If we are not gonna have new elite specs, then we need the missing core elite skills

[DarkK.7368]

It's no secret that pretty much all core elites are bad. My current concern is Elementalist. The conjured weapons are clunky, the tornado is clunky and messes with your camera zoom level, and the summon elementals... well, they can be nice for PVE, but not for competitive. And I personally don't like them so much. Elite skills were one of the reasons I liked trying elite specializations, but... I just don't like any elite. I want to go core. And i don't like core elite skills, so I'm forced into elementals.

If we are not going to have new elite specs, then at least we need the missing core elite skills. For elementalist case, the arcane and the signet one. I definitely would use the arcane one, I'm pretty sure of that.

[Liewec.2896]

totally agree that core ele needs a decent elite.

how about Signet of Arcane, when activated it could grant quickness and alacrity and its cooldown would be fairly friendly (maybe 30-45 seconds)

the passive effect could be recharging all of your skills by a tiny amount when you hit an enemy with an attack. (0.1s reduction but with no internal cooldown.)

so in the absolutely perfect situation if you cast Meteor Shower and get all 24 meteors hitting 3 targets each you'd get 7.2s cooldown reduction to all skills.

lets say you also used lava font (2 seconds CDR) and Glyph of Storm (5.5 seconds CDR), things could get pretty darn crazy! 😄

perhaps we would need to put a small internal cooldown on it! 😆 (but not much, because its entire function is to allow you to throw spells more often!)

Edited September 2 by Liewec.2896

[Mell.4873]

I will give Ranger a go.

Health skill

Signet of Healing: proc a heal on interrupt, cast signet to steal health from nearby enemies. This Synergies with the new relic and also the existing Carnivore trait. 

Elite skills

Signet of Stealth: increase vitality, active is stealth for 5 second, short cooldown. This would go well with Spear addition. 

Weakness Trap: 1000 damage, slow and weakess on enemies for 3 seconds and pulses 5 times over 5 seconds. Similar to frost trap but with damage upfront. 

 

[Dadnir.5038]

The issue with this kind of suggestion is that revenant would get nothing and the devs can't have a profession left out.

This is basically the reason we get "new" weapons instead of new utility skills.

I understand the appeal of getting those missing skills but there is no real point in introducing new things when they could just fix what already exist.

In case of the elementalist, FGS is a great tool that's only mediocre due to the way "conjure" work. Make it work the same way than an engineer's kit and every single elementalist will only ever slot FGS as elite skill (and be happy to do so).

In case of the elite transformation skills... Well they should be removed from the game and replaced by skills that don't lock you out of your utility skills.

Edited September 3 by Dadnir.5038

[bq pd.2148]

32 minutes ago, Dadnir.5038 said:

The issue with this kind of suggestion is that revenant would get nothing and the devs can't have a profession left out.

classes are missing so many elite/healing skills, that if they were to get all the missing ones i am sure that rev could either:

• get a new core elite
  or
• get additional utilities for their core legends, so they can adapt with them a little better by swapping some of them

                                                                                                         
given that thief is missing elite signet as well as preparation heal/elite:

elite signet: signets are always nice, buttons you dont need to press! the other thief signet already cover a lot of things in their passives, maybe higher endurance regen or stealth duration given that it has to compete with daggerstorm. for active i would like to gain some stacks of unblockable.

preparations i don't really care as i likely won't use them regardless of effect, the portal being the only exception as the 3s delay mechanic doesn't really come into play.

Edited September 3 by bq pd.2148

[DarkK.7368]

3 minutes ago, Dadnir.5038 said:

The issue with this kind of suggestion is that revenant would get nothing and the devs can't have a profession left out.

This is basically the reason we get "new" weapons instead of new utility skills.

I understand the appeal of getting those missing skills but there is no real point in introducing new things when they could just fix what already exist.

In case of the elementalist, FGS is a great tool that's only mediocre due to the way "conjure" work. Make it work the same way than an engineer's kit and every single elementalist will only ever slot FGS as elite skill (and be happy to do so).

It's just the opposite. Revenant is the only core profession with 4 elites (4 legends). All core professions have only 3 elite skills! So this wouldn't put revenants "left out", it makes other professions catch revenant. I could aggree to give only 1 missing to also have 4, instead of give two... But revenants can have TWO elites because of swap mechanic, while all other professions can only use 1 elite! Also Revenants were always limited by variety. Yes, they have only 4 core sets to choose, while other professions have 5... but revenants can choose to use 2 sets of utilites at the same time. So I don't think it's really "Lefting out" revenants giving 2 new elites to each profession. It would be nice to also give them something but I can't think of it...

And yes, updating current elites would also be better. I would love to use the tornado if it wasn't clunky.

[Terrorangel.1526]

I agree, the core professions need some attention and new skills would be nice. Doesn't have to be limited to elite skills. Guild Wars has a ton of skills to offer which can used for inspiration. But to prevent the "it's too much balancing" argument - just some new elite skills would be very nice.

[Jobber.6348]

I would like Revenants to get a new Legend altogether and for Engineer to get new Kits. 

 

[Dadnir.5038]

2 hours ago, DarkK.7368 said:

It's just the opposite. Revenant is the only core profession with 4 elites (4 legends). All core professions have only 3 elite skills! So this wouldn't put revenants "left out", it makes other professions catch revenant. I could aggree to give only 1 missing to also have 4, instead of give two... But revenants can have TWO elites because of swap mechanic, while all other professions can only use 1 elite! Also Revenants were always limited by variety. Yes, they have only 4 core sets to choose, while other professions have 5... but revenants can choose to use 2 sets of utilites at the same time. So I don't think it's really "Lefting out" revenants giving 2 new elites to each profession. It would be nice to also give them something but I can't think of it...

And yes, updating current elites would also be better. I would love to use the tornado if it wasn't clunky.

Revenant is also the only profession that do not have access to racial skills (Which is 4 elite skills for norns and typically 3 for other races).

Revenant also have only 5 skills per legend while other profession typically have 6 skills per utility type (Engineer being an outlier with 7).

Revenant only have 4 core legend while other professions typically have 5 kind of utility skills to choose from (enginner being an outlier again with 4 like revenant).

Revenant are also locked into the legend they use while other professions can take any utility they wish for.

So, no, Revenant can't be left out when they introduce new content and introducing those skills is undeniably "new content".

They could go with bq pd idea but that would be nothing more than a bandaid on a festering wound.

That's why fixing what already exist is the better solution while leaving things as they are is the devs' solution (because what nobody use don't affect the balance of the game anyway).

Edited September 3 by Dadnir.5038

[Teknomancer.4895]

4 hours ago, Dadnir.5038 said:

I understand the appeal of getting those missing skills but there is no real point in introducing new things when they could just fix what already exist.

My hope is that the Core specs will start getting some attention of their own, instead of "incidental" attention in the context of working on something else (New Thing X causes unintended interaction with Core Thing Y, etc).

Two expansions into their current approach of "new storyline plus upgrading what already exists," we can see the pool of options running a bit low:

• SotO - They added pre-existing weapons to classes that didn't yet have access to them.
• JW - They gave everyone access to use the same pre-existing weapon in a new way.
• Both - They changed pre-existing mounts to allow access to/use of them in a new way.

That first one can/will probably be revisited until all professions have full access to all of the pre-existing weapons, but that well will run dry before too long. There's plenty in Core that could use fixes/updates/upgrades, but in terms of what could plausibly be a marquee feature used to hype a new expansion, there's just not a lot left to choose from. Updating Core and/or racial elites is one possible option; updating the Core profession mechanic skills (F1-F5) skills is another possibility.

Yes Revenant does complicate the equation since it's not technically a "Core" profession. But if now they're only updating stuff that already exists, there is a not-quite-new Legend they could go with.

Edited September 3 by Teknomancer.4895
clarity, grammar

[Ovalkvadratcylinder.9365]

What if when anet gives us the missing core elites, they only work 50% of the time and the other 50 they turn you into a lich?

[Dadnir.5038]

36 minutes ago, Teknomancer.4895 said:

... that well will run dry before too long.

With 1 new weapon every 6 months rate, they still have at least 3 years in front of them before they start to feel cramped (warrior have the most weapons covered but still lack: land trident, land harpoon gun, pistol, shortbow, scepter and focus). 

Even then, I believe they could start introducing unarmed skillsets and if they really want they can probably launch 1 unarmed style per x-pack for years on end.

And, if it's not enough, they can probably create another skill slot like the mount skill slot that would give the player access to a variety of kits.

Their imagination would probably run dry faster than the well.

[DarkK.7368]

49 minutes ago, Dadnir.5038 said:

With 1 new weapon every 6 months rate, they still have at least 3 years in front of them before they start to feel cramped (warrior have the most weapons covered but still lack: land trident, land harpoon gun, pistol, shortbow, scepter and focus). 

Even then, I believe they could start introducing unarmed skillsets and if they really want they can probably launch 1 unarmed style per x-pack for years on end.

And, if it's not enough, they can probably create another skill slot like the mount skill slot that would give the player access to a variety of kits.

Their imagination would probably run dry faster than the well.

Fighting styles is the key. By default, your character uses "default" style for all weapons, a new slot like a relic. When a new style is slotted, your weapon skills change (if they programmed that style for that weapon), so now each weapon will be able to have infinite sets of skills for more customization without adding new weapons. I would tbh love that. You love some weapon and some class, but you dislike how it plays? Now more ways to play it!

[Panda.1967]

7 hours ago, Dadnir.5038 said:

The issue with this kind of suggestion is that revenant would get nothing and the devs can't have a profession left out

Easy solution… kill 3 birds with 1 stone.

1: add all missing healing/elite skills to core
2: rework racial skills to make all races have 1 heal, 3 utility, & 1 elite, set these as everyone’s default skills for new characters.
3: Revenant’s get a new legend that simply gives them their racial skills.

Edited September 3 by Panda.1967

[igmolicious.5986]

Oooh! I'll throw out my ideas for ele elite types that are missing:

Ether Breach - Arcane - Creates an ether breach that pulses 3 times, stealing 1 boon from up to 3 enemies and pulls 1 condition from up to 5 allies within 600 range each pulse, then explodes granting the stolen boons to up to 5 allies and inflicts pulled conditions on up to 3 enemies in 600 range. Breach can be targetted and attacked to destroy it early.

Signet of Elements - Signet - Passive: Attacks inflict condition based on previous attunement (fire 3s burn, water 1s chill, air 1s blind, earth 5s bleed -- primary target only), Active: Attacks for the next 8s inflict all 4 elemental conditions (grants fire, frost, shocking, and magnetic auras for 2s when using Written in Stone).

Edited September 3 by igmolicious.5986

[Dadnir.5038]

1 hour ago, Panda.1967 said:

Easy solution… kill 3 birds with 1 stone.

1: add all missing healing/elite skills to core
2: rework racial skills to make all races have 1 heal, 3 utility, & 1 elite, set these as everyone’s default skills for new characters.
3: Revenant’s get a new legend that simply gives them their racial skills.

Racial skills are abandoned content meant to be nothing more than flavor since 2012, there is no way the devs will spend even a single minute of their time on them. They only ever touched them to nerf them when someone inadvertently found a use for those.

[draxynnic.3719]

Revenants aren't a reason not to introduce new utility skills - create a new core legend for revenants. Done. Granted, there would be the issue that the new legend wouldn't have a traitline that was designed for it, but the legend could be designed to synergise with the existing traitlines - people don't always match their traitlines to their legends anyway.

The current approach of focusing on weapons is leaving some professions behind as it is. Engineer gets less out of a new weapon than other professions due to only being able to use one weaponset at once while kits take the place that weaponswapping does for other professions. Elementalist, ironically, also feels like it's getting a bad deal due to ArenaNet cutting corners when presented with having to make that many skills for one profession - an expansion that gives elementalist a set of well thought out utilities might well benefit them more than another weapon that is built around all four elements using a variant of the same gimmick that doesn't work well with the elite specialisations. A more balanced approach would probably be more equitable in the long run over just releasing a new weapon every year.

[Teknomancer.4895]

15 hours ago, draxynnic.3719 said:

Revenants aren't a reason not to introduce new utility skills - create a new core legend for revenants. Done. Granted, there would be the issue that the new legend wouldn't have a traitline that was designed for it, but the legend could be designed to synergise with the existing traitlines - people don't always match their traitlines to their legends anyway.

That just makes me think even more that if that happens at all, it's likely to be Scarlet and not just because it already semi-exists. Scarlet happened in not-quite Core, but before the first expansion which introduced the Revenant class so yeah the timing is spot-on.

As for synergizing with existing traitlines, who better for that approach than Scarlet Briar, of all people? She graduated all of the Asuran colleges not only Synergetics, directly experienced the Eternal Alchemy via Omadd's machine, convinced hostile factions into joining with their not-natural allies in order to further her own schemes and more. Whether driven by Mordremoth, madness or both, I'd say she was relatively competent at synergizing.

Edited September 4 by Teknomancer.4895
redundant

[Terrorangel.1526]

As for core legends for revenant, there are also a lot more to be found in the first Guild Wars game. Throughout all campaigns are characters, friends and foes, who still have an impact on the game. For example Keiran Thackerey, ancestor of Logan Thackerey, or the heroes accompanying your character in the game: Ogden Stonehealer, Vekk, Thalkora, Koss, Zhed Shadowhoof, Captain (General) Morgahn, the list goes on. There are more than enough possible characters for new legends.

That being said, an additional core legend for revenant would be adequate to "compensate" the missing ability to choose from utility skills freely and therefore not getting any.

But: I don't mind if those things are added one after the other and not all at once.

The team/teams working on the skills should take their time for each and every profession and give every skill its purpose. Every skill type should have its representation in every slot (heal - utility - elite).  Sure. Some professions will have to wait a little bit longer, but in the end you can play whatever you want and getting more options for one professions does not equal a loss for another one. Or release a core legend for revenant first, then elite skills, then heal skills and after that utility. One after the other, however you want. But the stream of new skills should be consistent and quite (reasonably) fast paced.

Wanting too much and all at once will postpone any change into the far future. Release something once a month or something impactful every two months, but give regular feedback and work progress every 2 weeks. 

[draxynnic.3719]

I think Scarlet's unlikely because ArenaNet have already hinted that the PC doesn't like to channel the legends of their personal antagonists. Probably with good reason.

I also don't think that henchmen or heroes from GW1 are particularly likely, since almost by definition they played second fiddle to the GW1PC.

Some figures I could see include Lord Odran, Zinn, Asgeir, and Svanir. Any hypothetical expansion that did introduce a new legend, though, would probably make the legend something that tied into the expansion somehow.

[petespri.6548]

On 9/2/2024 at 12:56 PM, DarkK.7368 said:

It's no secret that pretty much all core elites are bad. My current concern is Elementalist. The conjured weapons are clunky, the tornado is clunky and messes with your camera zoom level, and the summon elementals... well, they can be nice for PVE, but not for competitive. And I personally don't like them so much. Elite skills were one of the reasons I liked trying elite specializations, but... I just don't like any elite. I want to go core. And i don't like core elite skills, so I'm forced into elementals.

If we are not going to have new elite specs, then at least we need the missing core elite skills. For elementalist case, the arcane and the signet one. I definitely would use the arcane one, I'm pretty sure of that.

How About: Ascalonian Army of the Arcane: summon a sword and shield warrior, an arcane archer, and an arcane mage to fight by your side for a short time.  All ascalonian blue ghosts of course.  Give them stuns, aoe, ans give warrior high toughness to tank mobs

[Panda.1967]

7 hours ago, Terrorangel.1526 said:

For example Keiran Thackerey, ancestor of Logan Thackerey, or the heroes accompanying your character in the game: Ogden Stonehealer, Vekk, Thalkora, Koss, Zhed Shadowhoof, Captain (General) Morgahn, the list goes on.

Ogden and Koss are a definite no… they are both still alive… though “alive” is a rather loose term when it comes to Koss… Tahlkora is also not an option for the same reason as Koss…

General Morgahn is probably a no go too given that nearly everyone who was involved in the Battle of Jahai was later raised in Palawa Jokko’s army when he returned or cursed to have their soul wander the desert. He is unlikely to be residing in the mists making it impossible for a revenant to channel him.

[Terrorangel.1526]

3 hours ago, Panda.1967 said:

Ogden and Koss are a definite no… they are both still alive… though “alive” is a rather loose term when it comes to Koss… Tahlkora is also not an option for the same reason as Koss…

General Morgahn is probably a no go too given that nearly everyone who was involved in the Battle of Jahai was later raised in Palawa Jokko’s army when he returned or cursed to have their soul wander the desert. He is unlikely to be residing in the mists making it impossible for a revenant to channel him.

I was using them as examples for heroes and didn't mean to point out anyone specific.

Then again, even Mallyx, a demon who served Abaddon, can be channeled as legend. I don't know about the lore and personally I don't care about "probability". If the devs want to, they can make something up or find excuses why a certain someone or something can be channeled.

Maybe you have some input for legends yourself.

[Teknomancer.4895]

9 hours ago, draxynnic.3719 said:

I think Scarlet's unlikely because ArenaNet have already hinted that the PC doesn't like to channel the legends of their personal antagonists. Probably with good reason.

Shiro and Mallyx always seemed rather antagonistic to me... 🤷‍♂️

We only really saw that hint once though. In this case I'd write off that "doesn't like to channel" attitude as Mai Trin maybe being too compromised by her earlier allegiance to Scarlet to pull it off. Or perhaps Scarlet hadn't been in the Mists long enough to be controllable by such means. Or both. In any case Mai Trin wasn't experienced/powerful enough as a Revenant to flip the script on Scarlet and call the shots instead of following orders from Scarlet (directly or indirectly).

But meh, you're probably right.

Edited September 5 by Teknomancer.4895
clarity, grammar

[draxynnic.3719]

13 hours ago, Teknomancer.4895 said:

Shiro and Mallyx always seemed rather antagonistic to me... 🤷‍♂️

We only really saw that hint once though. In this case I'd write off that "doesn't like to channel" attitude as Mai Trin maybe being too compromised by her earlier allegiance to Scarlet to pull it off. Or perhaps Scarlet hadn't been in the Mists long enough to be controllable by such means. Or both. In any case Mai Trin wasn't experienced/powerful enough as a Revenant to flip the script on Scarlet and call the shots instead of following orders from Scarlet (directly or indirectly).

But meh, you're probably right.

I can see there being a difference between having a historical villain in your head and having someone who you fought yourself.

The hint came at the start of Season 4 where revenant PCs break out of prison by channelling Joko (indicating, incidentally, that Joko could be alive still undead and still have a legend to channel), but express "never again". I suspect the difference is that an antagonistic historical legend can pretty much only make vague threats that the revenant can shrug off fairly easily (and even then, it's mostly Mallyx - Shiro is mostly fairly chummy apart from the "the emperor feared my great power... do you?" line, and it's possible that question wasn't intended as a threat even if the PC interprets it as such), but a personal antagonist can make it, well, personal. Both Scarlet and Joko had a liking for playing mind games, the PC probably doesn't particularly want either of them sitting in his or her head constantly gloating over events that the PC would prefer to move on from. Mai Trin seemed to have a reasonably good handle on the Scarlet legend after the initial confrontation, but Mai Trin regarded Scarlet as an ally, if perhaps a somewhat abusive one, rather than an enemy. 

That's the Watsonian reasoning, anyway, which is mostly speculation on my part but seems to fit with what we know of how legends operate, including that in lore they seem to be more communicative than what we experience in-game. The Doylist viewpoint is probably that ArenaNet doesn't want people using Joko's legend against Joko or Scarlet's legend against Scarlet.