Should Staff Weaver (pve) be nerfed?

[Refia Montes.3205]

SC just released the new for the most recent balance patch, with it showing that it has the best theoretical dps on both small and large.While I do think Weaver needs some dps to compensate for the reason that it has no to little cc, low health and armor as well as having a bit more complicated rotation, it needs to be down by a bit. 45k dps on Large/36k dps on small with a really large burst upfront, as well as having one of the biggest AoE skills seem absurd to me. (most especially all classes currently sit at around 30-35k~ dps on both small and large.)

[Arheundel.6451]

It seems you like benchmarks...then consider this other type of benchmark https://metabattle.com/wiki/Conquest, using your logic...all meta pvp/wvw specs should be nerfed because weaver is nowhere to be seen in those benchmarks of performance.

You talk about other classes?...like..https://metabattle.com/wiki/Mesmer? It's used everywhere with success...you never go wrong maining a mesmer, same can't be said for eles which are nothing more than a glorified raid bot pure pve garbage concept.

Have a nice day!

[ArmageddonAsh.6430]

So a class does well in FULL zerk, in a single mode which isnt even that important and it needs to be nerfed? why exactly? Given that its trash level everywhere else. I am sure Ele will be nerfed some more, because you know. Why not? The problem will be, rather than nerf Staff. They ill just keep nerfing the actual spec making it even weaker for those of us that dont run full zerk staff...

[sokeenoppa.5384]

Nerfing Staff isnt good idea, it is already underperforming in pvp.Edit: it can Be nerfed little IF it gets huge Buff in pvp

[Zaraki.5784]

No/15char

[Amineo.8951]

The only class that needs nerf is Mesmer and the one that needs buffs is Thief with it's garbage Deadeye elite spec.

[sokeenoppa.5384]

@Amineo.8951 said:The only class that needs nerf is Mesmer and the one that needs buffs is Thief with it's garbage Deadeye elite spec.

Deadeye is tricky to balance, it has Bad sustain dmg but it has a great burst If set up is done right.Tough im up for thief buffs coz its My main :D

[Edu.6984]

Make staff do less dmg, but be easier to land the skills on players. Players won't sit in a lava font like scripted npcs

[Feanor.2358]

@Refia Montes.3205 said:SC just released the new for the most recent balance patch, with it showing that it has the best theoretical dps on both small and large.While I do think Weaver needs some dps to compensate for the reason that it has no to little cc, low health and armor as well as having a bit more complicated rotation, it needs to be down by a bit. 45k dps on Large/36k dps on small with a really large burst upfront, as well as having one of the biggest AoE skills seem absurd to me. (most especially all classes currently sit at around 30-35k~ dps on both small and large.)

Benchmarks only measure potential. Weaver has the largest one, which is fine considering its potential is the least reliable one. Interrupts, retal (low health pool + high numbers of hits per second), boss movement, forced movement... Benchmarks measure none of these.

[sokeenoppa.5384]

@xDudisx.5914 said:Make staff do less dmg, but be easier to land the skills on players. Players won't sit in a lava font like scripted npcs

That could work, or keep The Bad PvP dmg where it is right now, but load Staff with lot of More utility

[Feanor.2358]

@xDudisx.5914 said:Make staff do less dmg, but be easier to land the skills on players. Players won't sit in a lava font like scripted npcs

No thanks. The game is full of boring no-brainer builds. Please don't ruin the one fun build out there.

[Edu.6984]

@Feanor.2358 said:

@xDudisx.5914 said:Make staff do less dmg, but be easier to land the skills on players. Players won't sit in a lava font like scripted npcs

No thanks. The game is full of boring no-brainer builds. Please don't ruin the one fun build out there.

Fun build? It is not viable in pvp. In wvw outside of a zerg fight you won't land 90% of the dmg because people just walk away from lava fonts and meteor shower.

[ArmageddonAsh.6430]

@Feanor.2358 said:No thanks. The game is full of boring no-brainer builds. Please don't ruin the one fun build out there.

you mean the build that is useless in PvP, useless in WvW unless you're in a zerg and will still miss a LOT. It has TWO viable places - WvW Zerg fights and Raids. Anywhere else, its wasted.

[Edu.6984]

@Feanor.2358 said:

@xDudisx.5914 said:Make staff do less dmg, but be easier to land the skills on players. Players won't sit in a lava font like scripted npcs

No thanks. The game is full of boring no-brainer builds. Please don't ruin the one fun build out there.

Fun build? It is not viable in pvp. In wvw outside of a zerg fight you won't land 90% of the dmg because people just walk away from lava fonts and meteor shower.

[ghettogenius.9174]

See this is why ele is in such a bad place. Theoretical dps? Please. These stats are generated from crunched numbers assuming perfect rotations in the best gear available - these just aren't practical scenarios. So this profession gets balanced around some mystical zen like level of performance that most players come nowhere near meeting. Sounds legit.

[Feanor.2358]

@ArmageddonAsh.6430 said:

@Feanor.2358 said:No thanks. The game is full of boring no-brainer builds. Please don't ruin the one fun build out there.

you mean the build that is useless in PvP, useless in WvW unless you're in a zerg and will still miss a LOT. It has TWO viable places - WvW Zerg fights and Raids. Anywhere else, its wasted.

I mean the build I enjoy playing.

[Bladestrom.6425]

@ghettogenius.9174 said:See this is why ele is in such a bad place. Theoretical dps? Please. These stats are generated from crunched numbers assuming perfect rotations in the best gear available - these just aren't practical scenarios. So this profession gets balanced around some mystical zen like level of performance that most players come nowhere near meeting. Sounds legit.

exactly so, 'rotations' is raid play, and if you balance around that then you are going to have significant problems everywhere else in the game. Reactive/open world pvp is the best starting point for balancing since this is where the balance of classes can have a direct affect on the enjoyment of other people, i.e OP class A smashes class B. Person Y enjoys class B, but the experienced is ruined.

[Feanor.2358]

@vesica tempestas.1563 said:

@ghettogenius.9174 said:See this is why ele is in such a bad place. Theoretical dps? Please. These stats are generated from crunched numbers assuming perfect rotations in the best gear available - these just aren't practical scenarios. So this profession gets balanced around some mystical zen like level of performance that most players come nowhere near meeting. Sounds legit.

exactly so, 'rotations' is raid play, and if you balance around that then you are going to have significant problems everywhere else in the game. Reactive/open world pvp is the best starting point for balancing since this is where the balance of classes can have a

direct

affect on the enjoyment of other people, i.e OP class A smashes class B. Person Y enjoys class B, but the experienced is ruined.

You still don't get that some people do not play PvP and as such the balance there is irrelevant for them. ANet needs to balance for all game modes. And they do.

[Refia Montes.3205]

Could we stay on topic? I know staff PvP Weaver is trash, whether or not it's buffed or nerfed it doesn't really matter, since Staff is tad too slow for PvP.

And... no one presented a sound argument why Staff shouldn't be nerfed in a PvE scenario...

[MyPuppy.8970]

It's a staff, if Golems are dumb enough to sit on aoes it's on them. Otherwise you can cut that theoretical dps by half.

[Feanor.2358]

@"Refia Montes.3205" said:Could we stay on topic? I know staff PvP Weaver is trash, whether or not it's buffed or nerfed it doesn't really matter, since Staff is tad too slow for PvP.

And... no one presented a sound argument why Staff shouldn't be nerfed in a PvE scenario...

Because its high potential is balanced by the speed you're losing that same potential whenever something goes wrong. There's no other build that can lose as much dps from interrupts, forced movement or fight mechanics. Nerfing it would mean retaining all these drawbacks without an advantage to compensate for them.

Furthermore, both Mirage and Firebrand are only marginally weaker on a small hitbox while being more flexible in terms of group utility. Namely, being able to bring some of it. Firebrand has a low-CD Aegis share and can take a minor dps loss for a low-cd stab share. Mirage is much more reliable, especially on moving targets, and can swap Jaunt for Moa on groups lacking CC. As a staff Weaver your group support and CC are virtually non-existent.

Staff Weaver is a one-trick pony and that trick is being pure glass cannon. But the concept is only good if the "cannon" part of it is deserved. Nerfing it substantially will make it trash.

[Refia Montes.3205]

@Feanor.2358 said:

@Refia Montes.3205 said:SC just released the new for the most recent balance patch, with it showing that it has the best theoretical dps on both small and large.While I do think Weaver needs some dps to compensate for the reason that it has no to little cc, low health and armor as well as having a bit more complicated rotation, it needs to be down by a bit. 45k dps on Large/36k dps on small with a really large burst upfront, as well as having one of the biggest AoE skills seem absurd to me. (most especially all classes currently sit at around 30-35k~ dps on both small and large.)

Benchmarks only measure potential. Weaver has the largest one, which is fine considering its potential is the least reliable one. Interrupts, retal (low health pool + high numbers of hits per second), boss movement, forced movement... Benchmarks measure none of these.

While true, top raiders are able to deal near the potential Staff Weavers can. While a small number, focusing balance around the average pug, would hurt class/build diversity.

It's small health poll is of-set by the fact that a good healer and Chrono can help you survive, which in cases and from my experience, is true. I've been playing with Sw/D Weaver a lot, which is a pure melee dps spec that's as risky as Staff Weaver (or even more) and I can deal good dps, while surviving provided I have a good Healer and Chrono to support me.

[Bladestrom.6425]

@Feanor.2358 said:

@vesica tempestas.1563 said:

@ghettogenius.9174 said:See this is why ele is in such a bad place. Theoretical dps? Please. These stats are generated from crunched numbers assuming perfect rotations in the best gear available - these just aren't practical scenarios. So this profession gets balanced around some mystical zen like level of performance that most players come nowhere near meeting. Sounds legit.

exactly so, 'rotations' is raid play, and if you balance around that then you are going to have significant problems everywhere else in the game. Reactive/open world pvp is the best starting point for balancing since this is where the balance of classes can have a

direct

affect on the enjoyment of other people, i.e OP class A smashes class B. Person Y enjoys class B, but the experienced is ruined.

You still don't get that some people

do not

play PvP and as such the balance there is irrelevant

for them

. ANet needs to balance for all game modes. And they do.

the only balance issue is raiding, that's less than 5% of the game where there is an simplistic gamestyle where you rotate between spells to maximize dps..

open world pve is fine, fractals is fine, dungeons is fine, wvw & spvp needs more dps and sustain.

as for balancing for all modes - hardly, look at the mess eles have been in for several years in spvp and wvw.

[Arheundel.6451]

@Feanor.2358 said:

@"Refia Montes.3205" said:SC just released the new for the most recent balance patch, with it showing that it has the best theoretical dps on both small and large.While I do think Weaver needs some dps to compensate for the reason that it has no to little cc, low health and armor as well as having a bit more complicated rotation, it needs to be down by a bit. 45k dps on Large/36k dps on small with a really large burst upfront, as well as having one of the biggest AoE skills seem absurd to me. (most especially all classes currently sit at around 30-35k~ dps on both small and large.)

Benchmarks only measure potential. Weaver has the largest one, which is fine considering its potential is the least reliable one. Interrupts, retal (low health pool + high numbers of hits per second), boss movement, forced movement... Benchmarks measure none of these.

Anet has proved time and time again...that they don't care about the implications ...they only care to satisfy the cries of angry "whales" in PvE

[Emberheart.8426]

@Refia Montes.3205 said:

@Feanor.2358 said:

@Refia Montes.3205 said:SC just released the new for the most recent balance patch, with it showing that it has the best theoretical dps on both small and large.While I do think Weaver needs some dps to compensate for the reason that it has no to little cc, low health and armor as well as having a bit more complicated rotation, it needs to be down by a bit. 45k dps on Large/36k dps on small with a really large burst upfront, as well as having one of the biggest AoE skills seem absurd to me. (most especially all classes currently sit at around 30-35k~ dps on both small and large.)

Benchmarks only measure potential. Weaver has the largest one, which is fine considering its potential is the least reliable one. Interrupts, retal (low health pool + high numbers of hits per second), boss movement, forced movement... Benchmarks measure none of these.

While true, top raiders are able to deal near the potential Staff Weavers can. While a small number, focusing balance around the average pug, would hurt class/build diversity.

It's small health poll is of-set by the fact that a good healer and Chrono can help you survive, which in cases and from my experience, is true. I've been playing with Sw/D Weaver a lot, which is a pure melee dps spec that's as risky as Staff Weaver (or even more) and I can deal good dps, while surviving provided I have a good Healer and Chrono to support me.

Focusing balance on average raiders actually greatly increases build diversity for most raiders. The only people who would be less diverse are the speedrunners who are a subsection of an already very small population that raids. These people will use the most optimal comp all the time, and you can bet that if ele damage is nerfed significantly that even they will drop eles altogether because they will suddenly be a risky choice with no benefit and basically no utility.

Why should raids dictate balancing anyway? Why not dictate balance based on fractals? Why not dictate it based on PvP? Or maybe open world? Or perhaps WvW? These are all game modes that are played by more people. And unlike raiding, the state of balance actually can affect the current population of WvW and PvP quite significantly because nobody likes losing to cheese and having a class that can't do anything against other players. All classes can have a place in raids because you aren't facing another player that has an advantage over you just because of their class. It's not the non-raider's fault that so many raiders really want to try and run the speed clearing comps, when they would probably have smoother runs with other comps more suited to their skill level.