuz.4695]

Just now, Azure The Heartless.3261 said:

@Terrorhuz.4695 i see you, you beat warriors by default don't start 💀

Whatever you've seen, I must have missed it. What are you referring to?

By the way, I'm all for making swipe unblockable again so at least there's someone capable of punching through this infestation of spellbreakers

Edited August 23 by Terrorhuz.4695

[Trevor Boyer.6524]

16 minutes ago, Myror.7521 said:

@Trevor Boyer.6524 yep exactly why i said they should nerf the healing without heal stats used even more ^^ the heal of staff in comb with adrenal health is too strong imo

It really is. And it becomes much more ridiculous when you add in Heretic and Defender Relic.

[Azure The Heartless.3261]

1 minute ago, Terrorhuz.4695 said:

Whatever you've seen, I must have missed it. What are you referring to?

By the way, I'm all for making swipe unblockable again so at least there's someone capable of punching through this infestation of spellbreakers

Edited 😭

[asket.5674]

28 minutes ago, Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

^ Right here.

Spellbreaker has been this game's one shining example of actual balance for nearly 10 years. Everything with playing as or playing against a Spellbreaker has always been the very definition of L2P. A bad Spellbreaker can get wrecked in seconds, but a good Spellbreaker can potentially win any 1v1 and you can't stop him from doing it if he's good enough.

It's like the perfect design and this is largely due to Full Counter mechanic. The skill floor is very low to enter learning on it, but the skill ceiling is massively high for potential counter-play strategies vs. anything. < This is how things should be.

The problems with Spellbreaker NOW in 2024, stepped into the scene with the implementation of Staff. This was the tipping point where Spellbreaker was given plainly too many defensive abilities. Now it's monstrously over tanked and there are indeed problems that need to be tended to. But I assure you, targeting Full Counter is NOT how to go about this. The prevalent issues with Spellbreaker now, lie within Staff and Defiant Stance.

Arenanet needs to be careful on this one, tampering with the golden design. If they target the Full Counter CD bug, it's going to make playing the fun version of Spellbreaker entirely obsolete. Like you won't be able to run D/SH/GS anymore if FC gets a worse CD than it's already on. Staff play with a bunch of tanky options will become mandatory, and that's kind of cringe imo. The most fun Spellbreaker builds that capture that idea of "the golden balance design" are the builds that run essentially full DPS that rely on FC as the primary defense.

Just my opinion.

Gotta agree on this take, had to put confuse emoji though, bc trev feeds on them. 

[Azure The Heartless.3261]

2 minutes ago, Terrorhuz.4695 said:

This is overly simplicistic. Spellbreaker does punish some builds harder than others, that I'll concede, but there isn't a build capable of threatening a spellbreaker in any way. It's not like once you respected full counter a warrior is magically out of everything else; you still have to get through a metric kittenton of blocks, evades, endure pain and various kitten.

This I will agree with, I'm aware the balance issues are far more nuanced than this, which is why I didn't comment on specifics.  OP made a specific claim that resonates with some opinions I've seen recently, was my point.

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

5 hours ago, WingSwipe.3084 said:

The devs are so unwilling to fix SPB because it would require them to make a deep dive on warrior and its issues to fix it.

Im not even joking or pity farming for warrior mains, the devs straight up wont touch warrior unless they get overwhelming feedback like they did on spear. 

Not like we haven't been doing that for the past 4 years... 

[Vancho.8750]

31 minutes ago, Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

Not like we haven't been doing that for the past 4 years... 

See the Devs have read all the War main complaints, they just apply the ideas to other professions. I've been complaining about Thousand blades to work like Trillion Stab from DMC and I got it, but on Necro , kinda fine with that, but kinda wish Thousand blades wasn't kitten too.

Edited August 23 by Vancho.8750

[Flowki.7194]

1 hour ago, Azure The Heartless.3261 said:

While spelbreaker does need an adjustment to fc because of a long standing bug, I can't help but notice the irony of players that play buulds where they don't have full control over when they attack finding the problem in the mechanic that punishes them for playing that way, and further still finding it to be a problem of low effort. Like bro, its running off your button presses and subsequent landing of the counter. It got all the venom kicked out if it and it's still annoying you, but instead of stowing you want it removed now?

I'm not going to comment one way or the other balance wise, just putting that into the discussion. 

 

1 hour ago, Terrorhuz.4695 said:

This is overly simplicistic. Spellbreaker does punish some builds harder than others, that I'll concede, but there isn't a build capable of threatening a spellbreaker in any way. It's not like once you respected full counter a warrior is magically out of everything else; you still have to get through a metric kittenton of blocks, evades, endure pain and various kitten.

 

Terror got at some of it. SPBs have become very bias and defensive over FC, and are essentially gas lighting people into thinking its a "just stow". This is the same as a tempest defending mag aura by saying "just stow". I use to play tempest, and I can tell you straight there are many abilitys where a significant reflect is nion garunteed becuase of how the abilitys work. Even still, mag reflect was more balanced becuase many projectile abilitys are duration based, which give time to dodge/mitigate the reflect. The problem with tempest mag auras was the amount they had, not how the mechanics worked. The problem with FC is directly related to how it works.. it triggers very easily, on multi hit abilitys, and any half decent warrior can time it just like a dodge on harder hitter, single abilitys.

 

It does not take special SPB unique skill to use FC. To use FC effectively, it is no different to using a dodge, which all classes do. That is where the SPBs try to gaslight. Look at it this way, a good SPB can time FC like a dodge, to .2 seconds of the incoming attack. For the player to "just stow", he now has to react in .1 second?.. and that is assuming a single hit ability. There are more than enough multi hit abilitys, and abilitys that cannot be cancelled. SPBs then try to say "ok well now you should predict when FC is off CD and just not use those abilitys". Are you for real? I need to stop using half my dps, to ensure the SPB is not going to use FC? which now absolutely leads to me never being able to apply enough pressure to ever win that fight, as he will never have to use FC.. so then I will never use half my abilitys becuase he has not forced to use FC?  You guys are jokers 😜 Even then, he can start using FC as a luxury, given I am now way behind on attrition.

 

Now take a look at rev GS 4. That is a FAR better utilisation of "FC" mechanics. First you see the rev is blocking, so you can stop attacking before feeding it too much dmg (that helps for specs that can't simple stow, take any shatter for example) and then you know he has to hit you again after the block ends, which offers additionaly counter play. The Rev gets some pressure relief worse case, and gets to punish you with a heavy hit best case, all the while, you have 2 oppertunitys play around it.. as it is the easier ability to use. Honestly, these block abilitys of any sort are much easier to use as soon as anybody understands the general abilitys in the game. I GS4 block massive damage all the time, and reflected a lot of projectile all the time. SPBs need to stop coping on the ease of activation of FC, youre just showing your level, or your cope.

 

Also most SPBs are not near as good at the game as they think. They so often act like they are some expert 1v1 duelists who know every spec inside out and time all there kitten brilliantly. I have noticed when ever fighting SPB;s where I have single shot big hitter abilitys, there dodging/blocking/fc timing is not actually that good, yet if I was playing condi/duration hitting abilitys, they "seem" better players. As I also mention many times, I have noticed frequently the amount of plat SPBs who continually try to CC me in the same duel, while I applied stab, they don't do frequent boon checks. The spec is so rip bloated most of their CC lands just becuase. It is only becuase I can reaply stab that I see this being exposed in SPBs. They don't boon check frequently

 

This is similar to virts, who got way too use to aeg/invulns and now fooled themselves into thinkin they are amazing at the game. I boon check, I see they can be CC'd, and 9/10 times they get CC'd, or even eat all of sevenshot with no cc at all. You see where I am going here right? They are crutch specs, and these fools are trying to gaslight/cope on their specs by telling everybody else its l2p issues. It is true ofc I have l2p issues, but I don't cope on my builds.. deathdrop was kitten, mag spam was reteraded, condi cata was kitten, and so on. Stop coping, deal with the things that are making warrior brainded bloated, so that you guys playing warrior, who should be in the best position to talk about it, make unbias suggestions that benefit the class and game overall. FC is not a high skill ability to activate, now with that, balance it accordingly.

 

 

Edited August 23 by Flowki.7194

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

33 minutes ago, Flowki.7194 said:

 

 

Terror got at some of it. SPBs have become very bias and defensive over FC, and are essentially gas lighting people into thinking its a "just stow". This is the same as a tempest defending mag aura by saying "just stow". I use to play tempest, and I can tell you straight there are many abilitys where a significant reflect is nion garunteed becuase of how the abilitys work. Even still, mag reflect was more balanced becuase many projectile abilitys are duration based, which give time to dodge/mitigate the reflect. The problem with tempest mag auras was the amount they had, not how the mechanics worked. The problem with FC is directly related to how it works.. it triggers very easily, on multi hit abilitys, and any half decent warrior can time it just like a dodge on harder hitter, single abilitys.

 

It does not take special SPB unique skill to use FC. To use FC effectively, it is no different to using a dodge, which all classes do. That is where the SPBs try to gaslight. Look at it this way, a good SPB can time FC like a dodge, to .2 seconds of the incoming attack. For the player to "just stow", he now has to react in .1 second?.. and that is assuming a single hit ability. There are more than enough multi hit abilitys, and abilitys that cannot be cancelled. SPBs then try to say "ok well now you should predict when FC is off CD and just not use those abilitys". Are you for real? I need to stop using half my dps, to ensure the SPB is not going to use FC? which now absolutely leads to me never being able to apply enough pressure to ever win that fight, as he will never have to use FC.. so then I will never use half my abilitys becuase he has not forced to use FC?  You guys are jokers 😜 Even then, he can start using FC as a luxury, given I am now way behind on attrition.

 

Now take a look at rev GS 4. That is a FAR better utilisation of "FC" mechanics. First you see the rev is blocking, so you can stop attacking before feeding it too much dmg (that helps for specs that can't simple stow, take any shatter for example) and then you know he has to hit you again after the block ends, which offers additionaly counter play. The Rev gets some pressure relief worse case, and gets to punish you with a heavy hit best case, all the while, you have 2 oppertunitys play around it.. as it is the easier ability to use. Honestly, these block abilitys of any sort are much easier to use as soon as anybody understands the general abilitys in the game. I GS4 block massive damage all the time, and reflected a lot of projectile all the time. SPBs need to stop coping on the ease of activation of FC, youre just showing your level, or your cope.

 

Also most SPBs are not near as good at the game as they think. They so often act like they are some expert 1v1 duelists who know every spec inside out and time all there kitten brilliantly. I have noticed when ever fighting SPB;s where I have single shot big hitter abilitys, there dodging/blocking/fc timing is not actually that good, yet if I was playing condi/duration hitting abilitys, they "seem" better players. As I also mention many times, I have noticed frequently the amount of plat SPBs who continually try to CC me in the same duel, while I applied stab, they don't do frequent boon checks. The spec is so rip bloated most of their CC lands just becuase. It is only becuase I can reaply stab that I see this being exposed in SPBs. They don't boon check frequently

 

This is similar to virts, who got way too use to aeg/invulns and now fooled themselves into thinkin they are amazing at the game. I boon check, I see they can be CC'd, and 9/10 times they get CC'd, or even eat all of sevenshot with no cc at all. You see where I am going here right? They are crutch specs, and these fools are trying to gaslight/cope on their specs by telling everybody else its l2p issues. It is true ofc I have l2p issues, but I don't cope on my builds.. deathdrop was kitten, mag spam was reteraded, condi cata was kitten, and so on. Stop coping, deal with the things that are making warrior brainded bloated, so that you guys playing warrior, who should be in the best position to talk about it, make unbias suggestions that benefit the class and game overall. FC is not a high skill ability to activate, now with that, balance it accordingly.

 

 

I would say, pointing out and asking for the CD reduction bug to be fixed is fairly unbiased. As well as pointing out that FC and Spellbreaker in general have too much utility and extra damage that it impedes other aspects of warrior getting the attention that it needs.

[Vancho.8750]

@Flowki.7194 Well the Rev GS5 block is a Suggestion for a Rework on FC from the Warrior forum so FC could be made into actual PVE DPS mechanic that can be used in rotation.

Also you are not playing with plat Warriors cause everyone is playing in g 2 3 something, pretty sure most sPVP warriors left around 2020 which is good cause people would not be able to handle them at all these days with the JP kite spots and all.  

[Flowki.7194]

2 hours ago, Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

I would say, pointing out and asking for the CD reduction bug to be fixed is fairly unbiased. As well as pointing out that FC and Spellbreaker in general have too much utility and extra damage that it impedes other aspects of warrior getting the attention that it needs.

 

Im speaking more in general. But tbf, Im not so sure the FC bug fix will be all that meaningful. All of the points I raised about the ease of FC trigger still apply. I am not suggesting a substantial FC cd increase either, as that does nothing but shaft SPB, while still not adressing the brainded trigger rates of FC.

 

Well yes, other warrior builds need attention, but lets not forget the absolute toxicity that still exists in those specs. Blade sustain was an abomination, how do you make blade viable while not being braidned easy to play? Czerker just as bad. Then, meme rifle zerker gets called a meme sure, but what if that got more sustain?.. suddenly you are dealing with a very toxic spec, likely worse than DH given more instant damage.

 

2 hours ago, Vancho.8750 said:

@Flowki.7194 Well the Rev GS5 block is a Suggestion for a Rework on FC from the Warrior forum so FC could be made into actual PVE DPS mechanic that can be used in rotation.

Also you are not playing with plat Warriors cause everyone is playing in g 2 3 something, pretty sure most sPVP warriors left around 2020 which is good cause people would not be able to handle them at all these days with the JP kite spots and all.  

It needs a mechanic overhaul for sure, it is just too easy to trigger.

 

I dueled plenty of plats of all specs in arena, and played on-off peak from g1-p1 for almost 500 games this season, where I also see those true p2 players. I agree a lot of players are not "true plats". There are clearly some more forgiving specs, just as there are clearly some bloated duelist specs, that help to carry. Add to that a wide MMR, I would say that around 40% of the p1 population is in and out of gold 3 on a convayer belt. I see this frequently on regulars in arena. in a typical g3 game, where you can be matched as low as g1, there will be true p1 players (currently dunked into g3) who are now playing with g1 players. This is why I often talk about "true plat skill level" or "true gold skill level". Basically, if an SPB tries to CC me multiple times in 1 duel while I have stab, he aint plat, and I don't care what his badge says. If he has a plat badge, he was carried by the spec/mmr. The thing is, he can still win duels despite making those massive mistakes. Mace untamed at a higher skill level can also make massive mistakes (that would get a balanced spec killed) but consistantly recover from its bloat of sustain/daze.

Edited August 23 by Flowki.7194

[jdawgie.1835]

3 hours ago, Flowki.7194 said:

Also most SPBs are not near as good at the game as they think. They so often act like they are some expert 1v1 duelists who know every spec inside out and time all there kitten brilliantly. I have noticed when ever fighting SPB;s where I have single shot big hitter abilitys, there dodging/blocking/fc timing is not actually that good, yet if I was playing condi/duration hitting abilitys, they "seem" better players. As I also mention many times, I have noticed frequently the amount of plat SPBs who continually try to CC me in the same duel, while I applied stab, they don't do frequent boon checks. The spec is so rip bloated most of their CC lands just becuase. It is only becuase I can reaply stab that I see this being exposed in SPBs. They don't boon check frequently

Read through the post - Man this is true af. 

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

17 minutes ago, Flowki.7194 said:

 

Im speaking more in general. But tbf, Im not so sure the FC bug fix will be all that meaningful. All of the points I raised about the ease of FC trigger still apply. I am not suggesting a substantial FC cd increase either, as that does nothing but shaft SPB, while still not adressing the brainded trigger rates of FC.

It's more of, let's get the actual CD there first and make sure it is still in need of any further changes rather than risking Anet Smiter's Booning it or the rest of the spec which they are known to do.

17 minutes ago, Flowki.7194 said:

Well yes, other warrior builds need attention, but lets not forget the absolute toxicity that still exists in those specs. Blade sustain was an abomination, how do you make blade viable while not being braidned easy to play? Czerker just as bad. Then, meme rifle zerker gets called a meme sure, but what if that got more sustain?.. suddenly you are dealing with a very toxic spec, likely worse than DH given more instant damage.

Bladesworn was completely trashed and ridiculed during its beta for the mechanical mess that it is. We pointed out then that TR would cause problems. We pointed out that the heal spam would be broken and we pointed out that the unblockable on UD was propping it up in competitive modes. If it did not do 6 figures worth of damage in one hit in PvE it wouldn't get played there either. That spec needs a complete ground up overhaul and rework to the point that they would be creating a whole new espec... Czerker we've also pointed out that they need to remove a single stack of confusion from skullgrinder to bring it in line, but they've yet to do that. As to Gunflame, well the rest of rifle sucks kitten so even if it got some sort of sustain from anywhere, I highly doubt that it would become very toxic. Now, if they seriously worked on rifle, like halved the cast time on Volley and the AA chain, made the evade less clunky (its better than it was, but still needs work), or even make Riflebutt a pbaoe or gave it a small lunge, then I can see Gunflame builds become less of a meme, and then toxic if more sustain was granted from somewhere.

[Vancho.8750]

@Flowki.7194 To tell you the truth Warrior can't carry kitten its just sure fire way to hold one node, even way back and even when it was the peak of SPB it just ended up in stalemates. Sidenoding kinda sucks overall, its necessary but it does not give you an edge to sway the game in your favour its just hail marry if your team can keep the second node even if you are good at it and if everything is going to kitten you just don't have the build to help, you can only stall the game.

I don't think people are going up the ranks with warrior, most likely they go up with something that can carry a game like some roamer or teamfighter and then switch up to warrior to get 50/50 win rate from then on. Currently its quite abusable cause no one wants to sidenode anymore and most likely one team will have you as sidenoder and the other team will have more roamers. 
Honestly its that OP compared to previous OP sidenoders its still gankable, the catch is that most gankers are bad or if you have sidenoder he is bad too cause Match maker is pulling from each direction. When it gets balanced I think we will get shittier alternative that will probably be also roamer sidenoder and all the jazz and will be annoying to everyone not just the sides, its a pattern, after the 3 months warrior meta its always something somehow worse.   

[Flowki.7194]

50 minutes ago, Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

It's more of, let's get the actual CD there first and make sure it is still in need of any further changes rather than risking Anet Smiter's Booning it or the rest of the spec which they are known to do.

It isn't just about the FC CD but you can answer this question for me. Even if the CD was 10 seconds, the warrior has enough block/slept on defiant stance/kite/projectile reflect/cc, to ensure that FC CD at 10 seconds will still fall well within his "rotation", you might hit a missmatch of FC rotating at what, the 1 min mark?.. where he has to wait a shocking 2 seconds for an FC? Do you think that is the case or not? If so, then we are again back to the main point, anybody who is half decent at dodging, could pick up SPB and get regular FC procs.

50 minutes ago, Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

Bladesworn was completely trashed and ridiculed during its beta for the mechanical mess that it is. We pointed out then that TR would cause problems. We pointed out that the heal spam would be broken and we pointed out that the unblockable on UD was propping it up in competitive modes. If it did not do 6 figures worth of damage in one hit in PvE it wouldn't get played there either. That spec needs a complete ground up overhaul and rework to the point that they would be creating a whole new espec... Czerker we've also pointed out that they need to remove a single stack of confusion from skullgrinder to bring it in line, but they've yet to do that. As to Gunflame, well the rest of rifle sucks kitten so even if it got some sort of sustain from anywhere, I highly doubt that it would become very toxic. Now, if they seriously worked on rifle, like halved the cast time on Volley and the AA chain, made the evade less clunky (its better than it was, but still needs work), or even make Riflebutt a pbaoe or gave it a small lunge, then I can see Gunflame builds become less of a meme, and then toxic if more sustain was granted from somewhere.

 

This is fair enough, Anet have done a terrible job at this class overall, and thats a shame as it is one of the most iconic classes in this type of game. This is the cost of trying to be different.. rather than implimenting some tried and tested mainstays of what people expect from such a class.