Stupid poll. Please ignore.

[Master Ketsu.4569]

@otto.5684 said:

@Master Ketsu.4569 said:

@"MithranArkanere.8957" said:Like GW1's spirits, they have rather powerful effects. Being killable is the tradeoff.

If they were made invulnerable or just visual effects, the skills would have to be toned down to compensate.

But if they ever tone them down for other balance reasons, then they should also make them invulnerable to compensate.

An intermediate solution could be giving them a damage cap. Like not being able to lose more than 33% HP per second. So while they would still be killable to shorten their effects, they would always at least last 3 seconds.

renegade spirits have kitten effects though.

In PvE it's viable, but in PvP renegade is a massive joke. Even bronze players aren't going to stand in kalla while you hit them, resulting in it being a nearly useless skill unless you are playing against people who are completely braindead.

They could make the spirits unkillable and it would still be worse than using shiro/jalis or shiro/malyx for the simple reason that spirits are like comically nerfed versions of scourge shades that require more energy and do less damage. Many of us have tested renegade builds in pvp and confirmed this to be the truth. If you want to run renegade in pvp you are better off running power renegade with jalis hammer and never bothering with legendary renegade stance at all, it just wasn't designed for pvp period.

I think saying that Renegade is not designed for PvP gives it too much credit. I would say that renegade as a whole was slammed randomly together at the last minute. There was no "design." Compare it with FB, Weaver, mirage or any other elite really, and you can see the level of attention these elite received is light years ahead of renegade.

Just FB as an example. Fairly detailed back ground that ties into Elona. Tomes that synergies with support role in sPvP. Interesting condi design between tomes and weapons, that allows flexibility between condi or hybrid. It has meta build (over performing actually) in sPvP and a condi build that works well in PvE without 10 years ramp-up. It works good in every PvE mode, from open world PvE to raids.

Renegade? The entire elite is nothing more than condi damage modifier in PvE to the existing condi build pre-PoF. Set of none synergistic utilities and F-skills, that are only valuable in raid scenarios. In my opinion, it is without a doubt the worst of all 18 elites (Dead eye gives it some completion though).

The design actually isn't completely awful and is a nod to the old Ritualist. I believe the designer was trying to get this point accross. GW2 is designed to not have a designated healer, so Guardian and Rev are what we got instead of Monk/Ritualist. Problem is Revenant didn't have anything that resembled ritualist so they made a spirit spamming elite spec.

Problem is the balance clowns refused to make it work. The spirits don't have near the range of old Ritualist spirits. The abilities are either weak or require enemies to be very stupid- which again is workable in PvE but 100% useless in PvP.

Shiro/Jalis Power renegade is actually very close to being viable in sPvP. Devestation/Invoc/Renegade is already used in WvW in certain comps. The only problem is it lacks a few additional defensive options due to Renegade defensive traits being blatantly worse versions of what other classes got. Like compare Elusive mind to Righteous rebel and the massive power gap between the two is a joke among jokes. The actual CONCEPT of righteous rebel isn't bad, it's just not good enough. Buff it from 33% at max stacks to 10% per stack ( max 50% ) and now we are getting somewhere. I've already tried a Sword/Sword + Staff version of this build taking advantage of how Renegade mechanics can guarantee the extra energy from Charged mists. It's not great since a good player can kill you, but not awful either since it definitely does damage and can actually solo FBs.

[otto.5684]

@Daniel Handler.4816 said:

@Vulf.3098 said:Herald still supplies a decent amount of boons while also dealing superior dps

@otto.5684 said:Dps in PvE you mean? Herald is superior heal in every game mode and herald support in PvP is significantly superior.

Renegade is nothing more than a raid only elite. Even in open world PvE it is disappointing.

Ignore Ventari and ignore healing power (hp):

• healing from Breakrazor + Soulcleave with 0 hp > healing from Envoy of Exuberance + perma regeneration with any hp stat
• renegade can supply decent amounts of might, protection, and regeneration
• renegade can provide 35%-56% uptime on Alacrity. herald provides 0

The only thing Herald has is swiftness/fury. And better control in mobile situations.

None of that stuff is useable in most conditions. Herald surely has better personal healing. Break razor healing while strong pales in comparison to herald heal. Herald Can provide 100% uptime on protection without sacrificing any dps (to renegade you must sacrifice dps) and renegede cannot even provide reg.

Again, the only real functional use of renegade is raid as condi dps, to which you provide no support. Everything else is either pretty niche (Ventari/alacrity) or is done million times better with herald.

[Daniel Handler.4816]

@Master Ketsu.4569 said:The only problem is it lacks a few additional defensive options due to Renegade defensive traits being blatantly worse versions of what other classes got.

It's not the traits. It's the abilities. Rev and Ele are versatile freecasters. PvP is for the people who have on-demand defensive utilities/F/dodge skills. It's a tanky glass cannon meta for specialists who can dependably perform one role.

[Daniel Handler.4816]

@otto.5684 said:

@Daniel Handler.4816 said:

@Vulf.3098 said:Herald still supplies a decent amount of boons while also dealing superior dps

@otto.5684 said:Dps in PvE you mean? Herald is superior heal in every game mode and herald support in PvP is significantly superior.

Renegade is nothing more than a raid only elite. Even in open world PvE it is disappointing.

Ignore Ventari and ignore healing power (hp):

• healing from Breakrazor + Soulcleave with 0 hp > healing from Envoy of Exuberance + perma regeneration with any hp stat
• renegade can supply decent amounts of might, protection, and regeneration
• renegade can provide 35%-56% uptime on Alacrity. herald provides 0

The only thing Herald has is swiftness/fury. And better control in mobile situations.

None of that stuff is useable in most conditions. Herald surely has better personal healing. Break razor healing while strong pales in comparison to herald heal. Herald Can provide 100% uptime on protection without sacrificing any dps (to renegade you must sacrifice dps) and renegede cannot even provide reg.

Again, the only real functional use of renegade is raid as condi dps, to which you provide no support. Everything else is either pretty niche (Ventari/alacrity) or is done million times better with herald.

It's not usable because of the destruction/disabling. Whether or not it's meta is not the point.

I also already said Herald had better tanking so I don't know why you are bringing up Infuse Light.

And perma protection/regen < breakrazor's bastion by itself. Renegades protection, reg dodge and lifestyle are just extra.

[Jack Skywalker.5674]

@Master Ketsu.4569 said:

@otto.5684 said:

@Master Ketsu.4569 said:

@"MithranArkanere.8957" said:Like GW1's spirits, they have rather powerful effects. Being killable is the tradeoff.

If they were made invulnerable or just visual effects, the skills would have to be toned down to compensate.

But if they ever tone them down for other balance reasons, then they should also make them invulnerable to compensate.

An intermediate solution could be giving them a damage cap. Like not being able to lose more than 33% HP per second. So while they would still be killable to shorten their effects, they would always at least last 3 seconds.

renegade spirits have kitten effects though.

In PvE it's viable, but in PvP renegade is a massive joke. Even bronze players aren't going to stand in kalla while you hit them, resulting in it being a nearly useless skill unless you are playing against people who are completely braindead.

They could make the spirits unkillable and it would still be worse than using shiro/jalis or shiro/malyx for the simple reason that spirits are like comically nerfed versions of scourge shades that require more energy and do less damage. Many of us have tested renegade builds in pvp and confirmed this to be the truth. If you want to run renegade in pvp you are better off running power renegade with jalis hammer and never bothering with legendary renegade stance at all, it just wasn't designed for pvp period.

I think saying that Renegade is not designed for PvP gives it too much credit. I would say that renegade as a whole was slammed randomly together at the last minute. There was no "design." Compare it with FB, Weaver, mirage or any other elite really, and you can see the level of attention these elite received is light years ahead of renegade.

Just FB as an example. Fairly detailed back ground that ties into Elona. Tomes that synergies with support role in sPvP. Interesting condi design between tomes and weapons, that allows flexibility between condi or hybrid. It has meta build (over performing actually) in sPvP and a condi build that works well in PvE without 10 years ramp-up. It works good in every PvE mode, from open world PvE to raids.

Renegade? The entire elite is nothing more than condi damage modifier in PvE to the existing condi build pre-PoF. Set of none synergistic utilities and F-skills, that are only valuable in raid scenarios. In my opinion, it is without a doubt the worst of all 18 elites (Dead eye gives it some completion though).

The design actually isn't completely awful and is a nod to the old Ritualist. I believe the designer was trying to get this point accross. GW2 is designed to not have a designated healer, so Guardian and Rev are what we got instead of Monk/Ritualist. Problem is Revenant didn't have anything that resembled ritualist so they made a spirit spamming elite spec.

Problem is the balance clowns refused to make it work. The spirits don't have near the range of old Ritualist spirits. The abilities are either weak or require enemies to be very stupid- which again is workable in PvE but 100% useless in PvP.

Shiro/Jalis Power renegade is actually very close to being viable in sPvP. Devestation/Invoc/Renegade is already used in WvW in certain comps. The only problem is it lacks a few additional defensive options due to Renegade defensive traits being blatantly worse versions of what other classes got. Like compare Elusive mind to Righteous rebel and the massive power gap between the two is a joke among jokes. The actual CONCEPT of righteous rebel isn't bad, it's just not good enough. Buff it from 33% at max stacks to 10% per stack ( max 50% ) and now we are getting somewhere. I've already tried a Sword/Sword + Staff version of this build taking advantage of how Renegade mechanics can guarantee the extra energy from Charged mists. It's not great since a good player can kill you, but not awful either since it definitely does damage and can actually solo FBs.

I think Kala would have been more viable in sPvP if the spirits did not need enemies to target. What if Darkrazor's effect was continuous stun breaking field and Icerazor's effect was a combo blaster that would cost us energy upkeep to maintain. The latter would still be useless in sPvP, but a continuous stun breaker on Darkrazor could really improve Revenan't supportive abilities.

Also another thing that could help Renegade traitline is to have the Piercing on SB be baseline for the weapon and a new trait which applies Torment whenever you hit someone with Bleed.

[Daniel Handler.4816]

@Jack Skywalker.5674 said:

@Master Ketsu.4569 said:

@otto.5684 said:

@Master Ketsu.4569 said:

@"MithranArkanere.8957" said:Like GW1's spirits, they have rather powerful effects. Being killable is the tradeoff.

If they were made invulnerable or just visual effects, the skills would have to be toned down to compensate.

But if they ever tone them down for other balance reasons, then they should also make them invulnerable to compensate.

An intermediate solution could be giving them a damage cap. Like not being able to lose more than 33% HP per second. So while they would still be killable to shorten their effects, they would always at least last 3 seconds.

renegade spirits have kitten effects though.

In PvE it's viable, but in PvP renegade is a massive joke. Even bronze players aren't going to stand in kalla while you hit them, resulting in it being a nearly useless skill unless you are playing against people who are completely braindead.

They could make the spirits unkillable and it would still be worse than using shiro/jalis or shiro/malyx for the simple reason that spirits are like comically nerfed versions of scourge shades that require more energy and do less damage. Many of us have tested renegade builds in pvp and confirmed this to be the truth. If you want to run renegade in pvp you are better off running power renegade with jalis hammer and never bothering with legendary renegade stance at all, it just wasn't designed for pvp period.

I think saying that Renegade is not designed for PvP gives it too much credit. I would say that renegade as a whole was slammed randomly together at the last minute. There was no "design." Compare it with FB, Weaver, mirage or any other elite really, and you can see the level of attention these elite received is light years ahead of renegade.

Just FB as an example. Fairly detailed back ground that ties into Elona. Tomes that synergies with support role in sPvP. Interesting condi design between tomes and weapons, that allows flexibility between condi or hybrid. It has meta build (over performing actually) in sPvP and a condi build that works well in PvE without 10 years ramp-up. It works good in every PvE mode, from open world PvE to raids.

Renegade? The entire elite is nothing more than condi damage modifier in PvE to the existing condi build pre-PoF. Set of none synergistic utilities and F-skills, that are only valuable in raid scenarios. In my opinion, it is without a doubt the worst of all 18 elites (Dead eye gives it some completion though).

The design actually isn't completely awful and is a nod to the old Ritualist. I believe the designer was trying to get this point accross. GW2 is designed to not have a designated healer, so Guardian and Rev are what we got instead of Monk/Ritualist. Problem is Revenant didn't have anything that resembled ritualist so they made a spirit spamming elite spec.

Problem is the balance clowns refused to make it work. The spirits don't have near the range of old Ritualist spirits. The abilities are either weak or require enemies to be very stupid- which again is workable in PvE but 100% useless in PvP.

Shiro/Jalis Power renegade is actually very close to being viable in sPvP. Devestation/Invoc/Renegade is already used in WvW in certain comps. The only problem is it lacks a few additional defensive options due to Renegade defensive traits being blatantly worse versions of what other classes got. Like compare Elusive mind to Righteous rebel and the massive power gap between the two is a joke among jokes. The actual CONCEPT of righteous rebel isn't bad, it's just not good enough. Buff it from 33% at max stacks to 10% per stack ( max 50% ) and now we are getting somewhere. I've already tried a Sword/Sword + Staff version of this build taking advantage of how Renegade mechanics can guarantee the extra energy from Charged mists. It's not great since a good player can kill you, but not awful either since it definitely does damage and can actually solo FBs.

I think Kala would have been more viable in sPvP if the spirits did not need enemies to target. What if Darkrazor's effect was continuous stun breaking field and Icerazor's effect was a combo blaster that would cost us energy upkeep to maintain. The latter would still be useless in sPvP, but a continuous stun breaker on Darkrazor could really improve Revenan't supportive abilities.

Also another thing that could help Renegade traitline is to have the Piercing on SB be baseline for the weapon and a new trait which applies Torment whenever you hit someone with Bleed.

Rev will never be meta in sPvP again. There are too many conditions flying around and Rev spends too much time responding rather than dpsing. When meta professions burst they have carefully selected defensive abilities/traits to fall back on. Revs can have vicious cycles when one slows dps/swaps for defense because less energy is used/available for offensive pressure and one ends up taking more damage than normal and must slow dps/swap for defense. While this problem is somewhat solved by the new Invocation grandmasters, this isn't the only issue affecting dps. Revs have high cd heals and low cd defensive abilities, the former are great and the latter aren't. Any ability that can be used often will be weak and only get comparatively better with use/upkeep. But multiple/extended usage means fewer resources spent attacking and we are back in the vicious cycle. Raids and WvW avoid this by having longer fights, and freecasting is easier.

Edit: https://metabattle.com/wiki/Conquest

• Everyone on that list is packing 100% damage negation (cleanse, teleports, blocks, invuln, resistance, evades)
• Rev instead relies almost entirely on healing/damage reduction.
• the only thing Rev has to compete with the meta is infuse light and riposting shadows.

Even if every minor/major adept/master/grandmaster trait in invocation became baseline Rev would still not be meta in sPvP because of this gap in defense.

[Jack Skywalker.5674]

@Daniel Handler.4816 said:

@Jack Skywalker.5674 said:

@Master Ketsu.4569 said:

@otto.5684 said:

@Master Ketsu.4569 said:

@"MithranArkanere.8957" said:Like GW1's spirits, they have rather powerful effects. Being killable is the tradeoff.

If they were made invulnerable or just visual effects, the skills would have to be toned down to compensate.

But if they ever tone them down for other balance reasons, then they should also make them invulnerable to compensate.

An intermediate solution could be giving them a damage cap. Like not being able to lose more than 33% HP per second. So while they would still be killable to shorten their effects, they would always at least last 3 seconds.

renegade spirits have kitten effects though.

In PvE it's viable, but in PvP renegade is a massive joke. Even bronze players aren't going to stand in kalla while you hit them, resulting in it being a nearly useless skill unless you are playing against people who are completely braindead.

They could make the spirits unkillable and it would still be worse than using shiro/jalis or shiro/malyx for the simple reason that spirits are like comically nerfed versions of scourge shades that require more energy and do less damage. Many of us have tested renegade builds in pvp and confirmed this to be the truth. If you want to run renegade in pvp you are better off running power renegade with jalis hammer and never bothering with legendary renegade stance at all, it just wasn't designed for pvp period.

I think saying that Renegade is not designed for PvP gives it too much credit. I would say that renegade as a whole was slammed randomly together at the last minute. There was no "design." Compare it with FB, Weaver, mirage or any other elite really, and you can see the level of attention these elite received is light years ahead of renegade.

Just FB as an example. Fairly detailed back ground that ties into Elona. Tomes that synergies with support role in sPvP. Interesting condi design between tomes and weapons, that allows flexibility between condi or hybrid. It has meta build (over performing actually) in sPvP and a condi build that works well in PvE without 10 years ramp-up. It works good in every PvE mode, from open world PvE to raids.

Renegade? The entire elite is nothing more than condi damage modifier in PvE to the existing condi build pre-PoF. Set of none synergistic utilities and F-skills, that are only valuable in raid scenarios. In my opinion, it is without a doubt the worst of all 18 elites (Dead eye gives it some completion though).

The design actually isn't completely awful and is a nod to the old Ritualist. I believe the designer was trying to get this point accross. GW2 is designed to not have a designated healer, so Guardian and Rev are what we got instead of Monk/Ritualist. Problem is Revenant didn't have anything that resembled ritualist so they made a spirit spamming elite spec.

Problem is the balance clowns refused to make it work. The spirits don't have near the range of old Ritualist spirits. The abilities are either weak or require enemies to be very stupid- which again is workable in PvE but 100% useless in PvP.

Shiro/Jalis Power renegade is actually very close to being viable in sPvP. Devestation/Invoc/Renegade is already used in WvW in certain comps. The only problem is it lacks a few additional defensive options due to Renegade defensive traits being blatantly worse versions of what other classes got. Like compare Elusive mind to Righteous rebel and the massive power gap between the two is a joke among jokes. The actual CONCEPT of righteous rebel isn't bad, it's just not good enough. Buff it from 33% at max stacks to 10% per stack ( max 50% ) and now we are getting somewhere. I've already tried a Sword/Sword + Staff version of this build taking advantage of how Renegade mechanics can guarantee the extra energy from Charged mists. It's not great since a good player can kill you, but not awful either since it definitely does damage and can actually solo FBs.

I think Kala would have been more viable in sPvP if the spirits did not need enemies to target. What if Darkrazor's effect was continuous stun breaking field and Icerazor's effect was a combo blaster that would cost us energy upkeep to maintain. The latter would still be useless in sPvP, but a continuous stun breaker on Darkrazor could really improve Revenan't supportive abilities.

Also another thing that could help Renegade traitline is to have the Piercing on SB be baseline for the weapon and a new trait which applies Torment whenever you hit someone with Bleed.

Rev will never be meta in sPvP again. There are too many conditions flying around and Rev spends too much time responding rather than dpsing. When meta professions burst they have carefully selected defensive abilities/traits to fall back on. Revs can have vicious cycles when one slows dps/swaps for defense because less energy is used/available for offensive pressure and one ends up taking more damage than normal and must slow dps/swap for defense. While this problem is somewhat solved by the new Invocation grandmasters, this isn't the only issue affecting dps. Revs have high cd heals and low cd defensive abilities, the former are great and the latter aren't. Any ability that can be used often will be weak and only get comparatively better with use/upkeep. But multiple/extended usage means fewer resources spent attacking and we are back in the vicious cycle. Raids and WvW avoid this by having longer fights, and freecasting is easier.

Rev's have 2 heals,that more than justifies the high cd's if we assume Shiro (I count Enchanted Daggers as 1/2 heal and we all know how good Shiro is,right?) and Ventari (which is design to heal other people in group play) are out of this equation.The problem is,the core legends are unbalanced in certain ways

• Malyx's defensive ability comes with risks (condition pulling) that outweight the rewards (condition transferal) but the heal skill is on par with core equivalents in terms of cast time and health restored, however the problem here is that we have no means of getting rid of the conditions we pull. Even if Demonic Defiance gave us Resistance when using weapon skills in Demon stance I don't think Malyx's core mechanic of holding on to conditions so we can coppy them to nearby foes via a trait no one will ever pick over Diabolic Inferno is just bad. It would still be bad even if the jump on Malyx would coppy them on nearby foes, while Demonic Defiance gave us Resistance when using weapon skills.....actualy that combo could work
• Jallis has a very good healing skill and that is about it, everything else in this legend is highly questionable and hard to justify when you take a look at other classes

As far as the legends from the elites go, I can make the following coments

• Unfortunately for me (because I hate the mechanics behind this stance), Dragon Stance is the one true balanced stance within the Revenant's kit, which is why it is a must pick for WvW (where it make's Revenant viable in zerg's) and sPvP (where you are terrible without this stance because of how good it is on it's own)
• Kala is another legend with mechanics I dislike (targeted aoe heals, no free casting like with Shiro and Glint) but has the potential to be usefull provided some changes are made. For instance let's take Icerazor's Ire, why not make this guy pull condis from nearby allies while you maintain an upkeep,then fire them all Kamehameha wave style. Even if you miss the shot or not cast it because the guy dies, you still get to be (partialy) condi free. And the WvW guys would probably prefer Darkrazor to be a chanelled aoe stun breaker because of the memes regarding Darkrazor dazing critters, flagpoles and other trivial targets in WvW.

[Daniel Handler.4816]

@Jack Skywalker.5674 said:

@Daniel Handler.4816 said:

@Jack Skywalker.5674 said:

@Master Ketsu.4569 said:

@otto.5684 said:

@Master Ketsu.4569 said:

@"MithranArkanere.8957" said:Like GW1's spirits, they have rather powerful effects. Being killable is the tradeoff.

If they were made invulnerable or just visual effects, the skills would have to be toned down to compensate.

But if they ever tone them down for other balance reasons, then they should also make them invulnerable to compensate.

An intermediate solution could be giving them a damage cap. Like not being able to lose more than 33% HP per second. So while they would still be killable to shorten their effects, they would always at least last 3 seconds.

renegade spirits have kitten effects though.

In PvE it's viable, but in PvP renegade is a massive joke. Even bronze players aren't going to stand in kalla while you hit them, resulting in it being a nearly useless skill unless you are playing against people who are completely braindead.

They could make the spirits unkillable and it would still be worse than using shiro/jalis or shiro/malyx for the simple reason that spirits are like comically nerfed versions of scourge shades that require more energy and do less damage. Many of us have tested renegade builds in pvp and confirmed this to be the truth. If you want to run renegade in pvp you are better off running power renegade with jalis hammer and never bothering with legendary renegade stance at all, it just wasn't designed for pvp period.

I think saying that Renegade is not designed for PvP gives it too much credit. I would say that renegade as a whole was slammed randomly together at the last minute. There was no "design." Compare it with FB, Weaver, mirage or any other elite really, and you can see the level of attention these elite received is light years ahead of renegade.

Just FB as an example. Fairly detailed back ground that ties into Elona. Tomes that synergies with support role in sPvP. Interesting condi design between tomes and weapons, that allows flexibility between condi or hybrid. It has meta build (over performing actually) in sPvP and a condi build that works well in PvE without 10 years ramp-up. It works good in every PvE mode, from open world PvE to raids.

Renegade? The entire elite is nothing more than condi damage modifier in PvE to the existing condi build pre-PoF. Set of none synergistic utilities and F-skills, that are only valuable in raid scenarios. In my opinion, it is without a doubt the worst of all 18 elites (Dead eye gives it some completion though).

The design actually isn't completely awful and is a nod to the old Ritualist. I believe the designer was trying to get this point accross. GW2 is designed to not have a designated healer, so Guardian and Rev are what we got instead of Monk/Ritualist. Problem is Revenant didn't have anything that resembled ritualist so they made a spirit spamming elite spec.

Problem is the balance clowns refused to make it work. The spirits don't have near the range of old Ritualist spirits. The abilities are either weak or require enemies to be very stupid- which again is workable in PvE but 100% useless in PvP.

Shiro/Jalis Power renegade is actually very close to being viable in sPvP. Devestation/Invoc/Renegade is already used in WvW in certain comps. The only problem is it lacks a few additional defensive options due to Renegade defensive traits being blatantly worse versions of what other classes got. Like compare Elusive mind to Righteous rebel and the massive power gap between the two is a joke among jokes. The actual CONCEPT of righteous rebel isn't bad, it's just not good enough. Buff it from 33% at max stacks to 10% per stack ( max 50% ) and now we are getting somewhere. I've already tried a Sword/Sword + Staff version of this build taking advantage of how Renegade mechanics can guarantee the extra energy from Charged mists. It's not great since a good player can kill you, but not awful either since it definitely does damage and can actually solo FBs.

I think Kala would have been more viable in sPvP if the spirits did not need enemies to target. What if Darkrazor's effect was continuous stun breaking field and Icerazor's effect was a combo blaster that would cost us energy upkeep to maintain. The latter would still be useless in sPvP, but a continuous stun breaker on Darkrazor could really improve Revenan't supportive abilities.

Also another thing that could help Renegade traitline is to have the Piercing on SB be baseline for the weapon and a new trait which applies Torment whenever you hit someone with Bleed.

Rev will never be meta in sPvP again. There are too many conditions flying around and Rev spends too much time responding rather than dpsing. When meta professions burst they have carefully selected defensive abilities/traits to fall back on. Revs can have vicious cycles when one slows dps/swaps for defense because less energy is used/available for offensive pressure and one ends up taking more damage than normal and must slow dps/swap for defense. While this problem is somewhat solved by the new Invocation grandmasters, this isn't the only issue affecting dps. Revs have high cd heals and low cd defensive abilities, the former are great and the latter aren't. Any ability that can be used often will be weak and only get comparatively better with use/upkeep. But multiple/extended usage means fewer resources spent attacking and we are back in the vicious cycle. Raids and WvW avoid this by having longer fights, and freecasting is easier.

Rev's have 2 heals,that more than justifies the high cd's if we assume Shiro (I count Enchanted Daggers as 1/2 heal and we all know how good Shiro is,right?) and Ventari (which is design to heal other people in group play) are out of this equation.

I said the heals are great. It's the defensive skills that are a problem.

The problem is,the core legends are unbalanced in certain ways.

That is a problem but not the problem with PvP. That issue is because quick battles do not favor classes that constantly swap roles, regardless of how balanced those roles are.

Their defenses are sustained resistance, evasion, projectile destruction or damage reduction at the expense of dps. This in contrast with the bursty defenses of the meta professions.

A warrior can pop resistance when needed without affecting its dps. Mallyx can perma resistance but wastes energy and remains vulnerable to corruption.

[Shirlias.8104]

I am up to counterplays, but it's true that many other persistent skills do not have any.

• Shades
• wells
• symbols
• random persisten aoe skill
• etc...

Then i guess making them untargettable would be the best deal ( obviously they should then reduce the duration of some skills like the heal, which lasts 10 seconds ).

[ArmageddonAsh.6430]

@Shirlias.8104 said:I am up to counterplays, but it's true that many other persistent skills do not have any.

• Shades
• wells
• symbols
• random persisten aoe skill
• etc...

Then i guess making them untargettable would be the best deal ( obviously they should then reduce the duration of some skills like the heal, which lasts 10 seconds ).

Well. Too be fair. ALL of these have counters: Move out of the AoE. Boom. Done. Of course not so easy in S/TPvP due to its design.

[Shirlias.8104]

In a pvp scenariowith capture points it is not a possibility.

Also it's not 1 aoe with 3 sec duration every 60 sec. It's perma aoe with no cd.

[Daniel Handler.4816]

@Shirlias.8104 said:I am up to counterplays, but it's true that many other persistent skills do not have any.

• Shades
• wells
• symbols
• random persisten aoe skill
• etc...

Then i guess making them untargettable would be the best deal ( obviously they should then reduce the duration of some skills like the heal, which lasts 10 seconds ).

Rev and Ele need strong persistent effects to offset their inability to multitask. Other professions get more burst and less sustain to offset having more access.

Ex Healing Spring is a 10 second persistent aoe just like Breakrazor

• It is more bursty because it's a water field, traps can be preset to cast twice in a row, and it has more trait/rune procs.
• It has less sustain because it pulses regeneration and cleanse instead of heals and 50% condi damage reduction.
• If you run out of combo finishers, and already have perma regeneration, healing spring seems much weaker. But you still have access to Signet of Stone, Signet of Renewal, and more.
• rev legends do not have defensive skills of that caliber, and what comes close is split between legends

[ArmageddonAsh.6430]

Rather than make them targetable. I wish they would turn them into Traps/Wells/Marks and even then they would be better off just redesigning them as the actual effects for quite a few of them are just plain rubbish. Even if the summons couldnt be targeted, they would still be pretty dreadful and STILL wouldnt be used.

[Jack Skywalker.5674]

@ArmageddonAsh.6430 said:Rather than make them targetable. I wish they would turn them into Traps/Wells/Marks and even then they would be better off just redesigning them as the actual effects for quite a few of them are just plain rubbish. Even if the summons couldnt be targeted, they would still be pretty dreadful and STILL wouldnt be used.

Kala's summons are not supposed to be like wells, they are supposed to be akin to ranger spirits/engi turrets. I doubt Arena net will ever back down on this decision choice....all we can do is hope that they will revert the bad design choices from Scourge shade and F4....maybe if F4 and F5 Scourge had fused effects and cd's on top of having the sand shades be destructable, but this is a topic left disscused on Necro forums, where even Necro's complain about other Scourges.

@ArmageddonAsh.6430 said:(Revenant's) defenses are sustained resistance, evasion, projectile destruction or damage reduction at the expense of dps. This in contrast with the bursty defenses of the meta professions.

A warrior can pop resistance when needed without affecting its dps. Mallyx can perma resistance but wastes energy and remains vulnerable to corruption.

True.A revenant in sPvP would have to run Ventari to get the amount of condi cleanse needed to stay viable and that would still/further reduce the amount of dps Revenant can pump out. It will also increase the amount of stuff the Revenant player has to multitask.

Also the way Revenant gets his Resistance is the worst possible execution imaginable - resistance on legendary demon stance utility instead of on weapon skill.To add insult to injury, Malyx's thematic is outdated - hold on to condis and then copy them on others. The execution of this concept is so bad because it needed a GM that is ridiculously weak in comparison with Diabolic Inferno and should have been baseline.

[ArmageddonAsh.6430]

@Jack Skywalker.5674 said:Kala's summons are not supposed to be like wells, they are supposed to be akin to ranger spirits/engi turrets. I doubt Arena net will ever back down on this decision choice....all we can do is hope that they will revert the bad design choices from Scourge shade and F4....maybe if F4 and F5 Scourge had fused effects and cd's on top of having the sand shades be destructable, but this is a topic left disscused on Necro forums, where even Necro's complain about other Scourges.

Maybe they aren't and THAT is the problem. Traps, Wells, Marks they are ALL better than Kalla abilities. Of course they wont back down. Remember the good old Dhuumfire fiasco? Add another condition that Necro didnt need, what they needed was sustain, they get more damage. When as EVERYONE pointed out that it was going to be an overpowered mess! What did they do? Nerf the craop out of other aspects of the class rather than admit they were wrong and remove it.

It is without a doubt, even if they made the Kalla have no health and just persistent AoE they would STILL suck because of just how weak and pointless some of the effects are. The Heal and the Elite, they are the only 2 useful ones. The utilities, they could all be replaced and no one would care.

@Jack Skywalker.5674 said:True.A revenant in sPvP would have to run Ventari to get the amount of condi cleanse needed to stay viable and that would still/further reduce the amount of dps Revenant can pump out. It will also increase the amount of stuff the Revenant player has to multitask.

Also the way Revenant gets his Resistance is the worst possible execution imaginable - resistance on legendary demon stance utility instead of on weapon skill.To add insult to injury, Malyx's thematic is outdated - hold on to condis and then copy them on others. The execution of this concept is so bad because it needed a GM that is ridiculously weak in comparison with Diabolic Inferno and should have been baseline.

Even with Ventari, due to its WOEFUL design its just too difficult. Even with 100% Energy you could remove what 12 conditions. Total. Then have ZERO Energy to do anything else but auto attack. It is also reliant on the Tablet position rather than the player. As you say, with Ventari, you lose damage, with Ventari you lose mobility. You do gain a little bit of projectile destruction but at high cost of not really being able to do anything else.

Yes. I totally agree. It kinda says something that Resistance was added to counter the Mal design of pulling conditions. The problem is it is easily removed or corrupted by the classes that are the biggest threats and those that are big threats that dont have that like Condi Thief, Ranger and such all have stealth, mobility, range, CC and everything. Yeah the theme was gutted before released and not replaced with something else :/ The trait is a joke it SHOULD transfer the conditions at the very least.

[Jack Skywalker.5674]

@ArmageddonAsh.6430 said:

@Jack Skywalker.5674 said:Kala's summons are not supposed to be like wells, they are supposed to be akin to ranger spirits/engi turrets. I doubt Arena net will ever back down on this decision choice....all we can do is hope that they will revert the bad design choices from Scourge shade and F4....maybe if F4 and F5 Scourge had fused effects and cd's on top of having the sand shades be destructable, but this is a topic left disscused on Necro forums, where even Necro's complain about other Scourges.

Maybe they aren't and THAT is the problem. Traps, Wells, Marks they are ALL better than Kalla abilities. Of course they wont back down. Remember the good old Dhuumfire fiasco? Add another condition that Necro didnt need, what they needed was sustain, they get more damage. When as EVERYONE pointed out that it was going to be an overpowered mess! What did they do? Nerf the craop out of other aspects of the class rather than admit they were wrong and remove it.

It is without a doubt, even if they made the Kalla have no health and just persistent AoE they would STILL suck because of just how weak and pointless some of the effects are. The Heal and the Elite, they are the only 2 useful ones. The utilities, they could all be replaced and no one would care.

@Jack Skywalker.5674 said:True.A revenant in sPvP would have to run Ventari to get the amount of condi cleanse needed to stay viable and that would still/further reduce the amount of dps Revenant can pump out. It will also increase the amount of stuff the Revenant player has to multitask.

Also the way Revenant gets his Resistance is the worst possible execution imaginable - resistance on legendary demon stance utility instead of on weapon skill.To add insult to injury, Malyx's thematic is outdated - hold on to condis and then copy them on others. The execution of this concept is so bad because it needed a GM that is ridiculously weak in comparison with Diabolic Inferno and should have been baseline.

Even with Ventari, due to its WOEFUL design its just too difficult. Even with 100% Energy you could remove what 12 conditions. Total. Then have ZERO Energy to do anything else but auto attack. It is also reliant on the Tablet position rather than the player. As you say, with Ventari, you lose damage, with Ventari you lose mobility. You do gain a little bit of projectile destruction but at high cost of not really being able to do anything else.

Yes. I totally agree. It kinda says something that Resistance was added to counter the Mal design of pulling conditions. The problem is it is easily removed or corrupted by the classes that are the biggest threats and those that are big threats that dont have that like Condi Thief, Ranger and such all have stealth, mobility, range, CC and everything. Yeah the theme was gutted before released and not replaced with something else :/ The trait is a joke it SHOULD transfer the conditions at the very least.

Ventari for PvE is an aquired taste - you either like it, learn to like it or simply hate it.For Pvp Ventari is out of place right now with it's expensive skills.Also I believe Resistance was added to suplement the condi pulling aspect of Malyx (so you can pull more condis and wreak more condi havoc).This doesn't change the fact that Malyx's design is outdated.

[ArmageddonAsh.6430]

@Jack Skywalker.5674 said:Ventari for PvE is an aquired taste - you either like it, learn to like it or simply hate it.For Pvp Ventari is out of place right now with it's expensive skills.Also I believe Resistance was added to suplement the condi pulling aspect of Malyx (so you can pull more condis and wreak more condi havoc).This doesn't change the fact that Malyx's design is outdated.

Yerah when it comes to PvP and WvW, Ventari is just badly designed. High cost on everything, the micromanagement needed is too much for how little you actually get back. When others can do what Ventari does SO much better, so much easier and while being able to do so much more as well.

Yeah it was, i dont quite see why they gutted the legend and traits before the actual release anyway. They should have left the original design as it was and then tweaked it based on REAL in game performance. Rather than basing it on how it went when they played it.

As it is, Most of the legends are just weak. Very weak. Badly designed. Energy cost of them wouldnt be so bad if it was just them that you had to think about but because they thought it was a good idea to kinda admit that the Thieft mechanic was broken (yet not go back and fix it...) they had to add an energy cost AND skill cool down!? Why!?

[ArmageddonAsh.6430]

An idea i had. What if The GM trait actually CHANGED the type of skills the heal, utility and Elite are? Like you would get an option of Trap, Well or Mark. Picking each one would set the Heal, Utilities and Elite to that type and each one would have the skills be different in specific ways to make them balanced. Sort of like how the Daredevil GM traits change how the dodge works.

[Loboling.5293]

Or buff them. Some skilled barely justify the opportunity cost of being susceptible. Like darkrazor's daring would be a little too strong if it was immune, while razorclaw's rage should never be cast, except for very specific scenarios. Never in PvP. If it was immune you might cast it during a 5 push into lord... And still only in the same scenarios you do in PvE.

I'd actually prefer they buff the spirits and keep most of them susceptible to dmg and cc. I mean some serious buffs though. The general idea would be to give the spirits different uses for different purposes. So razorclaw's rage could explode on death stunning nearby enemies (360 yard radius) for 3 seconds. Icerazor's Ire drops an ice field(3s, 10 second icd) when cced, so the area is now chilled that he's been pushed off of.

These types of buffs would not drastically change their use in PvE raiding and fractals, but would give them more opportunity to cost ratio in pvp by significant amounts. The concept is similar to confusion damage, but instead of dealing damage on skill us spam, you'll trigger unique abilities on skill use spam. (aka spamming aoe dps and cc) with secondary effect interactions. These spirits have 15 and 12 second cooldowns, and the ability should reflect the cooldown length. If each spirit is best killed in a specific way (by avoiding triggering their specials*), there is counterplay. By leaving spirits vulnerable, and having secondary effects you can have much more interesting gameplay. And with the right scaling, you could salvage the design problems that are holding the Renegade back.

[Daniel Handler.4816]

@Jack Skywalker.5674 said:

@ArmageddonAsh.6430 said:(Revenant's) defenses are sustained resistance, evasion, projectile destruction or damage reduction at the expense of dps. This in contrast with the bursty defenses of the meta professions.

A warrior can pop resistance when needed without affecting its dps. Mallyx can perma resistance but wastes energy and remains vulnerable to corruption.

True.A revenant in sPvP would have to run Ventari to get the amount of condi cleanse needed to stay viable and that would still/further reduce the amount of dps Revenant can pump out. It will also increase the amount of stuff the Revenant player has to multitask.

Also the way Revenant gets his Resistance is the worst possible execution imaginable - resistance on legendary demon stance utility instead of on weapon skill.To add insult to injury, Malyx's thematic is outdated - hold on to condis and then copy them on others. The execution of this concept is so bad because it needed a GM that is ridiculously weak in comparison with Diabolic Inferno and should have been baseline.

You accidentally messed up the quoting there.

Copying was nerfed but the rest of the condition manipulation playstyle remains intact. And putting resistance on weapon skills was never possible. Resistance and Mallyx are like stone heart and earth attunement. You are supposed to be weak to x burst so any partial immunity must be paired with slow ramping conditions to give the enemy more time to burst you down, and to make the opportunity costs of camping accumulate. Ele uses conjures, and Rev can spam/upkeep abilities, but they do so at the expense of utility slots and energy.

There has to be a side effect and what disadvantage is there to putting resistance on weapons?

[Jack Skywalker.5674]

@Daniel Handler.4816 said:

@Jack Skywalker.5674 said:

@ArmageddonAsh.6430 said:(Revenant's) defenses are sustained resistance, evasion, projectile destruction or damage reduction at the expense of dps. This in contrast with the bursty defenses of the meta professions.

A warrior can pop resistance when needed without affecting its dps. Mallyx can perma resistance but wastes energy and remains vulnerable to corruption.

True.A revenant in sPvP would have to run Ventari to get the amount of condi cleanse needed to stay viable and that would still/further reduce the amount of dps Revenant can pump out. It will also increase the amount of stuff the Revenant player has to multitask.

Also the way Revenant gets his Resistance is the worst possible execution imaginable - resistance on legendary demon stance utility instead of on weapon skill.To add insult to injury, Malyx's thematic is outdated - hold on to condis and then copy them on others. The execution of this concept is so bad because it needed a GM that is ridiculously weak in comparison with Diabolic Inferno and should have been baseline.

You accidentally messed up the quoting there.

Copying was nerfed but the rest of the condition manipulation playstyle remains intact. And putting resistance on weapon skills was never possible. Resistance and Mallyx are like stone heart and earth attunement. You are supposed to be weak to x burst so any partial immunity must be paired with slow ramping conditions to give the enemy more time to burst you down, and to make the opportunity costs of camping accumulate. Ele uses conjures, and Rev can spam/upkeep abilities, but they do so at the expense of utility slots and energy.

There has to be a side effect and what disadvantage is there to putting resistance on weapons?

Firstly resistance would be applied only when in Demon Stance, meaning as long as you can do damage with a weapon skill you can get Resistance.

Secondly, you can't copy condis with Malyx unless you sacrifice Diabolic Inferno for Pulsating Pestilence - the only mechanic in game for Revenant to copy conditions.

Thirdly, if there is indeead a limitation of the game engine that makes it imposible to do this,then that sucks and the devs should consider making Demonic Defiance baseline and Oportune Extraction not as well as giving us easy to use mechanics for coruption transferal instead of just condi copying.

[Carighan.6758]

For all these important pets, if it can be coded, I would love if skills can hit them, but only if the summon was specifically targetted.

This would apply even to AE skills. You might be able to hit 5 targets in the area, but you can only hit a clone, a warband member or a spirit if that's your currently selected target. In turn, they should die in 1-2 hits, tops. So the moment you do target them, they get removed instantly.

[Daniel Handler.4816]

@Jack Skywalker.5674 said:

@Daniel Handler.4816 said:

@Jack Skywalker.5674 said:

@"ArmageddonAsh.6430" said:(Revenant's) defenses are sustained resistance, evasion, projectile destruction or damage reduction at the expense of dps. This in contrast with the bursty defenses of the meta professions.

A warrior can pop resistance when needed without affecting its dps. Mallyx can perma resistance but wastes energy and remains vulnerable to corruption.

True.A revenant in sPvP would have to run Ventari to get the amount of condi cleanse needed to stay viable and that would still/further reduce the amount of dps Revenant can pump out. It will also increase the amount of stuff the Revenant player has to multitask.

Also the way Revenant gets his Resistance is the worst possible execution imaginable - resistance on legendary demon stance utility instead of on weapon skill.To add insult to injury, Malyx's thematic is outdated - hold on to condis and then copy them on others. The execution of this concept is so bad because it needed a GM that is ridiculously weak in comparison with Diabolic Inferno and should have been baseline.

You accidentally messed up the quoting there.

Copying was nerfed but the rest of the condition manipulation playstyle remains intact. And putting resistance on weapon skills was never possible. Resistance and Mallyx are like stone heart and earth attunement. You are supposed to be weak to x burst so any partial immunity must be paired with slow ramping conditions to give the enemy more time to burst you down, and to make the opportunity costs of camping accumulate. Ele uses conjures, and Rev can spam/upkeep abilities, but they do so at the expense of utility slots and energy.

There has to be a side effect and what disadvantage is there to putting resistance on weapons?

Firstly resistance would be applied only when in Demon Stance, meaning as long as you can do damage with a weapon skill you can get Resistance.

You are addressing swapping but not energy. Powerful effects are split across Legends AND between the skills within them.

The best way to illustrate these limitations is to compare how the top specs for Rev and Thief manage resources for sustained condi dps.

https://youtu.be/3tLqnBx-62M

• Thief uses all its initiative, endurance, and utilities. Rev uses all its energy.
• The only way to increase defense is by lowering dps and vice versa.

This zero sum game is why only Mallyx's expensive and damageless stunbreaker stacks resistance. Even the trait that puts out condis when you gain resistance gives you condis as well.

Secondly, you can't copy condis WI th Malyx unless you sacrifice Diabolic Inferno for Pulsating Pestilence - the only mechanic in game for Revenant to copy conditions.

So?

Thirdly, if there is indeead a limitation of the game engine that makes it imposible to do this,then that sucks and the devs should consider making Demonic Defiance baseline and Oportune Extraction not as well as giving us easy to use mechanics for coruption transferal instead of just condi copying.

Copying has not been Mallyx's theme for years. Just like UA doesn't teleport you anymore.

They increased the damage of the spec, they aren't going to add more utility.

[Jack Skywalker.5674]

@Daniel Handler.4816 said:

@Jack Skywalker.5674 said:

@Daniel Handler.4816 said:

@Jack Skywalker.5674 said:

@ArmageddonAsh.6430 said:(Revenant's) defenses are sustained resistance, evasion, projectile destruction or damage reduction at the expense of dps. This in contrast with the bursty defenses of the meta professions.

A warrior can pop resistance when needed without affecting its dps. Mallyx can perma resistance but wastes energy and remains vulnerable to corruption.

True.A revenant in sPvP would have to run Ventari to get the amount of condi cleanse needed to stay viable and that would still/further reduce the amount of dps Revenant can pump out. It will also increase the amount of stuff the Revenant player has to multitask.

Also the way Revenant gets his Resistance is the worst possible execution imaginable - resistance on legendary demon stance utility instead of on weapon skill.To add insult to injury, Malyx's thematic is outdated - hold on to condis and then copy them on others. The execution of this concept is so bad because it needed a GM that is ridiculously weak in comparison with Diabolic Inferno and should have been baseline.

You accidentally messed up the quoting there.

Copying was nerfed but the rest of the condition manipulation playstyle remains intact. And putting resistance on weapon skills was never possible. Resistance and Mallyx are like stone heart and earth attunement. You are supposed to be weak to x burst so any partial immunity must be paired with slow ramping conditions to give the enemy more time to burst you down, and to make the opportunity costs of camping accumulate. Ele uses conjures, and Rev can spam/upkeep abilities, but they do so at the expense of utility slots and energy.

There has to be a side effect and what disadvantage is there to putting resistance on weapons?

Firstly resistance would be applied only when in Demon Stance, meaning as long as you can do damage with a weapon skill you can get Resistance.

You are addressing swapping but not energy. Powerful effects are split across Legends AND between the skills within them.

So?While în Demon stance you get to spam Resistance with weapon skills - more value for the Energy spent.

Secondly, you can't copy condis WI th Malyx unless you sacrifice Diabolic Inferno for Pulsating Pestilence - the only mechanic in game for Revenant to copy conditions.

So?Wasn't the main reason for Malyx to pull condis was so he can copy them ....similar to how Necro's do it with their coruption stuff? Or did arena net never claim this stuff?

Thirdly, if there is indeead a limitation of the game engine that makes it imposible to do this,then that sucks and the devs should consider making Demonic Defiance baseline and Oportune Extraction not as well as giving us easy to use mechanics for coruption transferal instead of just condi copying.

Copying has not been Mallyx's theme for years. Just like UA doesn't teleport you anymore.

They increased the damage of the spec, they aren't going to add more utility.Wasn't that utility the justification for why we manage condis the way we do în Demon stance ?If we had resistance on weapon skills then yeah we could argue that we are meant to deal damage and ignore condis ..... right now we have to split energy between weapon skills and demon stance skills.....and for moștenire of us its not working.

[Sarrs.4831]

These arguments seem to apply to all sorts of minions.Gyros would also be quite a bit stronger if you couldn't destroy them- but you can. It's a key balance point.And honestly it seems like it would somewhat diminish the class fantasy.You have either powerful, yet destructible, on-field effects in targetable spirits, or you have relatively weak indestructible effects. I would rather summon very strong spirits than weak indestructible ones.

If being an effective healer is a big concern why not use Ventari stance? If you want an untargetable object with powerful effects that's basically the ticket for you.