Stop Treating WvW like a GvG environment

[SweetPotato.7456]

this can be solved by reducing the number of alliance guild member.

[Cyninja.2954]

1 hour ago, Charall.4710 said:

I'd dare to say that chance is growing much much larger as time goes on, people are severely unhappy with the guild system and the feedback has been insanely negative for pretty much all of the restructuring beta. Guilds are quitting, players are quitting, people are getting into the wrong matchups even though they selected the same guild together, the system is horribly broken and pressure is mounting on Anet to either fix it or return to how things were.

Based on the consistency though of peoples responses, reverting back to the server based WvW is likely going to be the eventual move.

This is the perfect example of a confirmation bubble.

Again since you seem to have missed this:

Your assumption and the complaints some forum users bring up are NOT reflected in the numbers we have access to.

You can complain and have dozens of player agree with you, then all confirm each others points. As long as your complaint is NOT reflected in the overall player behavior, it's meaningless.

As is, some players complain over and over and since these same players are all drawn to the same topic over and over, there suddenly is a distorted perception that this complaint somehow applies to all players.

Meanwhile other players are playing the game, not complaining, and if the numbers those players produce are healthy, then the issue is not as relevant as the few complainers might believe. 

Step outside your bubble, take a look at how the mode is doing overall instead of assuming your perception is the only viable one, then try to draw less biased conclusions.

Edited September 2 by Cyninja.2954

[Cyninja.2954]

52 minutes ago, Visirale.6097 said:

Only if this echo chamber is your only consumption of information on how people feel about wvw. The thoughts that get parroted here (for example roaming balance) are problems that affect a very small portion of the actual active wvw playerbase. These forums are not representative of all of the actively playing wvw population. Most alliances I know were glad to move to a post-server version of wvw.

Exactly.

[Gotejjeken.1267]

54 minutes ago, Visirale.6097 said:

Only if this echo chamber is your only consumption of information on how people feel about wvw. The thoughts that get parroted here (for example roaming balance) are problems that affect a very small portion of the actual active wvw playerbase. These forums are not representative of all of the actively playing wvw population. Most alliances I know were glad to move to a post-server version of wvw.

This is a 'pics or it didn't happen' type post--are there screenshots in-game of people celebrating moving away from worlds to whatever this new system is (the one that they can't even name, so they call it World Restructuring).  

I'd disagree that roaming balance is a small issue, compared to even a few years ago, roaming is dead dead.  This was even a pre-WR thing, roaming has been dead since they buffed cele and introduced the EoD specs.  

As for large scale, unless you are a zergling pressing '1', from what I can see in game is it isn't fun for anyone.  Going back to my original thought, maybe I'll save some in-game screens for occasions like this, to show that the forums isn't just some twitterspace echo chamber, there are legit issues here.  

[One more for the road.8950]

3 minutes ago, Gotejjeken.1267 said:

This is a 'pics or it didn't happen' type post--are there screenshots in-game of people celebrating moving away from worlds to whatever this new system is (the one that they can't even name, so they call it World Restructuring).  

I'd disagree that roaming balance is a small issue, compared to even a few years ago, roaming is dead dead.  This was even a pre-WR thing, roaming has been dead since they buffed cele and introduced the EoD specs.  

As for large scale, unless you are a zergling pressing '1', from what I can see in game is it isn't fun for anyone.  Going back to my original thought, maybe I'll save some in-game screens for occasions like this, to show that the forums isn't just some twitterspace echo chamber, there are legit issues here.  

What I see in the forums and the complaining and utter belief that this is the worst thing that happened to WvW and bring servers back yesterday... doesn't at all line up with my experience in game. It's a forum thing. It's like people are playing two different games.

People are complaining about things. But WR being the core of all WvW trouble is not one of them. WR is more of a relief.

[Gotejjeken.1267]

2 minutes ago, One more for the road.8950 said:

What I see in the forums and the complaining and utter belief that this is the worst thing that happened to WvW and bring servers back yesterday... doesn't at all line up with my experience in game. It's a forum thing. It's like people are playing two different games.

People are complaining about things. But WR being the core of all WvW trouble is not one of them. WR is more of a relief.

Again, I think both sides need actual screenshot proof of this.  We have proof that the fourms don't like it because we can well, read them, but having a larger set of ingame proof would be nice.  

As for me, I don't see really any good or bad atm, as team chat has been dead in each repairing since this started fulltime a month or two back.  There's like no trolling, no discussion, no activity--maybe a ping or two that some random guild is tagging up or rarely and EWP anymore, but little else.  That alone tells me the community is fractured, but whether people like this or not is still debatable without some actual proofs of discussion.    

[One more for the road.8950]

6 minutes ago, Gotejjeken.1267 said:

Again, I think both sides need actual screenshot proof of this.  We have proof that the fourms don't like it because we can well, read them, but having a larger set of ingame proof would be nice.  

As for me, I don't see really any good or bad atm, as team chat has been dead in each repairing since this started fulltime a month or two back.  There's like no trolling, no discussion, no activity--maybe a ping or two that some random guild is tagging up or rarely and EWP anymore, but little else.  That alone tells me the community is fractured, but whether people like this or not is still debatable without some actual proofs of discussion.    

You want a screenshot of the overall feeling I experience in game? What?

[Charall.4710]

11 minutes ago, Gotejjeken.1267 said:

Again, I think both sides need actual screenshot proof of this. 

While I dont have that presently, I do have accounts from 4 out of 6 of my guilds which are WvW specific guilds. All of the WvW ones I am in are saying the same thing I am, they are less inclined to play because of the alliances.

Edit: These arent small WvW guilds either, they each have 384 members at the minimum with 20-50 on at any given point of time in a 24hr period.

Edited September 2 by Charall.4710

[Gotejjeken.1267]

16 minutes ago, One more for the road.8950 said:

You want a screenshot of the overall feeling I experience in game? What?

Yes.  

You are saying this is just a 'forum thing' with no backing up whatsoever.  It's called anecdotal evidence--what I'm suggesting is have actual screens or vids of people being happy about WR.  

15 minutes ago, Charall.4710 said:

While I dont have that presently, I do have accounts from 4 out of 6 of my guilds which are WvW specific guilds. All of the WvW ones I am in are saying the same thing I am, they are less inclined to play because of the alliances.

Edit: These arent small WvW guilds either, they each have 384 members at the minimum with 20-50 on at any given point of time in a 24hr period.

This is my feeling as well, but also based on only team chat activity as my guild is small to begin with (there are usually 5 of us on at any given time).  I'm sure if I log in closer to prime time I'd get more actual hard evidence of people being annoyed, but the feeling is there anytime I go into WvW.  

In today's terms, WvW no longer passes the vibe check.  

[One more for the road.8950]

Just now, Gotejjeken.1267 said:

Yes.  

You are saying this is just a 'forum thing' with no backing up whatsoever.  It's called anecdotal evidence--what I'm suggesting is have actual screens or vids of people being happy about WR.  

This is my feeling as well, but also based on only team chat activity as my guild is small to begin with (there are usually 5 of us on at any given time).  I'm sure if I log in closer to prime time I'd get more actual hard evidence of people being annoyed, but the feeling is there anytime I go into WvW.  

In today's terms, WvW no longer passes the vibe check.  

I said what I see in the forums doesn't line up with my experience in game. Of course it's bloody anecdotal evidence. My experience. Hello?

33 minutes ago, One more for the road.8950 said:

What I see in the forums and the complaining and utter belief that this is the worst thing that happened to WvW and bring servers back yesterday... doesn't at all line up with my experience in game. It's a forum thing. It's like people are playing two different games.

People are complaining about things. But WR being the core of all WvW trouble is not one of them. WR is more of a relief.

 

[One more for the road.8950]

I think you have misunderstood what is and what needs proof. Go read some more about debate techniques or what you are trying to do here. It doesn't make sense to take screenshots of overall feelings. Or maybe it's a language barrier thing.

[XenesisII.1540]

2 hours ago, Charall.4710 said:

I think people honestly would have preferred they give us actual GvG on top of WvW remaining as it was because GvG was a thing in gw1 and is still popular in the game to this very day.

Would have preferred if they had separated it by instance, like they do for open world pve and raids. All they've done is turn wvw into a giant raid where the pugs are trash mobs to deal with before running into another boon ball(raid bosses), while also ignoring mechanics, just stand next to each other and pewpew. 

But hey if the guilds are happy that's all the matters I guess, they better be since they're the ones getting heavily catered to. 🤷‍♂️

[devastoscz.9851]

I've come to realize that these WvW forums are the echo chamber for the malcontent and disgruntled; people who would rather complain here than make adjustments to their play style.

I don't understand the proposed logic here. The argument that these boon balls only log on for 2 hours a day and then its "dead" or a "barren wasteland"... then where are all the so-called roamers/havoc and pugs the rest of the time? And why aren't they enjoying the non-boon ball hours? Why aren't the maps queued with these players even before the boon balls have a chance to get in? If these players that hate the boon ball were so massively prevalent, the boon ball groups would be queued out of every map by the non-comped players.

Asking to provide evidence (screenshots/videos) of satisfied players is unreasonable; ofc the upset people will be vocal about their feelings. The people who like it, adapted, don't care or are entirely apathetic towards the changes don't go yelling out "I love this, I feel this is reasonable, this is a little better than before, I don't care at all" around the maps. They're actually playing the game instead of complaining about it.

Yeah it's "terrible" that a 20/30/50 man group who spent hours curating their builds into synergy, who put effort into getting better together, who collaborate, who take the effort of getting into comms to coordinate, who play together to hang out with their friends for hundreds of hours... find it trivial to run over 5 enemy glass eles and rangers who erratically throw skills in their direction and are indignant that it didn't immediately drop half the squad. 🙄

[Chaba.5410]

All I got out of this thread is "organization is unfair, please nerf".

[RisingDawn.5796]

For me these kind of threads, reminds me of back in the day, when there were a lot of guilds and even open tags, generally focused on organized open field fights and some on the other stuff like sieging, upgrading, defending and capping objectives, so you would see a clash of interests on servers. 

At the end of the day though, there's not that much reward to winning matchups and it all comes down to coverage wars, which burned out a lot of players during the WvW Tournaments, due to the 24/7 nature of  winning matchups for the server status in it's tier.

Even I was invested in scouting and all that server pride, even when you saw guilds transfer in numbers, some used to get paid gold to transfer, by servers communities, before world Linkings and the additional influx of fairweather players, guilds and commanders. 

Also complained that World Linkings, were also killing the game mode and it's lack of balancing of populations, created more issues rather as a bandaid, compared to merging servers, when there was a more active population in the game mode, around the time they introduced World linkings.

There are different players and guilds, with differing playstyles, a lot of solo and groups, who usually cloud on EBG by the way, rather than join anything organized, there's some who actually roam and even scout, but it's quite rare, as there's a lot of groups and plenty of chatmanders, not just those organized open field guilds, 'boonball' squads on voice, yet 12 years later, we see these kind of debates about 'gvg' ruining the game mode rather than winning points not kills, over 24 hours 7 days of a matchup, rather than trying to find a compromise and for there to be a reason to win matchups, like during the first 3 years? 

Edited September 3 by RisingDawn.5796

[Jobber.6348]

As long as Guilds can team together every match up, it's gonna be GvG to some extent. 

On the flipside, do people really want to remove Guilding in WvW? The ramifications would call for a total overhaul of the Claim system and Guild progression which has been closely linked to WvW for a long time now. 

The solution? Bring back World teams and severly limit Transfers. Make people commit their time to their World before they are allowed to leave. 

[Gotejjeken.1267]

3 hours ago, One more for the road.8950 said:

I think you have misunderstood what is and what needs proof. Go read some more about debate techniques or what you are trying to do here. It doesn't make sense to take screenshots of overall feelings. Or maybe it's a language barrier thing.

Let me be clear, you going on the forums saying it's an echo chamber while saying that in game is different with zero evidence, is...pointless.

I got a lakefront bridge in Arizona for you too.

[One more for the road.8950]

9 minutes ago, Gotejjeken.1267 said:

Let me be clear, you going on the forums saying it's an echo chamber while saying that in game is different with zero evidence, is...pointless.

I got a lakefront bridge in Arizona for you too.

Are you... confusing people and who said what? 

[Gotejjeken.1267]

13 minutes ago, One more for the road.8950 said:

Are you... confusing people and who said what? 

 

4 hours ago, One more for the road.8950 said:

What I see in the forums and the complaining and utter belief that this is the worst thing that happened to WvW and bring servers back yesterday... doesn't at all line up with my experience in game. It's a forum thing. It's like people are playing two different games.

People are complaining about things. But WR being the core of all WvW trouble is not one of them. WR is more of a relief.

What's weird is you quoted yourself above then immediately forget what we're talking about, interesting.  

For those keeping score at home, I bolded it for you; maybe it is a language barrier thing since you apparently cannot remember what you are typing (or too many for the road 🙃). To be clear, "Echo chamber" was what the other person used but same thing here, you are saying it's a forums thing--meaning only the forums complains.  

That's not the case, there's objective evidence--called way less population activity in WvW compared to any time prior.  They don't just change a scoring algo 'for fun', they change it to mask a bunch of blowouts because blowouts are pretty bad look for PR.  

For a system that was in beta for literally like 5 years, it's not a good look.  WR turned server stacking into guild stacking, but this time with less community options, because now it literally is a giant GvG playground.  Great for the guilds, bad for everyone else.

[XenesisII.1540]

2 hours ago, devastoscz.9851 said:

I've come to realize that these WvW forums are the echo chamber for the malcontent and disgruntled; people who would rather complain here than make adjustments to their play style.

I believe this guy doesn't know what forums are for. If the tables were turned and boon strips did their job the boon ballers would be all up in these forums complaining about dying to even pugs cause hugging each other would suddenly be bad.

Don't worry we already know anet only listens to the discord echo chamber, you guys think they're doing a bang up job changing wvw to your way of play, and no one should be complaining! Yes everyone, you must now adapt and convert yourselves into boon ball zerglings, this is the way. WvW is now about GvGing and deathmatch, adapt and get use to it or leave!

Don't come here to complain, the forums are only for posting cupcake recipes. 🧁

No seriously, stop complaining and just leave if you don't like what's happening! 🍿

Edited September 3 by XenesisII.1540

[candytripn.7253]

2 hours ago, devastoscz.9851 said:

who spent hours curating their builds into synergy,

Do you mean, got their group into the same discord and said "stack on tag"?

[One more for the road.8950]

1 hour ago, Gotejjeken.1267 said:

 

What's weird is you quoted yourself above then immediately forget what we're talking about, interesting.  

For those keeping score at home, I bolded it for you; maybe it is a language barrier thing since you apparently cannot remember what you are typing (or too many for the road 🙃). To be clear, "Echo chamber" was what the other person used but same thing here, you are saying it's a forums thing--meaning only the forums complains.  

That's not the case, there's objective evidence--called way less population activity in WvW compared to any time prior.  They don't just change a scoring algo 'for fun', they change it to mask a bunch of blowouts because blowouts are pretty bad look for PR.  

For a system that was in beta for literally like 5 years, it's not a good look.  WR turned server stacking into guild stacking, but this time with less community options, because now it literally is a giant GvG playground.  Great for the guilds, bad for everyone else.

Please point to the bolded part where I was the one saying something about echo chambers that you were referring to.

The language barrier is reference to you saying that I stating what is my personal experience is, is anecdotal evidence. Anecdotal evidence is personal observations connected in a casual or non-systematic manner so YES OF COURSE it's anecdotal evidence, what is even your point. Scientific methods, anyone?

This is useless, give me a heads up when you want to discuss what I am actually talking about, not what you made up. If not, have fun derailing, I guess. Or write a guide about how to screenshot your overall feeling and experience in a game.

Edited September 3 by One more for the road.8950

[Cyninja.2954]

2 hours ago, Gotejjeken.1267 said:

Let me be clear, you going on the forums saying it's an echo chamber while saying that in game is different with zero evidence, is...pointless.

I got a lakefront bridge in Arizona for you too.

The "evidence" was already mentioned by me: activity measured in kills and deaths, as limited as we might be able to follow it, clearly shows the mode is being played.

This is a stark contrast to what some here decide to claim.

Now if you believe this or not is irrelevant. What I am saying is: IF activity is not terrible (and the developers are able to see this with actual data, not just API readouts), then there will no move back from WR.

Quote

That's not the case, there's objective evidence--called way less population activity in WvW compared to any time prior.  They don't just change a scoring algo 'for fun', they change it to mask a bunch of blowouts because blowouts are pretty bad look for PR

Your assumption on scoring is flawed, but that aside, you have not provided a shred of evidence to support your claim.

Again for the X-th time: the limited amount of data on this that we do have access to as players does NOT support your claim.

In fact the 5 tiers on EU are very alive and kicking while NA has increased in activity even. This is a stark contrast to times where T4 and T5 were basically empty and dead.

Edited September 3 by Cyninja.2954

[Mabi black.1824]

16 hours ago, One more for the road.8950 said:

WvW is a lot of things.

 

17 hours ago, One more for the road.8950 said:

So, what's the gamemode?

I'll help you understand. The game design of WVW is based on teams/servers (still at this very moment, although Anet has done its best to make the teams useless) you can freely choose what you like to do inside WVW, alone, with a group of friends, capture, defend, kill or die. Everyone, without exception, is providing points to their team/server, exactly as the design of this mode provides. the current problem is that no one gives a kitten about the team / server . The result is a useless team game mode. If WR has the absurd presumption of deleting the server reference, it is necessary to complete the work in progress and redo the design of this game (purpose/motivation) with reference to the guild.

Because if you don't, the feeling is that of participating in a meaningless game. A meaningless game, hardly has the ability to attract players, on the contrary, it is a clear expression of obfuscating and driving the player away.

Edited September 3 by Mabi black.1824

[One more for the road.8950]

3 minutes ago, Mabi black.1824 said:

 

I'll help you understand. The game design of WVW is based on teams/servers (still at this very moment, although Anet has done its best to make the teams useless) you can freely choose what you like to do inside WVW, alone, with a group of friends, capture, defend, kill or die. Everyone, without exception, is providing points to their team/server, exactly as the design of this mode provides. the current problem is that no one gives a kitten about the team / server . The result is a useless team game mode. If WR has the absurd presumption of deleting the server reference, it is necessary to complete the work in progress and redo the design of this game (purpose/motivation) with reference to the guild.

Why are you taking two sentences out of context and answering a question I never asked? I never asked to get WvW explained, I asked someone what the game mode was in regards to if not killing each other is a part of the game mode.

I understand you needed to dump your opinion on WR somehow in this thread for a reason, but why did you need to quote two sentence stubs from me taken out of context and subsequently has no coherence to do it?