Balance Issues that Must Be Addressed Next Patch

[Zintrothen.1056]

Weaver sword 2 isn't really what is doing all the healing. It's the combination of dodge rolling, water 2 and then earth 2 that does the healing. I have a whole bunch of ideas for how to improve Weaver without nerfing other professions, but I'd like to see Scourge, Mirage, Holo, and specifically Full Counter nerfed first. After that, we can see how Weaver does, and if it's somehow still underperforming, then improve full attuning, and then change earth sword 2 to be mobile.

I disagree that SB is fine. Though it's close. Full Counter still hits insanely hard for an AoE skill that is difficult not to trigger, and it still stops all damage taken for a split second (in currently PvP, a split second can hold a crap ton of damage), while applying conditions, resistance and dazing all nearby enemies. It's just too loaded. It could use a slight CD increase too, but not before nerfing at least one of the problems I mentioned above. My personal preference is change the daze from AoE to just single target, and then if that's enough, cut damage not on the triggering target in half. This should be plenty.

Regarding Druid, there are two problem traits. Stun break and full condi cleanse when activating CAF, and superspeed and stealth when leaving CAF. A stunbreak + cleansing of all conditions on a 15 second CD is far too strong. They once added 5 seconds to CAF's CD, but it's not enough. It would need to be on too long of a CD for these traits not to be OP. I'd much rather they gain resistance for a few seconds. The stunbreak is ok if the full condition cleansing is fixed. Another option is removing the stunbreak and keeping the full condi cleanse. I'm fine with whichever. Next is the stealth. You mention that stealth allows Druids to reset too easily, and that increasing the CD of longbow 3 would help against this. But remember that many Druids also run staff and can stealth using the Smokescale. This also works with sword. Slightly nerfing the amount of stealthing on one weapon won't solve the constant resetting. The stealth mechanic as a whole needs to be fixed, but that won't happen, so in the meantime, more than just longbow 3 needs nerfing. I propose removing stealth completely from the Druid trait. This will nerf Druid without nerfing base ranger, who needs stealth more than Druid. Nerfing longbow 3 will either do nothing meaningful, or will just force Druids to use staff and get plenty of stealth that way.

Other than these, I, for the most part, agree with your suggestions.

[thebatman.6250]

@Vallun.2071 said:

@JayAction.9056 said:

@Vallun.2071 said:

Revenant

Marauders herald is really good at pressuring firebrands

Playing with all pve traits and berzerker amulet, landing a full rotation into a FB won't drop them below 50%. Nobody top 250 plays rev as squish as me generally.

Balance team doesn't read this forum or so the devs said.

Pistol whip initiative cost needs to double.

Lmfao at @"Loop.8106" saying DH is in dump. Traps at their current potency still one of the easiest, cheesiest mechanics in game. DH is the only class I have tried and also succeeded in creating a spec in under 5 min that afforded me wins at legend... In season 1. When they were "bad" lmfao

God you must really be clueless. S/P is one of the weakest thief builds, it doesnt need nerfing and DH really is trash because it doesnt win 1v1s vs any meta 1v1ers (mirage, druid, spellbreaker) and is terrible for getting kills in team fights where there is tons of sustain. Rev's issue is entirely survivability not damage. I never had issues killing a firebrand 2v1 or 1v1. Your rev is literally a meme, and nobody else plays rev. I'm talking about meta changes not meme changes. sorry if this came off as a surprise to you.

Would be a surprise if their was a rev out there who knew how to kill firebrands :^). I wonder if he even exists

[JayAction.9056]

@thebatman.6250 said:

@Vallun.2071 said:

@JayAction.9056 said:

@Vallun.2071 said:

Revenant

Marauders herald is really good at pressuring firebrands

Playing with all pve traits and berzerker amulet, landing a full rotation into a FB won't drop them below 50%. Nobody top 250 plays rev as squish as me generally.

Balance team doesn't read this forum or so the devs said.

Pistol whip initiative cost needs to double.

Lmfao at @"Loop.8106" saying DH is in dump. Traps at their current potency still one of the easiest, cheesiest mechanics in game. DH is the only class I have tried and also succeeded in creating a spec in under 5 min that afforded me wins at legend... In season 1. When they were "bad" lmfao

God you must really be clueless. S/P is one of the weakest thief builds, it doesnt need nerfing and DH really is trash because it doesnt win 1v1s vs any meta 1v1ers (mirage, druid, spellbreaker) and is terrible for getting kills in team fights where there is tons of sustain. Rev's issue is entirely survivability not damage. I never had issues killing a firebrand 2v1 or 1v1. Your rev is literally a meme, and nobody else plays rev. I'm talking about meta changes not meme changes. sorry if this came off as a surprise to you.

Would be a surprise if their was a rev out there who knew how to kill firebrands :^). I wonder if he even exists

You going to play this season? How you manage to q dodge so hard with such sh** build?

Teach me so I can avoid some of these unfavorable match ups.

[thebatman.6250]

@JayAction.9056 said:

@thebatman.6250 said:

@Vallun.2071 said:

@JayAction.9056 said:

@Vallun.2071 said:

Revenant

Marauders herald is really good at pressuring firebrands

Playing with all pve traits and berzerker amulet, landing a full rotation into a FB won't drop them below 50%. Nobody top 250 plays rev as squish as me generally.

Balance team doesn't read this forum or so the devs said.

Pistol whip initiative cost needs to double.

Lmfao at @"Loop.8106" saying DH is in dump. Traps at their current potency still one of the easiest, cheesiest mechanics in game. DH is the only class I have tried and also succeeded in creating a spec in under 5 min that afforded me wins at legend... In season 1. When they were "bad" lmfao

God you must really be clueless. S/P is one of the weakest thief builds, it doesnt need nerfing and DH really is trash because it doesnt win 1v1s vs any meta 1v1ers (mirage, druid, spellbreaker) and is terrible for getting kills in team fights where there is tons of sustain. Rev's issue is entirely survivability not damage. I never had issues killing a firebrand 2v1 or 1v1. Your rev is literally a meme, and nobody else plays rev. I'm talking about meta changes not meme changes. sorry if this came off as a surprise to you.

Would be a surprise if their was a rev out there who knew how to kill firebrands :^). I wonder if he even exists

You going to play this season? How you manage to q dodge so hard with kitten build?

You mean the build that walked all over you in s9? EZbois. Also I'm rolling around with my warrior and laughing myself into hysteria because of how stupid the matches are.

[JayAction.9056]

@thebatman.6250 said:

@JayAction.9056 said:

@thebatman.6250 said:

@Vallun.2071 said:

@JayAction.9056 said:

@Vallun.2071 said:

Revenant

Marauders herald is really good at pressuring firebrands

Playing with all pve traits and berzerker amulet, landing a full rotation into a FB won't drop them below 50%. Nobody top 250 plays rev as squish as me generally.

Balance team doesn't read this forum or so the devs said.

Pistol whip initiative cost needs to double.

Lmfao at @"Loop.8106" saying DH is in dump. Traps at their current potency still one of the easiest, cheesiest mechanics in game. DH is the only class I have tried and also succeeded in creating a spec in under 5 min that afforded me wins at legend... In season 1. When they were "bad" lmfao

God you must really be clueless. S/P is one of the weakest thief builds, it doesnt need nerfing and DH really is trash because it doesnt win 1v1s vs any meta 1v1ers (mirage, druid, spellbreaker) and is terrible for getting kills in team fights where there is tons of sustain. Rev's issue is entirely survivability not damage. I never had issues killing a firebrand 2v1 or 1v1. Your rev is literally a meme, and nobody else plays rev. I'm talking about meta changes not meme changes. sorry if this came off as a surprise to you.

Would be a surprise if their was a rev out there who knew how to kill firebrands :^). I wonder if he even exists

You going to play this season? How you manage to q dodge so hard with kitten build?

You mean the build that walked all over you in s9? EZbois. Also I'm rolling around with my warrior and laughing myself into hysteria because of how stupid the matches are.

Boy you almost lost to celestial rev in ūnranked fam and you lost like the one time I saw you in ranked.

[thebatman.6250]

@JayAction.9056 said:

@thebatman.6250 said:

@JayAction.9056 said:

@thebatman.6250 said:

@Vallun.2071 said:

@JayAction.9056 said:

@Vallun.2071 said:

Revenant

Marauders herald is really good at pressuring firebrands

Playing with all pve traits and berzerker amulet, landing a full rotation into a FB won't drop them below 50%. Nobody top 250 plays rev as squish as me generally.

Balance team doesn't read this forum or so the devs said.

Pistol whip initiative cost needs to double.

Lmfao at @"Loop.8106" saying DH is in dump. Traps at their current potency still one of the easiest, cheesiest mechanics in game. DH is the only class I have tried and also succeeded in creating a spec in under 5 min that afforded me wins at legend... In season 1. When they were "bad" lmfao

God you must really be clueless. S/P is one of the weakest thief builds, it doesnt need nerfing and DH really is trash because it doesnt win 1v1s vs any meta 1v1ers (mirage, druid, spellbreaker) and is terrible for getting kills in team fights where there is tons of sustain. Rev's issue is entirely survivability not damage. I never had issues killing a firebrand 2v1 or 1v1. Your rev is literally a meme, and nobody else plays rev. I'm talking about meta changes not meme changes. sorry if this came off as a surprise to you.

Would be a surprise if their was a rev out there who knew how to kill firebrands :^). I wonder if he even exists

You going to play this season? How you manage to q dodge so hard with kitten build?

You mean the build that walked all over you in s9? EZbois. Also I'm rolling around with my warrior and laughing myself into hysteria because of how stupid the matches are.

Boy you almost lost to celestial rev in ūnranked fam and you lost like the one time I saw you in ranked.

¯_(ツ)_/¯ Can't win 100% of the time. But I can laugh my way through Season X aids with warrior

[Master Ketsu.4569]

@JayAction.9056 said:

Lmfao at @"Loop.8106" saying DH is in dump. Traps at their current potency still one of the easiest, cheesiest mechanics in game. DH is the only class I have tried and also succeeded in creating a spec in under 5 min that afforded me wins at legend... In season 1. When they were "bad" lmfao

u wot m8 DH is garbage now you only see it in very low gold where people are dumb enough to stand in traps.

Anyone who knows what they are doing will either just shoot the DH from afar because DH Bow has been nerfed to the point where every other ranged weapon beats it. Or if melee simply dodge through test of faith block any additional problem inside and beat the snot out of them.

DH also has horrible matchups to anything that lets you attack and be immune at the same time. Gets pooped on by mirage ( Carrion ineptitude while mirage mirror ) . Gets pooped on by Power Revenant ( Unrelenting Assault = deleted ). Gets pooped on by Deadeye. Gets pooped on by LB Druid. Basically only works against low ranked players who don't know the matchup.

Trappers now are like a poor mans Scourge. Being slightly more tanky is not worth the fact that you 1. Do 3x less damage 2. Have no real party support 3. Have to cast your traps at your location 4. Don't benefit from them unless you are standing in them 5. Have actual cast times and animations allowing better players to simply abuse dodges and blocks to ignore your main threats. Pretty much all the DH 12345 spammers have graduated into Scourge F1-F5 spammers.

[Guizao.4167]

@zalt.8937 said:

@Vallun.2071 said:Ranger

Druid is without a doubt the best 1v1 class in the game right now. This is due to it having so much sustain from celestial avatar and troll unguent's ability to bridge the gap between each other. This is all fine because druid needs to have a niche for it to be viable, however there should be a way to counter play their sustain and finish them. As it is now, they have stealth on leaving CA and when landing a longbow attack (current meta build for 1v1s on druid uses long bow and sword, staff doesn't pressure current 1v1 matchups hard enough but certainly makes them much harder to kill) There is arguably no way a competent ranger who rotates through their stealth and sustain CDs appropriately should die. Even in 1v2s the ranger can stealth and reset while wasting time for the outnumber. The solution to this i think is to put a much longer cast time on the longbow 3 which stealths them. As it is now it has barely any cast time or animation so there's no way to prevent them from getting into stealth, then when they are in stealth they can freely cast all of their other sustain skills and get their sustain engine running. Also troll unguent should have a longer cast time to make it more interuptable. These changes should keep ranger in its top spot of 1v1er, but make it much easier to stun lock, disrupt, and plus 1 to actually kill.

Both proposed changes would hurt core ranger and sb. I think there is another solution to this;

Simply make pets scale with player stats. If you go sustained with healing, your pet gains similar stats and wont hit like a truck, whilst the druid can staff auto and build astal. This is bad play. If one goes full glass so should the pet. In that way, a support druid will remain support and a damage oriented ranger/druid/soulbeast will remain bursty.

A lot of damge from the menders druid comes from the pet since they have stats of their own. Should this change ever go live, the pet stats scaled with mender player stats would make the pet damage mediocre and thus lowering the druids damage. Making them not as strong in 1v1 and having to put aside some sustain in order to actually be bursty. All this while NOT gimping core ranger.

Regarding celedtial shadow, its a tricky one. But in conjunction with proposed changes to pet stats it wont be so bad since a sustained druid wont be that much of a threat. And if the druid leans toward damage and burst it wont build astral very fast and wont be able to abuse celestial shadow.

That's a really nice idea. Too bad ArenaNet doesn't give a kitteen to what players suggest.

[jcbroe.4329]

@"Vallun.2071"For the Druid suggestions, I think you have the right idea, although I'm not sure touching the LB is a change that would really solve anything in the long run.

I'm sure you've noticed people are jumping at the opportunity to try and throw more ICDs on traits and rip functionality out of options they perceive to be too strong in a bubble because they don't understand how builds/classes work.

So I was just wondering if your list would be agreeable to some of my suggestions to target the overperformance of the particular Druid metabuild trait combination by reducing it's crazy resource (Astral Force) generation compared to a build that isn't running Wilderness Survival (Rugged Growth) and Troll Unguent.

Something like:

• Reduce the time that Troll Unguent pulses down to ~4 seconds from 8 seconds (rebalancing numbers as needed). This would reduce "passive" Astral Force generation as well as reducing the amount of time Druid spends with a high Healing per Second rate that lacks counter play outside of Celestial Form while also introducing a layer of skill into using Troll Unguent so it isn't so forgiveable that you can basically use it anytime outside of Celestial Form and not waste it. Thid would open up a larger window of vulnerability when combined with:
• Remove the healing component from Rugged Growth. It's never going to be a balanced option otherwise because no matter how much the healing numbers get altered, it's going to be a must have on Druid builds because of how it allows builds to stack so much Astral Force generation that it bypasses the fact that Celestial Form is a resource based mechanic. Change it to a simple additional damage reduction while Druid has protection (which would also resemble the old trait Rugged Growth replaced).

Druids balancing factor/mechanic has always been that it's a resource mechanic, and unlike previous iterations of popular Druid builds that had to actively engage in fights while making sure they distributed Regen at a time when it wouldn't got stolen/ripped to actually generate enough AF to even think about using CF on cooldown, the WS/NM trait combination has removed all of the characteristics of prior Druid builds that made them counterplayable.

If people were still running around trying to make the shout build work and the current build didn't exist, I don't think that Druid would even be on serious discussion tables for nerfs.

That's why I'm hoping that people will realize that it's a very particular trait setup and skillbar that abuses the balancing factors/mechanics of Druid, and that those should be addressed so that overperforming builds get nerfed appropriately without hurting other Druid and other Ranger specs.

[Vallun.2071]

@jcbroe.4329 said:@"Vallun.2071"For the Druid suggestions, I think you have the right idea, although I'm not sure touching the LB is a change that would really solve anything in the long run.

I'm sure you've noticed people are jumping at the opportunity to try and throw more ICDs on traits and rip functionality out of options they perceive to be too strong in a bubble because they don't understand how builds/classes work.

So I was just wondering if your list would be agreeable to some of my suggestions to target the overperformance of the particular Druid metabuild trait combination by reducing it's crazy resource (Astral Force) generation compared to a build that isn't running Wilderness Survival (Rugged Growth) and Troll Unguent.

Something like:

• Reduce the time that Troll Unguent pulses down to ~4 seconds from 8 seconds (rebalancing numbers as needed). This would reduce "passive" Astral Force generation as well as reducing the amount of time Druid spends with a high Healing per Second rate that lacks counter play outside of Celestial Form while also introducing a layer of skill into using Troll Unguent so it isn't so forgiveable that you can basically use it anytime outside of Celestial Form and not waste it. Thid would open up a larger window of vulnerability when combined with:
• Remove the healing component from Rugged Growth. It's never going to be a balanced option otherwise because no matter how much the healing numbers get altered, it's going to be a must have on Druid builds because of how it allows builds to stack so much Astral Force generation that it bypasses the fact that Celestial Form is a resource based mechanic. Change it to a simple additional damage reduction while Druid has protection (which would also resemble the old trait Rugged Growth replaced).

Druids balancing factor/mechanic has always been that it's a resource mechanic, and unlike previous iterations of popular Druid builds that had to actively engage in fights while making sure they distributed Regen at a time when it wouldn't got stolen/ripped to actually generate enough AF to even think about using CF on cooldown, the WS/NM trait combination has removed all of the characteristics of prior Druid builds that made them counterplayable.

If people were still running around trying to make the shout build work and the current build didn't exist, I don't think that Druid would even be on serious discussion tables for nerfs.

That's why I'm hoping that people will realize that it's a very particular trait setup and skillbar that abuses the balancing factors/mechanics of Druid, and that those should be addressed so that overperforming builds get nerfed appropriately without hurting other Druid and other Ranger specs.

I agree but if you do those changes to druid it probably wont beat mirage 1v1 and probably lose harder to spellbreaker. I don't want druid to be unviable I just want it to be killable. I think that having really high sustain is fine for druid, but windows of vulnerability can counter that, like I said lowering their access to stealth because it gives them too much time to free cast their sustain, If they aren't in stealth more pressure can be applied while they are trying to spam heals, and if troll unguent isn't a free and easy cast for almsot full reset levels of sustain, it could be interupted, making druids have to CHOOSE when to use it rather than just spam it off cd. I guess they could still spam it off cd and use it early in case it gets rupted, but atleast u could counter that by saving your damage for after the healing wears off and then interupting the next one. But as it is right now troll unguent is uninterruptable by reaction, only by prediction.

[Aktium.9506]

@Vallun.2071 said:A 2 or 3 second ICD on dhuumfire and the torment applied by shade skillsThere was one actually. It was removed in the December 12th patch.

[Arheundel.6451]

@"Vallun.2071" said:While many people are distressed that a balance patch did not come out sooner, many haven't really made any constructive remarks on what specifically should be changed.

I'm going to try to detail some of the specific mechanics of meta builds that we see all the time that lead to a meta that is uninteractive, that has very little counterplay or skill involved.

Mesmer

The meta mirage build specifically involves combining two skills with no animation, jaunt and shatters (clones are good animations, but often the illusionary persona is good enough) to do most of its pressure. Putting some torch burns on top of this combo can do near 1 shots on persons without condi cleanse. The issue is not that they have 1 shot burst potential or that they have enough constant pressure to bait out condi cleanses. It is that most of this has no animation for a class that also has another great mechanic of the mirage cloak.

So what is the fix for this? Traited torch burns could be lowered from a potential of 7-8 to like 5-6. Landing big burst combos should be rewarding still, but not to the level they are especially when mesmer has access to so many and so constant of cover condis. The internal cd between using stocks of jaunt (not the stock recharge) can be raised and remove 1 stack of confusion from it so that it is used more as a utility skill than a constant burst.

Engineer - The main problem of interactivity with engineer is the timing of the damage tied to their dodge roll traits. If you compare holosmith to every other dodging trait in the game (daredevil, strength warrior, arcane ele) their effects happen some time after the initial dodge animation. Holo's damage dodge trait happens immediately as they dodge, and can add up to around 8k damage if the positioning is right for the other trait. For one of the highest damaging dodges in the game, it has too little counterplay. Either put the damage component at the end of the dodge (but showing an animation at the beginning of the dodge) or lower the damage done significantly. I prefer changing the timing of the dodge because this allows you to pressure a holo by standing on top of them and then moving in the direction opposite of the way they dodge to avoid the damage. Also possibly make the mines that drop from the explosives trait dodge take half a second to deploy fully.

Necromancer

Scourge has tons of corrupts on top of its insane damage output. I think that their damage should remain somewhat the same since they are significantly squishier than reaper (and I would propose some nerfs to firebrand which enables scourge to be so strong). That being said, one of the major problems with scourge is that corruptions are much stronger than boon rip because the conditions they apply are very powerful. I would tone down the durations of ALL conditions that are applied by corrupted boons, this is also more in line with the condition duration nerf a few patches ago, that didn't address corrupts.

Also scourge has very little animation on their F skills. I like that there are combos for necro enabled because they are instant cast, but perhaps give less reward for spamming the shade skills at once. A 2 or 3 second ICD on dhuumfire and the torment applied by shade skills would promote using shade skills for both their supportive AND their damaging aspects rather than just spamming them all at once when you are sure that they will hit. This also wouldn't reduce the potential overall damage scourges do, it would just promote more interactive play by making the scourge think about what skill they use at the time, and allow the opponent some time to decide whether they can handle the pressure instead of being overloaded all at once.

Guardian

Firebrand is by far the best support build to ever exist. Combined with scourge it is the most effective 2v2 comp, and by itself it provides the most for a pure support role. It makes outnumbered situations survivable with the amount of condi cleanse and defensive boon uptime, which greatly reduces the viability of any dps class that doesnt provide tons of damage and corrupts or boon removal. The only counterplays to firebrand plus a scourge (note that firebrand is not very good without scourge because it doesnt have enough killing power and vice versa scourges don't have enough survivability) seem to be: play three point comp and rotate around it and make it be in awkward situations where it needs to kill things (but is obviously unable to help much in that regard), focus it with multiple dps classes, or just play firebrand scourge yourself. The first method requires a massive outplay rotationally and a strategy of "completely avoid this person" which is very uninteractive. The second method is extremely risky for little reward because it means outnumbering with a support class or bringing an inferior 2v2 comp to try to beat a scourge firebrand, and the third is not very fun or interactive for the 4 people forced into the 2v2 as fb scourge vs fb scourge. So how do we overturn the firebrand + scourge combo without making both of the classes terrible individually? Give scourge some more defense and less offense and give firebrand more offense and less defense. Out of all my changes proposed this is the one i'm least confident about. I don't really agree with lowering scourge damage that much or making firebrands be more of a bruiser role. However the issue is that firebrand scourge is not very fun and interactive to play, but will exist because it is the best. So somehow make it not the best or make it more fun to play as and against.

Thief

The main meta counter for thieves right now is the S/D core build which can deal with a lot of situations, much moreso than D/P daredevil. However it also seems to be the best plus 1 against necros and guards. A lot of this is due to the pure output of larcenous strike when in an outnumbering situation. The 7k crits while also being unblockable and boon ripping create very easy and thoughtless decisions. Of course there is much more counter play to larcenous strike than all of the other classes mentioned above, however precasting flanking strike and then stealing into larcenous still exists for bursts of 5 boon rip plus 9k damage. This is backstab levels of damage on a much more spammable kit. I would nerf it by about 8% both against booned and boonless targets. Otherwise thief is fine.

Ranger

Druid is without a doubt the best 1v1 class in the game right now. This is due to it having so much sustain from celestial avatar and troll unguent's ability to bridge the gap between each other. This is all fine because druid needs to have a niche for it to be viable, however there should be a way to counter play their sustain and finish them. As it is now, they have stealth on leaving CA and when landing a longbow attack (current meta build for 1v1s on druid uses long bow and sword, staff doesn't pressure current 1v1 matchups hard enough but certainly makes them much harder to kill) There is arguably no way a competent ranger who rotates through their stealth and sustain CDs appropriately should die. Even in 1v2s the ranger can stealth and reset while wasting time for the outnumber. The solution to this i think is to put a much longer cast time on the longbow 3 which stealths them. As it is now it has barely any cast time or animation so there's no way to prevent them from getting into stealth, then when they are in stealth they can freely cast all of their other sustain skills and get their sustain engine running. Also troll unguent should have a longer cast time to make it more interuptable. These changes should keep ranger in its top spot of 1v1er, but make it much easier to stun lock, disrupt, and plus 1 to actually kill.

Elementalist

Weaver is in somewhat of a questionable spot with no real role. It doesn't 1v1 better than druid, but it also doesn't do more damage than a holo in a skirmishing role, and doesn't provide that much sustain to its team. The meta is much too role-defined for a jack of all trades class to work well. However, with the mentioned nerfs to other classes it should be in a better spot. I don't think ele really needs any buffs specifically. Tempest could use some buffs to close the distance between it and firebrand in a sustain role. Stability and resistance is one thing that firebrands have that make them above tempests in support. Let tempests have something that guardians don't. Auras do not do much in the way of supporting other than the healing they give. One possibility is to make tempest a more aggressive support and make auras (just add this baseline in one of the tempest minor traits) increase the offensive stats of players as well. For example, 150 power and precision and condition damage while under your auras or might has an increased effect while under your auras. I'm really terrible at weaver so i won't propose any buffs specifically, but I'm sure someone else who wants weaver to be balanced and not overpowered can propose some.

However, the sword weaver's sustain build with healing power has similarly uninteractive gameplay to a ranger. It of course has less pressure and less kiting abitlity, but it could become a really strong bruiser with constant pressure and on- node-aoe. My only change would be to reduce the amount of healing that the sword 2 in water does, which heals them for a lot more than I think is necessary to sustain 1v1s, but heals them enough to survive outnumbered situations they shouldn't survive.

Revenant

Marauders herald is really good at pressuring firebrands, but really bad at surviving scourges. The changes to offhand sword were good but there needs to be more self sustain for a class that requires to be melee to mid range for most of its damage. Compared to other classes, it has very low condition cleanse. I would improve the conditions cleansed by the invoking legend swap from 1 to 2, then increase the cast time of staff 4 so you can get your cleanse when you need it and not take too much extra pressure while trying to cleanse. Otherwise, no other buffs should be necessary if the above nerfs are made.

Warrior

Pretty balanced imo. high dps that allows it to be one of the only counters to druid in 1v1, but lacks the presence of a holo or rev in larger fights. I wouldn't change anything.

Pretty terrible suggestions overall...

-no significant nerfs except ele...like what?-warrior is definitely not balanced...the tremendous passive sustain coupled with over stacked spellbreaker full counter...how this can be considered balanced?-1 stack of burn and confusion less won't suddenly make mirage that much less broken-8% dmg reduction on s/d thief....8% of say 8k dmg is like 640 dmg...why even bother with the nerf?

• add mine dmg to the end of the dodge for engineer...and? they will still go holomode pressing 1 to 5 while you have to kite away for your life to avoid insta death and ridiculous amount of CC on low CD

Basically your "changes" are less than a slap on the wrist for the OP specs atm, something like this would be more a symbolic patch for the sake of adding some notes on game update page than a meta/balancing patch

There is too much low effort=high reward action in this game and your suggestions do nothing to change that...reason why you're being upvoted

[Trigr.6481]

@Vallun.2071

That's kinda a crappy example imo. Playing devils advocate any power class can do 1 shot potential for anyone who didn't have a dodge available, suggesting nerfs because of said fact isn't enough. Personally I think the entire mechanic of stealth is the main cause of the problems at hand, mind wrack and cry of frustration are to blame as well"or any shatter ability that's instant cast + the ability to deal damage". What makes the mesmer burst intimidating is that you pop torch 4, wait till the burn is about to activate and combine it with shatters and jaunt. If they were to change anything, mind wrack and cry of frustration needs to always have illusions available in order for the shatter to be available, so there's your active tell. When it comes to stealth, well, it's honestly screwed in this game, there's not enough counterplay around it. When it comes to Jaunt, it's either you take away the damage and increase the range and decrease the cooldown by alout, or you give it a obvious tell when you're about to teleport. Anything instant cast is never good that deals damage, regardless of the source.

Countless

[jcbroe.4329]

@Vallun.2071 said:

@jcbroe.4329 said:@Vallun.2071For the Druid suggestions, I think you have the right idea, although I'm not sure touching the LB is a change that would really solve anything in the long run.

I'm sure you've noticed people are jumping at the opportunity to try and throw more ICDs on traits and rip functionality out of options they perceive to be too strong in a bubble because they don't understand how builds/classes work.

So I was just wondering if your list would be agreeable to some of my suggestions to target the overperformance of the particular Druid metabuild trait combination by reducing it's crazy resource (Astral Force) generation compared to a build that isn't running Wilderness Survival (Rugged Growth) and Troll Unguent.

Something like:

• Reduce the time that Troll Unguent pulses down to ~4 seconds from 8 seconds (rebalancing numbers as needed). This would reduce "passive" Astral Force generation as well as reducing the amount of time Druid spends with a high Healing per Second rate that lacks counter play outside of Celestial Form while also introducing a layer of skill into using Troll Unguent so it isn't so forgiveable that you can basically use it anytime outside of Celestial Form and not waste it. Thid would open up a larger window of vulnerability when combined with:
• Remove the healing component from Rugged Growth. It's never going to be a balanced option otherwise because no matter how much the healing numbers get altered, it's going to be a must have on Druid builds because of how it allows builds to stack so much Astral Force generation that it bypasses the fact that Celestial Form is a resource based mechanic. Change it to a simple additional damage reduction while Druid has protection (which would also resemble the old trait Rugged Growth replaced).

Druids balancing factor/mechanic has always been that it's a resource mechanic, and unlike previous iterations of popular Druid builds that had to actively engage in fights while making sure they distributed Regen at a time when it wouldn't got stolen/ripped to actually generate enough AF to even think about using CF on cooldown, the WS/NM trait combination has removed all of the characteristics of prior Druid builds that made them counterplayable.

If people were still running around trying to make the shout build work and the current build didn't exist, I don't think that Druid would even be on serious discussion tables for nerfs.

That's why I'm hoping that people will realize that it's a very particular trait setup and skillbar that abuses the balancing factors/mechanics of Druid, and that those should be addressed so that overperforming builds get nerfed appropriately without hurting other Druid and other Ranger specs.

I agree but if you do those changes to druid it probably wont beat mirage 1v1 and probably lose harder to spellbreaker. I don't want druid to be unviable I just want it to be killable. I think that having really high sustain is fine for druid, but windows of vulnerability can counter that, like I said lowering their access to stealth because it gives them too much time to free cast their sustain, If they aren't in stealth more pressure can be applied while they are trying to spam heals, and if troll unguent isn't a free and easy cast for almsot full reset levels of sustain, it could be interupted, making druids have to CHOOSE when to use it rather than just spam it off cd. I guess they could still spam it off cd and use it early in case it gets rupted, but atleast u could counter that by saving your damage for after the healing wears off and then interupting the next one. But as it is right now troll unguent is uninterruptable by reaction, only by prediction.

Yeah you're right, what I suggested is more heavy handed.

It's been pretty trying to witness all the ways in which people are trying to gut Druid in their suggestions, without understanding how it all works. It's like watching people try to kill a cockroach with a hand grenade.

But anyhow, I suppose ultimately it's wherever the balance in totality lands. I'm agreeable either way, I just had wanted to run the balance approach I had in mind through a less biased discussion area, so thanks for that.

[Arheundel.6451]

@jcbroe.4329 said:@"Vallun.2071"For the Druid suggestions, I think you have the right idea, although I'm not sure touching the LB is a change that would really solve anything in the long run.

I'm sure you've noticed people are jumping at the opportunity to try and throw more ICDs on traits and rip functionality out of options they perceive to be too strong in a bubble because they don't understand how builds/classes work.

So I was just wondering if your list would be agreeable to some of my suggestions to target the overperformance of the particular Druid metabuild trait combination by reducing it's crazy resource (Astral Force) generation compared to a build that isn't running Wilderness Survival (Rugged Growth) and Troll Unguent.

Something like:

• Reduce the time that Troll Unguent pulses down to ~4 seconds from 8 seconds (rebalancing numbers as needed). This would reduce "passive" Astral Force generation as well as reducing the amount of time Druid spends with a high Healing per Second rate that lacks counter play outside of Celestial Form while also introducing a layer of skill into using Troll Unguent so it isn't so forgiveable that you can basically use it anytime outside of Celestial Form and not waste it. Thid would open up a larger window of vulnerability when combined with:
• Remove the healing component from Rugged Growth. It's never going to be a balanced option otherwise because no matter how much the healing numbers get altered, it's going to be a must have on Druid builds because of how it allows builds to stack so much Astral Force generation that it bypasses the fact that Celestial Form is a resource based mechanic. Change it to a simple additional damage reduction while Druid has protection (which would also resemble the old trait Rugged Growth replaced).

Druids balancing factor/mechanic has always been that it's a resource mechanic, and unlike previous iterations of popular Druid builds that had to actively engage in fights while making sure they distributed Regen at a time when it wouldn't got stolen/ripped to actually generate enough AF to even think about using CF on cooldown, the WS/NM trait combination has removed all of the characteristics of prior Druid builds that made them counterplayable.

If people were still running around trying to make the shout build work and the current build didn't exist, I don't think that Druid would even be on serious discussion tables for nerfs.

That's why I'm hoping that people will realize that it's a very particular trait setup and skillbar that abuses the balancing factors/mechanics of Druid, and that those should be addressed so that overperforming builds get nerfed appropriately without hurting other Druid and other Ranger specs.

Lol what?These changes would do less than 0 to druids while hardcore nerf the core ranger/soulbeast, while in god's name Anet should nerf an entire class around a single specialization ? According to you, we should nerf core skills to , apparently , nerf druid..meanwhile everybody else including future specializations collapse entirely..I don't think anet will agree with that line of thinking

[jcbroe.4329]

@Arheundel.6451 said:

@jcbroe.4329 said:@"Vallun.2071"For the Druid suggestions, I think you have the right idea, although I'm not sure touching the LB is a change that would really solve anything in the long run.

I'm sure you've noticed people are jumping at the opportunity to try and throw more ICDs on traits and rip functionality out of options they perceive to be too strong in a bubble because they don't understand how builds/classes work.

So I was just wondering if your list would be agreeable to some of my suggestions to target the overperformance of the particular Druid metabuild trait combination by reducing it's crazy resource (Astral Force) generation compared to a build that isn't running Wilderness Survival (Rugged Growth) and Troll Unguent.

Something like:

• Reduce the time that Troll Unguent pulses down to ~4 seconds from 8 seconds (rebalancing numbers as needed). This would reduce "passive" Astral Force generation as well as reducing the amount of time Druid spends with a high Healing per Second rate that lacks counter play outside of Celestial Form while also introducing a layer of skill into using Troll Unguent so it isn't so forgiveable that you can basically use it anytime outside of Celestial Form and not waste it. Thid would open up a larger window of vulnerability when combined with:
• Remove the healing component from Rugged Growth. It's never going to be a balanced option otherwise because no matter how much the healing numbers get altered, it's going to be a must have on Druid builds because of how it allows builds to stack so much Astral Force generation that it bypasses the fact that Celestial Form is a resource based mechanic. Change it to a simple additional damage reduction while Druid has protection (which would also resemble the old trait Rugged Growth replaced).

Druids balancing factor/mechanic has always been that it's a resource mechanic, and unlike previous iterations of popular Druid builds that had to actively engage in fights while making sure they distributed Regen at a time when it wouldn't got stolen/ripped to actually generate enough AF to even think about using CF on cooldown, the WS/NM trait combination has removed all of the characteristics of prior Druid builds that made them counterplayable.

If people were still running around trying to make the shout build work and the current build didn't exist, I don't think that Druid would even be on serious discussion tables for nerfs.

That's why I'm hoping that people will realize that it's a very particular trait setup and skillbar that abuses the balancing factors/mechanics of Druid, and that those should be addressed so that overperforming builds get nerfed appropriately without hurting other Druid and other Ranger specs.

Lol what?These changes would do less than 0 to druids while hardcore nerf the core ranger/soulbeast, while in god's name Anet should nerf an entire class around a single specialization ? According to you, we should nerf core skills to , apparently , nerf druid..meanwhile everybody else including future specializations collapse entirely..I don't think anet will agree with that line of thinking

The fact that you don't understand that nothing I suggested is a nerf; they're changes that effect their mechanical interaction with Druid without changing how strong they are for Core/Soulbeast, is case and point that you should stop speaking about balance, and really stop speaking to me, or anybody in general, because you don't have the caliber of skill to be a valid voice of reason or information.

Do me a favor if you're going to troll every balance discussion thread. Given these changes:

• Reduced Troll Unguent duration to 4 seconds. Increased Healing per tick to base 2124.
• Rugged Growth: New functionality; protection has increased effectiveness on you and your pet (40-50%)

Explain what you think this nerfs into the ground or destroys about anything at all.

[Arheundel.6451]

@jcbroe.4329 said:

@Arheundel.6451 said:

@jcbroe.4329 said:@"Vallun.2071"For the Druid suggestions, I think you have the right idea, although I'm not sure touching the LB is a change that would really solve anything in the long run.

I'm sure you've noticed people are jumping at the opportunity to try and throw more ICDs on traits and rip functionality out of options they perceive to be too strong in a bubble because they don't understand how builds/classes work.

So I was just wondering if your list would be agreeable to some of my suggestions to target the overperformance of the particular Druid metabuild trait combination by reducing it's crazy resource (Astral Force) generation compared to a build that isn't running Wilderness Survival (Rugged Growth) and Troll Unguent.

Something like:

• Reduce the time that Troll Unguent pulses down to ~4 seconds from 8 seconds (rebalancing numbers as needed). This would reduce "passive" Astral Force generation as well as reducing the amount of time Druid spends with a high Healing per Second rate that lacks counter play outside of Celestial Form while also introducing a layer of skill into using Troll Unguent so it isn't so forgiveable that you can basically use it anytime outside of Celestial Form and not waste it. Thid would open up a larger window of vulnerability when combined with:
• Remove the healing component from Rugged Growth. It's never going to be a balanced option otherwise because no matter how much the healing numbers get altered, it's going to be a must have on Druid builds because of how it allows builds to stack so much Astral Force generation that it bypasses the fact that Celestial Form is a resource based mechanic. Change it to a simple additional damage reduction while Druid has protection (which would also resemble the old trait Rugged Growth replaced).

Druids balancing factor/mechanic has always been that it's a resource mechanic, and unlike previous iterations of popular Druid builds that had to actively engage in fights while making sure they distributed Regen at a time when it wouldn't got stolen/ripped to actually generate enough AF to even think about using CF on cooldown, the WS/NM trait combination has removed all of the characteristics of prior Druid builds that made them counterplayable.

If people were still running around trying to make the shout build work and the current build didn't exist, I don't think that Druid would even be on serious discussion tables for nerfs.

That's why I'm hoping that people will realize that it's a very particular trait setup and skillbar that abuses the balancing factors/mechanics of Druid, and that those should be addressed so that overperforming builds get nerfed appropriately without hurting other Druid and other Ranger specs.

Lol what?These changes would do less than 0 to druids while hardcore nerf the core ranger/soulbeast, while in god's name Anet should nerf an entire class around a single specialization ? According to you, we should nerf core skills to , apparently , nerf druid..meanwhile everybody else including future specializations collapse entirely..I don't think anet will agree with that line of thinking

The fact that you don't understand that nothing I suggested is a nerf; they're changes that effect their mechanical interaction with Druid without changing how strong they are for Core/Soulbeast is case and point that you should stop speaking about balance, and really stop speaking to me, or anybody in general, because you don't have the caliber of skill to be a valid voice of reason or information.

Do me a favor if you're going to troll every balance discussion thread. Given these changes:

• Reduced Troll Unguent duration to 4 seconds. Increased Healing per tick to base 2124.
• Rugged Growth: New functionality; protection has increased effectiveness on you and your pet (40-50%)

Explain what you think this nerfs into the ground or destroys about anything at all.

People having different opinion is no trolling , I won't be here listing what I did in pvp neither I will list pointless titles and cha cha.... this is a forum for gw2 players and you are in no position to tell anybody what to say...

-Soulbeast doesn't need dmg reduction as it got plenty already, what it needs is more healing sustain and your change would do absolutely nothing to druids as they have plenty of ways to charge CF from pvp to wvw and accordingly to your "calculations" a NM druid charge CF slower than a WS druid.....are you serious?...wait yes you are ...-_-A NM druid been meta for years...and all of sudden you came here saying that druid before was more counterable than now..like do we even play the same game?I have a better idea : we nerf druid traitline so that it becomes a better healer , we remove traits like Ancient seed and Celestial shadow and give some form of it to soulbeast that at the contrary of druid won't be able to support allies and at the same time duel any class

-Troll Unguent....you forgot to add the part where you propose to increase cast time..like what? 3/4s cast is plenty of time already for insta cast interrupts available to almost anybody

Druid should be a team support spec like tempest or firebrand...it shouldn't be a duellist on top, that's what soulbeast should be and presumably reducing the access to CF..won't make AT teams suddenly swap druid for soulbeast or make it become meta

[jcbroe.4329]

@Arheundel.6451 said:

@jcbroe.4329 said:

@Arheundel.6451 said:

@jcbroe.4329 said:@"Vallun.2071"For the Druid suggestions, I think you have the right idea, although I'm not sure touching the LB is a change that would really solve anything in the long run.

I'm sure you've noticed people are jumping at the opportunity to try and throw more ICDs on traits and rip functionality out of options they perceive to be too strong in a bubble because they don't understand how builds/classes work.

So I was just wondering if your list would be agreeable to some of my suggestions to target the overperformance of the particular Druid metabuild trait combination by reducing it's crazy resource (Astral Force) generation compared to a build that isn't running Wilderness Survival (Rugged Growth) and Troll Unguent.

Something like:

• Reduce the time that Troll Unguent pulses down to ~4 seconds from 8 seconds (rebalancing numbers as needed). This would reduce "passive" Astral Force generation as well as reducing the amount of time Druid spends with a high Healing per Second rate that lacks counter play outside of Celestial Form while also introducing a layer of skill into using Troll Unguent so it isn't so forgiveable that you can basically use it anytime outside of Celestial Form and not waste it. Thid would open up a larger window of vulnerability when combined with:
• Remove the healing component from Rugged Growth. It's never going to be a balanced option otherwise because no matter how much the healing numbers get altered, it's going to be a must have on Druid builds because of how it allows builds to stack so much Astral Force generation that it bypasses the fact that Celestial Form is a resource based mechanic. Change it to a simple additional damage reduction while Druid has protection (which would also resemble the old trait Rugged Growth replaced).

Druids balancing factor/mechanic has always been that it's a resource mechanic, and unlike previous iterations of popular Druid builds that had to actively engage in fights while making sure they distributed Regen at a time when it wouldn't got stolen/ripped to actually generate enough AF to even think about using CF on cooldown, the WS/NM trait combination has removed all of the characteristics of prior Druid builds that made them counterplayable.

If people were still running around trying to make the shout build work and the current build didn't exist, I don't think that Druid would even be on serious discussion tables for nerfs.

That's why I'm hoping that people will realize that it's a very particular trait setup and skillbar that abuses the balancing factors/mechanics of Druid, and that those should be addressed so that overperforming builds get nerfed appropriately without hurting other Druid and other Ranger specs.

Lol what?These changes would do less than 0 to druids while hardcore nerf the core ranger/soulbeast, while in god's name Anet should nerf an entire class around a single specialization ? According to you, we should nerf core skills to , apparently , nerf druid..meanwhile everybody else including future specializations collapse entirely..I don't think anet will agree with that line of thinking

The fact that you don't understand that nothing I suggested is a nerf; they're changes that effect their mechanical interaction with Druid without changing how strong they are for Core/Soulbeast is case and point that you should stop speaking about balance, and really stop speaking to me, or anybody in general, because you don't have the caliber of skill to be a valid voice of reason or information.

Do me a favor if you're going to troll every balance discussion thread. Given these changes:

• Reduced Troll Unguent duration to 4 seconds. Increased Healing per tick to base 2124.
• Rugged Growth: New functionality; protection has increased effectiveness on you and your pet (40-50%)

Explain what you think this nerfs into the ground or destroys about anything at all.

People having different opinion is no trolling , I won't be here listing what I did in pvp neither I will list pointless titles and cha cha.... this is a forum for gw2 players and you are in no position to tell anybody what to say...

-Soulbeast doesn't need dmg reduction as it got plenty already, what it needs is more healing sustain and your change would do absolutely nothing to druids as they have plenty of ways to charge CF from pvp to wvw and accordingly to your "calculations" a NM druid charge CF slower than a WS druid.....are you serious?...wait yes you are ...-_-A NM druid been meta for years...and all of sudden you came here saying that druid before was more counterable than now..like do we even play the same game?I have a better idea : we nerf druid traitline so that it becomes a better healer , we remove traits like Ancient seed and Celestial shadow and give some form of it to soulbeast that at the contrary of druid won't be able to support allies and at the same time duel any class

-Troll Unguent....

you forgot to add the part where you propose to increase cast time

..like what? 3/4s cast is plenty of time already for insta cast interrupts available to almost anybody

Druid should be a team support spec like tempest or firebrand...it shouldn't be a duellist on top, that's what soulbeast should be and presumably reducing the access to CF..won't make AT teams suddenly swap druid for soulbeast or make it become meta

You're incoherently rambling and you said nothing that made sense or had any validity. If you don't understand how Regen + Dolyak Runes fills Astral Force slower than Troll Unguent + Regen + Rugged Growth + SoR passive, then logic and words are a waste to use with you.

Also I didn't suggest a cast time increase, that was somebody else. Reading comprehension, or just general comprehension issues, as usual.

[Vag.5682]

Agree with most points. However scourge nerf shouldn't be in flat damage but rather in corruption , f2 should have a cap. Overall scourge damage is very low compare to dps classes, also a damage nerf will require a buff in survivability or mobility.

Mesmer burst needs a flat nerf it has too much of everything.

Thief damage needs a nerf too in s/d build it has too much mobility and too much damage.

engineer is paper , worst class in survivability a nerf in damage needs a counter buff in that department

warrior nerfs are over the top , hes underperform massively , I think a survivability buff is required.

Overall damage should be reduced across the boards

[Jack Skywalker.5674]

@Vallun.2071 said:

Revenant

Marauders herald is really good at pressuring firebrands, but really bad at surviving scourges. The changes to offhand sword were good but there needs to be more self sustain for a class that requires to be melee to mid range for most of its damage. Compared to other classes, it has very low condition cleanse. I would improve the conditions cleansed by the invoking legend swap from 1 to 2, then increase the cast time of staff 4 so you can get your cleanse when you need it and not take too much extra pressure while trying to cleanse. Otherwise, no other buffs should be necessary if the above nerfs are made.

The delay of the patch is a blessing in discuise for some Revenant players as it gives the time to test out Kala/Jalis with hp bruiser vs scourges. Hopefully we can get some video tutorials from Loboling.5293 on how this play style is supposed to work + some actual prof that it actualy works.

Outside of this,we can only hope for buffs to Hammer in sPvP so we can try and make some ranged build to kitten up the Scourge's kittie. Shortbow is a lost cause for the Revenant subforum - an untested/poorly tested weapon that was supposed to be used only with Shiro and Malyx, no adjustable 7 shot, no mechanics to link bleed with torment are all the woes I can remember.

[ukuni.8745]

I really think they should have left that dodge mine trait on engineer as it used to be but just removed the cooldown, it had great interactivity with the various combo fields engi used.

Incasr your wondering it used to turn the dodge bomb into a blast finisher which i thought was amazing but then they added a 10 second icd to which made it nearly impossible to use effectivly with anything in the middle of a fight and then they changed it to dodge mines which is yea you all know.

[Arheundel.6451]

@jcbroe.4329 said:

@Arheundel.6451 said:

@jcbroe.4329 said:

@Arheundel.6451 said:

@jcbroe.4329 said:@"Vallun.2071"For the Druid suggestions, I think you have the right idea, although I'm not sure touching the LB is a change that would really solve anything in the long run.

I'm sure you've noticed people are jumping at the opportunity to try and throw more ICDs on traits and rip functionality out of options they perceive to be too strong in a bubble because they don't understand how builds/classes work.

So I was just wondering if your list would be agreeable to some of my suggestions to target the overperformance of the particular Druid metabuild trait combination by reducing it's crazy resource (Astral Force) generation compared to a build that isn't running Wilderness Survival (Rugged Growth) and Troll Unguent.

Something like:

• Reduce the time that Troll Unguent pulses down to ~4 seconds from 8 seconds (rebalancing numbers as needed). This would reduce "passive" Astral Force generation as well as reducing the amount of time Druid spends with a high Healing per Second rate that lacks counter play outside of Celestial Form while also introducing a layer of skill into using Troll Unguent so it isn't so forgiveable that you can basically use it anytime outside of Celestial Form and not waste it. Thid would open up a larger window of vulnerability when combined with:
• Remove the healing component from Rugged Growth. It's never going to be a balanced option otherwise because no matter how much the healing numbers get altered, it's going to be a must have on Druid builds because of how it allows builds to stack so much Astral Force generation that it bypasses the fact that Celestial Form is a resource based mechanic. Change it to a simple additional damage reduction while Druid has protection (which would also resemble the old trait Rugged Growth replaced).

Druids balancing factor/mechanic has always been that it's a resource mechanic, and unlike previous iterations of popular Druid builds that had to actively engage in fights while making sure they distributed Regen at a time when it wouldn't got stolen/ripped to actually generate enough AF to even think about using CF on cooldown, the WS/NM trait combination has removed all of the characteristics of prior Druid builds that made them counterplayable.

If people were still running around trying to make the shout build work and the current build didn't exist, I don't think that Druid would even be on serious discussion tables for nerfs.

That's why I'm hoping that people will realize that it's a very particular trait setup and skillbar that abuses the balancing factors/mechanics of Druid, and that those should be addressed so that overperforming builds get nerfed appropriately without hurting other Druid and other Ranger specs.

Lol what?These changes would do less than 0 to druids while hardcore nerf the core ranger/soulbeast, while in god's name Anet should nerf an entire class around a single specialization ? According to you, we should nerf core skills to , apparently , nerf druid..meanwhile everybody else including future specializations collapse entirely..I don't think anet will agree with that line of thinking

The fact that you don't understand that nothing I suggested is a nerf; they're changes that effect their mechanical interaction with Druid without changing how strong they are for Core/Soulbeast is case and point that you should stop speaking about balance, and really stop speaking to me, or anybody in general, because you don't have the caliber of skill to be a valid voice of reason or information.

Do me a favor if you're going to troll every balance discussion thread. Given these changes:

• Reduced Troll Unguent duration to 4 seconds. Increased Healing per tick to base 2124.
• Rugged Growth: New functionality; protection has increased effectiveness on you and your pet (40-50%)

Explain what you think this nerfs into the ground or destroys about anything at all.

People having different opinion is no trolling , I won't be here listing what I did in pvp neither I will list pointless titles and cha cha.... this is a forum for gw2 players and you are in no position to tell anybody what to say...

-Soulbeast doesn't need dmg reduction as it got plenty already, what it needs is more healing sustain and your change would do absolutely nothing to druids as they have plenty of ways to charge CF from pvp to wvw and accordingly to your "calculations" a NM druid charge CF slower than a WS druid.....are you serious?...wait yes you are ...-_-A NM druid been meta for years...and all of sudden you came here saying that druid before was more counterable than now..like do we even play the same game?I have a better idea : we nerf druid traitline so that it becomes a better healer , we remove traits like Ancient seed and Celestial shadow and give some form of it to soulbeast that at the contrary of druid won't be able to support allies and at the same time duel any class

-Troll Unguent....

you forgot to add the part where you propose to increase cast time

..like what? 3/4s cast is plenty of time already for insta cast interrupts available to almost anybody

Druid should be a team support spec like tempest or firebrand...it shouldn't be a duellist on top, that's what soulbeast should be and presumably reducing the access to CF..won't make AT teams suddenly swap druid for soulbeast or make it become meta

You're incoherently rambling and you said nothing that made sense or had any validity. If you don't understand how Regen + Dolyak Runes fills Astral Force slower than Troll Unguent + Regen + Rugged Growth + SoR passive, then logic and words are a waste to use with you.

Also I didn't suggest a cast time increase, that was somebody else. Reading comprehension, or just general comprehension issues, as usual.

I'd love nothing more than get rid of all gimmicks in this game, all the training wheels...all the #metoo zero to hero builds....if GW2 was anything even remotely close to its predecessor...we wouldn't be here to have this discussion...there would be no reason for me ; sadly this is not the case so I will limit myself by saying that druid should be just a healer in the same vein of tempest and firebrand as such they should completely remove access to gimmicks like celestial shadow and ancient seeds if not why nerf to the ground ele for years with a gazillion nerfs ? They nerfed tempest so much by gutting dmg, sustain when it wasn't even remotely close to be a duellist like druid..they nerfed that support spec so much than now those who bought HoT must buy PoF to remain semi-relevant and yet here I am discussing why a healer spec should not be a duellist spec at the same time.Did it ever occur to you that Anet always go for the elite spec trait line when it comes to nerfs? Yeah I am very curious now to see how anet will handle druids after all the nerfs to tempest...berseker....reaper, they didn't nerf core traits ( well in ele case they nerfed core traits and the elite because anet loves ele don't they?!) they nerfed the elite trait lines

[Khaliel.3918]

@Vallun.2071 said:thats just the difference between someone who comes in here with a personal agenda, and one who comes in with a wordly agenda, you guys are all looking for your class to be op. I don't give a kitten if my class is op, I played thief when it was considered unplayable right after rev came out. I want the game to be good, not my class.

if i could choose betwen world peace or people in the forum/anet having this mentality, we would have the best pvp game in the world

[Lazze.9870]

@Vallun.2071 said:Ranger

Druid is without a doubt the best 1v1 class in the game right now. This is due to it having so much sustain from celestial avatar and troll unguent's ability to bridge the gap between each other. This is all fine because druid needs to have a niche for it to be viable, however there should be a way to counter play their sustain and finish them. As it is now, they have stealth on leaving CA and when landing a longbow attack (current meta build for 1v1s on druid uses long bow and sword, staff doesn't pressure current 1v1 matchups hard enough but certainly makes them much harder to kill) There is arguably no way a competent ranger who rotates through their stealth and sustain CDs appropriately should die. Even in 1v2s the ranger can stealth and reset while wasting time for the outnumber. The solution to this i think is to put a much longer cast time on the longbow 3 which stealths them. As it is now it has barely any cast time or animation so there's no way to prevent them from getting into stealth, then when they are in stealth they can freely cast all of their other sustain skills and get their sustain engine running. Also troll unguent should have a longer cast time to make it more interuptable. These changes should keep ranger in its top spot of 1v1er, but make it much easier to stun lock, disrupt, and plus 1 to actually kill.

Your solution to nerf druid is to nerf to essential core ranger abilities.What a horrible idea.

[Lazze.9870]

@jcbroe.4329 said:@"Vallun.2071"For the Druid suggestions, I think you have the right idea, although I'm not sure touching the LB is a change that would really solve anything in the long run.

I'm sure you've noticed people are jumping at the opportunity to try and throw more ICDs on traits and rip functionality out of options they perceive to be too strong in a bubble because they don't understand how builds/classes work.

So I was just wondering if your list would be agreeable to some of my suggestions to target the overperformance of the particular Druid metabuild trait combination by reducing it's crazy resource (Astral Force) generation compared to a build that isn't running Wilderness Survival (Rugged Growth) and Troll Unguent.

Something like:

• Reduce the time that Troll Unguent pulses down to ~4 seconds from 8 seconds (rebalancing numbers as needed). This would reduce "passive" Astral Force generation as well as reducing the amount of time Druid spends with a high Healing per Second rate that lacks counter play outside of Celestial Form while also introducing a layer of skill into using Troll Unguent so it isn't so forgiveable that you can basically use it anytime outside of Celestial Form and not waste it. Thid would open up a larger window of vulnerability when combined with:
• Remove the healing component from Rugged Growth. It's never going to be a balanced option otherwise because no matter how much the healing numbers get altered, it's going to be a must have on Druid builds because of how it allows builds to stack so much Astral Force generation that it bypasses the fact that Celestial Form is a resource based mechanic. Change it to a simple additional damage reduction while Druid has protection (which would also resemble the old trait Rugged Growth replaced).

Druids balancing factor/mechanic has always been that it's a resource mechanic, and unlike previous iterations of popular Druid builds that had to actively engage in fights while making sure they distributed Regen at a time when it wouldn't got stolen/ripped to actually generate enough AF to even think about using CF on cooldown, the WS/NM trait combination has removed all of the characteristics of prior Druid builds that made them counterplayable.

If people were still running around trying to make the shout build work and the current build didn't exist, I don't think that Druid would even be on serious discussion tables for nerfs.

That's why I'm hoping that people will realize that it's a very particular trait setup and skillbar that abuses the balancing factors/mechanics of Druid, and that those should be addressed so that overperforming builds get nerfed appropriately without hurting other Druid and other Ranger specs.

Except you are hurting core ranger and other spec. Regen abilities have much higher values for, lets say, a power ranger build with longbow than what a trait that would improve the effect of protection would have. Ranger isn't a class designed to take hits, parts of its core kit revolve around lots of access to regen (and different regen sources that overlap) and evade on weapon skills.

Make both Druid Clareity and Celestial Shadow master traits. Move the glyph trait to adept and give that seed thing back its two condition cleanses.