In-game gambling and time-consuming farming forced me to stop playing this game

[pah.4931]

@Faaris.8013 said:

@pah.4931 said:

@Faaris.8013 said:

@OneYenShort.3189 said:Welcome to the world of MMOs and games in general. And no I'm not joking at all. How do you think they keep players playing?

Well, I spent a lot of time in my youth playing board games. There were no loot boxes, no random rewards you have to buy with casino chips. Thesegames, simple compared to an MMO, kept us engaged for many hours. There are ways to keep players playing outside the world of gambling.

This is very short-sighted. Those games are a single purchase board game with so much less development time involved it's INSANE (I have invented and licensed board games that are on the market... you can trust me, we don't need 100s of developers to design a game lol).

The gambling has absolutely nothing to do with keeping you having fun and engaged. They are to make money so that the game isn't shutdown. Investors need a reason why they are putting their money behind GW2 instead of some lame-kitten mobile game that will make twice as much money with a fourth of the cost...

I'm sorry if people can't control themselves... but if you like GW2 you should be thanking ArenaNet for trying to make more profits and you should be thanking all those people buying the lootboxes and gem store items galore... they are letting you play this game for longer.

So we agree. I said that they don't need to add gambling to keep players playing, that there are other things that engage players. You added that they do this to make money. Of course they do it for the money, and not to keep players playing. We would still play the game if they removed Black Lion Chests.

Correct. But there would be no game without them making money. So... they still /need/ to add it to the game. I guess we agree? I don't know.

[pah.4931]

@Laila Lightness.8742 said:

@"Davin.5784" said:First of all, OP, good on you for recognizing your addiction and doing something about it. That takes a great deal of strength and courage. Second, you're not alone! Third, everyone here giving their "professional" opinion and insulting the OP, you should be ashamed of yourself. Gambling can be a serious problem. If it were as easy to NOT do as some of you claim, there wouldn't be helplines, charities or entire psych books written on it.

I've spent close to £250 on keys and over 1k in game since PoF came out on RNG boxes (Mad King, Wintersday, BLC). They don't call it "Fashion Wars" for nothing :(

I blame anet the op is the victim here and people talk of him not taking responsibility addiction is a sickness he cant help its anets fault for using his sickness too make money its not his fault

Aren't people addicted to video games? So should we shut down all video game developers? I mean... you hear all the time about people who lose jobs, destroy relationships, and even kill themselves over games.

You must see it's a slippery slope to blame the manufacturer for addictions...

[IndigoSundown.5419]

Points of clarification

• The OP has stated that he recognizes his role in the process that led to the behavior he seeks to correct. More power to him.
• The OP's incorrect use of the word "forced" has brought out a lot of the contradictory behavior that is so prevalent on the internet. While technically correct, these response are missing the forest by focusing on one of the trees.
• The correct term is "enabled." ANet is the enabler of such behavior, at least within GW2.
• Whether that means ANet is also at fault is a value judgment that need not be delved into.
• What's so is that in all cases of addictive gambling behavior involving RNG purchases in GW2, ANet shares responsibility with the person choosing to gamble. The behavior would not happen if either ANet did not offer the opportunity, nor if the player mastered the impulse.

[Biff.5312]

All video games are designed to be addicting. People who tend toward addictive behaviour to their detriment simply shouldn't play them.

That's a separate issue from the gambling. I agree with you that there should be no gambling in a game that children have access to, and that it encourages the weak of will to spend more than they can afford. It's one thing to get you hooked on playing, because that is your time in exchange for entertainment, but it's another to get you hooked on spending money in hopes of uncertain outcomes.

[Biff.5312]

@"Yamazuki.6073" said:If people want to oversimplify "gambling" down to three very basic things; luck, random, risk, then it means you're always gambling. Each day that you live there are risks involved, and how your days go is purely random and based on chance/luck. The word gambling may as well have no meaning in today's world.

Of course it has meaning. Gambling isn't just accepting the possibility of bad luck. Gambling specifically involves paying money in exchange for a potential-only. When there is a possibility or likelihood of receiving no value in exchange for money, that's a gamble. It's also a kind of fraud, being perpetrated on the gambler.

You can't remove money from your definition of gambling and pretend it's the same thing as crossing a street hoping not to be hit by a bus. That's just a denial of what the word means.

[FrizzFreston.5290]

I would never spend real money on gambles. I rather farm them through gameplay.

I actually like the black lion chest and keys in that regards.

Personally, there's really nothing in them thats worth it. No matter how exclusive. I have so many skins already. There's no to little incentive to spend gems let alone real money on these exclusives.

I would like the black lion stuff to stay but I dont care for the real money aspect of it.

[Conncept.7638]

@"Wizler.8192" said:

8. the game is not to blame--addiction comes in many forms; how do I personally handle temptation?

THAT is some incredibly deceptive victim blaming.

First, he's not talking about just any old video game, he's talking about a video game that over time has had more and more gambling injected into its gameplay and cash shop looooooong after being advertised as one in which end-game content and monetization were easily obtainable and based around neither grind or gambling.

And second, gambling does NOT IN ANY WAY fit into the category of self-created addiction, the very intent of its design, the entire reason there is an industry built around it, is that it is as naturally addictive, and its addiction as easily widespread, as any narcotic.

[Obtena.7952]

@Biff.5312 said:

@"Yamazuki.6073" said:If people want to oversimplify "gambling" down to three very basic things; luck, random, risk, then it means you're always gambling. Each day that you live there are risks involved, and how your days go is purely random and based on chance/luck. The word

gambling

may as well have no meaning in today's world.

Of course it has meaning. Gambling isn't just accepting the possibility of bad luck. Gambling specifically involves paying money in exchange for a potential-only. When there is a possibility or likelihood of receiving no value in exchange for money, that's a gamble. It's also a kind of fraud, being perpetrated on the gambler.

You can't remove money from your definition of gambling and pretend it's the same thing as crossing a street hoping not to be hit by a bus. That's just a denial of what the word means.

To be fair to Anet though ... based on this definition, open BL chests is not gambling. You always get SOMETHING. That the dig I have with the OP, referring to the question of ethics here. Sure, if you opened a chest and got nothing, I would be in agreement that's unreasonable, unethical, especially in an online game. This is why I believe the OP is not being completely honest in how he presents his concern about gambling.

[Biff.5312]

To be fair to Anet though ... based on this definition, open BL chests is not gambling. You always get SOMETHING. That the dig I have with the OP, referring to the question of ethics here. Sure, if you opened a chest and got nothing, I would be in agreement that's unreasonable, unethical, especially in an online game. This is why I believe the OP is not being completely honest in how he presents his concern about gambling.

You always get something, but you don't always get something of VALUE. In any contract, if one side offers nothing of value, it's considered invalid. You can argue about the relative values of the possible outcomes, but as an example if someone who has maxed luck wins luck, that is an item with no value. He can't use it, trade it, or recover his costs. It may as well be nothing.

[Prototypemind.4026]

Just some articles that deal with it more in-depth

Australian Government study citing the addictive nature of this system:https://aifs.gov.au/agrc/publications/is-it-gambling-or-game

UK governing body rules that it's not gambling only because it cannot return actual money, but that it is predatory:https://www.polygon.com/2017/11/24/16696974/uk-gambling-commission-loot-crate

This mentions legislators in the UK, EU, the States, and elsewhere looking to put new legislation in place because of the nature of the system, especially in the way it can take advantage of children who know no better and those who are more likely to have impulse control issues. As per the norm, companies push absolutely as far as they can, forcing regulation to reign them in rather than treating their customers like their is any concern for their long-term well being. Considering that the c-suite is usually here short-term and gets bonuses based on quick returns it's easy to see why pushing RNG-based micro transactions is the popular way to go even if it's completely uncaring about the effects many players will face from it.

Another article detailing pretty well all the tactics used to keep players buying without thought:https://www.kotaku.com.au/2017/10/loot-boxes-are-designed-to-exploit-us/

This sums it up well: "Whether it's offering the chance to get Symmetra's new skin or get a better rifle in Battlefront II, the only reason the loot box exists is to prey on the economically vulnerable. You are not a valued player; you are a statistic on a spreadsheet. You are red or black ink. Loot boxes certainly aren't there for fun. They have always been designed for the purpose of making sure that a company turns a profit."

I can promise you that every single one of these companies has read the research behind exactly what elements of these systems are designed to keep players spending regardless of if they can afford it or not. I posted a government-backed study above. There are tons and tons of vetted articles and papers out there about this, so the only ones being fooled into thinking this isn't preying on very specific psychological tendencies are the players who defend the companies doing it or think that they're somehow entirely immune. Those who disagree can think what they like, but there's a reason these companies are acting in this way, and it's because the research backs up that it's hard to switch off once they have you switched on.

And just an addendum about what these companies are bringing down on themselves as a result:http://www.pcgamer.com/apple-now-requires-app-store-games-to-disclose-loot-box-odds/

And a more recent posting on exactly why it would be in all of our best interest for companies to do the right thing rather than having government step in:http://www.pcgamer.com/loot-boxes-are-bad-but-new-legislation-could-be-worse/

Let's hope that ANet and the rest take the hint before it's beyond them to make choices about it, because in-game policies are a whole lot easier to change than laws.

[Laila Lightness.8742]

game is 12+ but gambling is 18+ in most contries isnt that wierd

[Obtena.7952]

@Biff.5312 said:

To be fair to Anet though ... based on this definition, open BL chests is not gambling. You always get SOMETHING. That the dig I have with the OP, referring to the question of ethics here. Sure, if you opened a chest and got nothing, I would be in agreement that's unreasonable, unethical, especially in an online game. This is why I believe the OP is not being completely honest in how he presents his concern about gambling.

You always get something, but you don't always get something of VALUE. In any contract, if one side offers nothing of value, it's considered invalid. You can argue about the relative values of the possible outcomes, but as an example if someone who has maxed luck wins luck, that is an item with no value. He can't use it, trade it, or recover his costs. It may as well be nothing.

That's not being honest. That's just a subjective view of what is valuable.

[Krumnoltzwitsky.8971]

@Obtena.7952 said:

@"Biff.5312" said:

To be fair to Anet though ... based on this definition, open BL chests is not gambling. You always get SOMETHING. That the dig I have with the OP, referring to the question of ethics here. Sure, if you opened a chest and got nothing, I would be in agreement that's unreasonable, unethical, especially in an online game. This is why I believe the OP is not being completely honest in how he presents his concern about gambling.

You always get something, but you don't always get something of VALUE. In any contract, if one side offers nothing of value, it's considered invalid. You can argue about the relative values of the possible outcomes, but as an example if someone who has maxed luck wins luck, that is an item with no value. He can't use it, trade it, or recover his costs. It may as well be nothing.

That's not being honest. That's just a subjective view of what is valuable.

Poker machines are designed to only give a return of 90% of the money put into the machine over time. That includes all the very small "wins" of like 10 cents, or maybe 25 cents etc, that people who play them get. They're designed that way so that the operators of the poker machines make a profit from them in spite of any payouts they have to make to people who very seldomly get the big jackpots. They're also designed that way to make people think they're winning something when in fact they just lost the majority of their bet. But because they feel like they're winning it makes them feel like they could win even more and they keep putting more money into them to try to win the big jackpot.

With regards to the BL chests, a lot of the time you only get "small wins" when you open them. Yes, that may still be something, but it's worth less than what you "put into the machine", so to speak. And it's still gambling. And when you talk about the comment you replied to above having a subjective view of what is valuable, if you added the cost of the items you received from opening BL chests together (gem costs), then converted that to gold so as to make everything denominated the same way for ease of comparing them, and then compared it with the cost of the actual BL chest keys converted from gems to gold, you are actually losing gold/gems on nearly every BL chest opening. So the BL chests essentially work like poker machines. They give small "rewards" or "wins" to make people feel like they're getting something good from them so that they keep opening more but they end up losing that person a lot of gold/real money instead. In my case it was $200 I lost.

[IndigoSundown.5419]

@Obtena.7952 said:

To be fair to Anet though ... based on this definition, open BL chests is not gambling. You always get SOMETHING. That the dig I have with the OP, referring to the question of ethics here. Sure, if you opened a chest and got nothing, I would be in agreement that's unreasonable, unethical, especially in an online game. This is why I believe the OP is not being completely honest in how he presents his concern about gambling.

This is equivocation. Are RNG containers gambling in the legal sense? No.

That's not what the OP was talking about, though. He spoke of opening BL Chests in the hope of getting something highly valuable to sell on the TP to fuel his addiction to getting virtual stuff that required gold. If that's one's goal, the chests are definitely gambling. You can say that value is subjective all you want, but that has zero effect on the psychology of people who have problems with gambling behavior. The way the psychology works, people can get addicted to the dopamine high caused by gambling in the subjective sense, just as they can by engaging in gambling in the legal sense.

[Obtena.7952]

@Krumnoltzwitsky.8971 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:

@"Biff.5312" said:

To be fair to Anet though ... based on this definition, open BL chests is not gambling. You always get SOMETHING. That the dig I have with the OP, referring to the question of ethics here. Sure, if you opened a chest and got nothing, I would be in agreement that's unreasonable, unethical, especially in an online game. This is why I believe the OP is not being completely honest in how he presents his concern about gambling.

You always get something, but you don't always get something of VALUE. In any contract, if one side offers nothing of value, it's considered invalid. You can argue about the relative values of the possible outcomes, but as an example if someone who has maxed luck wins luck, that is an item with no value. He can't use it, trade it, or recover his costs. It may as well be nothing.

That's not being honest. That's just a subjective view of what is valuable.

Poker machines are designed to only give a return of 90% of the money put into the machine over time. That includes all the very small "wins" of like 10 cents, or maybe 25 cents etc, that people who play them get. They're designed that way so that the operators of the poker machines make a profit from them in spite of any payouts they have to make to people who very seldomly get the big jackpots. They're also designed that way to make people think they're winning something when in fact they just lost the majority of their bet. But because they feel like they're winning it makes them feel like they could win even more and they keep putting more money into them to try to win the big jackpot.

With regards to the BL chests, a lot of the time you only get "small wins" when you open them. Yes, that may still be something, but it's worth less than what you "put into the machine", so to speak. And it's still gambling. And when you talk about the comment you replied to above having a subjective view of what is valuable, if you added the cost of the items you received from opening BL chests together (gem costs), then converted that to gold so as to make everything denominated the same way for ease of comparing them, and then compared it with the cost of the actual BL chest keys converted from gems to gold, you are actually losing gold/gems on nearly every BL chest opening. So the BL chests essentially work like poker machines. They give small "rewards" or "wins" to make people feel like they're getting something good from them so that they keep opening more but they end up losing that person a lot of gold/real money instead. In my case it was $200 I lost.

Irrelevant if it's value to YOU. You always get something, even if you don't care for it. BL chests are as much gambling as any other game you play that costs you something that returns an unknown amount ... like opening bags. If you have a problem with gambling, you shouldn't be playing MMO's ...every part of an mmo contains a 'gambling' element.