Stupid poll. Please ignore.

ArmageddonAsh.6430 · January 20, 2018

@Sarrs.4831 said:These arguments seem to apply to all sorts of minions.Gyros would also be quite a bit stronger if you couldn't destroy them- but you can. It's a key balance point.And honestly it seems like it would somewhat diminish the class fantasy.You have either powerful, yet destructible, on-field effects in targetable spirits, or you have relatively weak indestructible effects. I would rather summon very strong spirits than weak indestructible ones.
If being an effective healer is a big concern why not use Ventari stance? If you want an untargetable object with powerful effects that's basically the ticket for you.

Yeah the problem, IS that the current way they are VERY weak, killable, cant move. They are just simply put dreadful :/

Sarrs.4831 · January 20, 2018

@ArmageddonAsh.6430 said:Yeah the problem, IS that the current way they are VERY weak, killable, cant move. They are just simply put dreadful :/

I'm just looking at it on the wiki and to me it looks like their energy cost is 5 energy too high for their limitations.

ArmageddonAsh.6430 · January 20, 2018

@Sarrs.4831 said:
@ArmageddonAsh.6430 said:Yeah the problem, IS that the current way they are VERY weak, killable, cant move. They are just simply put dreadful :/

I'm just looking at it on the wiki and to me it looks like their energy cost is 5 energy too high for their limitations.

5!? It should GIVE you energy for using the utilities. The Heal and Elite arent too bad. The utilities? They are dreadful. I could think of SO many that are better. I think they just need a redesign. I personally wouldnt say no to them being an upkeep but without this stupid killable aspect.

I would change Razerclaw to something better, the other issue with this is, its ALWAYS going to be better in groups, solo this is going to just be trash. Remove the group aspect. Remove the whole making attacks do something. Change it a sort of field that pulses and deals conditions, more than just a little bleeding. Make it so it can apply any of the damaging conditions, give it the Etherfield aspect as well so attacks into it by allies cause conditions. Then make it so that with it being a Upkeep. When you cancel it it does like an AoE explosion, dealing damaging and inflicting conditions.

Something like this should be done to Icerazer and Darkrazer as well. Just buffed and made into upkeep skills, but without the cheese boon spamming that Herald had. Soulcleave is already in a good spot to be a upkeep, just make the dismiss part do something, something like Dealing AoE damaging to enemies, heal allies and make it so that it heals the Rev for each ally and enemy hit or something? Breakrazer could be quite easy something like making it so that allies and the Rev take 25% less condi damage for a few seconds or something?

Sarrs.4831 · January 20, 2018

The only utility I'd actually actively use is Darkrazor. A lot of interrupts pulsing in a quite well-sized area can be quite helpful when you're +1ing or joining a teamfight. It's expensive if you only manage to land one interrupt, but if you land two or three it's okay. There might be a silly Dismantle Fortifications interaction there too when planting it in a Stability-rich group, but I'd have to test.

Razorclaw is supposed to be used to support Darkrazor (and yourself) but this forces you into weird positioning that you can easily get punished for. Never mind that the amount of Bleeding it applies is a joke- one Bloodbane Path does more bleeding than Razorclaw can cause you to do across his entire duration. DPE wise, Razorclaw isn't competitive with Bloodbane Path even if Razorclaw causes 5x10 attacks. And that's just one skill you can easily weave into your attacks.

Icerazor is supposed to be used when you're using Razorclaw and that's just nonsensical. You use Darkrazor so that you can use Razorclaw so that you can use Icerazor! 80 energy investment before you're even looking at Icerazor. There was actually decent synergy before, with Icerazor activating the Chill->Torment trait... Which isn't even that scary compared to the premier area control class, Scourge.

And all your opponent has to do is step out of their area, and they do nothing.

ArmageddonAsh.6430 · January 20, 2018

@Sarrs.4831 said:The only utility I'd actually actively use is Darkrazor. A lot of interrupts pulsing in a quite well-sized area can be quite helpful when you're +1ing or joining a teamfight. It's expensive if you only manage to land one interrupt, but if you land two or three it's okay. There might be a silly Dismantle Fortifications interaction there too when planting it in a Stability-rich group, but I'd have to test.

I think that it could do with a little something extra, like if it interrupts something that it does damage or something. I do think the energy cost is about 5-10 too much as well. I'd say increase the cool down from 12 seconds to 15seconds and then decrease the energy from 30 to 20, maybe 25 if it deals good good damage and then good damage if it interrupts someone.

@Sarrs.4831 said:Razorclaw is supposed to be used to support Darkrazor (and yourself) but this forces you into weird positioning that you can easily get punished for. Never mind that the amount of Bleeding it applies is a joke- one Bloodbane Path does more bleeding than Razorclaw can cause you to do across his entire duration. DPE wise, Razorclaw isn't competitive with Bloodbane Path even if Razorclaw causes 5x10 attacks. And that's just one skill you can easily weave into your attacks.

Yeah it just sucks. Just flat out sucks. Low, low condition duration, even in groups- how is it ever going to be useful? This one i just think needs to be redesigned. From the ground up. Something new. Something good.

@Sarrs.4831 said:Icerazor is supposed to be used when you're using Razorclaw and that's just nonsensical. You use Darkrazor so that you can use Razorclaw so that you can use Icerazor! 80 energy investment before you're even looking at Icerazor. There was actually decent synergy before, with Icerazor activating the Chill->Torment trait... Which isn't even that scary compared to the premier area control class, Scourge.

Yeah its just flat out stupid design. They ALL need to be made so that they are good on their own. I dunno what Anet has this obsession with mindless spam. Marks, Traps, Wells. Its always the same. Use them all at the same time. Yawn.

@Sarrs.4831 said:And all your opponent has to do is step out of their area, and they do nothing.

Yep. This is the BIGGEST issues these skills have, yeah they have long duration. The problem is it means nothing, they can be easily destroyed,. you have VERY limited ways to keep them inside it for the effects. Others have ways to keep you inside, like DH Guardians with the elite, Rangers and thieves with all their immobilize, Chrono Mesmer with their Elite and CC. Revenants just dont have anything to keep people in there. They need to have strong effects when they are first placed down.

Jack Skywalker.5674 · January 21, 2018

@ArmageddonAsh.6430 said:
@Sarrs.4831 said:The only utility I'd actually actively use is Darkrazor. A lot of interrupts pulsing in a quite well-sized area can be quite helpful when you're +1ing or joining a teamfight. It's expensive if you only manage to land one interrupt, but if you land two or three it's okay. There might be a silly Dismantle Fortifications interaction there too when planting it in a Stability-rich group, but I'd have to test.

I think that it could do with a little something extra, like if it interrupts something that it does damage or something. I do think the energy cost is about 5-10 too much as well. I'd say increase the cool down from 12 seconds to 15seconds and then decrease the energy from 30 to 20, maybe 25 if it deals good good damage and then good damage if it interrupts someone.

What I would like to add here is that Darkrazor can meme out in WvW and open world Pve by targeting critters,flag poles etc and it would be nice if for WvW at least we could have a different variant of this skill that does not meme out or if we can fix the targeting.

@Sarrs.4831 said:Razorclaw is supposed to be used to support Darkrazor (and yourself) but this forces you into weird positioning that you can easily get punished for. Never mind that the amount of Bleeding it applies is a joke- one Bloodbane Path does more bleeding than Razorclaw can cause you to do across his entire duration. DPE wise, Razorclaw isn't competitive with Bloodbane Path
even if Razorclaw causes 5x10 attacks
. And that's just one skill you can easily weave into your attacks.

Yeah it just sucks. Just flat out sucks. Low, low condition duration, even in groups- how is it ever going to be useful? This one i just think needs to be redesigned. From the ground up. Something new. Something good.

Razorclaw is good only for ranged classes that can benefit from bleeds. The other way to benefit from this skill without puting yourself in harm way is to use hammer.

Icerazor is just situational - you use it to prevent people from runing away. It would be nice if it applied 4 stacks of chilled instead of criple and vulnerability and have SB4 changed to just apply burning and maybe vulnerability to compensate.

Daniel Handler.4816 · January 21, 2018

@Jack Skywalker.5674 said:
@Daniel Handler.4816 said:
@Jack Skywalker.5674 said:
@Daniel Handler.4816 said:
@Jack Skywalker.5674 said:
@"ArmageddonAsh.6430" said:(Revenant's) defenses are sustained resistance, evasion, projectile destruction or damage reduction at the expense of dps. This in contrast with the bursty defenses of the meta professions.
A warrior can pop resistance when needed without affecting its dps. Mallyx can perma resistance but wastes energy and remains vulnerable to corruption.

True.A revenant in sPvP would have to run Ventari to get the amount of condi cleanse needed to stay viable and that would still/further reduce the amount of dps Revenant can pump out. It will also increase the amount of stuff the Revenant player has to multitask.

Also the way Revenant gets his Resistance is the worst possible execution imaginable - resistance on legendary demon stance utility instead of on weapon skill.To add insult to injury, Malyx's thematic is outdated - hold on to condis and then copy them on others. The execution of this concept is so bad because it needed a GM that is ridiculously weak in comparison with Diabolic Inferno and should have been baseline.

You accidentally messed up the quoting there.

Copying was nerfed but the rest of the condition manipulation playstyle remains intact. And putting resistance on weapon skills was never possible. Resistance and Mallyx are like stone heart and earth attunement. You are supposed to be weak to x burst so any partial immunity must be paired with slow ramping conditions to give the enemy more time to burst you down, and to make the opportunity costs of camping accumulate. Ele uses conjures, and Rev can spam/upkeep abilities, but they do so at the expense of utility slots and energy.

There has to be a side effect and what disadvantage is there to putting resistance on weapons?

Firstly resistance would be applied only when in Demon Stance, meaning as long as you can do damage with a weapon skill you can get Resistance.

You are addressing swapping but not energy. Powerful effects are split across Legends AND between the skills within them.

So?While în Demon stance you get to spam Resistance with weapon skills - more value for the Energy spent.

You aren't supposed to get more value. Look at D/P thief with full initiative

You can spam heartseeker for damage. But you are 0 away, not in stealth, and have 0 initiative leftover.
You can spam heartseeker to leap 1800 away. But you have 0 damage, no stealth and have 0 initiative leftover.
You can spam heartseeker within BP to perma stealth. But you have 0 damage, must stay within BP while stacking, and have 0 initiative leftover.
You can combo heartseeker with BP once with a target for damage and some stealth with initiative leftover. But you are 0 away and its harder to stack stealth. However, you can easily backstab.
You can combo heartseeker with BP once without a target for some stealth and leap 450 away with initiative leftover. But you have 0 damage and it's harder to stack stealth. However, you can easily spam heartseeker to leap an additional 900 away while in stealth.

You don't get more value for energy spent without less value somewhere else. You have to choose attack or defense, and lose the one you didn't select.

Secondly, you can't copy condis WI th Malyx unless you sacrifice Diabolic Inferno for Pulsating Pestilence - the only mechanic in game for Revenant to copy conditions.

So?Wasn't the main reason for Malyx to pull condis was so he can copy them ....similar to how Necro's do it with their coruption stuff? Or did arena net never claim this stuff?

Demon stance focuses on conditions, with a twist. Let's call it condition manipulation. Instead of dealing with conditions in the traditional sense—mostly by removing them—your approach to conditions as a revenant is all about accumulating them in order to empower your attacks. The more conditions you have, the stronger and more impactful your demon legend skills will become.... -

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Revenant:_The_Master_of_the_Mists

It wasn't about copying, it was about being stronger with more condis. They removed that effect from 2 legend skills and nerfed Pulsating Pestilence but left the rest. Healing, damage modifiers, and the resistance mechanic scale with the number of condis.

Thirdly, if there is indeead a limitation of the game engine that makes it imposible to do this,then that sucks and the devs should consider making Demonic Defiance baseline and Oportune Extraction not as well as giving us easy to use mechanics for coruption transferal instead of just condi copying.

Copying has not been Mallyx's theme for years. Just like UA doesn't teleport you anymore.

They increased the damage of the spec, they aren't going to add more utility.Wasn't that utility the justification for why we manage condis the way we do în Demon stance ?If we had resistance on weapon skills then yeah we could argue that we are meant to deal damage and ignore condis ..... right now we have to split energy between weapon skills and demon stance skills.....and for moștenire of us its not working.

Ultimately the other way around. They want the class to be weak to condi burst because it's too strong to power. So demon stance is the justification for why you get resistance.

Demon isn't like the other stances. It needs condi damage, expertise, and concentration, and those stats don't exist together on anything. And I mean anything. There are no armor/runes/sigils/trinkets/foods/buffs/infusions that have them together. (besides Traveler rune, but it has a weaker version of all of them). You have to mix and match gear and traits but you can never max everything.

This is a bigger issue in PvP because concentration amulets are either power, precision, ferocity, concentration or power, healing power, concentration. You cannot perma resistance without losing all the condi damage Demon provides. It's not the end of the world, now the skills just heal, stun break, remove boons, give you 600 mobility and boost your stats by 10%. Use the 3% power damage per condition trait, and you can play as Mallyx as defensive utility to augment power weapons. You will only have your base health to protect you from conditions should resistance be ripped or corrupted.

The reverse happens when you use Mallyx for its condi damage. Now Mallyx becomes offensive, and any attempt to use it for defense will lower condi dps. This includes Demonic Defiance which is now at the expense of Venom Enhancement. If you attempt to stack resistance you will lose all dps. If you leave mace or shortbow you will lose most dps. Now you play the power weapons (and the shield) as defensive utility to augment Mallyx. Staff/hammer/sword mainhand come with cleanse/evasion/block/projectile denial while mace/shortbow/axe have cc but no defenses. You can run Deadshot to give you more vitality as a buffer against conditions without losing dps.

It's an ingenious design. No matter what you do, energy and stats will restrict Mallyx's potential. Multitasking just makes them both weaker. You can't ignore this with traits. You can't run herald for boon duration and renegade for condi damage. In invocation, Furious Aggression and Spirit Boon require swapping or healing AND take the slots for cleansing and healing.

The other legends don't have resistance. And cleanse and condi damage reduction are easier to balance because they aren't boons. For cleanse you give it extreme tradeoffs like energy expulsion or you lock it behind cooldowns until its super slow. And you don't need to balance condi damage reduction, it is the balance, you get sustain to condis but not to burst condis because you aren't cleansing.

Jack Skywalker.5674 · January 21, 2018

@Daniel Handler.4816 said:
@Jack Skywalker.5674 said:
@Daniel Handler.4816 said:
@Jack Skywalker.5674 said:
@Daniel Handler.4816 said:
@Jack Skywalker.5674 said:
@"ArmageddonAsh.6430" said:(Revenant's) defenses are sustained resistance, evasion, projectile destruction or damage reduction at the expense of dps. This in contrast with the bursty defenses of the meta professions.
A warrior can pop resistance when needed without affecting its dps. Mallyx can perma resistance but wastes energy and remains vulnerable to corruption.

True.A revenant in sPvP would have to run Ventari to get the amount of condi cleanse needed to stay viable and that would still/further reduce the amount of dps Revenant can pump out. It will also increase the amount of stuff the Revenant player has to multitask.

Also the way Revenant gets his Resistance is the worst possible execution imaginable - resistance on legendary demon stance utility instead of on weapon skill.To add insult to injury, Malyx's thematic is outdated - hold on to condis and then copy them on others. The execution of this concept is so bad because it needed a GM that is ridiculously weak in comparison with Diabolic Inferno and should have been baseline.

You accidentally messed up the quoting there.

Copying was nerfed but the rest of the condition manipulation playstyle remains intact. And putting resistance on weapon skills was never possible. Resistance and Mallyx are like stone heart and earth attunement. You are supposed to be weak to x burst so any partial immunity must be paired with slow ramping conditions to give the enemy more time to burst you down, and to make the opportunity costs of camping accumulate. Ele uses conjures, and Rev can spam/upkeep abilities, but they do so at the expense of utility slots and energy.

There has to be a side effect and what disadvantage is there to putting resistance on weapons?

Firstly resistance would be applied only when in Demon Stance, meaning as long as you can do damage with a weapon skill you can get Resistance.

You are addressing swapping but not energy. Powerful effects are split across Legends AND between the skills within them.

So?While în Demon stance you get to spam Resistance with weapon skills - more value for the Energy spent.

You aren't supposed to get more value. Look at D/P thief with full initiative

No need,because in my example,I was just proposing that weapon skills be more valuable when cast exclusively in Demon Stance as in it doesn't matter why you spamed them,you took this trait over the others,you get Resistance when you spam them. Bam case closed.

Also I just had a quick read through the link you provided. How exactly does Malyx get empowered by puting condies on himself?Are they changing Embrace the Darkness this upcoming patch to convert condies into boons at a set interval instead of pulsating Torment?If so that would be super but 1 expac too late for this legend to finaly work as proposed by the devs...but still, thank you devs.If not,then I need to be enlightened,because outside of leveling with mace and axe on a power build featuring Jallis/Shiro + some sPvP stuff with Herald (which I hated because I don't like using Glint) I appear to not know much about Malyx because without Demonic Defiance and Pulsating Pestilence,there are no tools on this legend to help with the "condition manipulation".

ArmageddonAsh.6430 · January 21, 2018

@Jack Skywalker.5674 said:No need,because in my example,I was just proposing that weapon skills be more valuable when cast exclusively in Demon Stance

Maybe a trait in Each legend that gives some sort of effect when using Weapon skills would be a good idea?

Idea could be:

Mal: Gain Resistance 2seconds. When you use weapon skills. 5second cool down.Ventari: Heal per an energy point spent when using weapon abilities.Shiro: Gian Might 1 stack, 10seconds when you use weapon skills with an Energy costJalis: ????Glint: ????Kalla: ????

Jack Skywalker.5674 · January 21, 2018

@ArmageddonAsh.6430 said:
@Jack Skywalker.5674 said:No need,because in my example,I was just proposing that weapon skills be more valuable when cast exclusively in Demon Stance

Maybe a trait in Each legend that gives some sort of effect when using Weapon skills would be a good idea?

Idea could be:

Mal: Gain Resistance 2seconds. When you use weapon skills. 5second cool down.Ventari: Heal per an energy point spent when using weapon abilities.Shiro: Gian Might 1 stack, 10seconds when you use weapon skills with an Energy costJalis: ????Glint: ????Kalla: ????

Assuming Daniel Handler.4816's information regarding the fact that the game engine can't process the notion of weapon skills creating boons on cast then what we need are mechanics to convert condies into boons for the Demon Stance.

As for the other legends...Ventari really wouldn't need something like this because of staff aa chain but it would be nice if we could get a trait that can change the functionality of those healing orbs which I still find hard to see on snowy terrain.

ArmageddonAsh.6430 · January 21, 2018

@Jack Skywalker.5674 said:Assuming Daniel Handler.4816's information regarding the fact that the game engine can't process the notion of weapon skills creating boons on cast then what we need are mechanics to convert condies into boons for the Demon Stance.
As for the other legends...Ventari really wouldn't need something like this because of staff aa chain but it would be nice if we could get a trait that can change the functionality of those healing orbs which I still find hard to see on snowy terrain.

Well, that would go against the orignal design choice that Anet had for Mal, which they then gutted, didnt replace and thought it would be a good idea to have a legend with a traitline that just doesnt make sense.

As for ventari and staff, this would be a good idea because it would mean you wouldnt be forced into Staff, plus the staff auto attack is DREADFUL for healing and the healing skill it does have is long cast time with minor healing. I think a change like this would actually benefit everyone as you could get really good sustain and healing if combined with Devastation traitline. I think it would just be flat out better if rather than healing allies, the orbs are just removed and you are healing when you use each part of the auto attack, then make the trait grant you the regen and swiftness when you land the 3rd hit on the auto attack.

Daniel Handler.4816 · January 21, 2018

@Jack Skywalker.5674 said:
@Daniel Handler.4816 said:
@Jack Skywalker.5674 said:
@Daniel Handler.4816 said:
@Jack Skywalker.5674 said:
@Daniel Handler.4816 said:
@Jack Skywalker.5674 said:
@"ArmageddonAsh.6430" said:(Revenant's) defenses are sustained resistance, evasion, projectile destruction or damage reduction at the expense of dps. This in contrast with the bursty defenses of the meta professions.
A warrior can pop resistance when needed without affecting its dps. Mallyx can perma resistance but wastes energy and remains vulnerable to corruption.