Willbender DPS output really needs to be taken care of and Necro just needs full class nerfing

[WingSwipe.3084]

9 hours ago, Flowki.7194 said:

All games is just the same kitten, necro/mesmer/gaurd. Its so fking degen the amount of face tank going on.. or the "you can't attack me for 15 seconds even though I can't even dodge"..

Don’t you know it’s a L2P issue Flowki, it’s what all the guard mains say on the forum so it must be true. 🤣

The Mesmer players state that Virtuoso hasn’t been seen in mAT yet so it’s totally not one of the strongest builds the game has ever seen. 🤪

And having to burn through 45k damage worth of health to down Necros is fair and balanced don’t you know. They have no defensives they can pop like other professions. 🤡

[Flowki.7194]

3 hours ago, WingSwipe.3084 said:

Don’t you know it’s a L2P issue Flowki, it’s what all the guard mains say on the forum so it must be true. 🤣

The Mesmer players state that Virtuoso hasn’t been seen in mAT yet so it’s totally not one of the strongest builds the game has ever seen. 🤪

And having to burn through 45k damage worth of health to down Necros is fair and balanced don’t you know. They have no defensives they can pop like other professions. 🤡

 

Heres a little story for you. Thanks to all the rev nerfs, which took out my main builds that nobody ever complained about, Ive had to start playing a group fight renegade spec, which is not at all designed for duling (0 stab, no dueling sigils etc). Me and a mes got into some smack talk, mostly my fault, but we ended up dueling, he only won 5-4. What made it funny is im in s3 so he was smack talking on that (Ive never sat this low), and he is p1. I was using LOS becuase mesmer? But that was not allowed on his terms. I stopped using los, got use to his style, and in the last fight he ran los abusing/kiting me, fking hilarious. That is the type of player who was 20x WB/virt for every 1 vindi, all through vindi meta, complaining how vindi was a massive problem. Death drop was a problem ofc, but it was so clear the uptick in virts/wbs during vindi meta showed that vindis skill floor/risk was exactly where it should be. This is a fotm playerbase, who only fotm the lower effort/risk specs, which are now bloated to high heaven. Nothing stands in their way now becuase the copers have won.

 

I knew reaper was a problem for other specs (Ventari really gave reaper a run for its money in group fights) but how to fix it withought destroying it I don't know. I do know it is beyound tolerable to dodge most of their openers, and still be unable to starve them for getting into shroud. So on herald, my reward for dodging/starving life force.. is that he gets shroud anyway, and I have to kite it out? Seems legit? If I miss a single dodge, or miss-mandedge energy even slightly on herald, Im dead, in 3 seconds. I shouldnt be suprised to be in s3 when those are the stakes.

 

 

Edited October 19 by Flowki.7194

[Vancho.8750]

3 hours ago, Flowki.7194 said:

 

Heres a little story for you. Thanks to all the rev nerfs, which took out my main builds that nobody ever complained about, Ive had to start playing a group fight renegade spec, which is not at all designed for duling (0 stab, no dueling sigils etc). Me and a mes got into some smack talk, mostly my fault, but we ended up dueling, he only won 5-4. What made it funny is im in s3 so he was smack talking on that (Ive never sat this low), and he is p1. I was using LOS becuase mesmer? But that was not allowed on his terms. I stopped using los, got use to his style, and in the last fight he ran los abusing/kiting me, fking hilarious. That is the type of player who was 20x WB/virt for every 1 vindi, all through vindi meta, complaining how vindi was a massive problem. Death drop was a problem ofc, but it was so clear the uptick in virts/wbs during vindi meta showed that vindis skill floor/risk was exactly where it should be. This is a fotm playerbase, who only fotm the lower effort/risk specs, which are now bloated to high heaven. Nothing stands in their way now becuase the copers have won.

 

I knew reaper was a problem for other specs (Ventari really gave reaper a run for its money in group fights) but how to fix it withought destroying it I don't know. I do know it is beyound tolerable to dodge most of their openers, and still be unable to starve them for getting into shroud. So on herald, my reward for dodging/starving life force.. is that he gets shroud anyway, and I have to kite it out? Seems legit? If I miss a single dodge, or miss-mandedge energy even slightly on herald, Im dead, in 3 seconds. I shouldnt be suprised to be in s3 when those are the stakes.

 

 

For Reaper Anet should just remove the Condi Reaper AGAIN.
I bet all those tourney boys wanted it back for some stupid reason, cause like 2 people could play the power build on tourneys but the shiro/thief/wb mains are kitten at anything that doesn't have like 15 years of stacked advantages in ganks.
I expect them batter the whole spec at some point and buff Scourge to kitten again cause WVW devs and kitten.

[lol.9027]

Honestly, people seem to complain about every class that isnt there own. Necros are too tanky, Guardians have too much burst dmg, Mesmers have too much invul, theefs have too much stealth.... and so on. I mean, no kitten sherlock, different classes can do different things. When playing PvP, hopefully you will encounter a lot of enemies that can do stuff your character cant. Otherwise there is no reason for having different classes.

If there is more than one class you have a problem with, chances are high the problem is you not the game. Is GW2 perfectly balanced right now? No. But it is far from the unbalanced kitten show people claim. The game right now is perfectly playable. Yes Anet should tweak some stuff. But we are talking about slight balance adjustments, not single classes dominating the whole game. So maybe stop being so dramatic and start giving reasonable, thoughtfull feedback instead of "i recently lost to this class, therefore nerf it".

 

[ArthurDent.9538]

3 hours ago, lol.9027 said:

Honestly, people seem to complain about every class that isnt there own. Necros are too tanky, Guardians have too much burst dmg, Mesmers have too much invul, theefs have too much stealth.... and so on. I mean, no kitten sherlock, different classes can do different things. When playing PvP, hopefully you will encounter a lot of enemies that can do stuff your character cant. Otherwise there is no reason for having different classes.

If there is more than one class you have a problem with, chances are high the problem is you not the game. Is GW2 perfectly balanced right now? No. But it is far from the unbalanced kitten show people claim. The game right now is perfectly playable. Yes Anet should tweak some stuff. But we are talking about slight balance adjustments, not single classes dominating the whole game. So maybe stop being so dramatic and start giving reasonable, thoughtfull feedback instead of "i recently lost to this class, therefore nerf it".

 

Way too sensible. I want to be angry!

[Gotejjeken.1267]

4 hours ago, lol.9027 said:

If there is more than one class you have a problem with, chances are high the problem is you not the game. Is GW2 perfectly balanced right now? No. But it is far from the unbalanced kitten show people claim. The game right now is perfectly playable. Yes Anet should tweak some stuff. But we are talking about slight balance adjustments, not single classes dominating the whole game. So maybe stop being so dramatic and start giving reasonable, thoughtfull feedback instead of "i recently lost to this class, therefore nerf it".

Lemme guess, you main...thief.  

[Sigmoid.7082]

4 hours ago, lol.9027 said:

Honestly, people seem to complain about every class that isnt there own. Necros are too tanky, Guardians have too much burst dmg, Mesmers have too much invul, theefs have too much stealth.... and so on. I mean, no kitten sherlock, different classes can do different things. When playing PvP, hopefully you will encounter a lot of enemies that can do stuff your character cant. Otherwise there is no reason for having different classes.

If there is more than one class you have a problem with, chances are high the problem is you not the game. Is GW2 perfectly balanced right now? No. But it is far from the unbalanced kitten show people claim. The game right now is perfectly playable. Yes Anet should tweak some stuff. But we are talking about slight balance adjustments, not single classes dominating the whole game. So maybe stop being so dramatic and start giving reasonable, thoughtfull feedback instead of "i recently lost to this class, therefore nerf it".

 

 

+1. I still stand by the opinion that players are far more concerned with what other classes can do rather than what their own does. 

[Firebeard.1746]

I dunno just had a warrior close to 1-shot me even putting my invulns up. 

[arazoth.7290]

5 hours ago, Vancho.8750 said:

For Reaper Anet should just remove the Condi Reaper AGAIN.
I bet all those tourney boys wanted it back for some stupid reason, cause like 2 people could play the power build on tourneys but the shiro/thief/wb mains are kitten at anything that doesn't have like 15 years of stacked advantages in ganks.
I expect them batter the whole spec at some point and buff Scourge to kitten again cause WVW devs and kitten.

if removed, it won't keep certain others in check, balanced nerfs and not overkill 

[Flowki.7194]

1 hour ago, Firebeard.1746 said:

I dunno just had a warrior close to 1-shot me even putting my invulns up. 

That happened to me twice yesterday on herald, phased onto lonecap while he was attacking somebody, and two times in a row, straight into a 1 shot. Still, I just learned not to jump withough los to see whats being cast, and did better after that. It is obnoxious level damage, but they fold fast for mistakes/have low attrition for that kind of damage, which is far fking better than this virt/wb/reaper bs. I'd rather face high damage high risk any day.

 

 

Edited Saturday at 11:06 PM by Flowki.7194

[arazoth.7290]

1 hour ago, Flowki.7194 said:

That happened to me twice yesterday on herald, phased onto lonecap

 

 

Like this ? 😁

[Flowki.7194]

22 minutes ago, arazoth.7290 said:

Like this ? 😁

Just like that 😆

 

[WingSwipe.3084]

10 hours ago, Firebeard.1746 said:

I dunno just had a warrior close to 1-shot me even putting my invulns up. 

God i love signet of might.

Or was it pure invuls?

[lol.9027]

11 hours ago, Gotejjeken.1267 said:

Lemme guess, you main...thief.  

My most played class in pvp is elementalist. I also play engineer, revenant, necro, warrior and guardian.

The wide variety of classes i play is probably the main reason why i have a unique outlook on this.

Every class has a very different "rhythm" in which they want to fight (engage, disengage, kite...). The main reason why people feel the enemy class is opressive is because they let themselves get pressured into fighting with the enemies rhythm. Forcing/baiting the opponent to fight within your classes rhythm is what makes fights seem easy all of a sudden. If you can do that well, you will start winning fights with every class no matter the enemies class.

[Trevor Boyer.6524]

18 hours ago, lol.9027 said:

Honestly, people seem to complain about every class that isnt there own.

Except for when everyone is unanimously agreeing that 2-3 certain things are just grossly overperforming.

That isn't class bias dude. That's the community identifying things that need to be fixed.

[WingSwipe.3084]

16 minutes ago, Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

Except for when everyone is unanimously agreeing that 2-3 certain things are just grossly overperforming.

That isn't class bias dude. That's the community identifying things that need to be fixed.

This, issue is that the community often mistake what aspect of an over performing profession that actually is the issue.

That aspect is what got warrior spear and staff nuked and not SPB that was abusing these tools.

[Trevor Boyer.6524]

5 minutes ago, WingSwipe.3084 said:

This, issue is that the community often mistake what aspect of an over performing profession that actually is the issue.

That aspect is what got warrior spear and staff nuked and not SPB that was abusing these tools.

I see what you're trying to say and in most scenarios I'd agree.

But in the case of recent spellbreaker content that was released, it had landed firmly into the T4 God Tier level of overperformance. It needed the spear, the staff, and spellbreaker in general to be nerfed. It really did.

Even after all those nerfs, it's still the strongest side node. I don't know what else to say man.

[WingSwipe.3084]

35 minutes ago, Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

I see what you're trying to say and in most scenarios I'd agree.

But in the case of recent spellbreaker content that was released, it had landed firmly into the T4 God Tier level of overperformance. It needed the spear, the staff, and spellbreaker in general to be nerfed. It really did.

Even after all those nerfs, it's still the strongest side node. I don't know what else to say man.

Oh yeah, spear nerfs were inevitable.

But the degree and severity were too harsh. The things that were nerfed was also very strange.

SPB having a 30% damage steroid in with 275 of every power stat for free made things difficult.

[Vancho.8750]

17 hours ago, arazoth.7290 said:

if removed, it won't keep certain others in check, balanced nerfs and not overkill 

Nah, that is not an excuse ,  they should nerf the other kitten also if its problematic.
Reaper should have stayed power, necro has plenty of elite specs for conditions.
I don't want to get stupid nerfs on my power build cause the "balancers" decided one day that the wrong things make the condi build overperform like kittening always.  

[NecroSummonsMors.7816]

36 minutes ago, Vancho.8750 said:

Nah, that is not an excuse ,  they should nerf the other kitten also if its problematic.
Reaper should have stayed power, necro has plenty of elite specs for conditions.
I don't want to get stupid nerfs on my power build cause the "balancers" decided one day that the wrong things make the condi build overperform like kittening always.  

Reaper should have stayed power, I agree with that too. But lets ask the question why any other condi spec gets trashed unless it's a condi reaper? Simple: core condi necro cannot really compete at all rightnow, scourge is dead in pvp, and harbinger cannot really gets serious dmg without support if there's a heavy antiprojectile/blocks comp or heavy burst one.

This leaves 1 option: do condi dmg with anything that cannot be projectile blocked and that also has a proper way to defend the health bar -> Condi Reaper, anything else will struggle way too much for the damage output it has.

If you add to this the fact that weaking shroud got the corrupt part removed when in reality it should have been the weakness( same goes for dagger 5) , the fact that scepter is holdback by depending on a GM trait and that fear is almost useless vs those classes that necro could seriously punish since they vomit stab or resistance or both, you get why condi reaper. Also it is complicated to decide what to do with death magic since it overperforms on reaper and harbinger but it is ok on core but trash on scourge.

So they should nerf condi reaper without destroying power one and at the same time make viable core, scourge and harbinger(without making another obscenely broken build), and for a company that has the record to swing pendulum from broken op to trash build...you know what you can expect lol

Ideally I would like to see: power reaper dps or reaper bunker for solo hold point, power or condi dps harbi, condi core bleed/poison or fear viable, scourge support or scourge condi. Lets face it, it aint gonna happen ever xD

I'd like to see this type of variety on every single class, but it very complicated to reach

Edited Sunday at 04:35 PM by NecroSummonsMors.7816

[Flowki.7194]

1 hour ago, NecroSummonsMors.7816 said:

Reaper should have stayed power, I agree with that too. But lets ask the question why any other condi spec gets trashed unless it's a condi reaper? Simple: core condi necro cannot really compete at all rightnow, scourge is dead in pvp, and harbinger cannot really gets serious dmg without support if there's a heavy antiprojectile/blocks comp or heavy burst one.

This leaves 1 option: do condi dmg with anything that cannot be projectile blocked and that also has a proper way to defend the health bar -> Condi Reaper, anything else will struggle way too much for the damage output it has.

If you add to this the fact that weaking shroud got the corrupt part removed when in reality it should have been the weakness( same goes for dagger 5) , the fact that scepter is holdback by depending on a GM trait and that fear is almost useless vs those classes that necro could seriously punish since they vomit stab or resistance or both, you get why condi reaper. Also it is complicated to decide what to do with death magic since it overperforms on reaper and harbinger but it is ok on core but trash on scourge.

So they should nerf condi reaper without destroying power one and at the same time make viable core, scourge and harbinger(without making another obscenely broken build), and for a company that has the record to swing pendulum from broken op to trash build...you know what you can expect lol

Ideally I would like to see: power reaper dps or reaper bunker for solo hold point, power or condi dps harbi, condi core bleed/poison or fear viable, scourge support or scourge condi. Lets face it, it aint gonna happen ever xD

I'd like to see this type of variety on every single class, but it very complicated to reach

 

Reaper has good range pressure/control, the speed relic or rune in cunjunction with double ranged weapons also means getting ontop of a kiting reaper isnt a fast deal, tps aside. Once you do get close, shroud+wurm+spectral, and boon curruption>CC is also not a shabby defensive. On the other hand, reaper is a strong melee spec, so it can rush multiple specs that are not as strong up close <CC spam>. Thats a pretty solid all rounder IMO, and it isn't that uncomon to see reapers going sides either. Despite all the mentioned, what bugs me the most is you have to burn multiple dodge/cd's to try and starve the reaper of shroud on approach, but it gets shroud anyway. Even if it is only 1/4--1/3 duration, it is enough to cycle abilities, and you now have less CDs to deal with it. Iv'e also tried tanking more of the openers to save attrition, but that just gives them more shroud, and more time for CD resets.

 

I'm pretty settled on the idea that reaper is getting life force too easily in general, which is too much in conjunction with the above. That should also be a consideration for all potential necro builds going forward, its ability to apply CC/dps on both weapon sets, and at decent ranges.

Edited Sunday at 05:41 PM by Flowki.7194

[lol.9027]

8 hours ago, Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

Except for when everyone is unanimously agreeing that 2-3 certain things are just grossly overperforming.

That isn't class bias dude. That's the community identifying things that need to be fixed.

Firt of all, people are not agreeing on anything. In this forum, hell even in this topic poeple have mentioned like 5 or 6 different classes that overperform in their opinion.

And second, even if a lot of people would agree on something that would not make it true. If everybody said sunflowers are purple wouldnt change the fact that they are yellow. Most people are horribly bad at judging what is overperforming and what isnt. So what i am saying here is: i know a lot of people are saying the same stuff, but they are simply wrong. Just because there are a a lot of them doesnt make them less wrong.

[NecroSummonsMors.7816]

3 hours ago, Flowki.7194 said:

 

Reaper has good range pressure/control, the speed relic or rune in cunjunction with double ranged weapons also means getting ontop of a kiting reaper isnt a fast deal, tps aside. Once you do get close, shroud+wurm+spectral, and boon curruption>CC is also not a shabby defensive. On the other hand, reaper is a strong melee spec, so it can rush multiple specs that are not as strong up close <CC spam>. Thats a pretty solid all rounder IMO, and it isn't that uncomon to see reapers going sides either. Despite all the mentioned, what bugs me the most is you have to burn multiple dodge/cd's to try and starve the reaper of shroud on approach, but it gets shroud anyway. Even if it is only 1/4--1/3 duration, it is enough to cycle abilities, and you now have less CDs to deal with it. Iv'e also tried tanking more of the openers to save attrition, but that just gives them more shroud, and more time for CD resets.

 

I'm pretty settled on the idea that reaper is getting life force too easily in general, which is too much in conjunction with the above. That should also be a consideration for all potential necro builds going forward, its ability to apply CC/dps on both weapon sets, and at decent ranges.

A lot of what you say truly depends on the specific builds: trait combination, weapons and utilities, I'm not saying that is not possible to reach very high life force generation, or very high mobility builds or corrupts. It depends on the builds. For example if you run speed relic you're probably not going to go for a condi build since you would use relic of reaper, or big difference in mobility or burst capabilities when it's axe vs main hand sword, or wurm and spectral walk vs shouts for condis via the relic. As someone who plays necro, ele and engi I've been on both sides of the fight. I wouldn't necessary complain about the shroud gain when faced vs willbender or rev or warrior who shred your shroud in a matter of seconds but on the other hands playing as ele or engi vs a full shroud reaper can seem for sure frustrating. Same goes when you pick a necro build with low unblockables and you suddendly face a class that spam blocks like dragonhunter or spb with staff, it can be frustrating. I mean the situation is pretty mixed. Infact I would argue that trait combination, amulets and utilities is probably one of the most difficult things to get right, on all classes certain combos with certain spec are weak while on others are totally broken.

For now if I had to try something on condi reaper I would address chilling victory which gives shroud when u strike a chilled foe and rework rune of reaper into just causing bleed directly on shout instead of chill that then causes bleed. I would change weaking shroud GM from giving weakness on crit to the old version which basically casted the old dagger 5 skill 1 corrupt+bleed without weakness, so that it would reduce the pressure of weakness on power classes facing it. Deaths of enemies grant 10% lf so that could be looked at too, right now if take death magic that is 12%. Shroud generation could be looked at in some weapons too.

The problem is always the same, can you trust the company in making accurate shaves on the right things? Without wrecking things? Idk

And this would go for all classes and all specs, the game needs again a shave on everything overperforming and it is on all classes. The only problem is this time is ten times worse since now all specs can you use all weapons, for example the cc oppressiveness of condi reaper could really be reduced if it couldn't use torch or pistol(even though now most people use scepter)

I think as a community everybody should in good faith actually start to suggest proper shaves to the things you know that in your class are pretty broken, sure point of view on certain things might change a lot. But if as community there a serious effert on making everything viable without the need of squashing other classes, it would benefit a lot. Also this game need a test server for pvp changes, it truly desperately needs it.

Edited Sunday at 09:20 PM by NecroSummonsMors.7816
clarity of exposition, new ideas

[Flowki.7194]

4 hours ago, NecroSummonsMors.7816 said:

A lot of what you say truly depends on the specific builds: trait combination, weapons and utilities, I'm not saying that is not possible to reach very high life force generation, or very high mobility builds or corrupts. It depends on the builds. For example if you run speed relic you're probably not going to go for a condi build since you would use relic of reaper, or big difference in mobility or burst capabilities when it's axe vs main hand sword, or wurm and spectral walk vs shouts for condis via the relic. As someone who plays necro, ele and engi I've been on both sides of the fight. I wouldn't necessary complain about the shroud gain when faced vs willbender or rev or warrior who shred your shroud in a matter of seconds but on the other hands playing as ele or engi vs a full shroud reaper can seem for sure frustrating. Same goes when you pick a necro build with low unblockables and you suddendly face a class that spam blocks like dragonhunter or spb with staff, it can be frustrating. I mean the situation is pretty mixed. Infact I would argue that trait combination, amulets and utilities is probably one of the most difficult things to get right, on all classes certain combos with certain spec are weak while on others are totally broken.

For now if I had to try something on condi reaper I would address chilling victory which gives shroud when u strike a chilled foe and rework rune of reaper into just causing bleed directly on shout instead of chill that then causes bleed. I would change weaking shroud GM from giving weakness on crit to the old version which basically casted the old dagger 5 skill 1 corrupt+bleed without weakness, so that it would reduce the pressure of weakness on power classes facing it. Deaths of enemies grant 10% lf so that could be looked at too, right now if take death magic that is 12%. Shroud generation could be looked at in some weapons too.

The problem is always the same, can you trust the company in making accurate shaves on the right things? Without wrecking things? Idk

And this would go for all classes and all specs, the game needs again a shave on everything overperforming and it is on all classes. The only problem is this time is ten times worse since now all specs can you use all weapons, for example the cc oppressiveness of condi reaper could really be reduced if it couldn't use torch or pistol(even though now most people use scepter)

I think as a community everybody should in good faith actually start to suggest proper shaves to the things you know that in your class are pretty broken, sure point of view on certain things might change a lot. But if as community there a serious effert on making everything viable without the need of squashing other classes, it would benefit a lot. Also this game need a test server for pvp changes, it truly desperately needs it.

 

Well thats just it, something on reaper has to give, withought killing it as a spec vs jump specs. For me I would say shroud uptime becuase thats the struggle in my eyes on lower mobility specs it oppresses (unless youd rather lose some CC?). It still has access to 2 effective ports, which is more than Rev, or most other TP sepcs can use to jump. If you don't survive being attacked by 2 jump specs, then welcome to most other specs, who don't survive that either.. and have less CC/hp while at it.

 

WB/virt/SPB are absolutely kitten, so comparing any spec to those encounters atm is pointless.

Edited Monday at 01:22 AM by Flowki.7194

[Myror.7521]

@arazoth.7290 wait till tuesday friend then you gonna see what overkill nerf realy is xP.