Stupid poll. Please ignore.

[Vulf.3098]

@"MithranArkanere.8957" said:Making shades targetable could be something to consider. If they are not too easy to kill. So maybe we should have some sort of "damage staggering" mechanic that prevents them from losing too much health too fast, and instead delays that damage. So they are never immune to damage and all of it is dealt, but they won't die in 1 second. Shades would get this mechanic innately, and if it works, it could be a new tool to consider for new and existing skills and traits and further balance.

So, for instance, if a necromancer puts a shade covering an entire small capture point, right now there's nothing you can do about it. If you go in, they may hit you hit a hard to predict unblockable disable, and spamtons of stuff on you. But make them targetable, you could now kill it before going in. But without damage staggering, they would die too fast, too often.

This same damage staggering mechanic could be used for other summons that die too fast too easily against heavy damage burst from large groups, so they can still be damaged and killed to reduce their duration, just not too fast and easily so they at least have some effect.

Making shades targetable would make scourge useless because of how much of their traits and abilites rely on having a shade out. What needs to be nerfed on scourge is not shades but rather the trait sand savant that makes the radius really stupid in pvp.

As someone who plays a ton of renegade and Rev in general the whole summon mechanic on this spec is poorly designed and honestly making them unkillable would do absolutely nothing to help it.

[MithranArkanere.8957]

@JayAction.9056 said:

@MithranArkanere.8957 said:Like GW1's spirits, they have rather powerful effects. Being killable is the tradeoff.

If they were made invulnerable or just visual effects, the skills would have to be toned down to compensate.

Are you afraid for rev to have an updated spec that is as good as the other POF specs or what?

They are the like the weakest aoe skills in game, that are able to be killed and have their duration reduced to nothing, and they cost an insane amount of energy.

No. Revenant is the only truly balanced profession. The rest are too strong. It's the rest that need to get brought to normalcy levels. Because any more power you give to revenant will be too much, it'll have to be toned down, and we'd back to the start.

@Vulf.3098 said:

@MithranArkanere.8957 said:Making shades targetable could be something to consider. If they are not too easy to kill. So maybe we should have some sort of "damage staggering" mechanic that prevents them from losing too much health too fast, and instead delays that damage. So they are never immune to damage and all of it is dealt, but they won't die in 1 second. Shades would get this mechanic innately, and if it works, it could be a new tool to consider for new and existing skills and traits and further balance.

So, for instance, if a necromancer puts a shade covering an entire small capture point, right now there's nothing you can do about it. If you go in, they may hit you hit a hard to predict unblockable disable, and spamtons of stuff on you. But make them targetable, you could now kill it before going in. But without damage staggering, they would die too fast, too often.

This same damage staggering mechanic could be used for other summons that die too fast too easily against heavy damage burst from large groups, so they can still be damaged and killed to reduce their duration, just not too fast and easily so they at least have some effect.

Making shades targetable would make scourge useless because of how much of their traits and abilites rely on having a shade out. What needs to be nerfed on scourge is not shades but rather the trait sand savant that makes the radius really stupid in pvp.

As someone who plays a ton of renegade and Rev in general the whole summon mechanic on this spec is poorly designed and honestly making them unkillable would do absolutely nothing to help it.

If you completely ignore my point they when doing so they must also be changed so they are not easily killabl like any other summon. Doing so without that would be pointless. Making them targetable has to be a way to give enemies a way to reduce their duration, not a way to make them pointless. So without a measure on the lines of the that "damage staggering" I mentioned, it can't be done. Or they'd just disappear in zerg situations like revenant spirits do.

[Vulf.3098]

@MithranArkanere.8957 said:

@JayAction.9056 said:

@MithranArkanere.8957 said:Like GW1's spirits, they have rather powerful effects. Being killable is the tradeoff.

If they were made invulnerable or just visual effects, the skills would have to be toned down to compensate.

Are you afraid for rev to have an updated spec that is as good as the other POF specs or what?

They are the like the weakest aoe skills in game, that are able to be killed and have their duration reduced to nothing, and they cost an insane amount of energy.

No. Revenant is the only truly balanced profession. The rest are too strong. It's the rest that need to get brought to normalcy levels. Because any more power you give to revenant will be too much, it'll have to be toned down, and we'd back to the start.

@Vulf.3098 said:

@MithranArkanere.8957 said:Making shades targetable could be something to consider. If they are not too easy to kill. So maybe we should have some sort of "damage staggering" mechanic that prevents them from losing too much health too fast, and instead delays that damage. So they are never immune to damage and all of it is dealt, but they won't die in 1 second. Shades would get this mechanic innately, and if it works, it could be a new tool to consider for new and existing skills and traits and further balance.

So, for instance, if a necromancer puts a shade covering an entire small capture point, right now there's nothing you can do about it. If you go in, they may hit you hit a hard to predict unblockable disable, and spamtons of stuff on you. But make them targetable, you could now kill it before going in. But without damage staggering, they would die too fast, too often.

This same damage staggering mechanic could be used for other summons that die too fast too easily against heavy damage burst from large groups, so they can still be damaged and killed to reduce their duration, just not too fast and easily so they at least have some effect.

Making shades targetable would make scourge useless because of how much of their traits and abilites rely on having a shade out. What needs to be nerfed on scourge is not shades but rather the trait sand savant that makes the radius really stupid in pvp.

As someone who plays a ton of renegade and Rev in general the whole summon mechanic on this spec is poorly designed and honestly making them unkillable would do absolutely nothing to help it.

If you completely ignore my point they when doing so they must also be changed so they are not easily killabl like any other summon. Doing so without that would be pointless. Making them targetable has to be a way to give enemies a way to reduce their duration, not a way to make them pointless. So without a measure on the lines of the that "damage staggering" I mentioned, it can't be done. Or they'd just disappear in zerg situations like revenant spirits do.

What did I just read? That is not how balance works. It just shows how horribly designed Rev really is.

Then do not ignore my point in which you can not really compare shades to summons.

[JayAction.9056]

@MithranArkanere.8957 said:

@JayAction.9056 said:

@MithranArkanere.8957 said:Like GW1's spirits, they have rather powerful effects. Being killable is the tradeoff.

If they were made invulnerable or just visual effects, the skills would have to be toned down to compensate.

Are you afraid for rev to have an updated spec that is as good as the other POF specs or what?

They are the like the weakest aoe skills in game, that are able to be killed and have their duration reduced to nothing, and they cost an insane amount of energy.

No. Revenant is the only truly balanced profession. The rest are too strong. It's the rest that need to get brought to normalcy levels. Because any more power you give to revenant will be too much, it'll have to be toned down, and we'd back to the start.

...So "balanced" is synonymous with "the worst" to you, gotcha.

...if you buff rev, or rather make its new spec competitive with the rest then it's going to need to be nerfed because it being competitive is too good?

...What

[Daniel Handler.4816]

@Vulf.3098 said:

@"MithranArkanere.8957" said:Making shades targetable could be something to consider. If they are not too easy to kill. So maybe we should have some sort of "damage staggering" mechanic that prevents them from losing too much health too fast, and instead delays that damage. So they are never immune to damage and all of it is dealt, but they won't die in 1 second. Shades would get this mechanic innately, and if it works, it could be a new tool to consider for new and existing skills and traits and further balance.

So, for instance, if a necromancer puts a shade covering an entire small capture point, right now there's nothing you can do about it. If you go in, they may hit you hit a hard to predict unblockable disable, and spamtons of stuff on you. But make them targetable, you could now kill it before going in. But without damage staggering, they would die too fast, too often.

This same damage staggering mechanic could be used for other summons that die too fast too easily against heavy damage burst from large groups, so they can still be damaged and killed to reduce their duration, just not too fast and easily so they at least have some effect.

Making shades targetable would make scourge useless because of how much of their traits and abilites rely on having a shade out. What needs to be nerfed on scourge is not shades but rather the trait sand savant that makes the radius really stupid in pvp.

As someone who plays a ton of renegade and Rev in general the whole summon mechanic on this spec is poorly designed and honestly making them unkillable would do absolutely nothing to help it.

It would make it usable in WvW zerg fights.

[Vulf.3098]

@Daniel Handler.4816 said:

@Vulf.3098 said:

@"MithranArkanere.8957" said:Making shades targetable could be something to consider. If they are not too easy to kill. So maybe we should have some sort of "damage staggering" mechanic that prevents them from losing too much health too fast, and instead delays that damage. So they are never immune to damage and all of it is dealt, but they won't die in 1 second. Shades would get this mechanic innately, and if it works, it could be a new tool to consider for new and existing skills and traits and further balance.

So, for instance, if a necromancer puts a shade covering an entire small capture point, right now there's nothing you can do about it. If you go in, they may hit you hit a hard to predict unblockable disable, and spamtons of stuff on you. But make them targetable, you could now kill it before going in. But without damage staggering, they would die too fast, too often.

This same damage staggering mechanic could be used for other summons that die too fast too easily against heavy damage burst from large groups, so they can still be damaged and killed to reduce their duration, just not too fast and easily so they at least have some effect.

Making shades targetable would make scourge useless because of how much of their traits and abilites rely on having a shade out. What needs to be nerfed on scourge is not shades but rather the trait sand savant that makes the radius really stupid in pvp.

As someone who plays a ton of renegade and Rev in general the whole summon mechanic on this spec is poorly designed and honestly making them unkillable would do absolutely nothing to help it.

It would make it usable in WvW zerg fights.

So renegade goes from useless in WvW to still useless. Got it.Even if they became unkillable I would still be playing Herald over this.

[Daniel Handler.4816]

@Vulf.3098 said:

@Daniel Handler.4816 said:

@Vulf.3098 said:

@"MithranArkanere.8957" said:Making shades targetable could be something to consider. If they are not too easy to kill. So maybe we should have some sort of "damage staggering" mechanic that prevents them from losing too much health too fast, and instead delays that damage. So they are never immune to damage and all of it is dealt, but they won't die in 1 second. Shades would get this mechanic innately, and if it works, it could be a new tool to consider for new and existing skills and traits and further balance.

So, for instance, if a necromancer puts a shade covering an entire small capture point, right now there's nothing you can do about it. If you go in, they may hit you hit a hard to predict unblockable disable, and spamtons of stuff on you. But make them targetable, you could now kill it before going in. But without damage staggering, they would die too fast, too often.

This same damage staggering mechanic could be used for other summons that die too fast too easily against heavy damage burst from large groups, so they can still be damaged and killed to reduce their duration, just not too fast and easily so they at least have some effect.

Making shades targetable would make scourge useless because of how much of their traits and abilites rely on having a shade out. What needs to be nerfed on scourge is not shades but rather the trait sand savant that makes the radius really stupid in pvp.

As someone who plays a ton of renegade and Rev in general the whole summon mechanic on this spec is poorly designed and honestly making them unkillable would do absolutely nothing to help it.

It would make it usable in WvW zerg fights.

So renegade goes from useless in WvW to still useless. Got it.Even if they became unkillable I would still be playing Herald over this.

The only thing herald has over renegade is tankiness and boons support. Renegade may be clunky, but it still has superior dps, heals, buffs.

[Quarktastic.1027]

@"Daniel Handler.4816" said:Why was this moved? And without any moderator notifying me?

I wrote in the OP "This poll is in the general forum because feedback from just the Revenant community is clearly not valuable enough." This poll is meant to include people who do not play Revenant but have an interest in how it's balanced.

It makes no sense from a statistical standpoint to have it here. Polls on this forum are already problematic because of self-selection. Asking in a profession subforum is just too biased.

Please move this thread back, or delete it.

I'm pretty sure the mods don't actually read more than the thread title when it's time to clean house. They see "renegade" in the title, they put it in the revenant sub.

[Daniel Handler.4816]

@JayAction.9056 said:

@MithranArkanere.8957 said:Like GW1's spirits, they have rather powerful effects. Being killable is the tradeoff.

If they were made invulnerable or just visual effects, the skills would have to be toned down to compensate.

Are you afraid for rev to have an updated spec that is as good as the other POF specs or what?

They are the like the weakest aoe skills in game, that are able to be killed and have their duration reduced to nothing, and they cost an insane amount of energy.

They aren't weak. And the energy cost isn't that important if you are doing optimal rotations. But the destructibility is a problem.

They have the same limitations as Scrapper Gyros but much less utility or customizability.

[Vulf.3098]

@Daniel Handler.4816 said:

@Vulf.3098 said:

@Daniel Handler.4816 said:

@Vulf.3098 said:

@"MithranArkanere.8957" said:Making shades targetable could be something to consider. If they are not too easy to kill. So maybe we should have some sort of "damage staggering" mechanic that prevents them from losing too much health too fast, and instead delays that damage. So they are never immune to damage and all of it is dealt, but they won't die in 1 second. Shades would get this mechanic innately, and if it works, it could be a new tool to consider for new and existing skills and traits and further balance.

So, for instance, if a necromancer puts a shade covering an entire small capture point, right now there's nothing you can do about it. If you go in, they may hit you hit a hard to predict unblockable disable, and spamtons of stuff on you. But make them targetable, you could now kill it before going in. But without damage staggering, they would die too fast, too often.

This same damage staggering mechanic could be used for other summons that die too fast too easily against heavy damage burst from large groups, so they can still be damaged and killed to reduce their duration, just not too fast and easily so they at least have some effect.

Making shades targetable would make scourge useless because of how much of their traits and abilites rely on having a shade out. What needs to be nerfed on scourge is not shades but rather the trait sand savant that makes the radius really stupid in pvp.

As someone who plays a ton of renegade and Rev in general the whole summon mechanic on this spec is poorly designed and honestly making them unkillable would do absolutely nothing to help it.

It would make it usable in WvW zerg fights.

So renegade goes from useless in WvW to still useless. Got it.Even if they became unkillable I would still be playing Herald over this.

The only thing herald has over renegade is tankiness and boons support. Renegade may be clunky, but it still has superior dps, heals, buffs.

The support is very arguable but Hammer Herald does a significant amount more dps than Renegade unless you compare it to power renegade which you do not use kalla legend anyways.

[Daniel Handler.4816]

@Quarktastic.1027 said:

@"Daniel Handler.4816" said:

Why was this moved?

And without any moderator notifying me?

I wrote in the OP "This poll is in the general forum because feedback from just the Revenant community is clearly not valuable enough." This poll is meant to include people who do not play Revenant but have an interest in how it's balanced.

It makes no sense from a statistical standpoint to have it here. Polls on this forum are already problematic because of self-selection. Asking in a profession subforum is just too biased.

Please move this thread back, or delete it.

I'm pretty sure the mods don't actually read more than the thread title when it's time to clean house. They see "renegade" in the title, they put it in the revenant sub.

Way ahead of you. That's why I also edited the thread title.

[Daniel Handler.4816]

@Vulf.3098 said:

@Daniel Handler.4816 said:

@Vulf.3098 said:

@Daniel Handler.4816 said:

@Vulf.3098 said:

@"MithranArkanere.8957" said:Making shades targetable could be something to consider. If they are not too easy to kill. So maybe we should have some sort of "damage staggering" mechanic that prevents them from losing too much health too fast, and instead delays that damage. So they are never immune to damage and all of it is dealt, but they won't die in 1 second. Shades would get this mechanic innately, and if it works, it could be a new tool to consider for new and existing skills and traits and further balance.

So, for instance, if a necromancer puts a shade covering an entire small capture point, right now there's nothing you can do about it. If you go in, they may hit you hit a hard to predict unblockable disable, and spamtons of stuff on you. But make them targetable, you could now kill it before going in. But without damage staggering, they would die too fast, too often.

This same damage staggering mechanic could be used for other summons that die too fast too easily against heavy damage burst from large groups, so they can still be damaged and killed to reduce their duration, just not too fast and easily so they at least have some effect.

Making shades targetable would make scourge useless because of how much of their traits and abilites rely on having a shade out. What needs to be nerfed on scourge is not shades but rather the trait sand savant that makes the radius really stupid in pvp.

As someone who plays a ton of renegade and Rev in general the whole summon mechanic on this spec is poorly designed and honestly making them unkillable would do absolutely nothing to help it.

It would make it usable in WvW zerg fights.

So renegade goes from useless in WvW to still useless. Got it.Even if they became unkillable I would still be playing Herald over this.

The only thing herald has over renegade is tankiness and boons support. Renegade may be clunky, but it still has superior dps, heals, buffs.

The support is very arguable but Hammer Herald does a significant amount more dps than Renegade unless you compare it to power renegade which you do not use kalla legend anyways.

Renegade the traitline has more dps and alacrity. Renegade the legend has more healing/condi damage reduction/condi dps. Trait and legend combined give a noticeable amount of protection.

Ventari/Renegades can perma alacrity and ~4,000 hps.

[Vulf.3098]

@Daniel Handler.4816 said:

@Vulf.3098 said:

@Daniel Handler.4816 said:

@Vulf.3098 said:

@Daniel Handler.4816 said:

@Vulf.3098 said:

@"MithranArkanere.8957" said:Making shades targetable could be something to consider. If they are not too easy to kill. So maybe we should have some sort of "damage staggering" mechanic that prevents them from losing too much health too fast, and instead delays that damage. So they are never immune to damage and all of it is dealt, but they won't die in 1 second. Shades would get this mechanic innately, and if it works, it could be a new tool to consider for new and existing skills and traits and further balance.

So, for instance, if a necromancer puts a shade covering an entire small capture point, right now there's nothing you can do about it. If you go in, they may hit you hit a hard to predict unblockable disable, and spamtons of stuff on you. But make them targetable, you could now kill it before going in. But without damage staggering, they would die too fast, too often.

This same damage staggering mechanic could be used for other summons that die too fast too easily against heavy damage burst from large groups, so they can still be damaged and killed to reduce their duration, just not too fast and easily so they at least have some effect.

Making shades targetable would make scourge useless because of how much of their traits and abilites rely on having a shade out. What needs to be nerfed on scourge is not shades but rather the trait sand savant that makes the radius really stupid in pvp.

As someone who plays a ton of renegade and Rev in general the whole summon mechanic on this spec is poorly designed and honestly making them unkillable would do absolutely nothing to help it.

It would make it usable in WvW zerg fights.

So renegade goes from useless in WvW to still useless. Got it.Even if they became unkillable I would still be playing Herald over this.

The only thing herald has over renegade is tankiness and boons support. Renegade may be clunky, but it still has superior dps, heals, buffs.

The support is very arguable but Hammer Herald does a significant amount more dps than Renegade unless you compare it to power renegade which you do not use kalla legend anyways.

Renegade the traitline has more dps and alacrity. Renegade the legend has more healing/condi damage reduction/condi dps. Trait and legend combined give a noticeable amount of protection.

You do not get both dps and good support with that. You take one for dps and the other for support.By going ventari you are sacrificing a ton of dps as well.

Herald still supplies a decent amount of boons while also dealing superior dps.

[Jack Skywalker.5674]

Well,in order to increase the viability of Kala in WvW and sPvP they would have to change Darkrazor's daring from an aoe daze into an aoe stun breaker,that also breaks the stun on the caster,reason being,that many of Revenant's abilities,such as sword 2 have some very nasty pathing and targeting issues (there was this one video I saw on youtube,posted in this forum by a guy who casted Darkrazor's daring and the blasted summon hit the flag pole and a critter on first 2 attacks).

An aoe targetable stun break could compete with destructable shades, but this change should be limited to sPvP and WvW where it matters most. In fractals and raids I think we could live without an aoe stun breaker and keep the aoe daze,or move the daze on Icerazor's and remove his condi stuff.....dunno.That was my 2 cents, sayonara.

[otto.5684]

@Daniel Handler.4816 said:

@Vulf.3098 said:

@Daniel Handler.4816 said:

@Vulf.3098 said:

@"MithranArkanere.8957" said:Making shades targetable could be something to consider. If they are not too easy to kill. So maybe we should have some sort of "damage staggering" mechanic that prevents them from losing too much health too fast, and instead delays that damage. So they are never immune to damage and all of it is dealt, but they won't die in 1 second. Shades would get this mechanic innately, and if it works, it could be a new tool to consider for new and existing skills and traits and further balance.

So, for instance, if a necromancer puts a shade covering an entire small capture point, right now there's nothing you can do about it. If you go in, they may hit you hit a hard to predict unblockable disable, and spamtons of stuff on you. But make them targetable, you could now kill it before going in. But without damage staggering, they would die too fast, too often.

This same damage staggering mechanic could be used for other summons that die too fast too easily against heavy damage burst from large groups, so they can still be damaged and killed to reduce their duration, just not too fast and easily so they at least have some effect.

Making shades targetable would make scourge useless because of how much of their traits and abilites rely on having a shade out. What needs to be nerfed on scourge is not shades but rather the trait sand savant that makes the radius really stupid in pvp.

As someone who plays a ton of renegade and Rev in general the whole summon mechanic on this spec is poorly designed and honestly making them unkillable would do absolutely nothing to help it.

It would make it usable in WvW zerg fights.

So renegade goes from useless in WvW to still useless. Got it.Even if they became unkillable I would still be playing Herald over this.

The only thing herald has over renegade is tankiness and boons support. Renegade may be clunky, but it still has superior dps, heals, buffs.

Dps in PvE you mean? Herald is superior heal in every game mode and herald support in PvP is significantly superior.

Renegade is nothing more than a raid only elite. Even in open world PvE it is disappointing.

[Euthymias.7984]

Just. Make. Them. Wells.

[Master Ketsu.4569]

@MithranArkanere.8957 said:Like GW1's spirits, they have rather powerful effects. Being killable is the tradeoff.

If they were made invulnerable or just visual effects, the skills would have to be toned down to compensate.

But if they ever tone them down for other balance reasons, then they should also make them invulnerable to compensate.

An intermediate solution could be giving them a damage cap. Like not being able to lose more than 33% HP per second. So while they would still be killable to shorten their effects, they would always at least last 3 seconds.

renegade spirits have shit effects though.

In PvE it's viable, but in PvP renegade is a massive joke. Even bronze players aren't going to stand in kalla while you hit them, resulting in it being a nearly useless skill unless you are playing against people who are completely braindead.

They could make the spirits unkillable and it would still be worse than using shiro/jalis or shiro/malyx for the simple reason that spirits are like comically nerfed versions of scourge shades that require more energy and do less damage. Many of us have tested renegade builds in pvp and confirmed this to be the truth. If you want to run renegade in pvp you are better off running power renegade with jalis hammer and never bothering with legendary renegade stance at all, it just wasn't designed for pvp period.

[lunaeclipse.6843]

Voting yes but i don't think they should be unkillable persae...

I think they shouldn't be CC -able, with damage reduction in PvE only (ranger spirit treatment)

What this means is that on sPvP you can't just use a single skill then ignore them (a knockback) but you can counter them by focusing them (the summons).

And, since WvW uses PvE ruling, it means that summons would be able to actually do something before getting killed.

The absolute biggest problem is not them dying, its the effects stopping and the AoE not being position when CC'd.

EDIT: poll wording is very confusing.

[otto.5684]

@Master Ketsu.4569 said:

@"MithranArkanere.8957" said:Like GW1's spirits, they have rather powerful effects. Being killable is the tradeoff.

If they were made invulnerable or just visual effects, the skills would have to be toned down to compensate.

But if they ever tone them down for other balance reasons, then they should also make them invulnerable to compensate.

An intermediate solution could be giving them a damage cap. Like not being able to lose more than 33% HP per second. So while they would still be killable to shorten their effects, they would always at least last 3 seconds.

renegade spirits have kitten effects though.

In PvE it's viable, but in PvP renegade is a massive joke. Even bronze players aren't going to stand in kalla while you hit them, resulting in it being a nearly useless skill unless you are playing against people who are completely braindead.

They could make the spirits unkillable and it would still be worse than using shiro/jalis or shiro/malyx for the simple reason that spirits are like comically nerfed versions of scourge shades that require more energy and do less damage. Many of us have tested renegade builds in pvp and confirmed this to be the truth. If you want to run renegade in pvp you are better off running power renegade with jalis hammer and never bothering with legendary renegade stance at all, it just wasn't designed for pvp period.

I think saying that Renegade is not designed for PvP gives it too much credit. I would say that renegade as a whole was slammed randomly together at the last minute. There was no "design." Compare it with FB, Weaver, mirage or any other elite really, and you can see the level of attention these elite received is light years ahead of renegade.

Just FB as an example. Fairly detailed back ground that ties into Elona. Tomes that synergies with support role in sPvP. Interesting condi design between tomes and weapons, that allows flexibility between condi or hybrid. It has meta build (over performing actually) in sPvP and a condi build that works well in PvE without 10 years ramp-up. It works good in every PvE mode, from open world PvE to raids.

Renegade? The entire elite is nothing more than condi damage modifier in PvE to the existing condi build pre-PoF. Set of none synergistic utilities and F-skills, that are only valuable in raid scenarios. In my opinion, it is without a doubt the worst of all 18 elites (Dead eye gives it some completion though).

[Orion Templar.4589]

I'm okay with the summons being targetable and taking damage. I would like to see them have stability though. I think there's merit to the argument that if summons were invulnerable they would have to be toned down, although I don't think they are too powerful as they are anyway. If they stay as they are, I'd really like to see their energy cost be brought down.

[JayAction.9056]

@otto.5684 said:

@Master Ketsu.4569 said:

@"MithranArkanere.8957" said:Like GW1's spirits, they have rather powerful effects. Being killable is the tradeoff.

If they were made invulnerable or just visual effects, the skills would have to be toned down to compensate.

But if they ever tone them down for other balance reasons, then they should also make them invulnerable to compensate.

An intermediate solution could be giving them a damage cap. Like not being able to lose more than 33% HP per second. So while they would still be killable to shorten their effects, they would always at least last 3 seconds.

renegade spirits have kitten effects though.

In PvE it's viable, but in PvP renegade is a massive joke. Even bronze players aren't going to stand in kalla while you hit them, resulting in it being a nearly useless skill unless you are playing against people who are completely braindead.

They could make the spirits unkillable and it would still be worse than using shiro/jalis or shiro/malyx for the simple reason that spirits are like comically nerfed versions of scourge shades that require more energy and do less damage. Many of us have tested renegade builds in pvp and confirmed this to be the truth. If you want to run renegade in pvp you are better off running power renegade with jalis hammer and never bothering with legendary renegade stance at all, it just wasn't designed for pvp period.

I think saying that Renegade is not designed for PvP gives it too much credit. I would say that renegade as a whole was slammed randomly together at the last minute. There was no "design." Compare it with FB, Weaver, mirage or any other elite really, and you can see the level of attention these elite received is light years ahead of renegade.

Just FB as an example. Fairly detailed back ground that ties into Elona. Tomes that synergies with support role in sPvP. Interesting condi design between tomes and weapons, that allows flexibility between condi or hybrid. It has meta build (over performing actually) in sPvP and a condi build that works well in PvE without 10 years ramp-up. It works good in every PvE mode, from open world PvE to raids.

Renegade? The entire elite is nothing more than condi damage modifier in PvE to the existing condi build pre-PoF. Set of none synergistic utilities and F-skills, that are only valuable in raid scenarios. In my opinion, it is without a doubt the worst of all 18 elites (Dead eye gives it some completion though).

Nah dead eye is actually good. I've played against people on deadeye that I guarantee could kill anybody playing rev because the mechanics are so far in their favor.

Renegade though ... You can lose to people that don't even know what all their skills do.

[Daniel Handler.4816]

@Vulf.3098 said:Herald still supplies a decent amount of boons while also dealing superior dps

@otto.5684 said:Dps in PvE you mean? Herald is superior heal in every game mode and herald support in PvP is significantly superior.

Renegade is nothing more than a raid only elite. Even in open world PvE it is disappointing.

Ignore Ventari and ignore healing power (hp):

• healing from Breakrazor + Soulcleave with 0 hp > healing from Envoy of Exuberance + perma regeneration with any hp stat
• renegade can supply decent amounts of might, protection, and regeneration
• renegade can provide 35%-56% uptime on Alacrity. herald provides 0.

The only thing Herald has is swiftness/fury. And better control in mobile situations.

[Vulf.3098]

@Daniel Handler.4816 said:

@Vulf.3098 said:Herald still supplies a decent amount of boons while also dealing superior dps

@otto.5684 said:Dps in PvE you mean? Herald is superior heal in every game mode and herald support in PvP is significantly superior.

Renegade is nothing more than a raid only elite. Even in open world PvE it is disappointing.

Ignore Ventari and ignore healing power (hp):

• healing from Breakrazor + Soulcleave with 0 hp > healing from Envoy of Exuberance + perma regeneration with any hp stat
• renegade can supply decent amounts of might, protection, and regeneration
• renegade can provide 35%-56% uptime on Alacrity. herald provides 0.

The only thing Herald has is swiftness/fury. And better control in mobile situations.

The problem here is other specs can do it a lot better so it is a waste to go a build like that in WvW when Hammer Herald is one of the best backline dps right now.In raid you have to have a specific comp for that to even be effective to begin with. There is no reason to run that when druid and chrono exist.

Edit -Another reason that build is bad in WvW/PvP is because any boon strip or corruption shuts it down while it doesn't really do anything to Herald due to how Facets function.

[Daniel Handler.4816]

@Ertrak.9506 said:And, since WvW uses PvE ruling, it means that summons would be able to actually do something before getting killed.

WvW does not use PvE damage reduction for summons.

[Daniel Handler.4816]

@Vulf.3098 said:

@Daniel Handler.4816 said:

@Vulf.3098 said:Herald still supplies a decent amount of boons while also dealing superior dps

@otto.5684 said:Dps in PvE you mean? Herald is superior heal in every game mode and herald support in PvP is significantly superior.

Renegade is nothing more than a raid only elite. Even in open world PvE it is disappointing.

Ignore Ventari and ignore healing power (hp):

• healing from Breakrazor + Soulcleave with 0 hp > healing from Envoy of Exuberance + perma regeneration with any hp stat
• renegade can supply decent amounts of might, protection, and regeneration
• renegade can provide 35%-56% uptime on Alacrity. herald provides 0.

The only thing Herald has is swiftness/fury. And better control in mobile situations.

The problem here is other specs can do it a lot better so it is a waste to go a build like that in WvW when Hammer Herald is one of the best backline dps right now.In raid you have to have a specific comp for that to even be effective to begin with. There is no reason to run that when druid and chrono exist.

Edit -Another reason that build is bad in WvW/PvP is because any boon strip or corruption shuts it down while it doesn't really do anything to Herald due to how Facets function.

They don't do it better, they do it more effectively. Rev has top-tier sustain but no multitasking. This game cares more about sustained dps than sustained utility (except boons and cleanse). So Rev has a place in WvW/Raids as a dps but never PVP. That being said, non-meta utility should still be viable.

• For instance 3 phantasmal disenchanters can easily perma more condition/boon removal than any other ability, but the devs still buffed the skill and gave it an on cast ability because they saw it wasn't being used.
• I hope the devs buff the Revs boonless utility
• Though I am a Mesmer main, when I play Rev I enjoy its non-effective specs.